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Breaking News: Russia Seizes Power in Crimea
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< nobse> bleh... last night I had a dream... someone NMU'ed vim...
nightmare
-- in #debian-devel
(Score: 5, Insightful) by pixeldyne on Saturday March 01 2014, @10:49PM
send a sternly worded letter of protest.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday March 01 2014, @11:02PM
It was only a matter of time until Russia decided that the U.S. geopolitical meddling and encroachment towards the East was enough. How Mother Russia handled Syria was a stern warning to the U.S.: Back the fuck off.
While I doubt this will start World War III, recent events have suggested that the U.S. (my beloved country) is rapidly losing its moral authority to act as the World Policeman spouting a bunch of bullshit about freedom and liberty as it implements neo-colonialism abroad and a Stasi-esque police state ashore -- all run by a shadow-government who can tell its own congressmen to fuck off. Instead of staying credible and remaining a shining beacon of liberty, our leadership looked at China and Russia and thought, "Hey, we can do that too!"
Thanks to one of the recent Snowden leaks, the surveillance state has been directly tied to the phrase "false flag" and at home many Americans who have lost everything as a result of 9/11's fallout are starting to question whether all this was, and is, necessary.
I predict that We the People will embrace isolationism as more revelations are brought to light and more and more people reach the breaking point -- assuming they can take action beyond signing meaningless E-petitions and bitching on Facebook and Reddit.
To all the people who will say, "The U.S. has the most powerful military and will crush anybody America Fuck Yeah," No. The mistake was in gutting the middle-class. The people might just have bought into all of it as long as they still had jobs and could keep their houses and fishing boats -- but you got greedy, and now your own people are itchin' to burn and impale your asses with torches and pitchforks.
Whew. Rant Over.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by gallondr00nk on Saturday March 01 2014, @11:51PM
Iraq and Afghanistan really were like Vietnam. It wasn't until the US pounded a few third world militas into the ground in the 80's that it really got over just how badly they'd fucked up there - intervening in a civil war to try and stop a domino effect that was entirely imaginary.
Weren't both the later conflicts about the same thing? About trying to stop an enemy that the US said would destroy it. About complete irrational fear of imaginary or grossly exaggerated enemies?
I remember when the Afghanistan conflict started, and the TV news was showing these sketches of Al-Quaeda compounds in the mountains, with their own power stations and munitions stores, automatic turrets and cannons and secret bunkers built into the mountains. It was like a Bond villain hideout, and everyone seemed to believe it. They said they were based in the mountains to the north.
You know what was there? Some old munitions from the Soviet invasion. No bunkers, no hidden volcano hideouts. Just caves.
There are few things as dangerous as a nation state that believes its own bullshit and delusions. Sadly, I suspect this is true of Russia as well.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by davester666 on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:25AM
Russia similarly rampaged through Afghanistan not that long ago, with similar results...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by NovelUserName on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:51AM
I had a very similar gut response: The US no longer has the moral standing to make constructive objections. Instead any US objection simply appears self serving and acts to antagonize the participants further. As a US citizen the mess we've made for ourselves sickens me.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by M. Baranczak on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:15AM
Forget moral standing, the US has no power to do anything about Ukraine. Trade sanctions wouldn't work, because the US doesn't do that much trading with Russia in the first place. Military action (US or NATO) is right out, because nobody wants to start World War 3. Let's not even talk about the UN.
But still, things could be worse: we could have McCain as president right now. He'd have no good options, just like Obama, but he'd be too stubborn to realize it.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by pixeldyne on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:57AM
It's a shame because when the fit hits the shan like in this situation many Europeans would clamor for U.S. intervention.
What if the Baltic states od Latvia, Lithuania and Eatonia are next? Or perhaps it'll be Poland's turn to be "liberated" by the Russians?
When they came for Chechnya we did nothing, when they came for Georgia, we kept mostly quiet. Well, you know how the rest of this (paraphrased) quote goes.
Oh well, at least we have "peace in our time".
(Score: 1) by quacking duck on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:48AM
I am not exactly a fan of US international politics and policies, but the Libya crisis and to a less extent Syria highlighted the ridiculous hypocrisy in what I'd consider left-wing protesters.
Well FFS WTF did you lot expect when you demanded action to relieve the human suffering being caused by the regime?? If diplomacy and strongly worded letters and sanctions were effective you wouldn't be demanding US "do something" in the first place!
Now, maybe I'm wrong and #1 and #3 is mostly driven by those on the right, but if the left are demanding no interference in foreign affairs whatsoever then they aren't demonstrating the compassion for others that the left typically professes as a trait.
(Score: 1) by citizenr on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:34AM
Thank you, but I DONT want to be "liberated" by US troops.
We have NATO for that in EU.
Sadly, like the second poster already joked, all NATO will do is a stern letter. UN already finished deliberating and decided to do dick about the whole thing.
We need blue helmets on Ukrainian ground _right now_.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:32PM
Given that Russia is a veto power in the UN, you'll not see any UN action in that matter.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:39PM
The problem is that Ukraine in 2010 bent over and said "we're your bitch", which kinda makes it harder to protect them - the enemy is already within - and very well established at that.
Maybe it's time to slice the country into the old Kievan Rus territories in the centre, north, and west, from the more Russian-influenced territories in the south east? Support for the various factions (and majority language spoken) divides remarkably well along that line. Guarantee freedom of movement, and a choice of either nationality to those born either side of the line and for one generation.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1) by DNied on Sunday March 02 2014, @09:39AM
That would fit as the new name for the USA.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:17AM
[This comment posted as AC so as to not undo moderation.]
Good to see you here, Ethanol-fueled!
I happen to agree completely. Extra so with this line:
"Thanks to one of the recent Snowden leaks, the surveillance state has been directly tied to the phrase "false flag"..."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @06:58AM
That doesn't work, you know. The only thing posting AC does is eliminate the warning.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Refugee from beyond on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:06AM
That's why you post reply in a separate private window with no cookies.
Instantly better soylentnews: replace background on article and comment titles with #973131.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by ivan on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:24AM
1. US and Europe finance radical Ukrainian Nazi antiRussian groups for 20 years.
2. Nazi groups commence Coup d'etat during a wave of legitimate protests (mainly) against government corruption and (less so) for Europe integration.
3. The transition government is formed, it includes known Nazi figures. General prosecutor is Nazi. One of the first laws passed, is to revoke the status of Russian language as official language in Russian-speaking regions. Some Nazi thugs urge to expell Russians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkiSPMpTp_I [youtube.com]
4. US and Europe are quickly to support the new-formed government. No objections to Nazis being parts of it are made.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-polit ics-of-anti-semitism-west-upholds-neo-nazi-repress ion-of-ukraines-jewish-community/5370790 [globalresearch.ca]
5. Civilian people are being shot dead, stabbed tortured and burned for not being in favor of Nazis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkAkcMceNg [youtube.com]
6. People in Russian-speaking regions quickly realize: they either revolt, or will be crushed and terrorized for the decades to come. Well-organized Sevastopol (of Crimea) is first to denounce new government and select new local leader. Russian Federation is silent for two days, until it is clearly understood, that Crimean people will fight for the independence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atm0W5wA2y4 [youtube.com]
7. Russia supports Crimea, first verbally, then militarily.
8. Cities of Donetsk, Kharkov, Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk and many more hold large rallies against new government of Ukraine and in support of Sevastopol. Pro-Coup Nazi thugs are being expelled from government buildings, pro-Coup officials stripped of their positions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp0BHGleDMw [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncRMVOL5ZeY [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvoznIsUuc [youtube.com]
9. Ukrainian government urges organized crime groups, Army and Nazi thugs to suppress revolts in Kharkov, Dnipropetrovsk and other cities, also sends troops to fight in Crimea.
10. ???
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:27AM
[This comment posted as AC so as to not undo moderation.]
Glad to see a well-referenced counterpoint!
Note to fellow moderators: if the type of site you want is one where certain views, coincidentally unpopular in western M.S.M., are to be suppressed and/or labeled 'Troll', then you're going to lose out on a number of things, including this registered user whose karma is currently maxed out at 50.
(Score: 1) by tibman on Sunday March 02 2014, @07:54AM
It probably had to do with calling west Ukraine a bunch of Nazis. Oh, and also saying that the US and Europe supported Nazis. Because that makes sense.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:51AM
Where did you read West Ukraine == Nazis? Or, maybe, it is not in your shill playbook to actually use provided sources?
(Score: 1) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @10:10AM
Seems to be a post that is all about half-truths. The author's entire premise is to say that everybody in the revolution are nazis. For example, "Civilian people are being shot dead, stabbed tortured and burned for not being in favor of Nazis." and a link to a video clip about some rogue assholes shooting people.
Also, "General prosecutor is Nazi" - Oleh Makhnitsky, the general prosecutor is a member of the nationalist Svoboda party, but being a nationalist does not make someone a nazi.
It sure looks like the nazi thing has been widely overblown - the Svoboda party is only 10% of the population and while I am sure they have some extremists - as a convenient talking point out of Moscow. This wapo article [washingtonpost.com] does a better job of explaining what's going on than any dubiously cited post screaming "nazi, nazi, nazi!"
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @10:43AM
Man, the only way to be in touch with reality is to do your own research. No single article from Western (or Eastern, for that matter) paid and bought media can provide you with truthful view of such complex issue.
It is called propaganda. If you don't do your own research you become a slave to it.
(Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:43PM
He's getting flamed out because he is badly confusing the PR campaign of the moment with the geopolitical realities and long term shifts.
The relevant problem is the Russians lost their empire about a generation ago and are a little butthurt about the whole topic. Meanwhile, for reasons bordering on insanity, as per some Snowden info the USA is getting WAY too involved in the deep internal politics of a border state to the point of near outright intervention. Needless to say the Russians are pissed and rightly so. It would be like the US response if the Russians more or less took over and started attempting to actively control a Canadian political party. The whole foreign policy goal is insane, and we have no input on it or control over it.
So we get a comment all about the leaves of the trees instead of looking at the forest. The PR campaign is currently oriented around appealing to old people and those of a certain religious affiliation by Nazi comparisons. Which looks comical to folks outside those groups, talk about a desperate over-reaching. For comparison, our own neo-con lunatics are further right than the people we're talking about. If anything this situation is "what would happen if moderate neo-cons took over". Admittedly would not be a good situation, but only a lunatic would start making ridiculous claims... worst case scenario is it would look like Utah or something.
The most recent Dan Carlin podcast more or less predicted this outcome. There is also a meta-issue where "the public" is getting tired of the GWOT lies after about a decade, now its time for some new lies, a new PR campaign. A second cold war would be nearly ideal. The Dan Carlin prediction is the next step will be thawing relations between Russia and China, and chilling relations between China and the USA. This will not be entirely discouraged by the USA... so we've sold China lots of our debt, now just stiffing an ally would not be cool, but once they're the axis of evil, sure, default on their worthless bonds. Meanwhile a lot of mfgr jobs come back to a USA deep in the 2nd great depression, AND the military industrial complex gets new orders for un-needed jet airplanes and tanks and stuff. The Chinese don't much care because they already know our debt is worthless but need to save face and having their "enemy" default saves face for them pretty well. The Russians are happy because the Chinese would love to trade raw resources (oil, all of freaking siberia, etc) for some mfgr'd goods and the like. I'm not sure who, if anyone, doesn't want this scenario?
As Carlin said, something along the lines of "only Nixon could go to China" is playing out in the mid 2010s as "only Putin could go to China". So enjoy cheap Chinese garbage at walmart while you can, its going away very soon.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by AsteroidMining on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:52PM
Yeah, if you read the US press, you won't see too many mentions of the Svoboda party [salon.com], much less the Ukrainische Hilfspolizei and the Hiwi's and connections both of these groups had with the the Bandera OUN and, thus, with the current-day Svobodites.
There is a complicated history here. We in the States ignore it at our peril.
(Score: 1) by Boxzy on Saturday March 01 2014, @10:50PM
The political unrest in certain areas of the world have made this sort of thing inevitable for a few years now.
Go green, Go Soylent.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Appalbarry on Saturday March 01 2014, @10:59PM
Gee whiz - who would have thought that only days after the O-Games wrapped up* the Putin government would step in and stomp on Ukraine?
This is going to get very ugly, very fast.
* Yes, the paralympics are still to come, but really the media has left town, so they don't really enter into this discussion.
(Score: 1) by istartedi on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:52AM
Well, there's still the Paralymipcs but Putin strikes me as the kind of guy who doesn't care. Also, skiing on one ski is hard enough without it digging into a foot of slush. Unless they get a cold snap soon, it seems like the weather would make Winter sports questionable. Of course an emerging war doesn't help much either...
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @07:06AM
Well, it makes more contestants for the Paralympics.
(Score: 4, Informative) by tftp on Saturday March 01 2014, @11:40PM
The fog of war is dense, and it's not clear who is doing what in Crimea. Russia had troops there already, and bases, so one can't call it "invasion" until those troops start leaving the bases and doing something specific. All the reports so far simply talk about unidentified armed people who act politely but take control over strategic locations (such as airports.) One could guess that those are Russian troops; but they can be also locals, or Ukrainian troops in a sterile uniform.
One can be certain, though, that nothing will be done militarily without support of significant portion of the population. Nobody is going to shoot anyone. Ukraine has no army at this point, because the leadership is nonexistent, and each base, each commanding officer are for themselves. This army will not fight, and they will not be shot at either.
The leaders of Maidan have issued some very scary statements that outdo some of what Hitler said. Those statements have been heard in the East Ukraine. The threat of pogroms is real; there are groups of armed young men that left Maidan and now drive around Ukraine, terrorizing the population. The police is suppressed and does nothing. These armed gangs are the only power at the moment, and if they choose to kill someone there is nobody to track them down. The rule of law is no more in quite a few areas. The population does not like that, since population *always* wants peace and stability. Only the minority wants war, because they can make money and gain power while their disposable pawns kill each other. It is well understood; people are not idiots these days.
This means that population of all Ukraine wants stability. Not all areas have sufficient affinity to Russia; but many in the East do have that, and so it appears logical that they will want Russian troops to become peacekeepers while the official Ukraine is scrambling to construct the new legitimate government (it requires elections.) Chances are that Crimea and maybe neighboring lands are fed up with the endless parade of weak, corrupt Ukrainian governments who cannot do anything useful but steal everything that is not welded down. Russia may be not a shining beacon in this aspect, but it is definitely better. There are also other advantages in affiliation with Russia, such as a much larger job market. An independent Ukraine cannot offer any such advantages; it will not even join the EU for a long time (until its economy improves, because EU does not need millions of hungry migrants.) But Ukraine's economy will not improve if things don't change - and they are not changing; what we are observing is just more of the same; only the faces on top changed.
(Score: 1) by M. Baranczak on Saturday March 01 2014, @11:53PM
All the reports so far simply talk about unidentified armed people
Oh, bullshit. It's obvious to everyone that they're Russian soldiers.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tftp on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:16AM
Oh, bullshit. It's obvious to everyone that they're Russian soldiers.
It may be so. But it's not that important yet. Besides, if you and I put some BDUs or ACUs on, take our AR-15s, and start playing soldiers, would that mean that we are soldiers of US Army? Crimea is a well established area, with plenty of military bases, uniforms, and equipment. Possibilities for many-layered political operations are endless.
However indeed it is at this point valuable for Russia to demonstrate the ability to use force without an overt use of force. Ideally, the force will never be needed.
(Score: 2, Informative) by pixeldyne on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:48AM
If you and your 10000 friends put on the uniforms and cross the border to Mexico in humvees and Apaxhe helicopters then yes, people might think you could be the army. As far as I know, private ownership of modern Russian combat uniforms, BTRs and Mi helicopters in Ukraine is not very widespread.
(Score: 1) by Reziac on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:38AM
Very interesting, thanks for your perspective.
Ukraine was once known as "the breadbasket of Russia" -- what might that have to do with it, if anything?
BTW my college roommates' family escaped from Soviet Ukraine, back in the day.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2, Informative) by tftp on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:53AM
Ukraine was once known as "the breadbasket of Russia" -- what might that have to do with it, if anything?
Nothing, as far as I can tell (but I am not well versed in economics of the area.)
The issues at hand are: a hostile state on the border; a creeping lawlessness, like Chechnya of 1990's; genocide against ethnic Russians[1]; and extension of NATO.
[1] I will try to find the link since Angry Jesus asked for it below.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:42AM
The leaders of Maidan have issued some very scary statements that outdo some of what Hitler said. Those statements have been heard in the East Ukraine. The threat of pogroms is real
That's an interesting statement. It mirrors what Putin has said about the revolution. [en.ria.ru]
It's also interesting that you recently cited a russian proverb. [soylentnews.org]
I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but it seems like you do.
(Score: 3, Informative) by tftp on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:28AM
I must confess that I haven't read anything that Putin said recently. I read other sources, those that are free to say what they want.
Here is one link [livejournal.com]. The story is about one Yuri Mikhalchishin. Here is my translation of some of that text:
Another link [www.rg.ru]:
One more link [livejournal.com], quoting Tyagnibok:
Now tell me that those guys are not devout followers of Adolf. All this is done on Twitter and Facebook and the Web, in Ukrainian, so most Western people have no access to those pearls of wisdom.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:51AM
As far as I can tell, none of those are officially issued statements by "the leaders of Maidan" they are just people spouting off on a website.
There will always be assholes willing to say outrageous things online (and off) and taking a failure to censor as an endorsement (especially in the middle of all the tumult and distraction of a revolution) does not seem reasonable.
As for Mikhalchishin and Svoboda, seems like they've got problems but are far from the whole picture. [khpg.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by tftp on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:28AM
As far as I can tell, none of those are officially issued statements by "the leaders of Maidan" they are just people spouting off on a website.
That's what German Jews told each other in 1930s ... The "official" documents on the Final Solution [wikipedia.org] were not discovered until 1947. Waiting for the official memo did no good then, and it will do no good now. The only memo one gets is in form of the arrest warrant.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:44AM
I think that's a disingenuous argument. Given the number of people who will surely be killed in a conflict with Russia it seems out of proportion. You might as well argue that the existence of stormfront or the comments section on youtube or that of any american newspaper's website proves the US is secretly planning on conducting pogroms too.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by tftp on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:10AM
Well, it's hard to predict the future. The best you can do is to look into history and learn from that. If someone tells you that your house is on fire, it's a pretty serious concern. You are not likely to debate the personality of the messenger, or to calculate the chances that he may be mistaken. You act immediately. The same applies to the danger of nazism. The problem is that this nationalist thinking is endemic in Western Ukraine. Bandera did not rise out of nowhere. He had followers then, and he has followers now. His portraits are on display in many cities, and many forums are filled with his ideology. Are the fears overblown? Let's hope so.
With regard to "the number of people who will surely be killed in a conflict with Russia," my prediction is that nobody will be killed, and the whole conflict amounts to players placing their figures into cells into squares of a chess board. Chess figures don't shoot at each other, and don't get damaged. If a stronger figure shows up and makes a move, the defeated figure yields and steps away, to the outside of the board.
The reason why I think this will be the case is simply because there is nothing to fight for. The territorial divide occurs, and has already occurred, in hearts and minds of the population. The troops can only follow that, as visible markers. There is nobody to shoot, and there is nothing to win if you do shoot. Can you think of any other scenario? If so, please provide your own scenario, with specifics of who exactly would be fighting on one side and on another. IMO, at this point the only fighting force in Ukraine is Maidan's armed groups. The Ukrainian army clearly distanced itself from politics, which seems to be a smart choice. The head of the army was kicked out as one of last political acts of Yanukovich. The police had been spat upon by Ukrainian government, so they won't fight for it either. Who then remains in Russian-speaking provinces who'd like to shoot?
(Score: 2) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @09:30AM
If someone tells you that your house is on fire, it's a pretty serious concern. You are not likely to debate the personality of the messenger, or to calculate the chances that he may be mistaken. You act immediately. The same applies to the danger of nazism.
I think that analogy is just outright nuts. It's the kind of thing that betrays a point of view that is not susceptible to reason or logic.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by WildWombat on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:55AM
"That's what German Jews told each other in 1930s ... The "official" documents on the Final Solution were not discovered until 1947. Waiting for the official memo did no good then, and it will do no good now. The only memo one gets is in form of the arrest warrant."
I think its now official:
tftp = Russia's Cold Fjord
Cheers,
-WW
(Score: 2) by M. Baranczak on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:02AM
Thank goodness! Soylent News is now complete.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @07:04AM
I couldn't disagree more, and I think we all know what an ad hominem [wikipedia.org] attack is.
(Score: 1) by tirefire on Sunday March 02 2014, @06:26AM
Oh shit, I always sided with Freedom in all of the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games.
But seriously, thanks a lot for the translations. This is a very interesting/horrifying situation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:26AM
Thank you for your insight. :)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by WildWombat on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:05AM
Whenever there is a topic of conversation that could possibly portray Russia in a negative light their online propaganda machine goes into overdrive. Every, single, time. The paid shills and duped alike crow about how heroic Russia is being and how they're just keeping peace and order.
--"Russia had troops there already, and bases, so one can't call it "invasion" until those troops start leaving the bases and doing something specific. All the reports so far simply talk about unidentified armed people who act politely but take control over strategic locations (such as airports.)"
The Washington Post claims otherwise [washingtonpost.com]: MOSCOW -- Russian troops took control of vital installations across the Crimean Peninsula on Saturday, and Russian President Vladimir Putin secured authorization to send in more as the Kremlin set the stage for a high-stakes international showdown over the future of Ukraine."
The fact that you'd try to pretend that the uniformed armed men are Ukranian military but instead choose to wear 'sterile uniforms' as opposed to their standard ones in their own country really shows your bias. Especially when pretty much every news source on the planet is reporting that it is Russian military, and that the Duma has publicly voted to send in more troops.
--"The leaders of Maidan have issued some very scary statements that outdo some of what Hitler said. Those statements have been heard in the East Ukraine. The threat of pogroms is real; there are groups of armed young men that left Maidan and now drive around Ukraine, terrorizing the population. The police is suppressed and does nothing. These armed gangs are the only power at the moment, and if they choose to kill someone there is nobody to track them down. The rule of law is no more in quite a few areas. The population does not like that, since population *always* wants peace and stability."
Lets see, we've got:
* 'outdo some of what Hitler said',
* 'threat of pogroms is real', and
* 'terrorizing the population.'
You missed the roving gangs of child molesters on your list of things to say to get people to forget all reason, but otherwise, not bad. I wonder why you'd want them to throw out all reason though....
Oh, here we are "and so it appears logical that they will want Russian troops to become peacekeepers while the official Ukraine is scrambling to construct the new legitimate government (it requires elections.)" Huh, who'd have thought we got there. I'm sure nobody else in Europe would have provided peacekeeping troops if asked, so it certainly is brilliant that those heroic and selfless Russians stepped up to the plate. And unilaterally at that. And good thing we'll have Russian peacekeepers to oversee the elections, you know, since theirs are always so well [nytimes.com] run. [rferl.org]
Cheers,
-WW
(Score: 2, Insightful) by ivan on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:27AM
You are not trying to do your own research and, actually, actively look for reasons not to do it.
Here is a couple of links, mister "I am unable to use Google":
Tyahnybok:r ences [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok#Refe
Yarosh:a rosh-kiev/ [time.com]
http://world.time.com/2014/02/04/ukraine-dmitri-y
My experience with Americans is that you are incredibly brainwashed. USSR hasn't even dreamed of the kind of brainwashing technologies that your critical thinking ability is subsumed by.
Not to say that there are no pro-Russia shills, but you Americans probably encounter them probably 1/1000 of the times when you've thought to have encountered them.
(Score: 1) by ivan on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:32AM
BTW, uniformed armed men are mostly Russian military, obviously. You are completely right about the uniform. But that doesn't change the fact that the actions of Russian military are supported by the people of Crimea.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by tibman on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:17AM
If Ukraine supported Russia invading then i don't think we'd be having this discussion. Crimea is a huge island comprised of dozens of towns/cities. It is larger than some countries. I highly doubt that everyone wants the invasion. Having popular support in one area doesn't give another nation the right to violate sovereignty. Just call it for what it is, an invasion.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @09:00AM
Sure. But Russia has overwhelming support all over Crimea, not just in Sevastopol. Because >60% of Crimeans are Russians.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03 2014, @05:46AM
Are they not Ukrainian citizens first? If not, why do stay in Ukraine?
(Score: 1) by pixeldyne on Sunday March 02 2014, @07:12AM
I'm not taking sides here. It's only natural that Russians would post their point of view and would like that view to be shared by others. There's no conspiracy going on here, also because this forum is new and would not yet be a target of any coordinated shills.
The nationalist extremist dude you've mentioned is not a leader of the 'maidan'. He will have no place in the government and was denounced many times by prominent Ukrainian and other European leaders.
I hope this situation will be resolved quickly and peacefully. I am afraid of what would happen if the Russian army provoked the Ukrainian army in any way, as was the case in Georgia.
We cannot let another war start in Europe with Slavic brothers fighting each other.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:54AM
It is a custom here not to do research?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @03:43AM
Now you stated: The leaders of Maidan have issued some very scary statements that outdo some of what Hitler said. - I'd kindly like to ask that you clarify and expand on that.
Finally, The stability you seem to feel that Russia would provide versus Ukraine striving to make it on it's own is... arguable. The main limiter on Ukraine is corruption - Maidan was opposition to that. Just as in the Orange Revolution, who was the symbol of corruption? Yanukovych - only now he has killed his own people. Never forget that Yanukovych is a complete puppet to Russia.
While you argue that the corruption situation is better in Russia, it is worse there than elsewhere in the EU. I believe that joining either the EU or the Russian Federation would be bad for Ukraine. This is a land that should be a bridge between both. What Ukraine needs now is to shake off the last vestiges of the old CCCP, including that culture of corruption. It should look to the West for assistance in moving into the 21st Century, and look to the East for it's culture and history.
Posted anon because I have a GP against talking about anything personal (my family) online.
(Score: 2, Informative) by ivan on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:39AM
Sashko Bily has stated that he will kill Russians and Jews for as long as he lives (Google it).
Tyahnybok:r [wikipedia.org] ences [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok#Refe
Yarosh:a [time.com] rosh-kiev/ [time.com]
http://world.time.com/2014/02/04/ukraine-dmitri-y
Also read this: http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=385&cid=937 3 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1) by pixeldyne on Sunday March 02 2014, @05:09AM
Some ultra-nationalist issued statements that angered Poland as well, however it wasn't the leaders. I'm sure the new government doesn't have ethnic cleansing agenda and doesnt want to get rid of anyone of non-Ukrainian heritage. If that happened then I can assure you that it won't be just the Russians invading.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:18AM
It's not that Russian side didn't use Hitler's rhetoric. Something about millions of their own race living there which must be protected since they cannot do that themselves. But then again can they actually do that considering their own citizens don't have it (protection and freedom) either?
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by bro1 on Sunday March 02 2014, @09:48AM
It looks to me like Russian propaganda and disinformation is working in soylent news too :-(
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:09AM
So are we doing news for nerds, plus all other major headlines here? I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything, but this is the sort of topic I can find discussed to nausiating lengths anywhere on the Internet. Slashdot was my haven for neutral technical oriented news, and then it became more about click bait and inciting the same circular arguments over and over.
I don't deny this is important, but what kind of person does this bring to the site? Soylent may be people, but the editors will choose who stays. By that I mean this site can become the same politically charged click bait bitch fest Slashdot turned into (minus some of the garbage, although the woman and her sewage issue article makes me wonder about that also). Or it can choose to be neutral on things which don't involve technology. You can have both you might say, but I'd argue as soon as a tone is set, the kind of people retained and driven away are what this site becomes. What kind of people are encouraged to stay or leave by posting this? Food for thought.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:24AM
Couldn't agree more
(Score: 3, Informative) by Barrabas on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:41AM
Talk this up!
This is exactly the type of feedback we need to gauge community interest. We look at responses such as these to tune our editorial policies.
If there's enough push-back on this article, and in the parent comment in particular, the editors will notice.
(Score: 1) by lubricus on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:52PM
agree 100%
... sorry about the typos
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Reziac on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:43AM
Conversely, I liked it on Slashdot, and I like it here (at least in limited doses). Only on such a forum do we get opportunity for the level of intelligent, interactive commentary. I don't want to be flooded with mundane news articles, no. But these discussion sites ARE my main news sources, precisely because someone on the spot is very likely to pipe up with better insight that I could get from any of the mainstream media (let alone the discussions there). So, when it's something that could upset all our applecarts... yeah. It's news that matters, and I want to learn what my fellows here have to say.
Up above, I read a perspective on the situation that I certainly would not get anywhere else.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1) by Yow on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:26AM
I agree with both points. Soylent definitely offers free form debate from people I would rather read than other "news sources." But I'd feel really very sad if this place just turned into just another, you know, site. I almost didn't click on the headline because of all I already read today.
(Score: 1) by Reziac on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:46AM
I had just seen something in passing elsewhere that wasn't at all informative, so I was happy to see the story here, and some very informed comments. I live in a cave. :)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @06:52AM
This is good stuff. We don't want to become a mere marketing channel for apple, like the other site. It's also very naive to think that technology isn't political. The two are always married. The real world is complex, deal with it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @07:17AM
"It's also very naive to think that technology isn't political. The two are always married. The real world is complex, deal with it."
Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. I, for one, am very glad to read and participate in this discussion.
(Score: 1) by G-forze on Sunday March 02 2014, @08:24AM
This. I can read the Reuters news story on any site, but only here can I read a meaningful discussion without (too many) uninformed trolls and perhaps even someone with insight that the news organizations copy-pasting from each other don't have. I thus don't mind (quite the opposite, actually) important world events being discussed, even when not directly related to technology or nerd culture, but they should stay a minor part of the submissions.
If I run into the term "SJW", I stop reading.
(Score: 2) by excelsior_gr on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:11AM
You're forgetting the other half of the motto, "stuff that matters". These things matter. Yes, we love our techie topics, but we can't remain oblivious to what is happening to the rest of the world. We'll leave that to the younger crowd.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ancientt on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:23AM
This goes for me as well. I don't come to SN for the news, I come to it for the commentary by people who understand and discuss the news from a perspective I appreciate. Certainly I'm usually interested first in the tech stories, but the other discussions on the important news of the day keeps me here instead of getting a second rate discussion from cnet or huffpost instead.
This post brought to you by Database Barbie
(Score: 1) by clone141166 on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:07AM
I agree, I found it interesting reading the comments tftp made above. I think informed comments/points of view like that can be tough to find on many mainstream sites.
The article was marked as "Breaking News" too, indicating that it might be something a bit different from the usual technical stuff. I think a few people mentioned elsewhere [sorry I can't remember the exact thread] that it would be nice to have breaking news marked and released ASAP on the front page, so it's great to see that the SoylentNews team is always listening. :)
(Score: 1) by scruffybeard on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:05PM
I am also okay with these kinds of stories. This is a significant world event. Having two to three of these a month would not be a big deal.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by regift_of_the_gods on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:24AM
This isn't clickbait, it's an opportunity for the site's community to post their perspectives on breaking general news.
This [google.com] is an example of what I'd consider clickbait.
(Score: 3) by unitron on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:27AM
Those whose primary motivation is to run around the internet looking for a place to talk about Ukraine and/or Russia aren't likely to wind up here.
But a small subset of those who are likely to wind up here because of the usual topics (computers, the internet, etc, just like at "the other place") might also have some insight into the issue and the situation, and we can learn something from them.
There's trouble right now in either Chile or Argentina, I forget which, and in Thailand, and that sucks for people there, but those are pretty much "local" stories. The Ukraine thing could lead to armed conflict between Russia and a number of as yet to be determined European countries or maybe even NATO--making it "Stuff that matters", not because these people are "white" and the others really aren't or anything like that, but because this has much more potential to spread.
Whether some other planet has water won't really matter if we don't survive to get there, but that's just one of several other front page stories you could read and comment on instead of this one, so you aren't being cheated out of anything.
something something Slashcott something something Beta something something
(Score: 2) by VLM on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:54PM
because of the usual topics
You can politely ask people to discuss the tech related issues, even in the summary. So who's github isn't getting commits anymore because they used to live at ground zero of the riots or who's seeing interesting new tech in the battles or who's seeing new techniques of astroturfing and censorship, perhaps even here?
If the vast majority of the comment authors insist on talking politics, if a very small minority don't like that, there's not much they can do about it other than try to convince the vast majority not to like what they like. Complaints to and about the editors will not have any effect on the beliefs and desires of the comment authors.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:41AM
Well... there's always pipedot [pipedot.org]. (which hasn't taken a stance either from what I know)
(Score: 2, Insightful) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:42AM
-ok.
Everyone at Facebook, Reddit, DailyKOS are quite concerned, yet few have any real insight into the military-industrial complex.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @12:31AM
Instead of 'Soylinils', why not "lentils"? Much nicer IMNSHO.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:20AM
This may not be a technical article, but techies live all over the globe. This stuff matters, people matter, and SoylentNews is People.
(Score: 1) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:23AM
I'm personally fine with news like this in moderation as long as FUCK BETA!
(Score: 1) by Hawkwind on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:51AM
Yeah, the bottom line is thank goodness this isn't the green site. But the headline is rather sensationalistic. As mentioned above the troops were already there and the Guardian isn't exactly backing up Soylent's headline. I've been following the Guardian and couple of other sites on this issue over the last week and when I saw this headline I jumped. I thought something had really changed since yesterday.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 02 2014, @01:56AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw [youtube.com]
(Score: 1) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:34AM
It's not like they don't have enough Plutonium. :-/
All but one of the Manhattan Project nuclear weapons secrets were declassified in 1965, I expect because America knew that both the Soviets and the People's Republic of China had The Bomb.
Those who claim that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction don't know that declassified nuclear weapons patents, such as how to build better Calutrons - a sort of large mass spectrometer used to refine Uranium - were found all over Iraq after the first Persian Gulf War.
Scientific American once featured a photo of an actual Calutron that had been hidden in an underground facility, powered by buried cables from a power plant hundreds of miles away.
One can even purchase The Los Alamos Primer, a textbook on nuclear weapons Physics, from Amazon for about forty bucks.
Coming Soon To A Nuclear Winter Near You:
World War Stupid.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by maxwell demon on Sunday March 02 2014, @02:03PM
No, the Ukraine did let go on the nukes, in return of a contract that Russia, the UK and the US guarantee their territorial integrity. I think it is the same contract which also allows Russia to keep their ships in Crimea.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hash14 on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:20AM
Since when did Obama care about sovereignty? As we speak, US drones are flying over Pakistan, Yemen, and other countries killing anyone they like with no due process. Not to mention that they're spying on everyone on the planet which, while not explicitly against any of those noble international laws that they are trumpeting around so much, is clearly wrong, illegal, amoral, whatever/everything you like.
Utter hypocrisy.
(Score: 3, Informative) by evilviper on Sunday March 02 2014, @09:23AM
Pakistan and Yemen gave full permission for the US to do what they're doing... no doubt in exchange for securing billions of dollars of some form of international "aid". They won't admit it in public, because it's unpopular, and there's really just no benefit at all to admitting it, but they absolutely did and do permit it. Their sovereignty isn't at issue.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Angry Jesus on Sunday March 02 2014, @10:45AM
Pakistan and Yemen gave full permission for the US to do what they're doing...
More specifically: Yemeni president says he approves each US assassination drone strike [presstv.com]
And wikileaks seems to have revealed pakistan's cooperation [cnn.com] (and strategy for denials of that cooperation).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by pixeldyne on Sunday March 02 2014, @04:47AM
Recent events aside, Crimea has been long occupied by Russians after they defeated the Ottomans. During WW2 the Russians shed the blood of quarter of a million Rwd Army soldiers when liberating the region from the Germans. It wasn't until 1950s that the autonomous republic was transferred to Ukraine as Krushchev's token of unity among the two nations united under the soviet flag.
I can appreciate the sentimemts of locals who would rather stick with the evil they know already rather than gamble their future with EU and NATO. Perhaps
It's true that the Russian APCs and soldiers are rolling into Sevastopol and other cities but so far it seems no shots have been fired. Still, Putin has broken several multilateral agreements and treaties with his move.
Ukraine has just announced mass mobilisation but so far they're unable to control the situation. That is, they're not moving to protect other areas of east Ukraine.
I'm not naive but do sincerely hope that the only thing thay will happen will be greater autonomy for Crimea and no further land grabs.