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Longtime Debian contributor Tollef Fog Heen has announced his resignation from the Debian systemd maintainer team. His announcement states that "the load of the continued attacks is just becoming too much."
He has since written a detailed blog article surrounding the circumstances of his resignation. As he puts it,
I've been a DD for almost 14 years, I should be able to weather any storm, shouldn't I? It turns out that no, the mountain does get worn down by the rain. It's not a single hurtful comment here and there. There's a constant drum about this all being some sort of conspiracy and there are sometimes flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence.
This is yet another dramatic event affecting the Debian project in recent months. The adoption of systemd has been extremely controversial, even going so far as to result in calls for Debian to be forked. There have been other problems as of late, too, ranging from a serious bug breaking Wine just days before the Jessie freeze deadline, to the possibility of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD being dropped from Debian 8. And it was only just over a week ago that Joey Hess — another longtime Debian contributor — left the project, citing the "very unhealthy directions" that Debian has been led in lately.
Is the internal tension and strife caused by systemd about to tear the Debian project apart? Recent events such as the aforementioned have suggested that this is becoming more and more of a possibility. The repercussions of this drama will no doubt be felt wide and far, given Debian's own popularity, as well it forming the basis of other major Linux distros such as Ubuntu and Linux Mint.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday November 17 2014, @04:12PM
Unlike many of those who are actually criticizing systemd - I'm actually running it on 2 of my systems so that I can make my own assessment. I have not (yet) discovered any major benefits, it does the job that it claims it does, but so do all the other init systems in use. I am also running FreeBSD and PC-BSD on 2 other systems to learn what I can, and cannot, do with them that I can do with linux. I have found several shortcomings that will not affect many users but do cause me considerable annoyance. For example, I use PaleMoon because it has maintained the 'traditional' browser interface and runs all of my Firefox add-ons, but currently there is no PaleMoon version for BSD. However, such issues will not prevent BSD from being used by the majority of those who want to use it.
However, your comment is, I believe, inaccurate. One developer/maintainer has left Debian because of the Debian Constitution - nothing at all to do with the software itself. TFH is leaving because of the ridiculous nature of the 'debate' which is, I agree, more than he should have to put up with.
The vast majority (but certainly not all) of the systemd criticism is posted by ACs who offer no technical debate about the software but repeatedly point out the unsubstantiated claims that it will take over the world, is a tool for the NSA, or is something spawned by the devil himself. The personal invective and threats have no place in intelligent debate and emanate from the lower strata of web users.
This should be a site for intelligent conversation but, as an editor, I feel that a growing minority have brought all that is bad from whence they came and seem to think that repeating trivial and unsubstantiated claims here will make give them some form of 'technical street cred'. They are mistaken.
I do not see any reason to change to systemd, and I can think of many reasons why not. There will undoubtedly be a number of bugs waiting to bite the community as it goes into more widespread use - but that can be said of any software. But I would appreciate a more intelligent discussion of the software.
There is no need to take any of my comments personally - those to whom they are directed will know that they are the intended recipients of my criticism.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday November 17 2014, @05:01PM
What's wrong with making decisions not based on technical merit? Surely I'm not the only one who has been burnt time and again by projects that don't consider users when making decisions eg. Gnome and SSL-explorer particularly inconvenienced me personally. Yes, developers don't have to make users happy, but if I'm one of those users they don't consider then I think it's justified for me to consider my relationship to that project. Personally I have a bias towards GPL3, because in my experience projects so licensed tend to be more user focused (Gnome notwithstanding). As an aside systemd seems to be LGPL and sysvinit is GPL3. Upstart is some weird BSD-alike license tied to Ubuntu, so I can understand not choosing that.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by http on Monday November 17 2014, @06:10PM
You have missed a big point. It doesn't matter what percentage of the critics are AC. What does matter is that almost all of the criticisms are valid and most are unaddressed. That such badly built software is gaining traction in the second most important component of the linux ecosystem (init) is more than a lot baffling. When baffling things happen, people strive for explanations, and when nothing obvious explains, they get more creative. Some of the unsubstantiated claims would actually explain what's going on.
I, too, would appreciate a more intelligent discussion of the software - first and foremost, a design document. Given that we're dealing with Poettering here, I'm not holding my breath.
I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday November 17 2014, @07:52PM
No. *MOST* of the criticisms are unverifiable. *SOME* of the criticisms appear valid. Some also appear dubious.
The real point, though, is that there has been essentially nothing posted that seems to me a valid reason to choose it. I don't really have an iron in this fire, as I've chosen to revert to Debian stable while waiting for the dust to settle. My bias is such that I have ensured (via update parameters) that I won't install systemd by accident. It's also true, however, that I ran an install of Ubuntu 14.04 on this system after Debian testing crashed with the install of systemd, and it worked without problems....and I saw no advantages. (But would I? I'm not much of a sysadmin, I only run my own system and that of my wife.)
For me the problem is that it's harder to understand what systemd is doing. I spent a lot of time over the years picking up managing sysv-init...I don't want to need to repeat that. (OTOH, this argument is often used by people who are using clunky systems when a sleek automated replacement comes out. I sure wouldn't want to go back to a hand cranked starter, even though it was easier to repair when it broke.)
So. I'm biased against systemd, but not strongly. I just haven't heard or experienced anything that would make me think it's a good decision.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @11:23PM
Cut the crap, son. This isn't reddit. We aren't fucking morons here.
The criticism against systemd is valid, and you know it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @03:54AM
Exactly, this is why we can't have nice things. That sort of name-calling has no place in a technical discussion, and it raises the question of if you are a mean kid, or part of an astroturfing FUD campaign.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @04:15AM
There's nothing to discuss here. Systemd is full of technical flaws. Cry "conspiracy theory!!@!@!" all you want. None of that will change the fact that systemd is broken software that has no place in Debian, or any other serious Linux distro.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday November 18 2014, @09:52AM
So please enlighten us all and explain what all the 'valid criticisms' are. I don't just want bald statements that cannot be substantiated, but an intelligent and technical discourse on the problems as you perceive them. I'm using it and it works - I don't see a reason to change to it, but that is simply a personal view and not 'valid criticism'.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @12:42PM
If you're discussing this matter, then you should already be aware of the criticism of systemd. If you aren't, then you should probably not participate in this discussion until you've done some research.
Since finding basic information like this is apparently a severe challenge for you, you can start here: http://boycottsystemd.org/ [boycottsystemd.org]
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday November 18 2014, @06:44PM
Thank you AC, you have made my point perfectly.
I didn't ask what other people dislike about it - I asked what the previous poster didn't like, why he didn't like it, and what he felt it stopped him from doing. I'm using it and I have no problems whatsoever with it. It works, I do not think that I will convert my other system over to it because I cannot see any advantages, but the binary logs are not a problem, the all-encompassing dependencies are not a problem. In fact, I haven't got any problems with it. Others may have - I haven't - and I asked for the previous poster's views. Not some regurgitated information about why someone else doesn't like it.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday November 29 2014, @02:25PM
Even that really depends on the application. An electric starter is very convenient in my car, which carries it's own battery and charges said battery whenever I drive. It's true if the car sits for a very long time it might cause a problem, but that's remote, unlikely, and already 'covered' in the sense of having a battery charger handy as well. And it's true it's more complicated to fix when it breaks - but there are several stores nearby or online that will replace the whole unit for a reasonable price, so again that's covered in a sense ahead of time.
On the other hand an electric starter for the generator at the hunting cabin would be a very bad idea. There, I will stick to my hand crank, thank you very much, and I don't much care if hipsters mistake me for a luddite as a result.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday November 17 2014, @08:21PM
Agreed, except that is not what I said. I referred to 'ACs who quote unsubstantiated claims without any technical support for their claims'. I don't have anything against ACs - but I deplore those who cannot discuss and justify their points without the discussion deteriorating into a slanging match. Unsubstantiated claims are just that - unsubstantiated. I might as well claim that the problem is caused by pixies for all the good it will contribute to the discussion. Having waded through the decision process that Debian have documented, I can see how the decision to adopt systemd was reached. I do believe that certain companies wield an unfair and unjustified influence on the committees but any one of us (if we have the appropriate technical abilities) is free to join the Debian team and to make our contribution and, maybe, end up on one of the committees instead of an existing member - but I don't expect that to happen in the near future. I am also of the opinion that the adoption of systemd was taking place too quickly and without consideration of what the users actually wanted.
I think, http, that we are both arguing from the same viewpoint here. As it stands at present, even Jessie when released will give you the option of choosing systemd or an alternative, but if you want to use Gnome then it has dependencies being built into it for systemd. Simply choose a different desktop.
I am not interested in knowing who people are or where they live. My interest starts and stops at our servers.
(Score: 1) by fritsd on Monday November 17 2014, @11:32PM
I've tried to find a spec for "things the modern low-level userspace Linux environment is supposed to do" on freedesktop.org, but haven't found anything so far.
If any of you could post such a link here, it would help rational debate.
For example that PID 1 has to do the cgroups management, that is totally not clear to me. OK, only 1 process can do cgroups management (I'll accept that as given for now), why can't PID 1 fork a cgroupmanager process then? Let cgroupmanager do its
(complicated) thing, and if it crashes 30 virtual machines deep, the system doesn't go down because (uncomplicated) PID 1 is still around.
Are there more such "Highlander" processes??? Generic Linux things that need to start before the system-specific /etc/init.d/rc is run?