Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by martyb on Friday September 22 2017, @09:29AM   Printer-friendly
from the Stopping-is-easy...-I've-done-it-many-times! dept.

A new study published by the scientific journal Addiction has found no reliable evidence for using nalmefene, naltrexone, acamprosate, baclofen or topiramate to control drinking in patients with alcohol dependence or alcohol use disorder. At best, some treatments showed low to medium efficacy in reducing drinking, but those findings were from studies with a high risk of bias. None demonstrated any benefit on health outcomes.

The study pooled the results from 32 double-blind randomised controlled trials representing 6,036 patients, published between 1994 and 2015. The studies compared the effects of oral nalmefene (n=9), naltrexone (n=14), acamprosate (n=1), baclofen (n=4) and topimarate (n=4) against placebo.

Many of the studies provided unreliable results due to risk of bias (potential exaggeration of the effects of the drug). Twenty-six studies (81%) showed an unclear or high risk of incomplete outcome data due to the large number of withdrawals. Seventeen studies (53%) showed an unclear or a high risk of selective outcome reporting, as they did not include a protocol registration number, which would allow another researcher to check whether all outcomes were reported.

Clément Palpacuer, et. al. Pharmacologically controlled drinking in the treatment of alcohol dependence or alcohol use disorders: a systematic review with direct and network meta-analyses on nalmefene, naltrexone, acamprosate, baclofen and topiramate. Addiction, 2017; DOI: 10.1111/add.13974

Back to the drawing board.


Original Submission

Related Stories

American Society of Clinical Oncology: Alcohol Use Increases Risk of Cancer 39 comments

The American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO) has released a statement (open, DOI: 10.1200/JCO.2017.76.1155) (DX) discussing the links between alcohol consumption and cancer:

The statement provides evidence of a connection between light drinking and an increased risk of esophageal and breast cancer. Heavy drinkers face a much longer list of risks, including mouth cancer, throat cancer, cancer of the voice box, liver cancer, and colorectal cancer. That's a whole lot of cancers.

"The message is not, 'Don't drink.' It's, 'If you want to reduce your cancer risk, drink less," said Dr. Noelle LoConte, lead author of the statement. "And if you don't drink, don't start." She says this "subtle" take on the issue is somewhat less cautionary than the warnings about smoking. But the message rings the same.

The doctors behind the statement aimed to draw attention to what they view as a public health problem and advocate for a push towards better education and research.

Also at Medscape and ASCO (shorter press release).

Previously: Study Shows 3 Drinks a Day May Cause Liver Cancer

Related: Even Moderate Drinking Linked to a Decline in Brain Health
Researchers Make Alcohol Out of Thin Air
No Magic Pill to Cure Alcohol Dependence Yet
Early Age of Drinking Leads to Neurocognitive and Neuropsychological Damage


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: 2, Touché) by looorg on Friday September 22 2017, @10:53AM (22 children)

    by looorg (578) on Friday September 22 2017, @10:53AM (#571605)

    Have they tried Jesus? From what I know about AA and it's 12 step program it seems if you just admit you are a sinner and powerless he will eventually show up and magically help cure you of your alcoholism and possibly all other things that ails you.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by tfried on Friday September 22 2017, @11:36AM

      by tfried (5534) on Friday September 22 2017, @11:36AM (#571607)

      I suppose the "finding Jesus"-method might even work, provided you are the type for that. A very powerful way to break up addictions (or habits in general) is to find a strong novel reason, why you will no longer do, what you have been doing for so long. Simply, "I always wanted to stop" is never going to work, because that has been around for a long time, and you have already acted against it many times before.

      Some candidates besides religious conversion, would be death or birth in your vicinity, a shocking (and sudden!) medical diagnosis, or a novel medicine (even if it's just a placebo). For getting rid of milder addictions, I have found, personally, that just leaving your familiar surroundings and routine will do a lot to help you break them. Going on holiday is an excellent occasion for such efforts.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:57PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @12:57PM (#571630)

      Alcoholism is a progressive, potentially fatal disease.

      I've lost count of the number of people I've seen relapse and return to a life of torture (daily hangovers, puking out their guts each morning, etc.), or continue on to the very end and die from the disease (e.g. cirrhosis of the liver) .

      I'm pressed for time, but it is FAR from asking to have the obsession removed and *poof* you are all better.

      If you are not addicted, count your good fortune and be grateful you do not understand. If you would like to have a better idea of what alcoholism is about, I'd suggest going to aa.org [aa.org] and reading the chapter "More About Alcoholism" in the "Big Book" -- "Alcoholics Anonymous".

      And, those 12 steps may be simple (not complicated), but the amount of work involved in actually *doing* them is another matter all together. They are listed in the chapter "How it Works" in the same book.

      I was fortunate to be diagnosed early, before the onset of the worst symptoms, and even then it was all I could do to get and stay sober.

      To get an idea of what addiction feels like: skip your breakfast, skip your lunch, too. Getting hungry? At dinner time, open a big bag of potato chips, pour them into a large bowl... and then eat only 4 of them. That will give you a tiny hint of what the craving is like.

      Disclaimer: Thanks to AA and working the 12 Steps in my life, I've been sober for 24 years.

      I'm late for work, so will have to end with that. Suffice it to say there is much more to recovery than meets the eye.

      • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:35PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:35PM (#571695)

        Alcoholism is not a disease. AA is not a scientific source and its efficacy as an organization is indistinguishable or inferior to other interventions.

        I'm glad you find personal value in AA, but they are not worth promoting as a general purpose "treatment".

        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 22 2017, @06:02PM (5 children)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:02PM (#571722) Journal

          Alcoholism is not a disease. AA is not a scientific source and its efficacy as an organization is indistinguishable or inferior to other interventions.

          And?

          Some things work for some people and other things work for other people.

          You're begrudging someone's recovery, why, exactly?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:19PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:19PM (#571727)

            Because it's not clear that the recovery was actually due to AA. I care about what is actually true.

            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 22 2017, @06:30PM

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:30PM (#571735) Journal
            • (Score: 2) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @02:47AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @02:47AM (#571958)

              Because it's not clear that the recovery was actually due to AA. I care about what is actually true.

              (Topmost AC in this thread replying here.)

              I used to be able to stop. Easily. Forty days and nights of Lent; not a problem. Even did that several years in a row!! The years passed. When I next tried to quit, I was stunned. I could not quit -- and stay stopped. Sure, I could last a day or two, but always found myself going back. I tried all kinds of things. Exercise, keeping busy, new hobbies, working extra hours, taking extra breaks. Nothing worked.

              Then I had an intervention. I went to my first AA meeting. Found others who went through the wringer, found a way out that worked for them, and were willing to help me get sober, too. Went to lots of meeting, got a sponsor, found a concept of a "higher power" that worked for me, worked the steps, and have been sober ever since that first meeting... over 24 years ago. And the thought of a drink is the furthest thing from my mind! I don't even miss it. But, if I were to pick up a drink today, I have no doubt I'd be a mess all over again. I've seen it happen too many times to count. And too many funerals, too.

              tl;dr at first I could quit on my own. Then I could not. I went to AA. Did some work and I got stopped, and have stayed stopped.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @07:14PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @07:14PM (#571751)

            It seems that my information is out of date. The previous Cochrane Review showed no difference, but their upcoming one seems like it is going to show some positive effect.

            I oppose pseudoscientific explanations of reality, especially in a medical context. I also oppose ineffective interventions that are mainly supported by anecdotes and subject to selection bias, survivor bias, and all the other biases that come with them.

            I'm not "begrudging" the OP (the next line of my comment that you failed to quote).

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous#Cochrane_Review [wikipedia.org]

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:12AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:12AM (#571923)

              You may be underselling the social aspects of AA meetings.

              We mentioned before how rats with cool rat toys and rat friends tend to ignore the water bottle spiked with drugs.
              Portugal Cut Drug Addiction Rates in Half by Rejecting Criminalization [soylentnews.org]

              ...then there's The Placebo Effect where thinking something is effective can make it effective.

              ...and let's not forget that there's lots of drug consumption at AA meetings (coffee and cigarettes).
              So, substitution.

              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @02:37PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @02:37PM (#571650)

      Jesus would give them LSD.

      The studies evaluated nalmefene, naltrexone, acamprosate, baclofen, and topimarate, but somehow forgot to try LSD. Fuck 'em and the DEA too!

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 22 2017, @06:33PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:33PM (#571736) Journal

        Jesus would give them LSD.

        This isn't offtopic...

        LSD May Help Treat Alcoholism [time.com]

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by curunir_wolf on Friday September 22 2017, @07:59PM

        by curunir_wolf (4772) on Friday September 22 2017, @07:59PM (#571770)

        The studies evaluated nalmefene, naltrexone, acamprosate, baclofen, and topimarate, but somehow forgot to try LSD. Fuck 'em and the DEA too!

        They also left out MDMA (Ecstasy). Maybe the study doesn't have any results yet, but they have started the trials. [theguardian.com]

        In Studies to help with PTSD it has been shown to work surprisingly well! [mdmaptsd.org]

        --
        I am a crackpot
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:29AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:29AM (#571930)

        How To Successfully Treat Alcoholism With Medical Cannabis [herb.co]

        cannabis-friendly states have a new tool

        patients in addiction treatment have successfully managed withdrawal symptoms for alcoholism and other substances using cannabis.

        A 2009 study published in the Harm Reduction Journal showed a consistent success rate.
          * 40% percent used cannabis as a substitute for alcohol

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @03:22PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @03:22PM (#571666)

      This should have been modded as "4: Funny"

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday September 22 2017, @04:22PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @04:22PM (#571691) Journal

      Maybe you think Jesus won't magically show up.

      I would say: don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

      It seems to work for some people.

      --
      I get constant rejection even though the compiler is supposed to accept constants.
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday September 22 2017, @05:15PM (1 child)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @05:15PM (#571705) Journal

        and then there is the people who say "Jesus saved me from drugs!" and the next thing you know, their life is a complete waste and they are back on drugs again.

        Jesus saves? No: you gotta do that yourself. If you rely on God/Jesus/Jebuz/Trinity/Neo/Nemo/Pinocchio whomever, you are f*cked.

        "God helps those who help themselves" is the closest.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:30PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:30PM (#571692)

      Jesus is no help at all.

      The mother fucker turns water into the best quality wine. Hell, even his "blood" is wine.

      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 22 2017, @06:43PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:43PM (#571739) Journal

        Yeah, I'd say 100% is a pretty high BAC!

        Sounds like he needs to acknowledge the existence of a higher power and get some help.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by linkdude64 on Friday September 22 2017, @08:07PM (1 child)

      by linkdude64 (5482) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @08:07PM (#571776)

      More like it "preys on" (utilizes) the "religious" mind-bug that human brains seem to have for a purpose other than encompassing morality or idolatry. That being the functional application of separating from alcohol.

      For the people who quite literally destroy their lives and burn bridges with their friends and family (all for a drink? How logical is that, really?) I think the millions of success stories are quite an impressive demonstration of self-training not found elsewhere in Western society, where impulse is King - for better or worse.

      When a "successful" person with a stable life and a healthy mind and body accomplishes something positive, nobody thinks twice about it, or maybe they are even encouraging.

      When an "unsuccessful" person who has had an abusive and unstable life, with a sickened body, and a self-defeating mind accomplishes something positive, it seems they are mocked and ridiculed if they found that success through AA. I really am curious what the root cause is, myself being the offspring of a drug addict and alcoholic, who benefitted greatly in life due to my parent becoming a gradually more successful member of AA. You won't convince me that my life wasn't improved, but I'm curious how yours was negatively impacted.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:43AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:43AM (#571934)

        Amen. (Too much on the mark??)

        What galls me is the judges who say that e.g. an atheist drunk driver has to go to AA.
        A real separation of church and state violation there.

        ...and nobody yet has mentioned the pill that makes you feel like shit when you drink booze after taking it.

        A judge could require convicted folks to show up every morning at a clinic and have a staff member watch you take the pill.
        (A powder would probably be better.)

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday September 22 2017, @08:37PM

      by urza9814 (3954) on Friday September 22 2017, @08:37PM (#571794) Journal

      Yeah, I've seen AA work, but I'm pretty sure the actual "steps" have nothing to do with it -- and I've seen some studies that back that up -- it works for some people, doesn't work for others, isn't much more effective than other methods. And frankly, I'm not sure how much of the improvement I've seen had anything to do with AA, other than perhaps providing some semi-mandatory socialization that gets you used to leaving the house.

      The critical piece IMO is just finding something else to do -- and sticking to it. You can't just replace drinking with sitting around the house watching TV, because then you'll be sitting there thinking about drinking every night. An AA meeting once a month or even once a week is good, but it's not nearly enough. And that's part of why the religion stuff can perhaps help -- IF it makes you add in mass or whatever once or twice a week too. Volunteer a couple places, that gives you a couple more days a week. Start going to the gym every day. Keep piling more crap into your schedule until you just don't have time to drink.

      So if the AA steps look like something you would be willing to do, great, do that. If not, find something else. What you're doing matters less than the fact that you're doing something. But merely taking a pill just won't occupy enough time...it might help reduce the cravings, but it's not solving the primary problem.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by epitaxial on Friday September 22 2017, @12:44PM (17 children)

    by epitaxial (3165) on Friday September 22 2017, @12:44PM (#571626)

    Ultimately you are responsible for your own actions. If you really want to quit drinking then you'll quit. Forcing someone into rehab never works.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @01:22PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @01:22PM (#571633)

      Ultimately, the only way to stop using is to decide to do so.

      But this 'personal responsibility' path to that is problematic.
      The brain that needs to decide is re-wired by the drugs not to make that choice.
      Some form of outside help greatly improves the odds.
      AA/NA's plan to get help more powerful than your pitiful/helpless self can provide is a working plan for some.
      Even if it only provides a fig leaf for what will ultimately have to be self help.

      As for the idea of yet another drug to eliminate one drug as an option for addiction.
      Addicts are resourceful, they can simply switch to a new drug of choice.
      Soooo, the basic goal of the treatment path is flawed.

      Even so, it will probably work as yet another cash flow device for pharma.
      But, that's another problem.

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday September 22 2017, @05:19PM (3 children)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @05:19PM (#571706) Journal

        and yet you found the solution yourself:

        "they can simply switch to a new drug of choice"

        Yes: it is all a 'personal choice' thing. Choose NOT to go to the liquor store. Choose NOT to buy the 'drug'. Choose NOT to drink it.

        IT IS a CHOICE!
        DON'T BUY IT, DON'T GO NEAR IT, DON'T HAVE IT AROUND YOU AND YOU CANNOT DRINK IT!

        Choose to buy it, it is a choice YOU have made.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @08:55PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @08:55PM (#571808)

          I'm sure there are people who, after breaking a bone, can properly set the it again and heal back to 100% function with nothing more than a stick and torn cloth. The rest of us need casts and a crutches when we break our bones.

          Or what the fuck do I know. If somebody you claim to love broke a bone, you probably insist that they live with the broken bone for the rest of their lives. After all, if they didn't want a broken bone, they shouldn't have been doing whatever it was they were doing when they broke the bone! They chose to break the bone!

          See, easy! Let's all be Puritans like you, and then the only people left living will be people who live in clean rooms and do nothing but sip weak tea and eat saltine crackers! And then the survivors will all die from sitting too long! Ha!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @11:18PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @11:18PM (#571889)

            Saltines are for devil-worshiping witches! We eat graham-crackers [wikipedia.org], as the Temperance movement prescribes

          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday September 23 2017, @03:40PM

            by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @03:40PM (#572119) Journal

            Can you turn that into a car analogy? I'm sure it would fail just as well as your broken bone analogy.

            Okay, answer me this:

            If you do not go to the liquor store, do not go to a bar, do not hang with people who drink, do not have liquor in your house, how will you be able to drink?

            You make a choice. You.

            Personal responsibility. Go to the liquor store or don't. There is no try.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by theluggage on Friday September 22 2017, @02:05PM (11 children)

      by theluggage (1797) on Friday September 22 2017, @02:05PM (#571640)

      Ultimately you are responsible for your own actions.

      That's no excuse for not supporting people who are trying to take responsibility. If quitting was that easy, the problem wouldn't exist.

      Alcohol seems a particularly knotty problem - it would be illegal if judged by the same standards as other drugs (not that prohibition would work), lots of people use it with no sign of dependency, plenty of people abuse it without actually being dependent but a hard core of unfortunate souls do seem to have lost a psychological/physiological lottery and are prone to real dependency/addiction to a "drug" who's use is ingrained in society.

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday September 22 2017, @05:20PM (10 children)

        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 22 2017, @05:20PM (#571708) Journal

        Yes!
        Help them by not having booze around. Help them by not taking them to the liquor store. Help them make good choices and decisions.

        Definitely!

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday September 22 2017, @09:37PM (9 children)

          by urza9814 (3954) on Friday September 22 2017, @09:37PM (#571835) Journal

          Help them by not having booze around. Help them by not taking them to the liquor store. Help them make good choices and decisions.

          Alcoholics and other drug addicts tend to not have that many people around though, that's often a large part of the problem. Drug use in general correlates pretty strongly with loneliness and isolation. You've got nothing else to do, so you do drugs.

          "Just don't drink" doesn't really help, because it doesn't fix that issue -- it makes it worse. If they're drinking at the bar, they need to find somewhere else to go for fun. If they're drinking at home, they need to find something that will get them out of the house. That's one reason AA *can* actually be helpful -- it gets you to go to meetings, it encourages you to go to church and/or to volunteer somewhere...it also helps you make friends and have people to talk to or hang out with, and a lot of the 12 steps are things that you're supposed to be doing to occupy your time too. Including reaching out to and reconnecting with people you might have lost touch with. It's all about rebuilding social connections.

          So yes, it's very much a personal choice...but it's not really about choosing to quit, it's about choosing to reconnect to society in more constructive ways. Telling an alcoholic that they just need to choose not to drink is like telling someone with the flu that they should choose not to cough. It fails to address or even acknowledge the root cause. And while I'm not sure that I fully agree with the "alcoholism is a disease" concept (seems more like a symptom IMO), that can certainly help if it makes it easier for others to forgive them enough to rebuild those connections.

          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:48AM (8 children)

            by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @01:48AM (#571936) Journal

            Yes, you need to change the way you 'addict': you need to do a 180. Don't stay home, DON'T go near a bar or liquor store. Go to a games store and play Catan or whatever. Stay active so your mind is occupied.

            You need to choose to not be the old person.

            The one thing I know about AA that I don't agree with is the "you are powerless and need God in your life".
            I think I'd rather be a country music star than go down into THAT hell, lol.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
            • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @02:57AM (7 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @02:57AM (#571965)

              From what I've seen you post here, I suspect you have never experienced the pain and struggle of addiction. Count your lucky stars. Quite frankly, until you've actually been there... you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. It's like a virgin trying to guess what an orgasm feels like. You've got a part of it, but by no means even half a clue. I suspect you mean well, but your well-meaning attitude could damn well kill someone who believes what you've bandied about in this discussion.

              It is my fervent hope that neither you nor anyone you care about has to endure the torture of addiction. But, if you do find yourself there, please do keep an open mind and avail yourself of all the help you can find... you're going to need every last bit of it you can find. And that might not even be enough. I've been to way too many funerals to know that is true.

              • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday September 23 2017, @10:36AM (6 children)

                by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @10:36AM (#572064) Journal

                Im going through it right now, ass!

                If you don't go to buy booze, you got no booze to drink, RIGHT?!

                If you don't go to a bar, you got no booze to drink, RIGHT?!

                If you keep booze away from you you got no booze to drink, RIGHT?!

                Feck! It's not AA, it's not God, it's me. I choose to be free of the shitand the choice is fecking hard but I got self respect still and people like my son (autistic) and wife who rely on me. I got bills. I got work.

                So I don't buy. I don't drink. I don't blame god. I don't blame a 'disease'. I fecking man up and DON'T 'addict'!

                Feck off!

                --
                --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @05:39PM (5 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @05:39PM (#572136)

                  Please accept my deepest apologies.

                  Having been down this path, myself, I know full-well how incredibly challenging and difficult getting sober is. I commend you for your efforts and wish for you continued success.

                  Maybe you are fortunate and had not advanced as far in the progression as I had. At one time, I could, with effort, abstain from drinking. "White-Knuckle Sobriety" The thought was in my mind, would pop up unbidden at the strangest times, my skin felt like it was crawling, ... it sucked.

                  I am so happy to report that is not the case for me, today. Any thought of a drink is typically as short as "Hmm, that's new. I wonder what it tastes like. Guess I'll never know." and that is the end of it. Just a short while ago I went to a concert. Beer was available and there were many people drinking. Once in a while I'd get a whiff of the smell. In my early sobriety I'd have thought "Mmmmm, that smells good", and the thought of a drink and avoiding it would consume me. Now? "Ewww, that stuff!" My reaction was much like smelling a fart.

                  Again, I wish you the very, very best in your efforts. Realize you are neither the first, nor the last, nor alone. Documented problems with drinking have existed for millennia!

                  I can assure you that I am free of the obsession. I neither fight off the thought, nor even have to avoid situations where booze may be present. I know literally hundreds of people who felt as I did, had fallen much further than I, and they, too, have found release and relief.

                  If you find, however, that your efforts are not successful, know that you are not alone, that countless others have struggled and lost. Know, too, that others have found a path out, and are willing to share what worked for them. I found a whole community of people in AA who felt as I had and helped me learn a way to look at my life differently. And, as I did so, the need/thought of a drink vanished.

                  My heart goes out to you.

                  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday September 23 2017, @07:13PM (4 children)

                    by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 23 2017, @07:13PM (#572154) Journal

                    And please accept my apologies:

                    It IS hard and DOES suck.
                    Maybe i'm finding it easy(easier?) then some because of what i've had to give up in the past. Lactose intolerance has made me give up cheese/pizza/shakes/so fecking much, than finding i'm also gluten intolerant (had to give up porters and ipa's)...

                    Sigh... give up all the food you love and now booze (potato vodka...... shit)

                    I have been increasingly irritated lately and sorry i bit at you.
                    Hopefully this will be easy, lol.

                    Maybe i also don't have as addictive a personality? Here's hoping. But i don't believe in AA, don't believe in God. I believe in me and i guess it irritates me when i hear people say "God/Jesus saved me" when it's so obvious they haven't really changed (saw this in my wife's best friends husband: Jesus had saved him, then he went back on the booze, started fooling around on his wife, started doing drugs... now he's just an idiot i respect even less than before).

                    When my son was born 17.75 years ago, i bought a bottle of Chivas Regal to drink with him and the grand-dads, etc, when he turned 18. Feck, i've got only 3ish months to decide whether i want to even go there: wait a few more years, crack it open but don't imbibe, crack it open and promise myself not to be bad.... gluten and alcohol.... maybe i'll just give it away.

                    Again, sorry.
                    Sigh.

                    --
                    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 24 2017, @07:25AM (3 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 24 2017, @07:25AM (#572256)

                      Good to see we are back on the same page, so to speak (umm, write!) Apology accepted!

                      No more cheese? (Wallace and Grommit would NOT approve) and no pasta, either. Grrrrr! That's quite the challenge, indeed!

                      I have been increasingly irritated lately and sorry i bit at you.

                      Definitely! That's an extremely common symptom. And a warning. I like to call it "death by a thousand ants". Any single annoyance is no big deal. And, for some reason, when big calamities come my way, I can deal with those, successfully, too. It's the little shit that piles up, day after day, without respite... THAT is what would get me to drink again. Time after time.

                      In my experience, there's a lot to it, but just accepting that some things are just going to go whichever way they are gonna go -- that at some level I am powerless over some things -- takes a big chunk of that away. I find it helpful to ask myself "What did I expect?" As I have heard it well put: "An expectation is a pre-arranged resentment [dictionary.com]." (dictionary.com defines that as: "the feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult." Basically, anything that keeps coming to mind and is disturbing to my equilibrium and peace-of-mind.

                      Yes, it would be nice if things went according to my plans. Doesn't always happen. Expect the unexpected. (Except the Spanish Inquisition -- NOBODY expects THAT! =) It would be nice if that guy didn't chew me out for something that was not my fault, but haven't I done the same thing at one time or another?

                      I think that is enough to get the idea across: Little stuff can cause big trouble.

                      As for the Chivas Regal? I read very recently where someone said if they didn't have any booze around, then they couldn't drink it and thus could not get drunk. Is it worth the risk of a relapse? Maybe give it to the grandads to celebrate with, instead. At this point, it is not unreasonable to treat any alcohol as being like a poison -- in some respects it is -- that's why there are things called a detox and one can actually die from alcohol poisoning. The fact that you are entertaining the thought of drinking on your son's 18th birthday... and just have one drink... and back on the merry-go-round again. Addiction is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Don't even give it a toe-hold to start from, please! For your own sanity and that of your family.

                      These are somewhat abstract concepts that I find myself struggling to put into words that convey the full experience and sentiment behind it, please kindly understand there is no intent to command or direct, but only hopefully share from my experiences something that will soften and straighten your path. You may find at some point, you'll need every bit of help you can find!

                      Oh! And as your wife's friend's husband... don't let the clay-of-feet of one person define your total view of what something has to offer. *he* tried, made some progress, he thought he had it made, and relapsed. <dramatic pause /> That could well be you some day. Recovering from addiction is unlike anything else I ever attempted in my life and without equivocation it was the hardest thing I ever did! And, also the most rewarding.

                      I wish you only the very best on your journey of recovery.

                      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday September 24 2017, @10:22AM

                        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Sunday September 24 2017, @10:22AM (#572275) Journal

                        The Chivas Regal has been almost a ..... ...... A sacrosanct, untouchable god-like statue or idea: my son was born 2.5 months premature. In the hospital, the doctor fecked up and almost killed him (but try to prove that in court). I watched him turn black from his calcium levels being so low. Stopped breathing, cardiac arrest. Pretty much dead. The neonatal NURSES saved his life while the resident doctor almost pissed herself she was shaking so much in fear and inability to act (go nurses!).

                        Had bought the Chivas before that and now it is a symbol of celebrating his life, but yeah: will probably just have to give it to my brother and dad.

                        What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

                        (Also makes me glad I'm Canadian: can't imagine how we would have paid his hospital bill).

                        Anyway, thanks for 'listening'........it does help.

                        --
                        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday September 24 2017, @12:16PM (1 child)

                        by Gaaark (41) Subscriber Badge on Sunday September 24 2017, @12:16PM (#572289) Journal

                        Actually, it's weird: been sober for about 2 weeks now and have been pretty much fine. Irritable and bothered but fine. Today: can feel my guts churning with my mind. Keep thinking about that chivas and my son.

                        Think i'll pass off the chivas to my parents: get them and my brother to have it to celebrate with. Don't think i should have it around anymore.

                        THIS is a tough morning. shit!

                        Thought this would have hit sooner.

                        --
                        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 24 2017, @01:43PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 24 2017, @01:43PM (#572312)

                          Very much appreciate the continued chat. Pressed for time as I need to get ready for work. I find it helpful to remember that you are facing a challenge that has been known, and struggled with, since biblical times (search on drunkard in the bible). So you are looking at something on the order of 2,000 years' time (give or take a few centuries). That it still remains a problem to this day suggests that a formidable challenge lies ahead. Hang in there, I'm rooting for ya.

                          Also, sorry to hear about your son's childhood challenges... very fortunate that you and he were able to make it through. And yes, healthcare costs are mind-numbingly high... count your good fortunate to not have had to face those, too.

                          One idea I found most helpful: each night I made a list of 10 things that happened that very day for which I was grateful. Helped me to not fall into the whirlpool of resentment and dwell on the negatives... a positive attitude and perspective are incredibly helpful!

                          Peace.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @03:09PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @03:09PM (#571661)

    https://www.nature.com/news/lsd-helps-to-treat-alcoholism-1.10200 [nature.com]

    LSD is also considered safer than alcohol.

    If you want effective treatments, you have to eliminate the anti-science Controlled Substances Act.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:43PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @04:43PM (#571698)

    I was hopelessly addicted to alcohol. I don't know if it's current life situation, genetic predisposition, etc. I just couldn't quit no matter how many times I went for a few days cold turkey. Then I found a magic herb that grows in organic soil. I used an American-grown heirloom variety.

    The best part is that I didn't merely replace one expensive addiction with another. Not only is the other cheaper, but compared to alcohol addiction, the herb is like cheesecake. If I ate cheesecake as often as I wanted to, I'd get fat. That doesn't make cheesecake evil. I struggle to find a downside--I don't believe my 401(k) portfolio currently includes any Big Pharma stocks.

    I won't pretend it's a permanent insta-fix take 2 of these and call me in the morning. Addiction is more complicated that just physiology and neurology. However, the herb can help with the physical and neurological dependence. For the more complicated parts of addiction, once the physical and neurological dependence goes away, I recommend general mindfulness once sobriety is achieved (6+ months on the wagon) in addition to yoga exercises and regular meditation.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:08PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 22 2017, @06:08PM (#571725)

      Glad you made some sort of a life-style change for the better... I too have genetic predisposition for Alcoholism, having seen what it did to my mother, and the relationship between us, I vowed to never touch the stuff and I never have. At one point I was mad at the world, I blamed everyone for trivializing alcohol addiction because I felt that the price I paid for having this stuff everywhere was too high for even one child to pay. But in the end I realize if it wasn't alcohol it would be something else, so let the masses drink themselves stupid on Friday night.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 22 2017, @06:21PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:21PM (#571729) Journal

      Then I found a magic herb that grows in organic soil.

      It also reduces opiod addiction. [newsweek.com]

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by KiloByte on Friday September 22 2017, @06:26PM (1 child)

    by KiloByte (375) on Friday September 22 2017, @06:26PM (#571732)

    What's wrong with good old Esperal implants? Unlike oral tablets (as administered in Western countries) which the patient will for obvious reasons strongly avoid, implants (used to be popular in Poland in commie times) leave no way around.

    Unlike a carrot method (drugs that make you good despite lack of alcohol) Esperal works as a stick: ingest alcohol and you'll feel really bad (it's said it's like an extreme hang-over). Yes, if you drink a large amount of alcohol anyway it's likely to be fatal, but that's why the patient must be well-informed.

    --
    Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @06:23AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @06:23AM (#572026)

      (also known as Antabuse)

(1)