Recent reporting and discussions here about "trolls" and the "culture of hate" (both con and pro) have repeatedly broached the topic of what appropriate limits to free expression might be.
Dean of Students John Ellison at the University of Chicago has taken a stand on the issue in a letter welcoming new students. He writes:
Once here you will discover that one of the University of Chicago's defining characteristics is our commitment to freedom of inquiry and expression. [...] Members of our community are encouraged to speak, write, listen, challenge, and learn, without fear of censorship. Civility and mutual respect are vital to all of us, and freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others. You will find that we expect members of our community to be engaged in rigorous debate, discussion, and even disagreement. At times this may challenge you and even cause discomfort.
Our commitment to academic freedom means that we do not support so called 'trigger warnings,' we do not cancel invited speakers because their topics might prove controversial, and we do not condone the creation of intellectual 'safe spaces' where individuals can retreat from ideas and perspectives at odds with their own.
While some have voiced support for Ellison's commitment to free expression (with Robby Soave at Reason encouraging readers to give the dean "a round of applause"), others are concerned about the implications of his message. L.V. Anderson at Slate agrees with much of the letter's content promoting "civility and mutual respect," but finds the last paragraph quoted above to be "weird" and unsettling:
By deriding "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" before students arrive on campus, the University of Chicago is inadvertently sending a message that certain students—the ones who have never been traumatized, and the ones who have historically felt welcome on college campuses (i.e., white men)—are more welcome than others, and that students who feel marginalized are unlikely to have their claims taken seriously. Adults who decry "the coddling of the American mind" will likely celebrate U. Chicago's preemptive strike against political correctness, but students who have experienced violence, LGBTQ students, and students of color likely will not.
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Paraphrasing an article by Time Magazine's Joel Stein:
The Internet's personality has changed -- once it was like a geek with lofty ideals about the free flow of information. Now the web is a sociopath with Asperger's. [ Submitter's note: the "Sociopath with Asperger's" comment is not my addition, but a verbatim phrase in the source article ]
The people who relish their online freedom to act under influence of the online disinhibition effect are called "trolls." Trolling is, overtly, a political fight; but it has become the main tool of the alt-right, an Internet-grown reactionary movement that works for men's rights and against immigration. They derisively call their adversaries "social justice warriors" and believe that liberal interest groups purposely exploit their weaknesses to gain pity, which allows them to control the leverage of political power.
When sites are overrun by trolls, they drown out the voices of women, ethic and religious minorities, gays -- anyone who might feel vulnerable. The alt-right argues that if you can't handle opprobrium, you should just turn off your computer. But that's arguing against self-expression, something antithetical to the original values of the Internet.
The article closes with a description of an exchange between Stein and a detractor. In meeting the detractor in real-life, he was surprised by her lack of bravado, to which she responds, "The Internet is the realm of the coward. These are people who are all sound and no fury."
Stein ruminates in response, "Maybe. But maybe, in the information age, sound is as destructive as fury."
In a rather well-timed yet coincidental counterpoint to Why we're Losing the Internet to the Culture of Hate, Milo Yiannopoulos over at Breitbart brings us this:
A warped currency today governs popular culture. Instead of creativity, talent and boldness, those who succeed are often those who can best demonstrate outrage, grievance and victimhood.
Even conservatives are buying into it. Witness, in the days since Breitbart executive chairman Stephen K. Bannon was announced as Donald Trump's campaign manager, how establishment stooges have bought into the worst smear-tactics of the left. As with the left, nothing is evaluated on its quality, or whether it's factually accurate, thought-provoking or even amusing: only whether it can be deemed sexist, racist or homophobic.
Campuses are where the illness takes its most severe form. Students running for safe spaces at the slightest hint of a challenge to their coddled worldview. Faculties and administrations desperately trying to sabotage visits from conservative speakers (often me!) to avoid the inevitable complaints from tearful lefty students.
In this maelstrom of grievance, there is one group boldly swimming against the tide: trolls.
Trolling has become a byword for everything the left disagrees with, particularly if it's boisterous, mischievous and provocative. Even straightforward political disagreement, not intended to provoke, is sometimes described as "trolling" by leftists who can't tell the difference between someone who doesn't believe as they do and an "abuser" or "harasser."
Yeah, you knew I wouldn't let that kinda SJW nonsense slide without comment.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @10:48PM
Go to the UChicago campus and shout "fuck you nigger" at passersby, and just see how quickly the police will arrive to end your freedom.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:08PM
Is that guy over there shouting things as part of a sociological research project to see which words cause offense this year? I want to check his blog later, maybe he'll post a preprint.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:22PM
You're both expelled.
- The Dean
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:21PM
What's your point?
That the U is still a safe-space for black people?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:24PM
The U is not a safe space for anyone when the dean arbitrarily decides who is acting threateningly.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:30PM
Your scenario would be nearly universally considered threatening.
Particularly by the speaker themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:35PM
Well now that all depends on the intent of the speaker. There's additional context to consider also. What if the speaker is laughing? What if the speaker is dressed like a clown?
NOPE. Nigger is nigger, It's a trigger, no warning, go directly to jail, to preserve THE SAFE SPACE.
The dean is a lying hypocritical sack of shit.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Friday August 26 2016, @11:56PM
So black people can't say that word either? Gosh there will be a lot of people expelled.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:03AM
All 5% of the student body who happen to be black people hate niggers too.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:11AM
Oh, no. Remember, nigga is completely different than nigger.
For instance:
Acceptable (Even for Caucasian persuasions): "Yo, my nigga! How's it hanging?"
Not Acceptable (Dead Honkey): "Yo, nigger! Wanna hang?"
It's subtle, but trust me, there is a difference. Apparently.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:09AM
> Acceptable (Even for Caucasian persuasions): "Yo, my nigga! How's it hanging?"
Nope
(Score: 2) by edIII on Saturday August 27 2016, @05:36AM
Say that to movies, television, and real life.
I didn't say I agreed with it, only that is what I see.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:14AM
Sadly true, theft of black culture includes 'nigga' and people are too polite to chastize the culprits. Teens get it a lot in music so they drop it like other phrases that are heard in music a lot, to sound cool. Same goes for other degrees/topics of insult, eg. speaking in ebonics without realizing it is akin to making "flied lice" Chinese food jokes; or how women are commonly referred to as 'bitches' from man to man, on the surface in a lighthearted tone. Lots of other examples.
Source: in my third year back as an undergrad. Wow.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:30PM
theft of black culture
That's utterly nonsensical. People copying culture is how culture spreads in the first place, and it's a completely natural occurrence. There is no "theft" of culture.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:22PM
In America. Depending on context and intent, people in other countries can still use the word 'nigger'.
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Saturday August 27 2016, @06:31AM
Yeah, I'm sure a white person saying that wouldn't be immediately attacked.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:11AM
> Well now that all depends on the intent of the speaker. There's additional context to consider also.
> What if the speaker is laughing? What if the speaker is dressed like a clown?
Its funny how racists think they are so clever when they are only fooling themselves.
shout "fuck you nigger"
That's all the context needed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:33AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:43AM
Still clearly threatening.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Friday August 26 2016, @11:27PM
That doesn't sound like
rigorous debate, discussion, and even disagreement.
It sounds like harassment.
Civility and mutual respect are vital to all of us, and freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:30PM
You're harassing me!! POLICE!!! POLICE!!!!!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:34PM
You are arguing with someone of such low intelligence that they can not distinguish between insight and incivility.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:40PM
How dare you question my intelligence! My trust fund paid for my admittance to this university! I must be smart because my parents are rich!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:35PM
I wasn't aware that freedom of speech required "rigorous debate, discussion, and even disagreement." In other words, it's still a fact that only some approved speech is allowed.
and freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others.
What does "harass" or "threaten" mean? Those words are too subjective to take seriously. There are many non-credible threats that are nonetheless taken seriously, and there are many things that are called 'harassment' that were really one-off insults.
But I would say it's completely wrong anyway. If your 'threats' or 'harassment' get you into trouble, then you are at least somewhat limited in what you can say, even if you agree with those limitations; there's no getting around that, and no one can pretend it's not censorship.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:31AM
Yes, because:
Civility and mutual respect are vital to all of us, and freedom of expression does not mean the freedom to harass or threaten others.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:37PM
In other words, they don't truly believe in freedom of speech. I don't even agree that "civility" (in speech) and "mutual respect" are vital to all of us. Who decides what is or is not vital to me or others? Not them. There are plenty of ideas and people which I absolutely will not respect or be civil with, but that doesn't mean my speech should be limited.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:53PM
If you are free to be a flaming ass, I demand the freedom to express my distaste in the form of a punch to your nose. Hey, it's just me expressing myself right?
(Score: 2) by JeanCroix on Tuesday August 30 2016, @07:07PM
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday August 30 2016, @09:29PM
That was kinda my point. We call it free speech, but what we really mean is you may express anything you like, but the means of expression may be limited (fighting words, causing a panic, or physical violence for example).
(Score: 2) by JeanCroix on Wednesday August 31 2016, @12:05AM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Gravis on Friday August 26 2016, @11:37PM
there is literally nothing to support this claim. i can tell you with great certainty that campus administrations detest all students (that cause them additional paperwork) equally. if you don't believe me, just look at how they treated member of the "occupy" protests. a bunch of students "who have historically felt welcome" got a face full of mace.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:49PM
Mace is the best your pussified generation can think of? At Kent State the National Guard just murdered the protesters. No safe space there was.
(Score: 2) by dingus on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:45PM
I expect if things keep heating up we'll get back to the days of the army firing on its own civilians.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Francis on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:38AM
As a white man, I can tell you that there were plenty of times when I didn't feel welcome on college campuses and I didn't get to whine about not getting a safe space.
The reality is that if you go to college, you're probably going to be exposed to ideas that aren't comfortable. All those safe spaces do is skew it towards the "majority" folks. It was hugely uncomfortable sitting through those feminist and diversity propaganda where cherry picked statistic after cherry picked statistic was presented with no context as a way of making white men feel like shit.
The strategy isn't useful, helpful or effective. I don't think that making up lies about the frequency of rape and the wage gap are helpful to anybody. And in truth, men have more of a reason to be cautious about walking alone at night than women do. Perhaps back before everybody and their cousin had firearms that wasn't the case, but in the modern era men are the ones that are generally violently assaulted, not women. And women that are raped are rarely raped by somebody they don't know in a back alley.
Making up lies does nobody any good, if there isn't a reliable statistic on the subject, then perhaps a bit of time spent considering why and the implications are in order. It's bullshit to claim that only a few percents of the number of rapes that occur are reported as nobody has anyway of knowing how many unreported crimes are being committed.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:53AM
As a white man,
Shut up, Francis!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:02AM
in the modern era men are the ones that are generally violently assaulted, not women
The truth might be more of this:
There's a large minority of violent men, they stay in about the same areas and they go about assaulting each other (gang wars, arguments etc). And they raise the statistics for men vs men.
But outside that scenario that large minority is more likely to assault some random woman than some random guy (who is also more likely to be able to get away/defend himself). Or some random guy is more likely to assault some random woman.
So if you aren't a regular in those areas/situations, your risk of getting violently assaulted is higher if you're a woman.
It's like including warzones in the stats- in warzones there are lots of guys violently assaulting guys. Many guys like "war" and fighting - many seem to treat sport as a form of duelling or symbolic warfare (by the way there's a big difference between duelling and fighting - lots of martial arts teachers teach duelling and not fighting, while that can be useful it can be dangerous if you don't know the distinction). Males of other species often duel - they charge at each other at high speed and butt heads in a precise way. If they did it differently there's a much higher chance of killing but that's just not done, kills do still happen but there are rules. Oops gone off-topic but :).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:57AM
Large majority?
You have any proof of that or are you just making shit up as you go along?
Men are 11 times more likely to be attacked.
Are all men 11 times more likely to live in gang infested areas?
How is it that no women live near these places?
When did we start to segregating living areas by gender?
You are full of shit.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Friday August 26 2016, @11:43PM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Entropy on Friday August 26 2016, @11:49PM
Eventually--We're all out in the real world. You have to deal with idiots, trolls, bullying, and peer pressure to a degree. You've hopefully gained the skills to do so well utilizing the various tools at your disposal. Supposedly "Shielding" a COLLEGE STUDENT when it's their last chance to develop skills to deal with actual life would be tragic. If you need a "safe space" you're going to fall flat on your face when you're out of college and be useless...and then proceed to make up an excuse for your failure.
We keep moving the bar for developing coping mechanisms later, and later in life. Our brains get less flexible as we age, unfortunately so it's quite a bit harder to develop them. It sucks that we all have to learn to deal with crappy people but that is simply the way life is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:52AM
> "Shielding" a COLLEGE STUDENT when it's their last chance to develop skills to deal with actual life would be tragic.
Where do you get the word "shield" from?
Trigger warnings are about preparing someone for what is about to come so they won't be blindsided.
(Score: 3, Informative) by MostCynical on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:03AM
It seems "trigger warnings" these days mean "get ready to scream" rather than "watch out if you're sensitive"
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 1) by invis on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:06AM
Absolutely - life *always* gives you a warning so you're *never* blindsided.
"What is there to fear from such a regular world?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:16AM
> Absolutely - life *always* gives you a warning so you're *never* blindsided.
Its weird how college kids are simultaneously infantilized and expected to be adults. As if there is no room for a middle-ground. Steeling yourself for exposure to something disturbing is how someone with PTSD learns to cope.
(Score: 1) by invis on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:49AM
I'm having a hard time understanding your point - are you suggesting all college students have PTSD? Or should be treated as if they do?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:57AM
Well, obviously only if they have survived an American High School, with Football.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:13AM
> are you suggesting all college students have PTSD? Or should be treated as if they do?
Do you honestly think trigger warnings are there for all college students?
I'm having a hard time taking your question at face value.
Trigger warnings are there for the people who might have a PTSD reaction to the content.
The people who have not been injured ignore them, just like people not in a wheelchair typically ignore wheelchair ramps.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:11AM
Surprisingly people who have gone through traumatic experiences, you know soldiers and the like, generally have little need for trigger warnings.
Such a shame that growing up in a western democracy carries such tremendous scars on the psyche of some people.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:30AM
Trigger warnings are about preparing someone for what is about to come so they won't be blindsided.
Reality doesn't give trigger warnings. And how are we to know what a listener needs "preparing" for? Sure, if I'm giving a photoessay on the atrocities of the Pol Pot regime, I'll warn the audience that it's going to be grisly. But what I keep hearing of trigger warnings is that they get used for really frivolous stuff. It's some sort of lame virtue signalling not a legitimate concern for the audience.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:38AM
> But what I keep hearing of trigger warnings is that they get used for really frivolous stuff.
Maybe you should actually look into it rather than take at face value the caricatures painted by intellectual gatekeepers trying to hold on to the last vestiges of their pre-nixon moral authority to dictate all that is good and right.
> if I'm giving a photoessay on the atrocities of the Pol Pot regime, I'll warn the audience that it's going to be grisly
Congrats! You are now a virtue-signaling pansy-ass worried that students will get their delicate fee-fees hurt.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:42AM
Maybe you should actually look into it rather than take at face value the caricatures painted by intellectual gatekeepers trying to hold on to the last vestiges of their pre-nixon moral authority to dictate all that is good and right.
I have, both direct experience and reading. Is ad hominem all you have?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:42AM
If you can't be blindsided now and then, without blowing up or whatever, then you are less than a man or a woman.
Try boot camp. When you graduate from boot camp, then you MIGHT be ready for an education.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:41AM
Life just isn't like that. Things happen with no warning whatsoever. If you cannot learn to cope with such things then you will fail to cope with the real world. So I think the previous poster's use of the word 'shield' is appropriate in the context in which (s)he used it.
How on earth have we managed to evolve to the state we are in today without having such things to worry about? Did the caveman worry about offending someone by using the wrong name for the colour of pigment on his cave drawings? Did he pile stones in a certain pattern to let others know that his gender had changed from being a male to that of thigh bone of a what-a-big-saurus or pineapple? No, he probably defended himself or moved away from whatever was threatening him. Why are such things even necessary today?
There is a famous RAF Squadron (617 Sqn) nicknamed the Dambusters, whose WW2 exploits are now famous. The CO, Wg Cdr Guy Gibson had a black Labrador dog which he called Nigger. However, when the film was made the dog's name mysteriously changed to 'Digger'. The dog wasn't Australian, and at no point during its life was it ever called Digger. So now we have to rewrite history to avoid possibly offending someone. However insulting or innocuous one finds the dog's name to be, we shouldn't go changing facts to suit any specific group of people. If I were to give a presentation on the Dambusters in the US, would I be expected to lie about facts rather than state the truth but explain that, in those times, the word did not carry an offensive meaning to the vast majority of people living at that time?
These things happened and they must be accepted in that context. We pride ourselves on this site for being intelligent and following scientific disciplines, rather than burying the truth and then making things up to ensure that we don't offend someone. Facts are just that - facts. People who need protecting from facts need to learn how to cope with the truth and life.
I fear that I am getting old.....
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday August 27 2016, @05:43PM
his gender had changed from being a male to that of thigh bone of a what-a-big-saurus or pineapple
This is stupid, and you know it.
Facts are just that - facts. People who need protecting from facts need to learn how to cope with the truth and life.
This person who sexually identifies as a bone, a dinosaur, a plant, a grenade, or an Apache attack copter outside of MyTwitFace is a strawman. Some people make things up for the purpose of offending somebody else. Don't fall for it. I see this as a dangerous trend in the backlash against political correctness. Somehow it has become a badge of honor to be ignorant.
Educate yourself on peoples who haven't been influenced by Jewish desert religions. Transgenderism isn't some new hipster thing.
The use of the word identify was a misstep, that's for sure, but the science wasn't there at the time to show that there's no identify about it. It's like the moniker climate change. Idiots have turned it into a strawman, easily defeated because, well, obviously the climate's always been changing! Obviously, sexually identifying as an Apache attack copter is absurd! How absurd that somebody who has always felt they were a woman live as a woman! Absurdities abound, I tell you! People have been sexually identifying as Apache attack copters for millions of years, just like those other deranged faggots!
Remember, people who are assigned the female gender at birth never go on to live as men! Nope! No siree! Everybody knows gender is socially constructed! What's wrong with those faggots! /s
Another soul lost to the moon matrix….
As far as The Dam Busters, looking this [wikipedia.org] over, I can tell you exactly why they want to change the name of the dog. They're not making a documentary, that's why. They're making money.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:20PM
But when people make such ridiculous statements in the name of transgenderism then you should expect others to mock. And people do make such statements, as you have acknowledged in your statement here:
I'm not accusing you, or anyone else in particular, of making similar statements, but I am simply pointing out that the statements from the University of Chicago are partial a reaction to this.
You know nothing of my education nor of my religious beliefs. Please don't presume to lecture me on what I should do to rectify the situation as you have (incorrectly) perceived it. I have always treated you with respect; I would expect and appreciate similar treatment from you.
Very true - but apparently we have managed to live without making it an issue for many years. Why is it such a big deal now? Its because those who are affected by it have suddenly become incapable of coping with their life without imposing their feelings on others and expecting special treatment. They have a right so to do, but everyone else has the right to disregard their feelings and to treat them as they would treat everyone else. We are an imperfect lot, some will treat transgender people with respect and some will not. For their part, transgender people need to learn to cope with life as they find it. They do not have the right to expect everyone else to change simply in order to accommodate their views and feelings. They have been the cause of this response by being so vocal about their feelings and expecting special treatment. Hard luck - their are no 'intellectual 'safe spaces' where individuals can retreat from ideas and perspectives at odds with their own.' I am under no obligation to give "trigger warnings" before I make a statement. The only 'safe spaces' that exist are in private homes - in public, they are merely a figment of someone's imagination.
My cursory look over the link you provided to the Dambusters' page, for which I thank you, only tells me what happened, not the 'why'. Someone decided to change a dog's name because they were uncomfortable with a fact from history. That was dishonest of them.
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Sunday August 28 2016, @01:24AM
Special treatment? I don't see how expecting the authenticity of one's gender to go unmolested constitutes special treatment, especially in the face of feminist doxxing efforts (before it was called doxxing) to call individuals in deep stealth into question. I don't see what trigger warnings have to do with that. Either you dog whistled without realizing it, or you believe that being born a woman with the wrong reproductive system is no different from sexually identifying as some inanimate object.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday August 28 2016, @07:13AM
I don't go around telling people that I am a male. I just get on with life. If someone is transgender then they should behave in a similar fashion. I don't need to be told - I don't even care. If someone addresses me by the wrong gender, I usually laugh it off. Transgender people should do the same. If they want to be treated like everyone else they should begin to act like everyone else. They should just get on with living their life.
I don't even begin to understand what this means. If you are suggesting that, perhaps because of your appearance, people are confusing your gender then get over it. People mocked hippies, skinheads, rastas, the handicapped, different races and cultures in the past simply because they were different. In the US in particular, they have a right of freedom of speech. You are no different, nor am I. It is part of life. Get on with it. You may believe that such mocking is rude or offensive, and I would agree with you to an extent, but that is what freedom of speech for everyone means. They are free to say whatever they want.
I will say however, most groups don't need parades to flaunt their differences - particularly if it stands a chance of resulting in more mocking and ridicule- yet the people who make up the many of those who are the subjects of this discussion tend to want to dress differently, act like crazies, and join in LGBT parades. That is their right, but either they are proud of what they are and they wish to flaunt it, and I support them if that is the case, or they are not. Wanting to flaunt it when it suits them but then wanting special treatment from everyone else is treading on other peoples' rights.
it is from TFS - that is what we are discussing.
Most people with unusual medical conditions tend not to want to discuss them in public. I sympathise with those who are suffering, but I'm not going to change my life just so that they can feel all warm and pleasant about it. If the condition is causing them psychological stress, go see a psychiatrist. Don't expect the average man on the street to want to listen to your problems or even know how to begin to treat the condition. Best advice - be who you are and get on with life, and let others do the same.
Now, how does someone 'molest the authenticity of one's gender'? That should fill the rest of my day with wasted thought....
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Sunday August 28 2016, @07:15AM
It means they need to stop being pussies.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by GungnirSniper on Friday August 26 2016, @11:57PM
Which is an indictment against our K-12 education system [returnofkings.com] that America imported from Prussia [wikipedia.org] in the 1800s. Students are used to hearing only one viewpoint that urges conformity and sameness regardless of skill.
Tips for better submissions to help our site grow. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:15AM
It is interesting how you conflate all of those issues together in order to bolster the core idea that being respectful people's disabilities is untenable.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:29AM
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:37AM
So in your view being black or a woman or having an alternative sexual orientation is a disability now?
Sounds like something we should fix, eh? Maybe a twelve step group therapy program?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:45AM
Would you prefer "vulnerabilities?"
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:03AM
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:46AM
So - the mentally vulnerable are encouraged to attend college? Really? Vulnerable to WHAT, exactly? Ideas? Well, fuck man, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR!! To get ideas!
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:33AM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:52AM
I have a debilitating medical disability and pass out at detailed descriptions of injuries or blood. Safe spaces and support groups are not the same thing. Safe spaces are echo chambers that reinforce the need for their own existence. Support groups are about overcoming the difficulties you have in your life. Safe spaces having been replacing support groups since humans are lazy and echo chambers are comforting compared to facing the reality that you need to work to improve yourself.
Trigger warnings, well, they're very much overused. Almost no one suddenly blurts out to random people the gory details of how they were tortured. Such talk can normally be predicted before it happens, and the person with poor emotional control should be mature enough to remove themselves from the conversation or ask for a different topic. Having every emotionally controlled person providing disclaimers before talking is stupid. Personal responsibility is your responsibility. If you can't handle something it is up to you and only you to make sure you avoid the things you can't handle and/or learn how to handle them. Someone starts talking about an injury and I leave, I don't whine about how they didn't warn everyone around them before they started talking.
Safe spaces and trigger warnings are insulting to me. They have nothing to do with respect, only butt covering and micro-aggression avoidance because nowadays accidentally upsetting someone is worse than punching them. Respect is an attitude, not a club or a disclaimer.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:50AM
Thank you, Sir. Those support groups? I was mildly contemptuous of them, as a young man. But, age and a drop or two of wisdom has convinced me that there is nothing wrong with support groups. They demand nothing from anyone outside the group. They don't demand that I change to accomodate them.
Safe spaces on the other hand, subject outsiders to threats of beatings and worse. Witness the reporter assaulted by a "professor" for "invading" her so-called "safe space".
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:23AM
It is interesting how you conflate all of those issues together in order to bolster the core idea that being respectful people's disabilities is untenable.
You used that word! No warning, no explanation. It's differently-abled you bigoted sonofabitch!
Now I've been injured by your hateful words, and I can't even SWAT you or tell my mommy!
You belong in prison, you bigoted, insensitive asshole!
I'm forever scarred by you. I hope you're happy!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @10:36AM
You said 'asshole' without a trigger warning. I wasn't expecting sailor talk.
I hope you're happy too !
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:04AM
And my view is that if you can't express yourself without using abusive and/or denigrating language then you need therapy. The purpose of free speech in an academic environment is to facilitate robust exchange of ideas, not to hurl abuse at one another. If you can't meet that rather low bar then perhaps you are not yet ready for what a college provides either. Just sayin'.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:45AM
And my view is that if you can't express yourself without using abusive and/or denigrating language then you need therapy. The purpose of free speech in an academic environment is to facilitate robust exchange of ideas, not to hurl abuse at one another. If you can't meet that rather low bar then perhaps you are not yet ready for what a college provides either. Just sayin'.
I can express myself without using abusive and/or denigrating language. However, I frequently choose to do so because I believe it is appropriate. There are several common reasons why: effective way to communicate lack of respect and sometimes bestow humiliation, responding in kind to abusive and/or denigrating language on the part of another party, and third, sometimes that's the only way you're getting through (particularly, if the person I'm replying to is not the one I'm trying to speak to!).
Just like any rhetorical tool, it can be used effectively or not. Here, I have considerable disrespect for the baggage I described originally because it's just stupid and highly corrosive of the freedom and value of the academic environment (not to mention general society). Second, I'm responding in kind in response to various condescending practices such as the concept of microaggressions (which is just the latest, dead-on-arrival flavor of the Original Sin and People Are Sheep Needing a Shepherd ideas), or lumping people into supposedly privileged and underprivileged pigeonholes. Third, I made a point which has already drawn a good number of responses and got people thinking.
So you are apparently somewhat disturbed by my moderately "abusive and/or denigrating language"? I'm fine with that. It means I'm communicating even if you disagree with the means.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:08AM
We're not so different, you and I =P
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Saturday August 27 2016, @10:09AM
I have to agree with you khallow, although I find it unpleasant to talk to people who try to insult me a lot.
In my experience, the academic environment is a subculture especially tailored for using language and logic.
You mention humiliation: where else can you meet unpleasant people at a party, who try to intellectually wipe the floor with you, and it all ends with some triumphant academics, some grumpy defeated academics, and *no blood on the floor*?
I'm not saying that it's good or bad that students don't murder each other anymore in duels, but it does create an environment where everything can be under discussion, where your languages skills are honed to ignore silly barbs and insults, and instead concentrate on the huge logical flaws that your "opponent" is trying to hide behind well-timed distractions and insults. And that while you only went to the party to have some fun and drink a few beers and chat a bit.
It is a great good to have the freedom to think, and also to have an environment where free exchange of ideas and/or insults doesn't lead to incarceration or worse, self-censorship.
And I believe that the worse a society gets, the more important it becomes that its ivory towers stay a beacon of light and reason, so that the flame of free thought doesn't get muffled by the fire blanket of "watch out what you say if you don't want to get hurt".
I have to say I find it unbelievable that USA universities now allow guns on campus. People are just people, and tired stressed & drunk people are just tired stressed & drunk people, and if you accidentally murder someone because they used the wrong insult at the wrong time, it cannot be un-done. Do you know if the goal is to re-instate those old-fashoned traditional student duels?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:06PM
I have to say I find it unbelievable that USA universities now allow guns on campus. People are just people, and tired stressed & drunk people are just tired stressed & drunk people, and if you accidentally murder someone because they used the wrong insult at the wrong time, it cannot be un-done. Do you know if the goal is to re-instate those old-fashoned traditional student duels?
Why the concern about guns? There aren't that many accidental deaths from firearms (cars kill a lot more people) and accidental murders are pretty damn rare (you have to have callous disregard for human life in order or similar extraordinary and somewhat heinous circumstances in order for an accidental death to count as murder, not merely be tired, stressed, and drunk). And reinstate student duels? Do you really think that's on the table?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:32AM
Let's be clear here-
Is using a non-preferred pronoun abusive or denigrating? How about questioning sexual relations between professors and students? How about creating an organization to discuss men's issues exclusively?
The lie of PC culture is that is to foster civil exchange. In practice, nothing could be further from the truth.
It is to squash dissent and opposing views.
Heaven forbid people express themselves and their ideas in a vigorous and unedited manner. Decorum has its place, but never at the expense of clearly expressing even an uncomfortable idea.
(Score: 3, Touché) by janrinok on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:55AM
And I am sitting here wondering what on earth you found in the first quotation that you found 'abusive or denigrating'? If someone cannot cope with alternative viewpoints or robust discussion then the first quotation is absolutely spot on. Just sayin'.
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:05AM
You're already modded to +5, but have an imaginary +1 Insightful from me! The entire concept of "trigger warning" and "safe space" has been perverted into ridiculousness by cowards.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:40PM
You're just not grown up enough to handle what a college provides.
Rote memorization, corporate training, massive debt, and a piece of paper that magically makes you superior to others in the eyes of lazy employers? I just described the vast majority of colleges.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:07PM
Rote memorization, corporate training, massive debt, and a piece of paper that magically makes you superior to others in the eyes of lazy employers? I just described the vast majority of colleges.
So even as baby-sitting services, they're a bit overpriced.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Saturday August 27 2016, @06:40PM
if you need trigger warnings, safe spaces ... You're just not grown up enough to handle what a college provides.
I think that gets right to the heart of the problem. That some people just aren't suited to a university, we admit far too many in general and then dumb the whole thing down so they can pass. But specifically, this trigger warning crap is not just letting marginal people slide through, it is about letting broken/defective people in.
Because it is such a large target, lets beat on Trigglypuff one more time before allowing it to fade into a richly deserved oblivion; What was that doing on a campus in the first place? What possible productive work is it capable of and what possible benefit is going to be derived from it spending four years on campus at taxpayer expense? Who would be crazy enough to hire it, wouldn't it set off alarms in even the most progressive HR dept that this is one to pass on?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:49PM
The invasion of Iraq began at the University of Chicago. It is the home of the "Chicago School" of thinking on economics and international relations. This is what happens to a university when they let right-wing nutjobs onto the faculty and into administration. Leo Strauss. Would not recommend.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 26 2016, @11:59PM
I hear ya. Right-wing nutjobs are my trigger. Vote Hillary.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:02PM
Right-wing nutjobs are my trigger. Vote Hillary.
"I hate fruit, that's why I only eat bananas."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:06AM
Princeton was also a hotbed of the neocons. If you remember the campus from the movie "A Beautiful Mind", perhaps you won't be surprised.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:19AM
Princeton is the farm for the people who have a farm. Cornell was where a bunch of the neo-cons got started. Allan Bloom, and so on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:44AM
Off-topic diversion bullshit. Millenials with mod points and shit for brain at work,
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:35AM
Well thank god the left was there as the voice of prudence through the entire affair.
The Chicago School is mostly identified with libertarianism, and as I recall were some of the most vocal critics of going to war even after Obama was elected.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:29AM
Having a policy of either "zero tolerance for bigotry" or "anything goes, short of criminal behavior - suck it up" is a disservice to the community.
What is required is good judgement exercised by the community, not just a handful of people close to the dean calling all the shots.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:47AM
Having a policy of either "zero tolerance for bigotry" or "anything goes, short of criminal behavior - suck it up" is a disservice to the community.
So why is this supposed to be relevant to the current story? And in my view, college should be pretty far along on the "anything goes, short of criminal behavior - suck it up" end of the spectrum.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by archfeld on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:36AM
Now your right to free expression is a bonus feature. Coming soon a multi platform deal where you can bundle 3 or more constitutional rights for a single cost so you can save big. I understand the limit on yelling fire in a crowded theatre, or bomb in an airport, but this is still the USA and last time I checked we were guaranteed the right to free speech. I don't like or support either the KKK or the Black Panthers but I do support their right to speak as they believe even if it is utter crap on both sides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution [wikipedia.org]
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:49AM
> I don't like or support either the KKK or the Black Panthers but I do support their right to speak as they believe even if it is utter crap on both sides.
(1) False equivalency between those two groups.
(2) You got the bomb thing right.
(3) At what point does advocating for racial violence become a threat?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:08AM
A threat is commonly defined along the lines of "Any act which is intended to place another in fear of immediate physical contact which will be painful, injurious, insulting, or offensive, coupled with the apparent ability to execute the act."
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:21AM
(1) False equivalency between those two groups.
What equivalency was made in the first place?
(3) At what point does advocating for racial violence become a threat?
Advocating for actual crimes would be a good starting point. "Threat" is too vague especially given the variety of paranoid groups and government agencies out there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:35AM
> Advocating for actual crimes would be a good starting point.
So thats a start point. What beyond "actual crimes" should qualify? Implied crimes? Intimidation?
"Wouldn't it be great if all jews tripped, fell and bashed their heads on concrete?"
"Some people think a black man having sex with a white woman deserves to beaten!"
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:07AM
So thats a start point. What beyond "actual crimes" should qualify? Implied crimes? Intimidation?
And really what is the point of your questions? I don't see the point of specifying this when we're not even close to having that as a problem. You give no real world examples. It's hypotheticals all the way.
Real world hate groups, like for a classic example, the Westboro Baptist Church know what legal lines shouldn't be crossed and are pretty clever about jumping around just on the edge of those lines. But those lines are conservatively drawn. It's just not a problem that someone says "God hates fags" or protest at funerals. Sure, it's annoying that these louts exist, but so what? It's not a danger to us.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:45AM
So, if I read you right, you misspoke and that was not a starting point, it was an ending point?
As long as they toe the legal line, that's all that matters?
In your mind the paramount principle of a university is freedom of expression. All other principles must be subjugated to freedom of expression, correct?
To take your example, it is more important that westboro be welcome on campus to preach that gay people are subhuman than it is for gay people to feel welcome on campus? It is more important that the fees of gay students go to pay for the facilities of westboro to tell them they are subhuman than it is for those students to have a say how their fees are spent?
Just making sure you are a free speech absolutist. You are, right?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:36AM
So, if I read you right, you misspoke and that was not a starting point, it was an ending point? As long as they toe the legal line, that's all that matters?
The legal line goes beyond just inciting criminal activities, such as disturbing the peace, slander/libel, and falsely shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater.
To take your example, it is more important that westboro be welcome on campus to preach that gay people are subhuman than it is for gay people to feel welcome on campus? It is more important that the fees of gay students go to pay for the facilities of westboro to tell them they are subhuman than it is for those students to have a say how their fees are spent?
What university facilities does the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) have a claim to again? Why does the WBC have a claim to student fees? Since when have students had a say over how a majority of their fees get spent rather than the university? And what again does students fees have to do with speech?
Then there's the matter of "feeling welcome". Do we pass rules that require gays to feel welcome? Just how valuable is this feeling of feeling welcome? Will it stick around after a scary placard sign is revealed?
There's a reason I'm a free speech absolutist. It's a concrete, enormous benefit particularly, for a college campus. In comparison, we have vague touchie feelie crap like "feeling welcome" or "WBC will steal my student fees!" Feeling welcome is an ephemeral emotion which can be frivolously taken away due to no fault of anyone except the person with the emotion.
And who again, who can withstand the rigors of taking classes or of teaching them, is going to repeatedly invite the WBC to siphon up student fees? Maybe we should be concerned that the leprechauns are going to steal all the student's gold and put it at the end of the rainbow! (after they give an unwelcoming speech to gays, of course)
Surely, you can with some thought come up with a less frivolous set of objections?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:06PM
such as disturbing the peace
Sounds like subjective garbage.
slander/libel
If you believe lies, that's your own fault.
and falsely shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater.
A standard invented by authoritarian, treacherous judges so that war protesters could be arrested. In reality, if you panic and hurt others, that was your own doing.
There's a reason I'm a free speech absolutist.
No, you're not. Not when you bring up that "fire in a crowded theater" example, which is necessarily anti-free speech. You're not punishing the speaker for physical harm that they inflicted upon others, because they did no such thing; other people did. You're punishing the speaker for the actions others took in response to the speaker's words, which is unjust. What's more, if they had said something else and it caused people to panic ("Hello!"), no court would punish them, which indicates that only certain speech isn't permitted.
I have nothing against theater owners kicking out morons who shout random things, but the government should not be involved.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:20PM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:55AM
Racism is racism - the KKK and the Black Panthers ARE INDEED EQUIVALENT!!
You may make an argument that the Panthers are more justified in their attitudes than the KKK is, but it doesn't give either of them the moral high ground. Racism remains racism, and a rose by any other name will still be a rose.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:15PM
Now your right to free expression is a bonus feature.
Yes. [wikipedia.org] :/
I understand the limit on yelling fire in a crowded theatre
You [archive.org] obviously [popehat.com] don't. [soylentnews.org] :(
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @12:57AM
> we do not cancel invited speakers because their topics might prove controversial
Yeah, they just don't invite them in the first place.
How unacceptable that people who weren't consulted might get a veto after the elite few have decided for them.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:13AM
Yeah, they just don't invite them in the first place.
How unacceptable that people who weren't consulted might get a veto after the elite few have decided for them.
Just about everyone has the power to invite speakers to a campus not some imaginary elite. And people who weren't consulted shouldn't get a veto - because it's none of their business.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:31AM
> Just about everyone has the power to invite speakers to a campus not some imaginary elite.
Shows how little you know. Speaker invitations always go through an approval process. Essentially all of the cases where speakers were protested (Condaleeza Rice, Bill Maher, etc) were cases where the speakers where chosen and approved by a small committee.
Just try inviting David Duke, Steve Drain or Anjem Choudary and watch them get blocked.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:50AM
Speaker invitations always go through an approval process.
And my point is that just about anyone can create their own approval process, approve their own speakers, and invite them. If you want the speaker to use university resources, you can appropriate them from a variety of sources not just the "small committee". For example, one of my college advisors had no trouble inviting an advocate for Velikovsky catastrophe theory though the speaker had to give a talk on his engineering work first (design and attitude control of military helicopters). I assure you he didn't go anywhere near official channels on that second talk, just signed up for a vacant auditorium and did it.
People forget the informality that almost all colleges have. You don't have to get a note from mommy for most of this stuff.
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:06AM
my college advisors had no trouble inviting an advocate for Velikovsky catastrophe theory
Wait, is this where all the crazy "electric universe" stuff posted here has been coming from? Say it ain't so, khallow!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:22AM
So your counter example is actually of someone who did go through an approval committee?
And his oh-so controversial belief was that the earth suffered near passes with other planets?
Are you for real? Are we even having the same conversation?
Get back to us when your advisor successfully invites in someone to lecture on the superiority of the white race and why mud people should be put on a reservation.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:40AM
So your counter example is actually of someone who did go through an approval committee? And his oh-so controversial belief was that the earth suffered near passes with other planets? Are you for real? Are we even having the same conversation?
Yes, this demonstrates the nonsense of the assertion that there's some elite group preventing speakers from appearing on campus.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 27 2016, @04:06AM
Get back to us when your advisor successfully invites in someone to lecture on the superiority of the white race and why mud people should be put on a reservation.
And of course, your post wouldn't be complete without an irrelevant, irrational appeal to racism. I guess I just didn't fully realize that the only possible reason we could possibly have for bypassing the infamous elite "small committees" is to preserve the sanctity and superiority of the white race! I'm so educated now!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @01:57AM
And, you are advocating that the nuts run the asylum? Students don't get a voice in the administration of the college - more news at 11:00.
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:14AM
And, you are advocating that the nuts run the asylum?
Strange you would say this, Mr. Runaway1956, inmate #2926! Have you checked your mod points lately? All I am saying is that this method seems to work fine for SoylentNews. Buzzards excepted, of course.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 27 2016, @05:10AM
And, how many karma points do you think I have?
I'll tell you a secret. You and I are vocal members of this community, but the community includes a lot of people who are less vocal.
There are more vocal members who lean liberal here, than there are vocal members who lean right. My views appeal more to the right than they do to the left, so there is a lot of vocal opposition to my views. But, at moderation time, my karma stays pretty high.
Oh, I take a hit now and then. Yes, I surely do, because my views aren't really right - I'm an independent who leans libertarian. So, my views sometimes don't appeal to either left or right. But, at the end of the day, when a discussion is closed up, I have more +mods than -mods, almost always.
And, for that you should be grateful. Your views are heard, my views are heard, and both are judged by the community. And, no, I don't maintain a half dozen sock puppet accounts to maintain my karma - don't even ask.
I do remember a couple incidents of "mod bombing". Someone or other saved up his mod points, and went through my posts, and modded "spam" until he ran out of points. That was rather funny - the guy spent all that time and energy as well as his mod points, only to be shown a fool when the staff got on his arse.
But, tell me something, Aristarchus. Are you here to be "popular"? I happen to be somewhat popular, I guess, or my karma would be around zero. But that's NOT the reason I am here. I would have the same things to say if my karma were -50. How 'bout you?
ICE is having a Pretti Good season.
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Saturday August 27 2016, @07:46PM
Popular? You are popular? More like infamous!! But the traditional position about publicity is that it doesn't matter what people are saying about you, as long as they are talking about you.
Here to be popular? Me? I don't even know who I am.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:29AM
> Students don't get a voice in the administration of the college
Did you not attend college?
Of course they get a voice. That's part of the college experience.
Self-governance, challenging authority, etc in college it is all practice for doing it in real life.
It is so weird that you conceive of college students as simultaneously incompetent "nuts" and fully adult mighty intellectual warriors.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @05:38PM
It is so weird that you conceive of college students as simultaneously incompetent "nuts" and fully adult mighty intellectual warriors.
There's no contradiction in saying that a lot of college students are incompetent nuts and also saying that that shouldn't be the case.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @03:52AM
Trigger warnings about campus carry? [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @08:07AM
> Adults who decry "the coddling of the American mind" will likely celebrate U. Chicago's preemptive strike against political correctness, but students who have experienced violence, LGBTQ students, and students of color likely will not.
Uh... marginalized students are going to celebrate having their voices potentially silenced? I don't know where *you* come from but...
...the students who will complain will be claiming "oh we might talk about thing that might hurt my minority friends." The visible and sexual minorities deal with verbal and physical abuse to their persons plenty. It might be uncomfortable to read about it, but it's a lot less brutal than the first person stories that are lived on an unfortunately frequent basis.
tl;dr: when you get beat up frequently for your race or orientation, reading a book in class in which someone gets beaten for the same isn't traumatizing, it's legitimizing and a chance for rational, cool-headed discussion with straight white frat boys who MIGHT beat fewer people up if they had previously empathized.
(Score: 1) by tbuskey on Saturday August 27 2016, @02:47PM
That said, there are consequences to exercising your free speech. Joke about bombs at airport check-in and you may invite increased scrutiny. Swear at a police officer and you might find he's not inhumanly immune to it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 27 2016, @05:40PM
Joke about bombs at airport check-in and you may invite increased scrutiny. Swear at a police officer and you might find he's not inhumanly immune to it.
Neither of which should happen in a country that supposedly respects freedom of speech.
Also, why stop at swearing (which are just words that are arbitrarily declared to be bad by a number of people)? Challenging police officers in any way, shape, or form generally seems to make them angry.