SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
The Los Angeles Times is running an article describing the challenges faced by Asian Americans as they apply for acceptance to top colleges.
The article describes the impact that their race and ethnicity has on their SAT scores:
Lee's next slide shows three columns of numbers from a Princeton University study that tried to measure how race and ethnicity affect admissions by using SAT scores as a benchmark. It uses the term “bonus” to describe how many extra SAT points an applicant's race is worth.
She points to the first column. African Americans received a “bonus” of 230 points, Lee says.
She points to the second column. “Hispanics received a bonus of 185 points.”
The last column draws gasps. Asian Americans, Lee says, are penalized by 50 points — in other words, they had to do that much better to win admission.
“Do Asians need higher test scores? Is it harder for Asians to get into college? The answer is yes,” Lee says.
A core tenet of the American philosophy, even from before the days of the Founding Fathers, is that through hard work and excellence one should be able to obtain success in life. But is this ideal even possible when certain underachieving groups are given artificial advantages, while those with the most merit are artificially held back?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by CirclesInSand on Monday March 02 2015, @09:12AM
This isn't helping blacks and hispanics either. Do you really think they are doing fine taking freshman classes with students who score an average of 280 points higher on SATs, and categorically got better grades in high school?
There are a wide range of colleges. Telling someone that they are qualified for a top college when they would be more successful (and not drop out of) a lesser ranked college is not helpful.
If anyone is interested in debates, this one is fairly well informed on the subject : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm5eph0g_Ag [youtube.com]
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:17AM
"Not a racist because not being a racist actually hurts those that I am racist about." This one is kinda twisted. Could be an actual point. So we keep blacks and hispanics out of colleges?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Marneus68 on Monday March 02 2015, @09:22AM
> So we keep blacks and hispanics out of colleges?
Yeah, but only the ones with shitty grades, you know, the way it already works for white people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:26AM
"I am not a racist because I want to keep whites out of college too!" Well, consistent, at least. But do you think SAT scores have anything to do with it?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 02 2015, @10:17AM
Whoa - I'm not sure that you've thought that through.
Okay - we got a pool of people applying for college. Some are black, some white, some hispanic, some asian.
Your black people get a nice huge bonus tacked on to their test scores.
The hispanics get a bonus too.
White people don't seem to get any bonus, and maybe a small penalty.
Asians get a HUGE penalty.
So - who gets in? Some qualified blacks, along with a lot of unqualified blacks. Some qualified hispanics, along with a handful of unqualified hispanics. Whites? Only the cream of the crop. Asians? Only the creme de la creme.
So, many qualified white people are disqualified and barred from top colleges just for being white. WORSE - Asians are just barred from college unless they are over-qualified for the various geek clubs.
Sorry, it isn't working out the way you describe at all. Whites and asians with great grades aren't getting a fair shake at all here.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Monday March 02 2015, @02:27PM
Stacking the deck against Whites and Asians with regard to college admissions doesn't prevent Google from hiring mostly Whites and Asians. [mashable.com]
If Google sees through forced diversity bullshit, chances are that others do as well.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 02 2015, @03:05PM
I'm sure that some others do. But - we still have quotas for all government agencies, for all government contractors, and for the vast majority of large corporations. Every company wants to hire a black female, regardless of her qualifications. Just so long as she has some degree - any degree - she is a valued asset to them. Give her an office, and a title, and they have their "token" female and "token" black all rolled up in one.
Ever wondered what it's like to BE that "token"? It must suck. NO ONE likes you, or respects you, I would imagine.
(Score: 1) by t-3 on Monday March 02 2015, @04:03PM
Well, any whites or asians qualified to work at Google have degrees right? So they are the best of whites and asians who actually got accepted to college, which has already been shown to discriminate against them. So Google is happy with discrimination at college because it makes their hiring process easier. None of this is actually true though.
Whites are the vast majority of the population, followed by blacks and asians. Hispanics are actually the second largest group, but "hispanic" is a pan-color term for the descendants of Spanish colonialism and their victims so it's not a racial distinction really worth making. In any case, whites have such an advantage in sheer numbers that any discrimination probably doesn't even show up statistically if it does exist. Maybe the stereotypical studiousness ascribed to Asians has led to discrimination by colleges? If the majority of asians are being pushed to study, they probably have better SAT scores on average but are not actually smarter or more creative than anyone else? The numbers seem to support this (pages 7-8, second url), and also show that a 50 point bias still puts asians on average ahead of everyone else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity [wikipedia.org]
http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/2013/TotalGroup-2013.pdf [collegeboard.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:25AM
No, moron, students with lower grades would do better going to colleges where they can be more competitive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @11:04AM
(Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Monday March 02 2015, @02:35PM
"I'm not a racist because I try hard to look like I'm not racist by spamming comments everywhere on the Internet."
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Monday March 02 2015, @08:01PM
I am a racist, but an equal-opportunity one. It depends on how many bad stereotypes of a certain group I encounter in X period of time.
Here at the DMV now there are 3 primary groups - whites, asians, and hispanics. Only one of the three groups is bringing their crying babies in with them and allowing theIr older youngins to run around unleashed? Care to guess which one?
If you guessed the correct answer, you just might be a racist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:35PM
Let me guess. Fuck you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:21AM
this fucking this is called "reservation" it has to have political roots somewhere .. its a truckload of bullshit
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:29AM
"I am not racist because, reservation, political, shit. . . ." Dude, you are never going to be in the running with "I am not a racist because" posts like this! The only way you could win is if we had a legacy system that reserved slots for the sons of rich racist alums!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:34AM
you don’t get it man .. I don’t want to run anywhere .. I don’t want to win anything .. I don’t want to go to any crap ass American college .. I just wanna tell you that This has political roots .. no one cares about the black /Asians .. they are insects in America .. this is politically motivates .. got it ? now shut the fuck up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:45AM
"I am not racist because... shut the fuck up".
Got it, if that's all you got, then that's all you got.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:47AM
Won't get you into Harvard, though.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday March 02 2015, @09:53AM
But will get him into the Tautology club [xkcd.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @10:30AM
Who or what is this Harvard?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:54AM
I never said I’m not a racist .. so don’t use that sentence every time like a retard .. everyone is racist .. it's human nature .. even people who claim they are not .. it's just that people don’t need to bring racism into every aspect of life ..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:59AM
"I'm not racist because everyone is racist"...
Meh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @10:01AM
yeah meh fucking goat
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @09:59AM
"I am not a racist because
quoteI never said I’m not a racist .. so don’t use that sentence every time like a REDACTED/quote."
It is far worse than I thought possible. Minus 150 points.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 02 2015, @10:23AM
GP has a point, and you're failing to see it.
EVERYONE has preferences. Those preferences include the appearance of the people they surround themselves with. Call it racism, or whatever. Many black people prefer black faces around them - that is, they prefer familiar features in their friends. Blacks aren't unique at all. Little boys and girls around the world, no matter their color, culture, religion, or whatever, PREFER to have familiar looking people around them, with whom they can relate. Shared history, shared religion, shared racial traits, shared national background - each of these has a bearing on the "familiarity" of people they meet.
Yes, people much prefer to be around people who are like themselves, than to be surrounded by complete strangers with whom they share no common values.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @10:28AM
Whats GP ?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @10:32AM
No, they don't. Are you possible South African? White South African?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @05:05PM
Little boys and girls around the world, no matter their color, culture, religion, or whatever, PREFER to have familiar looking people around them, with whom they can relate.
I'm not sure I believe this. Anecdotal counterexample: in my neighborhood we are fairly racially mixed; my kids are caucasian (Scandinavian/British/German ancestry), the next-door neighbors are hispanic, and the kids a few doors down are black. None of the neighborhood kids seem to care about the race or color of their playmates. If anything, I think my kids seek out friends who are different from them because they enjoy novelty.
I don't doubt that you've observed the preference you mention, but we need to have a nature vs nurture discussion. The behavior of young children is largely based on the behaviors they see in their parents, and parental influence on social interaction takes hold around age 3. Little boys and girls around the world who have xenophobic parents will certainly prefer familiar looking people around them, since that's what their parents are teaching them by example. That doesn't mean that it's human nature, nor that it's the ideal state or even an acceptable one. Understandable, yes, but neither default nor optimal.
Now, how is the AC going to respond to this one? Here's my best guess:
I'm not racist because my kids have black friends
(Score: 3, Interesting) by q.kontinuum on Monday March 02 2015, @10:43AM
Sounds logic, but shouldn't stop there. Next question should be, *why* do they have worse grades? I don't believe in intellectual superiority of one ethnic above another. If some ethnics live on average in worse conditions, these conditions have to be changed. If the worse grades are caused by racist teachers, the bonus points might actually be a workaround (the solution would be to educate racist teachers).
Another approach would be to check the current dropout-rate of different ethnics and check them against their bonus-points. Are the dropout-rates of blacks or hispanics actually higher? Or do they compensate worse previous grades somehow? (And before any white guy feels discriminated now: I'm not per se assuming they'd be more diligent; just there might be a chance growing up in a worse condition might make them fight harder to get our of these.)
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Monday March 02 2015, @07:52PM
Next question should be, *why* do they have worse grades?
Yes, lets have that discussion. It would be a very productive one if it were actually allowed to take place. But it has no place in THIS discussion.
Reality is what IS, not what shoulda, coulda, oughta be. Reality is that a university faces vast differences in test scores with very painfully observable differences by race, class, etc. They have policy decisions to make, and are currently making pretty much the worst one possible, to discriminate based on race and do do it long enough they have a track record proving it harms the very people they claim they want to help. Putting students in courses with people who scored hundreds of points higher on the SAT is a sure fire way to cause them to fail and drop out. Those students almost certainly could have done fine in less rigorous programs. Pretty much the only logical conclusion to be drawn from the actual practice is that it isn't done for the benefit of the students, it is done for the feels of the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION. So they can feel good about their social justice credentials, give themselves gaudy awards, and keep Al Sharpton from staging riots.
I don't believe in intellectual superiority of one ethnic above another.
I know it is accepted as Holy Writ and everyone is expected to mouth the platitude, what in the name of Science leads you to think it is actually so?
Human Biological Diversity. Google it. Humans vary in almost every other way, it is irrational and silly to think that the one way we are exactly the same (taken only on large scale population ratings, everyone agrees we vary as individuals) on a racial basis is in the brain. Of course we have statistical variation by race in things mental. We know some groups exhibit more or less ability in different intellectual tasks. We aren't permitted to apply the methods of Science to ask meaningful questions in this area, but some of the variations are pretty obvious.
Remember, if we want[1] to "Celebrate Diversity" it means there needs to be diversity. Not just in genitalia, skin pigmentation and other unimportant things. We are unique among the animals for our minds, if we all think (or are forced to by PC) exactly alike there isn't any diversity to celebrate.
Are the dropout-rates of blacks or hispanics actually higher?
They are. Much higher. Criminally higher.
[1] And we do. A civilization that can successfully harness the power of diversity has very measurable advantages vs those who can't. Because NOBODY is best at everything. Success at any task is easier when division of labor can be draw from as varied a pool as possible.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Monday March 02 2015, @08:13PM
Racist teachers could certainly be a factor in why minority students have worse GPAs, but it seems a bit unlikely when many minority students come from school districts where they are in fact the majority. Why would a white racist teacher go teach school in an inner-city school that's all black? Of course, for minority students coming from schools where they are in fact minorities, this could be a factor.
However, this article is about SAT tests. These are totally color-blind. They're not related to high-school GPAs in any way; they're a standardized test that you take (usually in a totally different location, at least that's how it was when I was in school) and are graded by machine, except for the essay part. And even that might be difficult to be racist with because surely they don't let the graders see the names of the students as that would obviously bias them.
The appalling thing here is that it's Asians, who are themselves a minority, and a smaller one than blacks and Hispanics, which are being given the worst treatment here. I really don't see how this can be justified without a completely racist argument.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by TWX on Monday March 02 2015, @02:21PM
Most schools offer at least remedial courses for those that are accepted with deficiencies. It's also incredibly unlikely that they'd accept a student that was deficient in the area that the student claimed to want to study, so deficiencies to make-up would be for non-core subject matter.
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS...
and everywhere the language went, it was a total loss.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 02 2015, @02:32PM
Do you really think they are doing fine taking freshman classes with students who score an average of 280 points higher on SATs, and categorically got better grades in high school?
The SAT and high schools only care about rote memorization. They're quite meaningless. I guess that still doesn't help these people, but I'm tired of people referring to standardized test scores from abysmal tests and grades as if they mean anything at the moment; they don't. Plenty of rote memorization 'geniuses' pass the SAT and high school with ease, and if the university/college is good, they'll be weeded out almost immediately in classes pretty much designed to weed out such individuals.