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(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, @10:12PM
(35 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday February 27, @10:12PM (#1394654)
Working in a professional environment, I fear this one more than anything else on the list. I live in a part of the world (first-world country that's not the US) where mass shootings are virtually unheard of. My neighbourhood is pretty safe, but even if I were approached then, statistically, it would be a robbery and not a murder. I'm fine with Public Speaking and take precautions on the internet.
Despite never being subject to one, I fear false sexual harassment claims more than anything on the list because they fall squarely in the 'guilty until proven innocent' category and can effectively end one's career just because someone doesn't like you. All it takes is for one person with a vendetta and lack of morals and your working life, friendships and possibly even marriage are all over.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, @11:06PM
(10 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday February 27, @11:06PM (#1394655)
I understand the concern on an intellectual level, but your complaint, particularly the last paragraph, sounds rather inane. God forbid that people act professionally at the place of their profession. I hate to blame the victim but routinely having risque conversations, being physically intimate with coworkers, and having conversations in private, you are asking for all sorts of problems, the least of which is a false sexual harassment claim.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03, @02:29AM
(9 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Monday March 03, @02:29AM (#1395052)
I worked with a Chinese woman who started suggesting, ever-so-slightly, from the moment I arrived that she was interested. I wasn't. I never suggested or indicated that I was, I never treated her as anything more than a friend and co-worker.
Three years later, at a holiday party, our company was having an outing - rent a small event hall, cram 70 people into it, and have dinner. I think drinks were available with tickets -- two per person. People stood around tables all over, talked, and there was a couch for the sitters (including me).
At some point this woman came up, and we talked (about what I don't remember), and I said I needed to shave -- that 3-4 day stubble growth. She went, "What?! Nooo!" and I responded "I have to, it's at that stage." She went "Why?!" and I thought back to when I was six years old and I asked my dad the same thing. Chinese men don't regularly have facial hair, so the reason is probably completely foreign to her (no pun intended). I moved over, halted, second-thoughts, should I? but she's asking a direct question, and concluded, moved and *scritch* her cheek with my stubble. "That's why." "Ohhh my god!! Yes, shave, shave!!" .... and that was that. I didn't move my butt. I wasn't close to her. I never touched her hand, nor her shoulder, my skin never contacted hers.
So why am I raising this scene? A few days later I was called in by the HR rep of the business. A sexual harrassment complaint had been filed against me, by her. It started out with the HR rep saying, "It's probably a cultural thing, she just doesn't understand how people interact in this country," and there were smiles and chuckles arround, and it included, "but it was filed and so we can't just ignore it. This won't be a problem with the two of you working together, will it?"
No. No problem. Working together. "Can't just ignore it."
My job was IT, I was in a supportive role at that point (from supporting the desktop computers to supporting the developers' interactions with the lower-level Linux system -- I worked pretty closely with *everyone*). The changes were: she's an employee, not a friend. I will do nothing to treat her as a friend, as that is disallowed. From that day on, I did not smile at her, I did not engage in casual conversation, and when she needed assistance with her computer or project, I asked her to leave the cubicle while I stepped in to do my work.
This sort of thing is real, and can't just be ignored. (Or rather, it can be -- but the company *won't*, and it's your fault, as a man, no matter what.)
Part of the issue may have been that she was teased obnoxiously by someone the whole time I was working there, and it really bothered her a lot. Probably she was teased about that scritch at the holiday party, and blew up ... on me. He never had anything happen to him. No problems. Keep going. He's just a "friend".
---
Another example, I was kind-of sort-of interested in a girl met from Tinder, and we did a fair number of things (hiking, concert -- "out" things). I was giving her a ride home one night, and she said she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me and doesn't want me to touch her. (Er.. what?) I sat there, thinking about that. As I was sitting there thinking about that, she threw her arms around me and was hugging me. Yet, I'm not allowed to touch her. So I didn't. I sat in my seat with my arms at my sides as she hugged me.
As a man, It Is Your Fault.
Fuck That Shit. I will not get involved with any woman from this or any similar country, at all, ever more.
---
If you watch Japanese anime, if a man walks through his front door and there's an unknown bitch changing in his home, whom he sees naked because - he's walking into his home.. "HOW DARE YOU!!!" and then they get hit and harrassed and treated coldly for the remainder of the episode. If a male is physically forced into any contact with a female, he pulls away as immediately as possible and the female regards him as a heathen. Etc etc.
I once read that "Movies reflect the concern of the population." (Japan - radioactivity vs Godzilla; United States westerns vs the concerns of the Indians, late 90's/early 2000's fears of kidnapping / mysterious killer on the loose (Scream, Taken, so so many more); etc.) In Anime there's so, so much of it -- showing what it's like to live there as an average male. Constant fear that a woman will accuse you of "whatever," whether you did such a thing or not, or *completely* taken out of context. Yes, compared to Japan 40 years ago, completely the opposite. Now most males in Japan are utterly fearful for their freedom, should a woman decide to accuse them of *anything*.
Once accused, Guilty until (and usually even-if) proven innocent.
- decently close friends, - didn't touch them, - scritch of stubble, - middle of a room of 70 people,
I seem to always got the reaction, "YOU CAN"T DO THAT TO SOMEONE!!!!"
Your disbelief? I can't believe you can't see this. What OP is doing **IS NOT ENOUGH**.
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman if it doesn't have transparent windows. Blinds cannot be closed. Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male, the *twice* that I've had a meeting with a female has had clear glass windows, and a short meeting. Now it's all across-the-internet - but I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman . . . Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male . . . I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[1] the equal or less or more operator might be: <=> and always returns true if and only if the left expression is less, equal or greater than the right expression.
-- Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
> Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
> It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
What you seem to not get is: men don't bitch about it. It's how men interact. Women do it to women, too. Women *DO* do it to men. Yet only women bitch about it, and only when men do it to them.
The problem is so profound that even when men *don't* do it to women, women report it regardless. And regardless whatever the man did, the woman must be cared for, must be protected - and so the man failed, no matter what.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM
(1 child)
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM (#1395153)
Also, any M --> M, F --> M or F --> F sexual harassment will be investigated carefully before any assumptions are made. Any claim of M --> F sexual harassment is automatically assumed to be true - guilty until proven innocent.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM (#1395180)
The problem is with M --> F sexual harassment historically is that it was not taken seriously. It was often just dismissed or brushed under the carpet. Things changed from essentially victim blaming or accusing the female of hysteria to believing the victim. In many cases this is a useful way of approaching the situation. The problem is that there are people who will make malicious and vexatious claims of harassment against others. Mounting a robust legal defence is expensive and beyond the means of many people.
You broke the cardinal rule of never touching someone without being explicitly invited to do so.
Where I am, it is reasonably OK to touch people's hands (handshaking on greeting strangers you are bieng introduced to is normal), elbows, and (briefly) the centre of a persons back in the area from between the shoulder-blades to the small of the back. Allowable parts of the body vary by culture.
Scratching stubble against another persons face wouldn't be usual. You'd need to give adequate warning, and be invited to do so. It would still be regarded as odd.
Your boundaries were not her boundaries, and you made the mistake of not checking first. Easily done.
Since you're in a people management role, could you have security cameras set up in your office / conference rooms to eliminate any doubt about what is happening in them?
As for your behavior: Yes, you're doing all the right things by avoiding risque conversations and limiting your physical contact with your employees. Although I'm unclear why you would have ever thought that kisses were in-bounds at work, unless your country's culture has everyone routinely doing that to each other. As in, if you're straight, and wouldn't do that to some big muscular dude at the bar, you probably shouldn't be doing it to your subordinates.
-- "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 28, @05:15AM
(4 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday February 28, @05:15AM (#1394675)
different person here: when I did my exchange year in Belgium, all students kissed hello (including straight bearded boys with straight bearded boys) --- each cheek. while it didn't happen with the teachers, I'd say that's a fairly professional environment.
It is the same in many places in France, but the GP did say "unless your country's culture has everyone routinely doing that to each other" so he has acknowledged that it can occur quite innocently.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 28, @06:18AM
(2 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday February 28, @06:18AM (#1394684)
OP here.
Culturally, a single kiss on the cheek between a female worker and another worker (male or female) is pretty common but is rarely used when first meeting someone. It's not ubiquitous though, so I avoid it.
Another poster noted that my safeguards are just standard professional behaviour. Yes, though people are humans too and will often have colleagues that they feel more comfortable around. Ideally the workplace should be enjoyable, so I see no problem with sharing the odd bit of news or a joke. I am just more careful than others when it comes to where the line is.
Part of being a leader, both in the workplace and other contexts, is knowing when not to say or do something you really would like to because you know it could be misconstrued or otherwise cause significant problems.
-- "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 07, @06:01PM
by Anonymous Coward
on Friday March 07, @06:01PM (#1395617)
> Part of being a leader, both in the workplace and other contexts,
Ah, the no-true-Scottsman fallacy. If they're not doing what you feel they should be doing, they're not a leader.
Part of the problem: things change. When you're older and your brain is less plastique and you're "set in your ways" -- it becomes a real problem when things suddenly change. (Suddenly: 20 years.)
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 01, @08:00AM
(17 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 01, @08:00AM (#1394794)
This oft-repeated canard fo "you'll be guilty until proven innocent is boring. Boring, boring, boring. Same old lies coming from the same old liars. The only people claiming worry about "false sexual harassment claims" are people who sexually harass. If you don't harass your co-workers, and just do your job instead, you'll be fine. Really.
Here's the thing: victims of sexual harassment who truthfully try to expose it have their lives turned to shit. Absolute shit. The perpetrator's employer, friends, and family routinely work together to discredit the claimant and back up the perpetrator. The victim's friends and family will not even think of believing them except under a very narrow, unlikely set of circumstances that perpetrators go out of their way to prevent. Their employment is, at best, likely to end if they are in any way public about what happened.
Flagged Comment by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 01, @10:54AM (#1394812)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 01, @01:34PM
(7 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 01, @01:34PM (#1394825)
I know someone who was framed by his ex-wife, one of her friends and the friend's teenage daughter. He got 18 months and 10 years on the Sex Offenders Register.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, @10:12PM (35 children)
Working in a professional environment, I fear this one more than anything else on the list. I live in a part of the world (first-world country that's not the US) where mass shootings are virtually unheard of. My neighbourhood is pretty safe, but even if I were approached then, statistically, it would be a robbery and not a murder. I'm fine with Public Speaking and take precautions on the internet.
Despite never being subject to one, I fear false sexual harassment claims more than anything on the list because they fall squarely in the 'guilty until proven innocent' category and can effectively end one's career just because someone doesn't like you. All it takes is for one person with a vendetta and lack of morals and your working life, friendships and possibly even marriage are all over.
I'm in a people management role at work, so I need to be extra careful. I avoid any potentially risqué conversations, give out handshakes instead of hugs/kisses (actually most of the time I don't even do that - I just raise my hand a little like a hello/goodbye wave) and have HR present every time I have to have a performance related conversation.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27, @11:06PM (10 children)
I understand the concern on an intellectual level, but your complaint, particularly the last paragraph, sounds rather inane. God forbid that people act professionally at the place of their profession. I hate to blame the victim but routinely having risque conversations, being physically intimate with coworkers, and having conversations in private, you are asking for all sorts of problems, the least of which is a false sexual harassment claim.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03, @02:29AM (9 children)
I worked with a Chinese woman who started suggesting, ever-so-slightly, from the moment I arrived that she was interested. I wasn't. I never suggested or indicated that I was, I never treated her as anything more than a friend and co-worker.
Three years later, at a holiday party, our company was having an outing - rent a small event hall, cram 70 people into it, and have dinner. I think drinks were available with tickets -- two per person. People stood around tables all over, talked, and there was a couch for the sitters (including me).
At some point this woman came up, and we talked (about what I don't remember), and I said I needed to shave -- that 3-4 day stubble growth. She went, "What?! Nooo!" and I responded "I have to, it's at that stage." She went "Why?!" and I thought back to when I was six years old and I asked my dad the same thing. Chinese men don't regularly have facial hair, so the reason is probably completely foreign to her (no pun intended). I moved over, halted, second-thoughts, should I? but she's asking a direct question, and concluded, moved and *scritch* her cheek with my stubble. "That's why." "Ohhh my god!! Yes, shave, shave!!" .... and that was that. I didn't move my butt. I wasn't close to her. I never touched her hand, nor her shoulder, my skin never contacted hers.
So why am I raising this scene? A few days later I was called in by the HR rep of the business. A sexual harrassment complaint had been filed against me, by her. It started out with the HR rep saying, "It's probably a cultural thing, she just doesn't understand how people interact in this country," and there were smiles and chuckles arround, and it included, "but it was filed and so we can't just ignore it. This won't be a problem with the two of you working together, will it?"
No. No problem. Working together. "Can't just ignore it."
My job was IT, I was in a supportive role at that point (from supporting the desktop computers to supporting the developers' interactions with the lower-level Linux system -- I worked pretty closely with *everyone*). The changes were: she's an employee, not a friend. I will do nothing to treat her as a friend, as that is disallowed. From that day on, I did not smile at her, I did not engage in casual conversation, and when she needed assistance with her computer or project, I asked her to leave the cubicle while I stepped in to do my work.
This sort of thing is real, and can't just be ignored. (Or rather, it can be -- but the company *won't*, and it's your fault, as a man, no matter what.)
Part of the issue may have been that she was teased obnoxiously by someone the whole time I was working there, and it really bothered her a lot. Probably she was teased about that scritch at the holiday party, and blew up ... on me. He never had anything happen to him. No problems. Keep going. He's just a "friend".
---
Another example, I was kind-of sort-of interested in a girl met from Tinder, and we did a fair number of things (hiking, concert -- "out" things). I was giving her a ride home one night, and she said she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me and doesn't want me to touch her. (Er.. what?) I sat there, thinking about that. As I was sitting there thinking about that, she threw her arms around me and was hugging me. Yet, I'm not allowed to touch her. So I didn't. I sat in my seat with my arms at my sides as she hugged me.
As a man, It Is Your Fault.
Fuck That Shit. I will not get involved with any woman from this or any similar country, at all, ever more.
---
If you watch Japanese anime, if a man walks through his front door and there's an unknown bitch changing in his home, whom he sees naked because - he's walking into his home.. "HOW DARE YOU!!!" and then they get hit and harrassed and treated coldly for the remainder of the episode. If a male is physically forced into any contact with a female, he pulls away as immediately as possible and the female regards him as a heathen. Etc etc.
I once read that "Movies reflect the concern of the population." (Japan - radioactivity vs Godzilla; United States westerns vs the concerns of the Indians, late 90's/early 2000's fears of kidnapping / mysterious killer on the loose (Scream, Taken, so so many more); etc.) In Anime there's so, so much of it -- showing what it's like to live there as an average male. Constant fear that a woman will accuse you of "whatever," whether you did such a thing or not, or *completely* taken out of context. Yes, compared to Japan 40 years ago, completely the opposite. Now most males in Japan are utterly fearful for their freedom, should a woman decide to accuse them of *anything*.
Once accused, Guilty until (and usually even-if) proven innocent.
(Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @02:34AM (7 children)
Each time I tell the story to someone,
- decently close friends,
- didn't touch them,
- scritch of stubble,
- middle of a room of 70 people,
I seem to always got the reaction, "YOU CAN"T DO THAT TO SOMEONE!!!!"
Your disbelief? I can't believe you can't see this. What OP is doing **IS NOT ENOUGH**.
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman if it doesn't have transparent windows. Blinds cannot be closed. Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male, the *twice* that I've had a meeting with a female has had clear glass windows, and a short meeting. Now it's all across-the-internet - but I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 03, @03:41PM (4 children)
Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[1] the equal or less or more operator might be: <=> and always returns true if and only if the left expression is less, equal or greater than the right expression.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @09:19PM
> Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
Indeed.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @09:23PM (2 children)
> It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
What you seem to not get is: men don't bitch about it. It's how men interact. Women do it to women, too. Women *DO* do it to men. Yet only women bitch about it, and only when men do it to them.
The problem is so profound that even when men *don't* do it to women, women report it regardless. And regardless whatever the man did, the woman must be cared for, must be protected - and so the man failed, no matter what.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM (1 child)
Also, any M --> M, F --> M or F --> F sexual harassment will be investigated carefully before any assumptions are made. Any claim of M --> F sexual harassment is automatically assumed to be true - guilty until proven innocent.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM
The problem is with M --> F sexual harassment historically is that it was not taken seriously. It was often just dismissed or brushed under the carpet. Things changed from essentially victim blaming or accusing the female of hysteria to believing the victim. In many cases this is a useful way of approaching the situation. The problem is that there are people who will make malicious and vexatious claims of harassment against others. Mounting a robust legal defence is expensive and beyond the means of many people.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by pTamok on Tuesday March 04, @02:39PM
You broke the cardinal rule of never touching someone without being explicitly invited to do so.
Where I am, it is reasonably OK to touch people's hands (handshaking on greeting strangers you are bieng introduced to is normal), elbows, and (briefly) the centre of a persons back in the area from between the shoulder-blades to the small of the back. Allowable parts of the body vary by culture.
Scratching stubble against another persons face wouldn't be usual. You'd need to give adequate warning, and be invited to do so. It would still be regarded as odd.
Your boundaries were not her boundaries, and you made the mistake of not checking first. Easily done.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday February 28, @01:39AM (5 children)
Since you're in a people management role, could you have security cameras set up in your office / conference rooms to eliminate any doubt about what is happening in them?
As for your behavior: Yes, you're doing all the right things by avoiding risque conversations and limiting your physical contact with your employees. Although I'm unclear why you would have ever thought that kisses were in-bounds at work, unless your country's culture has everyone routinely doing that to each other. As in, if you're straight, and wouldn't do that to some big muscular dude at the bar, you probably shouldn't be doing it to your subordinates.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 28, @05:15AM (4 children)
different person here: when I did my exchange year in Belgium, all students kissed hello (including straight bearded boys with straight bearded boys) --- each cheek. while it didn't happen with the teachers, I'd say that's a fairly professional environment.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday February 28, @06:08AM (3 children)
It is the same in many places in France, but the GP did say "unless your country's culture has everyone routinely doing that to each other" so he has acknowledged that it can occur quite innocently.
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 28, @06:18AM (2 children)
OP here.
Culturally, a single kiss on the cheek between a female worker and another worker (male or female) is pretty common but is rarely used when first meeting someone. It's not ubiquitous though, so I avoid it.
Another poster noted that my safeguards are just standard professional behaviour. Yes, though people are humans too and will often have colleagues that they feel more comfortable around. Ideally the workplace should be enjoyable, so I see no problem with sharing the odd bit of news or a joke. I am just more careful than others when it comes to where the line is.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday February 28, @03:08PM (1 child)
I was very intentionally trying to differentiate between countries where cheek kisses are normal greetings, and kisses that correctly get people into real trouble [bbc.com].
Part of being a leader, both in the workplace and other contexts, is knowing when not to say or do something you really would like to because you know it could be misconstrued or otherwise cause significant problems.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 07, @06:01PM
> Part of being a leader, both in the workplace and other contexts,
Ah, the no-true-Scottsman fallacy. If they're not doing what you feel they should be doing, they're not a leader.
Part of the problem: things change. When you're older and your brain is less plastique and you're "set in your ways" -- it becomes a real problem when things suddenly change. (Suddenly: 20 years.)
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 01, @08:00AM (17 children)
This oft-repeated canard fo "you'll be guilty until proven innocent is boring. Boring, boring, boring. Same old lies coming from the same old liars. The only people claiming worry about "false sexual harassment claims" are people who sexually harass. If you don't harass your co-workers, and just do your job instead, you'll be fine. Really.
Here's the thing: victims of sexual harassment who truthfully try to expose it have their lives turned to shit. Absolute shit. The perpetrator's employer, friends, and family routinely work together to discredit the claimant and back up the perpetrator. The victim's friends and family will not even think of believing them except under a very narrow, unlikely set of circumstances that perpetrators go out of their way to prevent. Their employment is, at best, likely to end if they are in any way public about what happened.
If the police get involved, things get much, much worse [ojp.gov] for accusers. The majority of victims know this in advance.
No WAY they're going to subject themselves to that kind of shit unless it actually happened.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 01, @01:34PM (7 children)
I know someone who was framed by his ex-wife, one of her friends and the friend's teenage daughter. He got 18 months and 10 years on the Sex Offenders Register.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Mykl on Tuesday March 04, @02:30AM (7 children)
Nice display of empathy there. Someone shares their biggest fear and you indirectly accuse them of that very thing because of that sharing. Classy.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @10:40AM
Actually, it was a confession, and a confession of more than the fear, an admission of a fear of being caught. Fucking perv.