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posted by n1 on Friday August 29 2014, @08:33PM   Printer-friendly
from the but-not-with-an-uzi dept.

The accidental death of an instructor at an Arizona shooting range, killed while teaching a 9-year-old girl to fire a fully automatic Uzi, has touched off a debate among those who enjoy and teach the use of firearms: What’s the proper way to teach children about guns? The key, is training says gun instructor Butch Jensen. A gun is a tool, and like any tool — be it a circular saw or a kitchen knife — requires proper instruction. “It was clear that she was a beginner, and you don’t start a beginner in that type of firearm,” says Jensen, who watched a widely circulated video of the fatal lesson. “If you want to learn how to run Indy cars, you don’t start at Indy.” Blake Carrington, who serves in the Air Force, has taught his 10-year-old daughter to shoot a .22 rifle. “I personally would never give my child a fully automatic weapon,” says Carrington. “I feel terrible for that little girl having to live with that.”

Shooting instructors said in interviews that in some cases, a 9-year-old may be able to handle an Uzi, even though it has a tricky recoil and can fire hundreds of rounds per minute. The child would have to weigh enough to handle the recoil and have some experience with guns. The parent and instructor would have to jointly determine that the child is mature and skilled enough to operate the firearm safely. Tom, who practiced with an M1 Garand Rifle, says he shoots for sport and to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights. “I don’t think you should keep kids away from firearms. This shouldn’t keep people from taking their kids to the range.” Still, Tom says he could not fathom why adults allowed the 9-year-old girl to shoot an Uzi. “I don’t know what they were thinking. My personal opinion is someone under 15 years of age playing with a submachine weapon is not a good idea.”

 
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by GungnirSniper on Friday August 29 2014, @09:34PM

    by GungnirSniper (1671) on Friday August 29 2014, @09:34PM (#87382) Journal

    Letting people make decisions for themselves and their children is dangerous because they might pick differently from ourselves.

    Starting Score:    1  point
    Moderation   +3  
       Insightful=2, Interesting=1, Total=3
    Extra 'Insightful' Modifier   0  
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   5  
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by SlimmPickens on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:35AM

    by SlimmPickens (1056) on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:35AM (#87400)

    I suggest it's dangerous because your gun culture is totally out of control. Do you realise the USA has over 50% of the worlds guns? I can't even remember the last time a shooting went through our newspapers that wasn't in the USA. The second last one happened because someone thought it was OK to give an uzi to a nine year old girl that couldn't shoot.

    I'll "pick" staying down here where there's an almost zero chance of getting shot over whatever it is you're getting out of it.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by opinionated_science on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:51AM

      by opinionated_science (4031) on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:51AM (#87409)

      have you SEEN the guns the US Govt has....?

      The Founding fathers knew what they were doing , when the 2nd amendment was included.

    • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:08AM

      by SlimmPickens (1056) on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:08AM (#87413)

      Flamebait? It's an honest and well reasoned opinion.

      I care deeply about truth, and finding truth requires not being emotionally attached to ones beliefs.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:25AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:25AM (#87420) Homepage Journal

        Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

        http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf [harvard.edu]

        I strongly disagree with your opinion - but I wouldn't have modded it "flamebait". But, there is no moderation available that indicates disagreement, so mods use "flamebait" instead.

        Personally, I agree with TFA. My first firearm was a .22 single shot. I taught my sons the same way, with a .22 single shot. When I thought they were ready for it, I got them .50 caliber muzzle loaders. In my world, a bolt action rifle that holds five (or more) rounds in the magazine is a weapon for a maturing teen. A semi-automatic should be reserved for young adults. Fully automatic weapons? Those are CERTAINLY NOT the weapon of choice for a novice. Novices should be discouraged from even touching one. I'd rather that novices not even be allowed in the same room with a fully automatic weapon.

        I strongly believe in my second amendment rights, but I believe even more strongly in responsibility.

        --
        The only reason for not believing in it (Marxism) is that it doesn't work. - Thomas Sowell
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by SlimmPickens on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:47AM

          by SlimmPickens (1056) on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:47AM (#87429)

          Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

          I'm a firm believer in this in general, but obviously that ends somewhere. Few thinks it's OK for Syria to have a nuclear weapon, for example. Where the 'line' is depends on how responsible society is. But what's going on the USA has gone far beyond a reasonable philosophical debate. One poster above tried to tell me that I would understand if I only knew just how big the governments guns were. Fix the gun problem with guns!

          But, there is no moderation available that indicates disagreement,

          I'm pretty sure in that case they're supposed to tell me why I'm wrong, as you did, not moderate.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by mhajicek on Saturday August 30 2014, @03:21AM

            by mhajicek (51) on Saturday August 30 2014, @03:21AM (#87448)

            Far beyond debate? I think that's debatable. Do us a favor and look up some statistics. What are the comparative chances of dying by gun vs. by car? Since it's many times more likely that you'll die by car in the US, you should logically be arguing against our out of control car culture.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 2) by arslan on Saturday August 30 2014, @04:09AM

              by arslan (3462) on Saturday August 30 2014, @04:09AM (#87457)

              False logic, you can almost always find another stat to eclipse your own. If you really want to be clear on what that stat actually means, why don't you compare the ratio of death by cars vs death by guns in a country with a ban on guns with a similar population size or some size factor and interpolate it and compare that ratio to the U.S.?

              I'm not against gun ownership in the U.S. given its history, I used to be, but having understand and heard a lot of reasons from actual level headed people with unprejudiced reasons on the matter I can see why the U.S. is unique enough to have this right.

              I do however think the government should have tighter controls though to prevent events like this, essentially controls to prevent people who do not possess the adequate mental or physical faculties to easily access firearms. What that is I really don't know, the U.S. have to work it out, but unfortunately both size of the fence is so polarized that its no where near any sort of sane objective discussion

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @05:15AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @05:15AM (#87474)

              > What are the comparative chances of dying by gun vs. by car?

              Motor vehicle traffic deaths

                      Number of deaths: 33,783
                      Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.8

              All firearm deaths

                      Number of deaths: 32,351
                      Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.4

              Source: CDC FastStats [cdc.gov]

              > Since it's many times more likely that you'll die by car in the US, you should logically be arguing against our out of control car culture.

              How many car deaths are intentional?

              • (Score: 1) by richtopia on Sunday August 31 2014, @01:37AM

                by richtopia (3160) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 31 2014, @01:37AM (#87718) Homepage Journal

                We should have stricter licensing on automobiles! Driving in other countries where people obey traffic laws and ways of the road is refreshing.

                Here are some example nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate):

                annual deaths / 100 000 cars:
                USA 13.6
                Germany 6.9
                Finland 6.6
                Chile 5.8
                Slovenia 10.5
                Poland 17.6
                New Zealand 10.3
                Greece 13.8
                Estonia 13.1
                Czech Republic 13
                Belize 16.4

                I actually had a hard time finding comparable states to the USA, it seems that most nations are either below 10 or quite high.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 05 2014, @02:04PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 05 2014, @02:04PM (#89822)

                incorrect..,,dont use "fast stats" if you want people to actually know truth or have an actual discussion....im sad you were modded insightful because parrits are not insightful, they just hace an agenda....even if its just to get a cracker

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Tork on Saturday August 30 2014, @07:54AM

              by Tork (3914) on Saturday August 30 2014, @07:54AM (#87496)
              If I die by car it'll be by accident. If I die by gun, it won't be.
              --
              Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by art guerrilla on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:05PM

              by art guerrilla (3082) on Saturday August 30 2014, @12:05PM (#87534)

              um, i'd be a teeny tiny bit more impressed by those stats, if it wasn't for the fact that a HUGE percentage of us spend a fair amount of time in our cars EVERY DAMN DAY, multiple times a day, among many hundreds/thousands doing the same... regularly handling, shooting, transporting guns on a consistent, daily schedule ? VERY few of us, what less than 1% messing with them 1% of the time... NOTHING compared to how much we use cars...
              IF we were handling guns the same amount, in the same careless manner as we drive, as many times a day, with a million other gun equipped idiots out there, do you have any doubt what the 'stats' would be ? ? ?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:29AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @01:29AM (#87422)

      > I suggest it's dangerous because your gun culture is totally out of control.

      It is the drugs. The vast majority of non-suicide shootings are by criminals and of criminals. All the white folks with guns in the house as "protection" are just scared of black people. Legalize drugs and 95% of the non-suicide shootings will go away in a decade or so (criminals will still be criminals but business will be a lot less lucrative so it takes a while for them wind down).

      I don't have a good answer for suicides and they make up half of the firearms deaths in the US.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @05:11AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 30 2014, @05:11AM (#87472)

      I don't disagree that gun culture is out of control in the USA, but there is a good reason for it; anti-gun culture is also out of control, and the US government is bordering on tyranny.

      Not sure i agree that 50% of the world's guns are in the USA. Maybe according to some idiot US or UN statistics, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the world's guns aren't traceable or accounted for.

    • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Saturday August 30 2014, @08:16AM

      by SlimmPickens (1056) on Saturday August 30 2014, @08:16AM (#87498)

      Troll my ass, only the meek could think that. Go forth and burn!

      Just to be clear, I'm not against owning guns, I grew up on a farm. Just pointing out that there's just a bit more to it than OP's claim that it's just a difference of opinion. Personally, I think you should do something about it.

      I was wrong about 50% of the guns being in the US, it's just that 50% of them are owned by the US. http://www.thewire.com/politics/2012/12/guns-in-america-statistics/60071/ [thewire.com]

  • (Score: 1) by dpp on Saturday August 30 2014, @07:24PM

    by dpp (3579) on Saturday August 30 2014, @07:24PM (#87635)

    Except when the "pick differently" endangers either/both the children or the people around them.
    IMHO - The parents of this 9yo girl recklessly endangered not only their daughter but others at the shooting range.

    Re: Why?
    The only conclusion I can come to, after watching the video, is it was a *thrill*/*kick* for the parents (probably your typical "gun nuts") to see their little girl firing an assault rifle.
    I come to that conclusion because they were their video taping her doing it.
    "Teaching her"? I doubt it - why teach your daughter to shoot a fully automatic assault rifle, otherwise illegal and she'd never be able to own/fire. Also, do you think if they were "teaching" her to use another possibly dangerous tool (as others here comment using for example), say a table saw or reciprocating saw - they'd be sitting back having someone show her how and video tape her?
    No, I think it was a sick ego-trip gone wrong. They've most likely damaged that girl for life, and recklessly caused the death of the man working at the range...all for their thrill/kicks of (most likely) readying a youtube video to show off their daughter and gun-nut fantasies.

    Re: "pick differently"?
    Parents can, in most cases, "pick differently" all they like, however not when it comes to recklessly endangering the child or others around them.