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posted by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @08:08AM   Printer-friendly
from the johnny-cab dept.

Authorities have reported "no major incidents" after the first three days of a driverless bus service in the Estonian capital Tallinn.

A pair of vehicles are operating on a route through the city as part of the Baltic state's presidency of the European Union, and have so far managed not to collide with any other road users, national broadcaster ERR reports [gallery itself requires JS from s.err.ee and news.err.ee -- Ed.].

But there have been a number of near misses since the launch on Saturday, ERR says. An eyewitness reports that one of the buses failed to give way to a police car with its lights flashing on Monday; while an ERR photographer saw a bus ignore a red light at a pedestrian crossing, ploughing on regardless of the "surprise" it had provoked.

Despite no-one driving, local traffic law means that there still has to be a responsible person on board, meaning that all passengers are greeted by a host. They've been tasked with explaining the technology to passengers new to the world of autonomous vehicles, ERR says.

Judging from the picture, the buses soothingly seem to be constructed out of Nerf.

Your humble editor lives and works only hundreds of meters from each end of the trial route, so decided to take a quick, and fortunately uneventful, trip on one this (thursday) lunchtime. I now realise there are some things I forgot to snap, such as what the member of staff (a) does, and (b) can do. The answers to which are simple: (a) very little apart from gesticulate to pedestrians who are too frightened to cross in front of the vehicle; and (b) very little at all, as there are no controls. There's a keyboard from which a reset can probably be invoked, but that's it. [Not so - I saw more on my second trip, see below -- Ed.]

I'm happy to treat this as an AMAA (Ask Me Almost Anything), in particular if that means I can waste time on the bus again tomorrow!


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  • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Friday August 04 2017, @09:06AM (10 children)

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Friday August 04 2017, @09:06AM (#548656)

    May require another trip, but: Does it have wireless? USB? Ethernet ports? Can you run nmap/wireshark/etc? What happens?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @09:15AM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @09:15AM (#548658)

      ummm... are you serious?
      let's ignore the legal problems: what we are left with is a reasonably heavy moving object that's already passed a red light.
      If you hack into it (and I assume it is not that hard), how do you know you won't break it, leading to serious accidents?
      I mean literally you go in, you type "ls", someone generated a thousand different files in the same folder because reasons, you make the partition hang, and the self-driving code hangs as well because bug.
      I don't like the conclusion of that chain of events, but it doesn't seem that unlikely.

      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Friday August 04 2017, @11:07AM (2 children)

        by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Friday August 04 2017, @11:07AM (#548679) Journal

        If you outlaw hacking, only outlaws will hack driverless vehicles and kill innocent pedestrians.

        --
        [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @11:36AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @11:36AM (#548688)

          I've no idea whether there are any laws in Estonia about hacking. I personally view unauthorized access to anything connected to a network as equivalent to entering someone's home/office without permission, which is wrong even when the door is unlocked.

          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Friday August 04 2017, @11:49AM

            by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Friday August 04 2017, @11:49AM (#548690) Journal

            Yes, there are laws. That place was a training ground for Putin's criminal hackers:

            2007 cyberattacks on Estonia [wikipedia.org]

            10 Years After the Landmark Attack on Estonia, Is the World Better Prepared for Cyber Threats? [foreignpolicy.com]

            And, partly as a result of the big 2007 attacks, Estonia today has a world-class cybersecurity sector. The country is currently hosting Locked Shields 2017, the world’s largest and most advanced cyber defense exercise.

            And some more context (this was in 2007):

            Hackers Take Down the Most Wired Country in Europe [wired.com]

            Väärsi has the look of a '70s rock promoter — he wears his hair long and his shirts open, and he sports rose-tinted, square sunglasses. He's proof that the geeks have triumphed in this country of 1.3 million. Some 40 percent read a newspaper online daily, more than 90 percent of bank transactions are done over the Internet, and the government has embraced online voting. The country is saturated in free Wi-Fi, cell phones can be used to pay for parking or buy lunch, and Skype is taking over the international phone business from its headquarters on the outskirts of Tallinn. In other words, Estonia — or eStonia, as some citizens prefer — is like a window into the future. Someday, the rest of the world will be as wired as this tiny Baltic nation.

            Don't embrace online voting! ... Don't embrace hackable vehicles?

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @11:20AM

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @11:20AM (#548682) Homepage
        I expect these vehicles are merely prototypes. Everything is recorded and logged and sent back to the devs in France to analyse. Apparently yesterday the poor things were being confused by a pile of wet leaves, so that needs improving.

        The real final commercial busses I would expect to be physically locked down more. (For example, as the driver only needs the manual override switch, the joystick, and the wireless (mini) keyboard, there's no reason for any of the other ports to be exposed, they can be behind a locked cover.)

        The driver also told us that there's a similar system at Helsinki-Vantaa airport. No idea what job it's doing there, I don't fly from Helsinki often.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 2) by requerdanos on Friday August 04 2017, @02:59PM

        by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 04 2017, @02:59PM (#548742) Journal

        ummm... are you serious?

        It's very, very serious to know whether such a system can be hacked. The simple reason is that it is

        a reasonably heavy moving object that's already passed a red light.

        And if it can be hacked, there is a danger of someone hacking it, which could

        break it, leading to serious accidents

        You ask "ummm... are you serious" as if you didn't know these things...

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @09:29AM (3 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @09:29AM (#548660) Homepage
      The only visible input, the keyboard, is sitting on a shelf behind the staff's seat, the one with the hi-viz jacket visible on it on my first internal photo. It's plugged into a small panel that did have a few other ports on it. One did stand out as weird, but not in a "that's hackable" way, just something that didn't make much sense. I'll take another journey, and see if I can record what's on the panel. I was permitted to lean over that seat to take my out-of-the-window photos, as I guess he thought I was press.

      You have to remember that the staff are in the vehicle the whole time, and it's a tiny little cubicle, there's no way that you'd be able to get away with doing anything suspicious in his space. The only way you'll get physical access to the device is if you're willing to add "assault" to your charge list.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @10:51AM (2 children)

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @10:51AM (#548675) Homepage
        No wireless detected.

        The control panel has the following:
        A manual/auto switch. This seems useful to get past gawkers.
        A stone-age joystick (2 sticks, one for forward/back, one for steering.
        An alarm button.
        A USB port, not connected to the keyboard as I first thought, it's just an extension cable.
        The keyboard is wireless.
        An RJ45 port labelled nothing more than "RJ45".
        A serial port, presumably RS232, labelled "Diag".

        While we were stuck in our cab, the staff from the other bus came to assist, at that point, a USB gizmo (something pretending to be a kbd and/or mouse) could be plugged into the extension lead easily.

        No idea how secure the underlying linux is, whether you could actually perform code or config changes.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday August 04 2017, @01:02PM

          by PiMuNu (3823) on Friday August 04 2017, @01:02PM (#548703)

          There was a story about hacking wireless keyboards a while back... one can imagine sitting on the bus with their laptop out typing into a terminal... wasn't that in the movie Speed? Hollywood likes doing remakes nowadays.

          Nb: I didn't suggest hacking it. Just that, well ya know might try. It would be interesting to know if they thought of that.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @05:22PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @05:22PM (#548805)

          No wireless detected.
          (...)
          The keyboard is wireless.

          Waaait a minute...

          (Jokes aside, thanks for the AMAA :) )

  • (Score: 2) by RamiK on Friday August 04 2017, @09:09AM (1 child)

    by RamiK (1813) on Friday August 04 2017, @09:09AM (#548657)

    Horse drawn carriage on the right.

    Pretty cool.

    --
    compiling...
    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @10:58AM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @10:58AM (#548677) Homepage
      Thanks. When I saw that I ran across the road, right in the last second of my green light, and pulled out my camera again, as I needed to capture the two together. Shame I was on the fish-eye, it's not particularly well composed.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @09:43AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @09:43AM (#548661)

    With a shiny badge with writing on it: "Official Emergency Brake Operator".

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @10:35AM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @10:35AM (#548671) Homepage
      He can drive it using joysticks - this seems quite common, as gawking pedestrians who have no intention of crossing are currently quite common. On trip 2, this happened a few times. This might even have been one of the "incidents" reported.

      He can reboot it, when it doesn't realise it's got to the end of the route. This happened on trip 2 too. I can tell you that it runs linux, as I saw him interacting with a couple of lxterms.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Nuke on Friday August 04 2017, @09:52AM (1 child)

    by Nuke (3162) on Friday August 04 2017, @09:52AM (#548662)

    I would describe ploughing through a red light at a pedestrian crossing as a "Major Incident". It is only chance that doing that would not end in a serious injury or death. If a human driver did that he would probably have his licence taken away, in the UK anyway. Perhaps they are more gung-ho in Estonia.

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @11:22AM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @11:22AM (#548684) Homepage
      From what I've seen, I think it's as likely that that is a misinterpretation of events by the journalist. People hang around pedestrian crossings gawping with no intention of crossing all the time, and the driver needs to take manual control to just drive past them.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @10:07AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @10:07AM (#548665)

    Did Scott Adams miss something?

  • (Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday August 04 2017, @10:32AM (1 child)

    by Wootery (2341) on Friday August 04 2017, @10:32AM (#548670)

    Despite no-one driving, local traffic law means that there still has to be a responsible person on board, meaning that all passengers are greeted by a host.

    So the 'host' has no power to stop the bus? Do they face legal liability if there's an accident?

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @11:23AM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @11:23AM (#548686) Homepage
      There's an emergency dead-stop button for him to use, but he has access to a manual override switch and joystick.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Friday August 04 2017, @11:54AM (6 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday August 04 2017, @11:54AM (#548691) Journal

    Pretty awesome, FatPhil, thanks. I hadn't realized from the article that the buses are running on the old tram lines, so the interaction with other vehicles is limited to crossings.

    Are the buses in fact covered with Nerf? ;-)

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @03:21PM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @03:21PM (#548754) Homepage
      It was an ideal testing area. There are about 6 crossings or junction-like things where it needs to be concerned about moving objects, one of which is quite a mess, so it is coping quite well, and plenty of static stuff in its way the rest of the time. It's purely a beta-test route presently, it can't be the permanent route as those trams are coming back in autumn as soon as the renovation for heavier rolling stock of the north-west end of their route is finished. Mere Pst. is an important part of the inner ring-road around the old town, I really wouldn't want these slow things (think mobility scooters) mixing it with the normal traffic, so I have no idea what they'll do.

      I'm yet to be persuaded that these actually provide anything more than a tram.

      But cast your mind back 100+ years, and I'm sure people were saying that about the horseless carriage. Early adopters often look a bit silly.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @03:22PM (3 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @03:22PM (#548756) Homepage
      And no nerf, just brightly coloured plastic.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday August 04 2017, @04:39PM (2 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Friday August 04 2017, @04:39PM (#548788) Journal

        No pictures of FatPhil?

        I wanted to see if YOU were covered in nerf! ;)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday August 04 2017, @06:27PM (1 child)

          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday August 04 2017, @06:27PM (#548820) Homepage
          I don't selfie.

          That's one of the few favours I do the world.
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday August 04 2017, @09:56PM

            by Gaaark (41) on Friday August 04 2017, @09:56PM (#548882) Journal

            :)
            I don't selfie, cause i hate the word 'selfie'. Selfie sticks are like car alarms: stupid inventions for stupid people (i find EVERYONE just ignores car alarms now, they go off so often, and probably makes it easy to steal the car). Selfie sticks are just 'the R word'.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @07:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @07:11PM (#548833)

      Yes, thanks!

      Since these drive in both directions (and don't turn around at the end of the route), which wheels steer?

      + Maybe it's 4-wheel steering all the time? In this case the front and rear probably steer opposite direction which is generally OK at low speeds (but scary at highway speeds).

      + Or, the leading wheels become the normal steering "front wheels" depending on direction? In this case the trailing wheels would be locked straight ahead.
          o It's not long wheelbase like a full-sized bus, but even so, if the "front wheels" do all the steering, the rear wheels will track inside the radius of the front wheels. Do the rear wheels stay away from curbs, or (as sometimes seen in tight maneuvering) do the rear wheels roll up on the curbing?

      Are they battery powered? Do they charge during the day, or just at night in a bus garage somewhere else?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @06:30PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 04 2017, @06:30PM (#548821)

    Are you from a land called Secret Estonia?
    Nobody knows where it's at
    Ice cream mountains and chocolate skies
    Nobody knows where it's at

    Tell us about the Creepshow

    Are you from a land called Secret Estonia?
    Nobody knows where it's at
    Cinnamon houses and licorice flies
    Nobody knows where it's at

    Tell us about the Creepshow

  • (Score: 1) by DmT on Friday August 04 2017, @09:22PM

    by DmT (6439) on Friday August 04 2017, @09:22PM (#548867)

    Nice coverage, I live not far, but have not bothered to check them out just yet:)
    Estonia is great, video game weather all year around ... also I wonder, how those busses would be able to cope with 1m deep snow ... and ice ... and ice + wind.

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