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posted by n1 on Tuesday August 19 2014, @05:43PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the put-your-business-head-on dept.

Jon Evans writes at TechCrunch that some extremely successful companies, notably Facebook and Google, are famously engineer-centric, and many, many engineers go on to become successful CEOs. But at many companies engineers are treated as less-than-equal because they are often viewed as idiot savants. "We may speak the magic language of machines, the thinking goes, but we aren’t business people, so we aren’t qualified to make the most important decisions. That’s for the analysts, the product people, the MBAs. They might throw money our way, but they don’t take our opinions seriously, at least not the ones they understand."

Michael O. Church, describes the different experiences of the same candidate applying for a position of “Senior Software Engineer” vs. “VP of Data Science,” a managerial position. "As an engineering candidate, he faced five gruelling technical interviews and was arbitrarily vetoed by the last interviewer. As a managerial candidate, he essentially chatted his way through behavioral questions–and was offered a lucrative position with a generous relocation package. Church argues that this difference is because engineers have low social status, whereas even managerial candidates, one they’ve proven they can talk the talk, are viewed as equals."

Evans says it’s an inevitable side effect of companies who boast completely non-technical managers. "People who have never written code or soldered diodes, who don’t really understand what and how engineers do what we do, have no alternative but to have blind faith in us. Which, paradoxically, leads to less respect, because it’s the root cause of idiot-savant syndrome," writes Evans. "f you’re an engineer who’s treated as automatically lesser than an business graduate or MBA, or worst of all, treated as a cloistered savant, that’s a warning sign. Consider your future carefully if so."

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  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @05:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @05:45PM (#83183)

    ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:04PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:04PM (#83190)

      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
        ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                  ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:03PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:03PM (#83189)

    To many managers, a company is nothing but a strangely organised stock portfolio, completely ignoring all differences between managing a portfolio and running a corporation that actually has to provide a service/product.
    Treating the expertise of engineers or other non-MBA professionals as worthless is a symptom.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:24PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:24PM (#83195)

      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
          ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
          ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
          ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
          ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
          ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
                              ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
      ‧̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎̀́̂̄̃̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:42PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:42PM (#83215)

      > To many managers, a company is nothing but a strangely organised stock portfolio

      If that's the case, they should just give up. That's because market indexes beat active portfolio managers 75% of the time. [nerdwallet.com]

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:12PM

    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:12PM (#83192) Journal

    The main skills MBAs have are the ability to sling business jargon and talk sports scores. They have no other abilities that can add value to an organization. I figured out a long time ago that engineers can build the most perfect system in the world and yet have the place come crashing down around their ears because the sales people and MBAs blew all the money on coke and hookers. Better to invest an afternoon in getting their patois down and fold a copy of the Financial Times under your arm when you walk into interviews for management positions. They'll marvel that you can "speak tech" as well as converse like an MBA and throw money at you. But as you'll be at an MBA-run company the stupid will eventually burn, so save up and plan to start your own Google or Facebook.

    It's the only path to true happiness for the engineer.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:45PM (#83200)

    They treat them like idiots savant because most of them are indistinguishable from idiots savant. After retiring from decades in the business, I've met too many of these types to think otherwise. It's unfortunate, because those who are not suffer from being lumped in to the larger group.

  • (Score: 1) by zosden on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:49PM

    by zosden (3067) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @06:49PM (#83201)

    MBA's should be the bridge between engineers and the customer. This means defining requirements and understanding technical limitations. In my opinion someone who can do this successfully deserves to be paid well. If your engineer's are defining requirements you will end up with a product that is made for engineers (hard to use but with extensive customization). It will probably not fulfill the customers needs either. The flip side is if MBA's define all the requirements without understanding the technical limitations you will have a product that does everything (yet nothing) and will probably not be done on time nor on budget.

    If you are in a company that doesn't respect you no matter what profession, then leave and let them die off.

    --
    When I'm walking I worry a lot about the efficiency of my path ~ Randall
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by morgauxo on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:09PM

    by morgauxo (2082) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:09PM (#83207)

    The idiot savant can actually make something but do the MBAs actually bring anything of value to the world?

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by mrider on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:27PM

      by mrider (3252) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:27PM (#83210)

      The produce copious amounts of fertilizer?

      --

      Doctor: "Do you hear voices?"

      Me: "Only when my bluetooth is charged."

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Chillgamesh on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:35PM

      by Chillgamesh (4619) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:35PM (#83213)

      MBAs exist to piss off engineers just enough that they work hard but not enough that they quit.
      Maintaining this delicate balance of hatred at all times takes considerable skill.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by PizzaRollPlinkett on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:51PM

    by PizzaRollPlinkett (4512) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @07:51PM (#83218)

    Well, duh. Your doctor isn't a business expert, either. Your lawyer isn't a business expert. Software developers are specialists in the most extremely difficult thing human beings have ever tried to do, write software for general-purpose computers. This specialty takes an intense amount of time and effort to do, especially to keep up with changes. You don't have time to specialize in anything else. Even pure math isn't as hard, because it doesn't change as fast. Innovations in math take decades or a century. "New" stuff like category theory has been around for almost a century now. Software changes as much in a year as mathematics does in a century.

    If I could do anything else for a living, believe me, I'd be doing it. I just happen to be good at software development and not good at anything else. It's a difficult, thankless job with no future. Look, folks, after almost 20 years with a company, I got fired, and that's about all you have to look forward to, some manager firing you to give himself a bigger bonus.

    The problem right now is that all the software anyone needs has been written. That's one reason developers are seen as disposable resources to use up and fire. Most domains now have vertical market packages that need small teams of experts to maintain. We just don't need many programmers any longer.

    Sure, there's a "shortage" of people who will move to high-population, high cost-of-living areas and work for low pay. There's a shortage of people who have unusual combinations of niche skills. But there's no shortage of regular, everyday software developers. When there's more supply than demand, and I think there is now, people treat you like garbage. Ask any fiction writer about earning less than $500/year on their e-books.

    Hey, we can all write apps! I've seen a parade of articles recently about the app economy tanking and app shops closing up.

    --
    (E-mail me if you want a pizza roll!)
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by zosden on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:10PM

      by zosden (3067) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:10PM (#83227)

      Uh... What?

      Software development isn't any harder nor easier then math, they aren't comparable.

      Software development is a team effort. Long gone are the days of a solo dev creating the next crazy innovation. This is true for most fields.

      You would be surprised in the quality of the average dev. Those that can work well with others and deal with complex design issues are few and far between.

      Even code monkeys have a place. They can create websites for mom and pop shops to help them get their product out there just as an example.

      --
      When I'm walking I worry a lot about the efficiency of my path ~ Randall
    • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:56PM

      by mhajicek (51) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:56PM (#83242)

      "all the software anyone needs has been written."

      As a CADCAM jockey all I can say to that is "Hah!"

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RamiK on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:04PM

    by RamiK (1813) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @08:04PM (#83224)

    What's the big deal? An MBA is essentially a reduced humanities master's degree with less math requirements then a single course in first year CS.

    Just be thankful that automation and academic inflation has yet to address the corruption that made sure an MBA is all that's required of management. I pity that future generation that will encounter a requirement for an actually managerially-useful second bachelor-degree like law or accounting alongside engineering totaling in a minimal 8yrs.

    --
    compiling...
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @10:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 19 2014, @10:41PM (#83277)

      As far as I can see, it is already here. The economic downturn has made nearly a decade of youth stagnant and it seems, aside from a lucky few, a single degree is just not enough to get full time employment. I am working on my second degree right now because of it. Many late twenties women have chosen the graduate route. It is a good decision with all the scholarship money available to them and equal opportunity making it easier to be accepted. Hopefully after more coursework I can find a way to do the same thing.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Tuesday August 19 2014, @10:23PM

    by kaszz (4211) on Tuesday August 19 2014, @10:23PM (#83272) Journal

    Seems the solution is to not buy securities in any company that is run by MBA style of people or work for them. That type of people can only appreciate clones of themselves. Perhaps the whole idea work-and-get-paid is not working anymore.

    • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Thursday August 21 2014, @08:01PM

      by etherscythe (937) on Thursday August 21 2014, @08:01PM (#84071) Journal

      MBA types don't seem to work anymore. They network and play golf. I have to remind myself that there is a value to making connections; without customers your business does not sell product. But it still seems that the business priorities are rather skewed in that direction because these are the guys who run the asylum and have difficulty appreciating the effort it takes to really build a quality product.

      It's going to be a rude shock to them when "consumers" don't need big companies for a whole lot, and instead have 3D printers and open source manufacturing in personal or neighborhood workshops. Their empires will crumble and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth on the Street of Wall, and rending of expensive suits in grief. I think I'd look forward to it, if there wasn't likely to be much pain to reach everyone else too. Politics is built on the existing paradigm, remember, and they will not go quietly into the night.

      --
      "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
      • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday August 22 2014, @12:43AM

        by kaszz (4211) on Friday August 22 2014, @12:43AM (#84164) Journal

        Is that golf networking necessary to get buyers?

        As for suits in grief. Expect new laws that slows 3D and open source and what you will. Law is usually the remedy of the really influential.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by typhoon on Wednesday August 20 2014, @03:39AM

    by typhoon (1283) on Wednesday August 20 2014, @03:39AM (#83363)

    The bulk of the software engineers I work with have little respect for the business context of their tasks, poor communication skills, terrible presentation, and no respect for being asked to explain something. There are rare gems and they are treated well.

    As I'm one of the MBA types I'm almost surprised by how full of biased rhetoric the comments are. I did my time as a network and systems engineer, then learned the management speak, and now speak "tech" and "manager" speak.

    You want my attention and to be taken seriously? Then step up to the challenge too. It is not that hard. Yes, I don't respect engineers that produce defective code, deliver late, with little care to quality, and need to be micro-managed to be effective. Step up and you'll be respected and paid. Keep doing what most "engineers" do and you'll be bottom of the heap forever.

    The tech industry isn't any different from any other; and if you are a self absorbed or an entitled cretin then I'd prefer that you leave, and I can get some talent into my team. I welcome talented devs and engineers, I just don't meet them often enough.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 20 2014, @06:29PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 20 2014, @06:29PM (#83639)

      > I'm almost surprised by how full of biased rhetoric the comments are.

      Denigrating what you don't understand is typical tribal behavior. Tribalism has its uses, it helps people build complex social organizations. But the inherent "us versus them" mentality creates plenty of problems too.

  • (Score: 2) by Ryuugami on Wednesday August 20 2014, @04:45AM

    by Ryuugami (2925) on Wednesday August 20 2014, @04:45AM (#83390)

    Church argues that this difference is because engineers have low social status, whereas even managerial candidates, one they’ve proven they can talk the talk, are viewed as equals.

    I wonder how many times Mr. Church's words have been taken out of context and eventually presented as something from Catholic Church.

    --
    If a shit storm's on the horizon, it's good to know far enough ahead you can at least bring along an umbrella. - D.Weber
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jbWolf on Wednesday August 20 2014, @04:46AM

    by jbWolf (2774) <{jb} {at} {jb-wolf.com}> on Wednesday August 20 2014, @04:46AM (#83392) Homepage

    Personal experience says it's a communication issue that is the biggest problem and it's no wonder. Geeks see the world differently than "most people" as do most writers and artists -- and it's quite necessary for those professions. I personally believe it is a manager's job to try to understand the language of the people under them as the amount of stuff the geek has to keep up with is staggering. I also believe it is the geek's responsibility to keep the jargon out of the way when speaking with non-geeks. In other words, there's a good middle somewhere.

    I have a good friend who was very heavy into computers before he became a manager for a few years and he recommended Leading Geeks [amazon.com] by Paul Glen. I read it and it's a very good book. It's written for the manager, but it can also help the geek understand himself and why he has so many communication issues.

    --
    www.jb-wolf.com [jb-wolf.com]
    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday August 20 2014, @06:45PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday August 20 2014, @06:45PM (#83649)

      I'm a geek who's had a reasonable amount of success communicating what I'm doing with non-geeks.

      The key concept is really simple: Focus on what it does, not how it does it.

      Wrong: "I'm re-working the Javascript on the flutzit page". That is heard as "I'm [tech] the [tech] on the [something on our website]".
      Right: "I'm making our web user profile faster for iPad users". That is heard as "I'm making our website faster for iPad users".

      Wrong: "This tool scrapes the website, re-formats everything to conform to our data input standards, and inserts it into our database." (Translation: "This [tech] [tech] the website, [tech] everything to [tech] to our [tech] [tech] [tech], and [tech] it into our [tech].")
      Right: "This tool allows us to have the latest user flow information available for our business analytics team."

      By all means, communicate with your fellow geeks using the jargon we all know and love, but if you're talking to business folks the key is to speak what they would understand as English.

      --
      The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 20 2014, @10:03PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 20 2014, @10:03PM (#83714)

    I think this is why programmers are seen as glorified, disposable typists nowadays.

    The REAL programmers like Mel [utah.edu] did the HEAVY LIFTING moving computer technology:

    from a large nest of interconnected wires and vacuum tubes

    to bundles of wires wrapped around magnets

    to spinning metal drums (see above link)

    to paper [wikipedia.org] tape [digibarn.com] and punched cards

    to mechanical switches that had to be togled in a PRECISE manner or NOTHING happened!

    to the creation of the first computer programming assemblers, compilers, and interpreters from machine code.

    After that, it was all 'downhill' as programming tools could now be created easily as modifying them and having the previous version compile [bell-labs.com] the source code to the next version to become its replacement.

    This is an iterated process that is a standard operating procedure in the computing industry and eventually led to the current version of Visual Studio, [microsoft.com] the most powerful and easiest to use computer programming environment I have EVER used! :D I only use a TINY FRACTION of what it is capable of and have used it in the past to code some incredible software!

    Nowadays, most programming is not HARD anymore...except for cutting-edge theoretical computing that is (far) beyond the 'mundane' PEMDAS [wikipedia.org] stuff that powers business and the rest of the planet.

    The beancounters know this and are NOT WILLING to pay serious coin for software developers unless their moneyspinners are at risk like they were around 15 years ago due to Y2K. [wikipedia.org] The Y2K problem itself was caused by the beancounters being TOO CHEAP to spend the additional money to allow 4-digit year values in dates to be stored inside databases inside computers. Had they spent millions back then on the extra storage allocation, they would NEVER have to spend BILLIONS hiring programmers to fix such a simple problem that could have been avoided.

    Of course all that was done was to kick the can about 8 MILLENIA down the road for the inevitable 'Y10K' crisis.... :P

    And there is Y2K38 [wikipedia.org] still around 24 years away to deal with.... :(

    The beancounters also know that all that is REALLY being done is basic math, (simple) business logic, and reading and writing files. Doesn't matter if the file reading/writing is being done through SQL [wikipedia.org] (a programming language itself) or over a computer network through Winsock, [wikipedia.org] a previously designed and coded 'network stack' put together by real programmers.

    Basically, the beancounters paid the big bucks to real programmers to create the hardware and software needed to operate their moneyspinners efficiently. After that, they only need occasional tweaks to the existing codebase. In their eyes, why should they pay real programmer wages to make small, incremental changes over a long period of time...to something that already is known to work?...

    Because of this, today's programmers either endure such unfair treatment or go into business for themselves and take a lotto-jackpot-sized chance to try to program the next ANGRY BIRDS, FLAPPY BIRD, or CANDY CRUSH and make 'a ton' of money!... :P

    Back in the shareware days of the 1980s and 1990s things were the same way--really only ONE piece of shareware from that era is STILL in use today:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKZIP [wikipedia.org]

    The rest are either too obscure and known only by a 'handfull' of people or effectively forgotten about and permanently lost for good.

    Sadly, PK-ZIP outlived its creator may he rest in peace.... (-_-) ;_;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Katz [wikipedia.org]

    Can we all just forgive him of running afoul of System Enhancement Associates and remember him for creating something that we all still use everyday to this very day?

    When I found out he died years ago, I bought a PK-ZIP license as a belated way to say 'thank you' to him because I used the shareware version all the time back then. The Windows version I got was LIGHTNING FAST!!! o_O; perhaps before he died, he PERSONALLY wrote the (de)compression code in assembler for MAXIMUM PERORMANCE! o_O; :D (^_^) \o/ Without a doubt, he was A MASTER at identifying speed bottlenecks in program code and coming up with faster algorithms coded in assembly language to break through the bottlenecks!

    Phil Katz...was a REAL PROGRAMMER....