LeanIn.org and SurveyMonkey just released the results of a survey on the state of men and women interacting in the workplace in the age of #MeToo. The results are frustrating. The data reveals that 60% of male managers say they are uncomfortable performing common workplace activities such as mentoring, working one on one, or socializing with a woman. That's a 32% increase over last year.
To add insult to insult, senior-level men who were surveyed are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior female colleagues than junior male ones, across a range of basic work activities. The men were 12 times more likely to hesitate to have one-on-one meetings, nine times more likely to hesitate to travel with a junior woman for work, and six times more likely to hesitate to have a work dinner with a junior woman.
(Emphasis from original retained.)
A 32% increase in one year is a dramatic social trend.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:18AM (9 children)
While the majority of women aren't that ruthless, the ones that are can destroy your career rather rapidly if they have built up a powerbase, or have the social media presence to judge you from outside the business.
There are also plenty of asshole men who might take advantage of the situation or the power imbalance, but just based on anecdotal evidence, it is now a dragon and tiger situation, rather than the old wolf and sheep.
Just based off my own experience, the average women is no problem at all. Many are capable of working with, below, alongside, or above men with no problems. But there is a certain group whose socially accepted behavior doesn't belong in the professional world, and that group seems to be the one gaining more power, just like the men they once rallied against. And what this group does undermines the needed trust and mutual respect for professionalism in the workplace just as much as the prior good old boys and sleazy male manager did, and sometimes still do. But women replacing those men with their own anti-social and unprofessional behaviors doesn't improve the situation, only prepare it for another backlash when the men become too marginalized, causing the pendulum to swing the opposite direction, rather than come to a half in the middle, like equality should entail.
(Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @12:02PM (7 children)
I think we should cut your pendulum off. What a sad fucking excuse for reactionary pseudo-left vs. full blown RWA good cop bad cop.
So why aren't you men organizing and entering into struggle against the layers of bourgeois promoting this reactionary anti-sex nonsense instead of sitting around complaining like incels? You want some progressive men's issues? Genital mutilation. Mass incarceration. The intersection of race, class, and gender in black men. Stand with your colored brothers or fall!
Or is it that you men are so fucking pathetic that you agree with sex negative pseudo-feminism because you think that sex-negativity is the key to turning your wife back into property?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:57PM (1 child)
We are. But, you call us alt-right.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @04:19PM
"Lebowski! Ve cut off your Johnson!"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:07PM (4 children)
The above is why I, for one, feel really I'll at ease if I am expected to do this at work.
Not the same AC as OP, but he expressed my situation exactly.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:17PM (3 children)
I'll "at ease" you, you fucking autocorrected pervert! We all now know your "situation". Hope you are keeping your photo, and address, current on the nice website the DOJ provides for you for free!
Seems that the Eds have inadvertently given us another alt-right click-bait story, this time misogynist rather than racist. And now we are flooded with pathetic MRA incels. How do I know this? Read on, dear Soylentil. The Mignty Buzzard is the one making sense. That is always a bad sign.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:42PM (2 children)
I think the schizophrenic anti-right troll from Slashdot has come over to Soylent News for a visit. Bonus points to be awarded for calling someone a Nazi.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @12:49AM (1 child)
No, these ACs are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:37AM
Donnie! Man down!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:36AM
In point of fact, he has a very small pendulum, so it does not swing very far, and cutting it off would not affect that status quo at all.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:23AM (13 children)
Never be alone with a woman other than your wife.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:33AM (9 children)
Never be around children without other adults present.
If you think Female coworkers are bad, or random women, try having anything said about you around kids.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:48AM (2 children)
Be real creepy around women and girls: sniff their hair, touch them.....yeah....oh yeah.... touch them....tha's it.........sniff that little girl hair....
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:58PM
Didn't realize we had an ex-VP here!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @08:44PM
yeah, i think that's if you're running for president for the democrats.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:58AM (5 children)
The real rule is that if you are not alone, have at least two other adults with you that, preferably, don't like each other. That way you can't be accused of anything, short of them deciding to conspire against you, which is much less likely if they hate each other.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:46AM (4 children)
How about video? I figured that should be good enough.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @09:30AM
Doesn't work against verbal sexual harassment.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday May 21 2019, @10:39AM
People who foster at-risk children often get told to have video cameras on 24/7 in every room of the house except bedrooms and bathrooms, and in those to never be in the room at the same time as the child. Makes it pretty tough to be looking after a distressed kid.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:17PM (1 child)
Nope. The problem is that even if you have video what really matters is her truth.
https://pluralist.com/ben-feibleman-sues-columbia/ [pluralist.com]
(Score: 1) by oakgrove on Saturday May 25 2019, @04:49AM
More from that article
Jeez man, wtf.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by chewbacon on Tuesday May 21 2019, @12:56PM (2 children)
1000% agree. This is a rule I live by: avoid a shitty-looking situation. It applies to more than just women.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @04:48PM
I live by "I know the truth" fuck the rest of you and your opinions.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:54PM
This is a rule I live by: Online polls don't prove shit.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:28AM (4 children)
Now we have more justification for open workspace concepts! No more problems with being in an enclosed space with a member of the (roughly) opposite sex. Hooraaayyyyyy...
Maybe we need something with safe harbor provisions. Like, you are allowed to meet 1-1, but both of you must be wearing loose sweatshirts and sweatpants while wearing a full-face solid-color spandex mask, and no touching is allowed, and the meeting will be recorded on video, but with no audio. I think I'm kidding, though.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Gaaark on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:49AM
Sounds like tantric sex!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:01PM (1 child)
Wouldn't it be simpler to use a one piece garment such as a burka? Do they make burkas for men?
(Score: 3, Funny) by krishnoid on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:39PM
Ooh, Japanese school outfits! Fun for the whole crowd.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Fnord666 on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:10PM
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:01AM (2 children)
And you will become the president of the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:16AM
Don't do it on camera like that other guy, and you'll be fine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:36PM
Being rich and not having to give a fuck what some SJW influencer tweets makes all the difference. Short of going Bill Cosby, Donald Trump can indeed grab them by the pussy in the middle of 5th avenue, and it won't make a spot of difference to him.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:25AM (14 children)
As a male in the workforce especially in management you'd have to be out of your damned mind to be around a woman you "work with" without recording the entire incident.
After the last two places I worked nearly collapsed under the weight of the feminist circle jerk called #metoo and it's subsequent BS; I'm giving serious consideration to asking HR at my new job to start mandating body cameras that are on at all times recording audio and video for all employees in any mixed gender setting. With data storage as cheap as it is now, 50 years retention MIGHT be enough to clear the company of any wrong doing, should someone decide at age 40 an incident at 18 made her "uncomfortable" and that VP just HAS to go.
Sorry ladies, but with all the #metoo and #timesup crap going around, there are just waaaaay to many of you crying about supposed abuse and now days everything is abuse including making the active choice of not interacting with you because you give off a vibe like this fine young lady. https://jezebel.com/woman-in-tech-tweets-about-sexist-dudes-in-tech-dude-g-5991792 [jezebel.com]
Reporting harassment and abuse in the moment is one thing. I can get someone getting their wires crossed due to something said in the heat of the moment. I also won't ever stand to see actual harassment or sex abuse, anywhere especially at work. Yet everyone lately is a special snowflake and in seems to internalize every off the cuff remark. We live in an outrage culture. Playing peacemaker is a thing a boss must do when babysitting millenials and whatever the hell follows them. But with #metoo and #timesup many of these claims come years too late for the man to even remember who the person is/was and now days the burden of proof is on the male to prove said contact did not happen, otherwise it's instant termination with cause.
The sad part of this is that when a woman files an unsubstantiated claim or even a provably false report, there is almost never any sort of punishment for her. And god forbid the sexual aggressor is female while the victim is male. He's just told to suck it up and he's skating on thin ice because if he rebuffs her advances there's a good chance she'll file a career ending false claim. Best advice I can give men in today's society, if you must deal one on one with women, get another job.
The current brand of feminism is going to be the thing that destroys equality for women in the workplace and brings about gender segregated work-spaces.
I think the muslims might have the right idea about keeping men and women completely separated outside of marriage.
Women can absolutely work competently, but the risk just isn't worth it to mix genders.
We don't mix genders in sports, maybe it's time we stop mixing them at work and for basically the same reasons.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @12:04PM
3 years from "I've no problem working with women" being the default to "I refuse to work with women". The reality is that a minority of nutjobs (of both sexes) are responsible for this.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:02PM (2 children)
It's not all that bad. The incels and the women's libbers will die off soon enough. They aren't making babies because they're all afraid of each other. Those babies that accidentally get made, are often aborted anyway. The Latinos are coming - the women like being women, the men (mostly) like being men, and they all like fucking like rabbits. They'll repopulate America with good Americans with an attitude.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @04:03PM
The Western disease of anti-family, men vs. women feminism has STARTED to creep into Latino culture too just about now.
Common people don't hold to it, but their elites in the media have finally started aping what their "advanced" peers in the media have had as their agenda.
We'll see if anything comes of it... in many ways, it's harder to make inroads with that agenda with immigrant Latinos. Their assimilated kids, having been immersed in this crap from birth, are easier pickings. The creeps pushing their destructive agenda know this. This is why they target children in school and children's TV: to bypass the parents.
You did raise a good point about people who believe this crap having few or no kids because the philosophy in incompatible with that. This is why NEVERENDING RECRUITMENT of the children of the family-minded breeders is critical. Without it, the movement dies out.
Apparently the same thing happened to the (I believe) Shaker religion in the US. They were celibate and so keeping their religion alive was dependent on taking in children from the orphanages. Once the orphanages went away in the US, their anti-family religion died out as well. I think artificial insemination and surrogates are how the anti-family degenerates will try to kerp propagatinf their movement which would otherwise rightly wither away over time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @06:30PM
AS long as the CURRENT_YEAR insanity increments, there will be a fresh supply of incels and volcels.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:38PM (4 children)
As a woman in the workforce especially in non-management you'd have to be out of your damned mind to be around a man you "work with" without recording the entire incident and many women would welcome such an environment.
I'm sure the last two places you worked at should have collapsed under the weight of the #metoo movement because if your place was clean you wouldn't have such issues on any level that effects daily performance; perhaps you should indeed wear your own camera at all times if you really think you need that layer of protection.
Sorry men, but with your decades upon decades of sexual harassment and abuse being covered up as just "guy stuff", there have been waaaaay to many times women have been harassed, abused, and raped and no you do not have a choice to not interact with women because that's called unlawful discrimination. You do not have the experience nor the knowledge to begin to understand why things grew as rapidly as they did or judge it. And I hope you never do truly have to understand it.
Actual abuse and harassment occurs on a daily basis in many places and is either approved of or covered up. Open your eyes and ears. What do *you* do to actively stop it? Oh, nothing about bitch about how all women shouldn't be trusted because some men can't help but view them as objects. It doesn't matter in the slightest if your remark was carefully orchestrated or "off the cuff": Harassment is harassment and it's high time all the special snowflake men that think it isn't a big deal or should just be gotten over to get that through their heads. Playing peacemaker isn't the object: justice is. A manager who wants to "play peacemaker" with harassment is a facilitator and not a manager. And since generations of men have just said run along and play the pendulum has swung around now to zero tolerance. And you can shove it for thinking that the man must prove contact didn't happen: What we are seeing is that it takes *decades* of indecent behavior of a man to be even begun to be recognized. How many women were abused and harassed by Bill Cosby or Howard Weinstein before they were finally recognized to be the abusers they are? And how many people still defended both of them or still do today? Single instances - bullshit. "He said, she said," still defaults to a win for the He without evidence or corroboration of a level unknown of in any other circumstantial case.
The sad part is that it is only very very recently that when a woman files a claim any action at all could be expected, and most women still do not file claims in the first place because they will be outed and retaliated against. Best advice I can give you is quit the workforce now because if you can't deal with a woman as a professional you don't deserve a job.
The current brand of feminism is going to be the thing that destroys harassment for women in the workplace and brings about the end of people who abuse others. As it should.
I think the muslims might have the right idea about taking a rapist and stoning them to death and maybe we should apply that wider to harassment. So perhaps you should be careful what you wish for with hyperbole.
Thinking that you need to voice the thought, "Women can absolutely work competently," even making that an issue at all shows just how deep your sickness goes. I'm surprised you didn't trot out that you have many women friends or that you have no problems with Jews or blacks you know.
We mix genders in sports [wikipedia.org] where the physical differences between men and women do not matter, maybe it's time we stop thinking that mixing them at work is a bad idea unless you have exactly the same reasons of physical performance differences. And even then allow it if the woman can perform the job.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:00PM
If Muslims stoned all rapists to death instead of forcing the victim to marry their rapist or taking blood money or blaming the victim then there may not be many muslims left.
(Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Tuesday May 21 2019, @06:28PM
I am a crackpot
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @01:26AM
You think that she-male who said feminism cost him his healthcare was for real or was it just some guy pretending to be a lesbian with big tits just to wind people up.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 22 2019, @02:36AM
"the right idea about taking a rapist and stoning them to death"
You just went batfuck crazy with that. Around the world, women are executed every single day, for one minor infraction or another. Rapists? Why don't you cite the statistics on men executed for rape. Fifty men can line up and gang rape a woman, and it can be video recorded, and at worst, the men might pay a fine.
A woman has absolutely no defense for having sex out of wedlock. Men have many defenses - or should I say "excuses".
Every damned thing you hate about western men is true of Moslems, multiplied by orders of magnitude. If you don't like western men, you DAMN SURE won't like a Moslem being your master.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:13PM (1 child)
It seems to me that the real question is why do you think you have to try to stick your dick in every every woman you interact with?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:40AM
With Runaway, it's mostly livestock. They can't runaway. From Runaway.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:21PM
You had some interesting thoughts. Then went off the deep end at the end of your post. Sure, I can get the feelings, but segregation of the sexes isn't the solution.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:36PM (1 child)
Half the people on the planet are women. It must be terrifying for you.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @01:53AM
What I'd really be terrified of is if half the people on the planet were Aristarchus!
(Score: -1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:38AM (14 children)
It's not just the hazard of false reports causing job loss.
It's also about making wives are girlfriends jealous.
It's also about the misery of suppressing urges are are genetically programmed in. You might need to get work done, but this is not easy when your mind is filled with thoughts of filling your coworker with cum. Work is easier without distractions.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:44PM (8 children)
You're female. I can tell because men work. When men are at work, men _work_. The fact that you seem to believe men are constantly thinking about screwing their coworkers and nothing else just points out that you're not male. So, you're flamebaiting.
I have also noticed that women are constantly out to enrage each other, so I can see how insisting females be placed alongside males can stem from an intention of enraging wives.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:06PM (6 children)
Bull shit. Hormones are hormones. Maybe your testicles never descended, but most guys between the ages of 13 and 30 think of sex at least 20 hours out of every day. Except for incels, maybe.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:59PM (3 children)
I think we have here a homely warthog here angry at her inability to find a significant other for herself. She sees all her girlfriends getting laid at the drop of a hat and the rages at the unfairness of it all. She couldn't get screwed at a convention of Jewish insurance salesmen. The "incels" infuriate her the most. More potential mates have removed themselves from the pool of potential candidates beyond her reach. She needs our pity, not our scorn.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @12:00AM (2 children)
Just a nitpick, but incels are not willingly removing themselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:03AM
Correct. This is the 21st century. Sexual orientation is not considered a choice. I guess [capitalist] liberals are still stuck in the 90s when the Democratic Party supported DOMA. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to men. A good chunk of the planet's population, perhaps half, are attracted to men. Given bisexuality, it could even be over half.
One Soylentil has even admitted to being bisexual even if he's not yet had sex with another man. I think that was extraordinarily brave of him when all those who a.) have never had a menstrual cycle or b.) were assigned the male gender at birth are presumed to be attracted to women and only women (accomplishing bisexual erasure on top of garden variety homophobia).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:42AM
Actually, they are, by being such soy-boy pathetic excuses for real men! They should just admit they want to be catamites.
(Score: 1) by ChrisMaple on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:37AM (1 child)
You have just removed your arguments from the realm of rational discussion by using the neologistic insult "incel".
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:46AM
You fuching "incel"! You are an involutary celibate, because you did not join the Catholic Clergy or the Corps of Marines, where men are men, and if you push on their belly buttons . . . never mind. Incels are not incels, they are assholes, assholes toward women, and such assholes that even gay men have no interest in their assholes! The whole thing is a scam, a pretence, a folloraderadole. Incels! Ha! If they wanted to get laid, they could just try being nice toward their fellow human beings, of whatever gender.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Snow on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:32PM
I'm not going to say I'm constantly thinking about screwing my female coworkers, but it's not infrequent.
Work is boring, and it's something to help make it through the day.
I keep these thoughts to myself, although there is this woman at work who I've had a crush on for almost 10 years... I've been tempted to out myself to her many, many times, but I'm too scared.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ilsa on Tuesday May 21 2019, @04:01PM (3 children)
So eastern cultures are correct and women need to be covered head to toe in non-revealing clothing? Have a wank in the toilet stall if you need it that bad. Seriously, why should everyone else have to suffer just cause you don't have any self control?
Everyone has urges. All the time. About a massive variety of things from sex to violence to what have you. If you are so completely out of control that you cannot resist your basest instincts long enough to get that TPS report done, that resisting your urges is a "misery", then maybe you need to consider chemical castration or testosterone blockers or something because you are a danger to others.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @09:05PM
The "eastern cultures" (basically muslims) are right about women being tempting, but their solution is for men who really can't control themselves at all.
We don't need the covering. Traditional western culture simply keeps the women out of the normal workplace. Teaching little kids is an exception; there are no male coworkers in the room so that is OK.
It's fine to dress skimpy. I think it is great for single women and accompanied women. Just stay out of the workplace.
This isn't suffering. Wages would be higher. Wages dropped when women entered the workplace. Families would stay together.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @11:43PM (1 child)
Honestly, you need to go see a therapist. Seriously. Really. This is NOT normal. Go see a therapist.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ilsa on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:50PM
Actually, yes. It is normal. Like it or not, human beings are animals, with instincts and urges.
We also have the mental capacity to (for the most part) evaluate and override those instincts and urges when they would not actually be beneficial to us.
That being said, I should see a therapist. So should literally everyone else on the planet because we're all f__ked up in some way and could use help getting it all sorted out.
(Score: 2) by etherscythe on Tuesday May 21 2019, @10:56PM
If you've got hormones breaking your concentration then you are the problem, not some vague outside stimulation provided by the fact that women actually exist in real life. Maybe you need to come in contact with more women, so that you become desensitized to their presence. Fun fact: women make up greater than 50% of the overall population. You're going to run into them now and then.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 0, Troll) by VLM on Tuesday May 21 2019, @12:04PM
Some of this stuff sounds pretty coastal, in the midwest this stuff is pretty rare over the last couple decades (going back thru the 90s at least)
Kind of, very casually, although I'm not personally aware of any formal relationship ever occurring anywhere I've ever worked involving any two people.
WTF are you doing, any "real job" seems to be at least 50% married people etc etc.
Sure that chick from marketing is hot, but she's got a boyfriend and I've got a wife so as fun as it would be to "mentor" her after a couple drinks I don't see it happening. Like ever. Anywhere I've ever worked post Clarence Thomas era.
NOBODY likes micromanaging. Doesn't matter if they're horny couples or celibate monks?
Its called a date. Nobody would believe "work sex doesn't count as cheating" or similar such nonsense.
I think this boils down to "I don't wanna do stupid shit that's a waste of time nobody enjoys, and thank god for sexual harassment training because now I can use her being a chick as an excuse not to do stupid stuff".
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @12:15PM (4 children)
End game of this is sharia law. These problems will just be avoided by near total segregation of men and women.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:46PM (2 children)
This, exactly.
Where everyone is looking at the middle East going, "That's fucked up!" the women in the US are looking at it and going, "Hey, that's pretty good for the men! Lets do that over here." False rape claims, constant victimization, an inability to go outside without fear, no male is innocent without their choosing female to vouch for them. Unless you're an accompanied male, there's no reason for you to be out -- you must be committing a crime. You criminal!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @01:21AM (1 child)
If you find yourself constantly accused of wrongdoing out in public then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets unaccompanied. Most of the rest of us manage to behave ourselves reasonably well even when we are not chaperoned. Just sayin'.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 23 2019, @03:52AM
That is the same justification the (Neo-) Nazis use on the Jews. "When you have been kicked out of almost every civilization on Earth, you are not the victim".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @08:26PM
And pretty much that seems to be the end goal of the current neofeminism.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by chewbacon on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:14PM (7 children)
A woman on my team was compelled to depart from us a while back. She was suspicious the circumstances was orchestrated by leadership and it isn't a far-fetched idea, but I'll never know for sure. Honestly, I'm not too put off by that idea. She demanded special treatment that none of us guys got and when she didn't get it, it was pretty bad. She'd use words like "targeted" or "singled out" with work assignments, when we had objective data showing she wasn't being overassigned work and she underperformed on what she was assigned. We actually had documentation of reassigning work at her request and the rest of us, the guys, picking up the slack.
She eventually told me our manager didn't like her because she's female. So this is where I decided to just lend an ear and try to defuse her in hopes she wouldn't sue the shit out of us unjustly. We all feared being implicated as sexist assholes simply because we have penises and were documenting her outrages and building that data I mentioned earlier. Ultimately, when she left, it was a career threatening situation that made her want to get reassigned. After her departure she accused me of "knowing what went down" when I really didn't and still don't know of anyone working against her. I used that as my opportunity to put her off with a "I don't appreciate being accused of that when I've been nothing but supportive of you professionally and personally," and that was the last time I heard from her. Good riddance she was a goddamn loose cannon with a thirst for minced balls.
Her underperformance was, of course, nothing to do with gender but her just being a shitty entitled worker. We replaced her with a millennial female who works much harder.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:29PM (6 children)
That could be, but I've had work situations where I received substantially less support and worse training than other employees while being expected to meet the same standards. I'm sure that I looked like that woman, but in truth, it was nearly entirely the fault of incompetent managers. To meet the standards I would have had to have been working 16 hour days whereas the coworkers had already had ages to build up the necessary material to get all their stuff done during their shift.
The data might well have shown that, but this could just as easily be a training problem by the company.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:14PM (2 children)
I might empathize with that. In fact, I can empathize with that. But, it's not a male-female thing. The assholes don't give us guys any training, either. You just got to pay your dues. Eat shit for five years, then they start tossing you a balogna sandwich now and then. If you show proper gratitude for the balogna, they'll give you more of it. Five years of nasty balogna, you might actually get a hamburger on occassion. Don't forget to show gratitude!! Hell, I've got it made, today. Now and then I get a bacon and mushroom burger!! The rest of those assholes go down to the steakhouse for lunch.
So, the question is - have you paid your dues? If so - how?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snow on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:49PM (1 child)
There's training, and there's hand holding, and some people don't seem to know the difference. If your job is to solve problems (ie. you don't make near minimum wage), don't expect a nice step-by-step document to answer all your questions -- It's your job to create that document.
I'm an expert in my specific field, but it's not because I was trained to that level. It's because I was given 1-2 weeks of training (job shadowing), and then taught myself from there. I play in test and qa environments and make ALL THE MISTAKES. I ask Dr Google when I don't know something. I try out new things that sometimes work, other times not. I seriously think that being an expert is more about knowing what doesn't work, rather than what does work.
Other people just look at the document store, don't find an answer to their problem, and throw their hands in the air.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:20PM
Expert.... Ex spurt
A drip that has been under pressure
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:30PM (2 children)
I have experienced the same exact situations. Less support, no training, expected to meet the same standards. Working for incompetent managers. Working ridiculous hours to catch up to others who have built up knowledge over years (decades sometimes). Not being part of the "in crowd" and trying hard to fit in with mixed results.
I'm a male. It happens to many of us, regardless of gender.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @11:48PM (1 child)
I was going to say "That sounds really familiar! That's exactly how I went through it."
Then I hit the last line, and went "no shit.."
This is what men go through. Women continually espouse how it's unacceptable. If it's _hard_, it's unacceptable work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @02:23AM
have dumped me in the deep end without a paddle.
I had *ONE* female manager who didn't, although based on her conduct with other employees that was how she was with everyone. One of the few managers I ever had that would put in line worker time if we couldn't keep up, because in the end it was her responsibility and she lead by example.
She ended up getting reassigned departments during management upheaval and then transferred to a location closer to her home. She'd done all that and been commuting 2x as far as anyone else, getting there earlier and leaving later than anyone in the department.
Her boss in turn, also a woman, fucked off at work and finally got transferred to a better management position, abandoning the whole location with a few days notice. It was a pretty sloppily managed company overall, and they have since declared bankruptcy. Once a fortune 500 business too.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by inertnet on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:45PM (1 child)
The sad part is that the problem is probably not with that 60%, but with a predatory minority of the other 40%.
The difficult part is that for women it's probably very hard to predict to which of those three groups any male coworker belongs.
More sadness: women used to be the only victims, but now men are becoming victims as well. Not from abuse, but from (the prospect of) false accusations.
On the plus side, as a result of all this, there's got to be less harassment in the workplace nowadays.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Freeman on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:28PM
Tell that to Uber.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @01:53PM (8 children)
In 2016 I worked at a small startup where a sexual harassment claim nearly put the company out of business. The whole thing happened at a really critical time, and was a massive strain on resources. Between all the investigating, meetings with lawyers, and office gossip caused by it the company spent more time focusing on the allegation than anything else. At the end of it, nobody was really sure what happened or who to blame. Some of the allegations turned out to be very plausible but there was no evidence or witnesses. At the end, neither side could prove anything, both employees were let go, and a small settlement was made out of court.
Following that, management became very hesitant to hire females. The shear amount of time and money spent investigating whether the allegations were true had almost put the company out of business. It was thought the most reliable way to prevent it from happening again was to avoid hiring females.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:03PM (2 children)
Wouldn't this almost immediately provoke a different lawsuit over hiring discrimination?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:18PM
Generalized hiring discrimination is probably harder to prove and less likely to occur, especially in smaller shops.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:55PM
The vast majority of companies will simply ghost candidates that don't fit their bill, even without any malicious intent. So who's going to sue? The women who don't get any response to their application?
Seems to me the only people who are in a position to sue are either:
1. A manager willing to incriminate themselves;
2. An employee willing to risk being fired for speaking out;
3. An HR person with a soul
I don't know which is rarer.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:10PM (1 child)
Or they could have stopped hiring males.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:30PM
No they couldn't.
Men aren't sue-happy. Men get the work done.
(Score: 4, Disagree) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:36PM (2 children)
It is possible for men and women to work together, and for the inherent sexual tensions to be managed. Everyone should have learned acceptable behavior from high school and their parents. Admittedly, lots of families suffer from various degrees of dysfunction and tragedy. All the more reason high school is needed to pick up the slack. Sadly, sex ed class in high school is a political football, grudgingly offered and too often mangled to conform to many opposing agendas. It's one of the casualties of society's squeamishness and repressiveness about all things sexual.
How depressingly typical of management to decide that the best course of action is to kick out one gender. Let's fix a roof leak by burning down the house. So the next time an employee causes trouble, perhaps over being allowed to observe their particular religious holidays, is management going to decide never to hire any members of that particular denomination? No Catholics, or Southern Baptists, or Shiite Muslims, or followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or, let's not be picky, no monotheists! The brush can't be too broad. No Christians, Muslims, Jews, or FSMers!
Reminds me of the policy at one of the places I've worked. Their policy was that there shall be no relationships between employees. Causes too much trouble in the workplace. Any two employees that start dating one another were to be terminated. Got to confine your romancing to people who don't work for your employer.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @11:58PM
Absolute failure to equate a situation, check. Not giving everything to women, even when they rage uncontrollably, check. Espousing the benefits of the situation that nearly burnt your house down, check. Claiming that removing a repetitively bad factor is equavalent to burning your house down, check.
You must be female.
Sounds like the point of this story was that to fix the house burning down they removed items that they have personal experience with being flammable.
Did you know, it's national Rape Accusation Day?
You mean like the Westboro Baptist Church? In fact, I consider the WBC _less_ detrimental to society than too many women. So yes, lets exclude the WBC members as well.
I'm betting that there was no such relationship between the accused and the accuser. Revenge, power, the accuser accuses. The accused is then guilty by default and the accuser is rewarded. (With no evidence, the accused was terminated, and the accuser was paid off.) That is the whole problem -- women _benefit_ from making these accusations. The accused _always_ suffers. There is no case in which this is bad for _women_ specifically. As they're a special group, let them be treated specially -> not at all.
(Score: 1) by ChrisMaple on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:53AM
Are you kidding? Sex education is mechanics, biology, and pornography.
What's needed is training in ethics and Emily Post style manners.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:21PM (6 children)
You can either paint a group as the enemy or have them treat you in a decent manner. You don't get to have both.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by Chocolate on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:05PM (4 children)
Then if a group has targeted me as an enemy they can't expect for me to treat them decently?
Bit-choco-coin anyone?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:33PM
Not reasonably, no. If you shit on someone it's absurd expect them to have a kindly predisposition towards you. Mostly they're going to want to return the favor.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:47PM (2 children)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well."
You cannot control how they treat you. You can control how you treat them. Of course it depends on how you define, "decently."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:45AM (1 child)
Of course that leaves you blind, toothless, and standing in the rain naked and bruised.
Fuck turning the other cheek.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @07:51AM
And this is why the Republican Party, Trump and Pence and Turtleneckman included, have abandoned Christianity. Jesus is for suckers! Only the strong will prevail! If they can lie enough! And avoid supoenas, and perjury, and breaking the Social Contract of the Mighty Khallow!!!!!!
(Score: 2) by Snow on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:53PM
Well said, Buzzy!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Kilo110 on Tuesday May 21 2019, @02:45PM
I don't mind putting in the time and effort to help someone else up. But if it risks my personal reputation and livelihood, no thanks. It's just not worth it.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by splenolymph on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:00PM (3 children)
I'm just uncomfortable working with A-holes. Alas, there are just as many man A-holes and women A-holes, and people seem to give a pass to both in different ways.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:37PM
You're uncomfortable working period then. There are pretty much always going to be assholes. Learning to be able to work with them anyway is just part of growing up.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @03:48PM (1 child)
But the male and female A-holes have different weapons at their disposal.
The female A-holes have **all** those of the male A-holes **plus** this double-standard "he said, she said" bullshit that *could* in the worst case land you in jail, or at least lose your job and tarnish your name to get a new job.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:00PM
If what you say is true, then the problem is in the legal system.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @04:46PM (4 children)
I've mentored a number of people in my 30+ year career, both men and women. I've always enjoyed that role of teaching people and helping them along in their careers. I had some great mentors myself. I've also worked professionally with many women and never had any problems by following two simple rules: 1)mind your own business; 2) keep your hands to yourself. Unfortunately that is not enough in an age where merely speaking to or smiling at a woman is considered sexual harassment and where a single tweet from a lone woman can ruin a man's career. Count me as part of the 60%. I will only converse with a woman in an open space, and preferably with at least one other person present. I will only do work lunches/dinners, after-hours work and travel in a group setting. And I will definitely not be mentoring any women unless my employer forces me to. If women need mentors, perhaps they should write to Gillette.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @05:25PM
And what does Wyoming have to do with this topic?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 21 2019, @07:49PM (2 children)
[Citation needed]
(Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 22 2019, @03:01AM
If you've never witnessed an instance of a female exploding for no apparent reason, you've been sleeping. Try "I can open my own doors!" I've related an instance on SN before about a California women's libber who went nuts on me - then couldn't open the door.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 22 2019, @10:17PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till [wikipedia.org]