'We just don't see enough normal skin':
Filters have become a popular way to alter photographs, especially for those keen to keep up with increasingly high beauty standards in the world of social media.
A recent survey, carried out by Girlguiding, found a third of girls and young women will not post selfies online without using a filter to change their appearance.
Thirty-nine percent of the 1,473 respondents, aged 11-21, said they felt upset that they could not look the same in real life as they did online.
The survey results mirror the worries of make-up artist and curve model Sasha Pallari, who recently launched the hashtag #filterdrop in the hope of seeing "more real skin" on Instagram.
"I just thought, 'does anybody realise how dangerous this is?'" she said, recounting the moment she spotted a global beauty brand had reposted filtered content from an influencer advertising its products.
"I don't want children to grow up thinking they are not good enough because of what they see on social media."
[...] Responding to the comments, Miss Pallari said: "It's a shame there's still not enough acknowledgement of how dangerous face-changing and face-morphing filters are, regardless of being shown in the Effects Gallery or not. They can still be found really easily just by tying in simple words like 'beautiful'.
"Filters are most commonly used via the creators and the influencers with the largest platforms, which reach far more impressionable people from their stories than by searching for a filter.
"I hope it's not long until responsibility is taken for how much slimming down a nose in less than five seconds is causing prolific damage to our confidence."
(Score: 4, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Monday September 14 2020, @12:25PM (73 children)
WTF is a "curve model?"
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Mojibake Tengu on Monday September 14 2020, @12:38PM
https://www.curve-models.com/ [curve-models.com]
A new kind of culture, Influencers.
Rust programming language offends both my Intelligence and my Spirit.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Monday September 14 2020, @12:48PM (60 children)
Models with body weight that falls outside one standard deviation of the mean average body weight for target population?
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(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @01:24PM (1 child)
No. Rather: any model that isn't at least borderline anorexic, according to medical definition. (slow change is starting, but it hasn't happened yet)
BTW nitpick: according to your definition - missing a specification of the side of the curve - Eliana Ramos was a curve model for the US market ;-)) Concave curves, I guess ...
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:36AM
"Anorexic", a bastardization of "Anorexia nervosa", is a medical diagnosis, not to be diluted by misuse of the term when referring to someone who happens to be thinner than average for whatever other reason.
Stop referring to all thin women as "anorexic"- sadly it's creating anxiety and many other body image and self-worth disorders.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @01:27PM
Have you seen the target population? All traditional models fall outside one standard deviation of the mean average body weight.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Monday September 14 2020, @01:35PM (56 children)
We're in the middle of an obesity epidemic that was already killing people before covid. With covid, the #1 "underlying condition" is obesity - lungs that are already at their capacity before covid just can't support life.
We were able to reduce smoking rates from their peak of 56% of the population by shaming smokers. It's the most powerful weapon we have, because fear of death isn't going to work - "I won't die tomorrow, so im not quitting today."
And yet political correctness means we abandon the best tool for the job? Fat-shaming works. It motivates those at greatest risk to get bariatric surgery, which, with proper follow up support, saves lives.
"Curve models" make people think that being a waddling ticking heart attack is okay. It's not, and they need to be cancelled, same as most "influencers." Or maybe sued out of existence by followers who bought into their message that obesity is okay, and ended up with avoidable cardiovascular disease.
Profiting off encouraging people to stay obese is as morally wrong as selling cigarettes. Both kill.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Monday September 14 2020, @02:25PM
On the other hand, nobody ever died from excessive abstinence from cigarettes. Smoking never happens in someone consuming an otherwise healthy amount of tobacco, even if they do have an underlying medical condition. At the same time, there would be severe civil and criminal penalties for a manufacturer if they snuck tobacco into their products.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @02:39PM
Smoking protects against covid and obesity. Indeed, the obesity epidemic was *caused* by the antismoking crusade + the food pyramid...
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday September 14 2020, @03:06PM (9 children)
Exactly. I personally use military BMI calculator and consider anybody who does not have normal BMI simply fat.
https://www.calculator.net/army-body-fat-calculator.html [calculator.net]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by RamiK on Monday September 14 2020, @04:32PM (8 children)
1. Don't use BMI. Use bf%.
2. Use the calculator variant from that same site that actually references the original research and methods by Jackson and Pollock: https://www.calculator.net/body-fat-calculator.html [calculator.net]
3. The bf% recommended by medicine research falls on the cutoff between "fit" and "athlete". The Army and Navy recommend at the cutoff between "fit" and "average". Models* and bodybuilders are between in the middle of "athlete" or just above the cutoff to "essential". Eating disorders borderline or on "essential". Some bodybuilders and athletes will take diacritics and enter the "essential" region just before competitions, shows or weigh-ins. Many strength athletes maintain at or above 20bf% ("average" or even "obese") around the year and take diacritics before weigh-ins to improve their bw-to-lift ratios.
* not "curve" :D
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(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday September 14 2020, @04:48PM (7 children)
I think you're meaning to use the word "diuretics", not "diacritics".
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Monday September 14 2020, @05:52PM (1 child)
I my defense, the spell check for "diaretics" is a trick multiple choice question:
1. diuretics
2. diabetics
3. diacritics
4. dietetics
If I just stopped at #1 it would have been fine but since I pronounce it as "dia" like in #2-3, I ended up "narrowing it down" to those and since I know how to spell diabetic...
Well, at least I didn't click #4 since it has "diet" in it. Was contemplating that one... :D
compiling...
(Score: 3, Funny) by nitehawk214 on Monday September 14 2020, @06:15PM
Speaking of bullshit sciences...
5. dianetics
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 4, Funny) by Dr Spin on Monday September 14 2020, @06:37PM (4 children)
I think you're meaning to use the word "diuretics", not "diacritics".
You probably don't understand how many health problems are caused by umlauts.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday September 14 2020, @06:46PM (2 children)
That's a frightening thought. I don't understand the usage of umlauts, but I could imagine a lot of crazy things. There's certainly enough words in the English language that have multiple meanings and can cause confusion.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday September 14 2020, @06:49PM
I'll also, preemptively slap the Whoosh tag here . . . an umlaut being a diacritic notation.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Rich on Monday September 14 2020, @07:57PM
Too löud music can be harmful to your ears, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_umlaut [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Monday September 14 2020, @08:48PM
And macarons...
compiling...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday September 14 2020, @04:22PM (34 children)
What was going on with Heroin Chic models was beyond fat shaming, that was skeletal glamourization and the (few) who achieved those ideals were even more unhealthy than the simply obese.
I do believe we should be shaming unhealthy levels of fat, not that being morbidly obese makes anyone "less of a person" but - it's a clear sign that they don't care for their own health. With cigarettes, at least there was the added factor of: not only do you not care for your health, but you are also negatively impacting mine. With obesity, except when seated in coach on an aircraft, no such impingement upon the health of others is occurring.
I am reminded of a gentleman I knew who was probably 5'6" 350lbs with crooked teeth, who had (obvious) self esteem issues. What does he choose to address first? Of course he's contemplating braces. Now, we were acquainted through a newly minted M.D. who had no problem telling him: "Why not address the weight first?" but, with the bedside manner of a meter maid, this made little headway. At age 29, the goal of our rotund friend was to become more attractive to potential mates, and regardless of his girth - simply losing the weight and feeling better about himself as a result would have been the biggest boost to his overall attractiveness, but it was a very difficult sell.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Monday September 14 2020, @10:45PM (33 children)
Yes, there's nothing like shaming to help people with self-esteem issues. Or get them to off themselves, but who cares, they're just fatties amIright?</sarcasm>
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @12:18AM (26 children)
5'6" / 350 isn't happy fat, it's major looming health issue fat - going to die decades early if not addressed fat. It's not about shaming, he had the issues, not us - if he was happy, we were happy, but he openly shared his feelings in this regard.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @01:31AM (25 children)
His unhappiness is one thing. Shaming him on top of it is unconscionable. Ever hear the one about kicking someone when they're down?
I'm referring to your comment:
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:18AM (23 children)
Fat people who manage to escape the weight will often tell you that the biggest motivator was -- fat shaming.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:12AM (22 children)
How many can you name? Out of what population size?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @05:01AM (21 children)
Good question... as relatively few manage to dump the weight, one might consider most of the success stories as corner cases.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @11:19AM (20 children)
And so in the vast majority of cases that makes the shaming a futile needless cruelty. If it was a drug, the combination of side effects (including a few fatalities) and poor efficacy would keep it off the market. Involuntary administration wouldn't make it past any ethics panel anywhere.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @01:35PM (12 children)
That may be so. But I'm old enough to remember when being fat was both rare and embarrassing (when I was in school, there might be one fat kid in the entire school; now they're the norm). Watch old films and note how lean and fit most people are. Maybe our current dosage of shame is too low?
Actually, get the soy and flaxseed out of the general diet (and therefore get rid of the two worst sources of thyroid-inhibiting phytoestrogens), and most of the problem would go away with no effort on anyone's part. If you chart the switch from lard to soybean oil vs the rise of obesity, there's an exactly contiguous relationship.
And when I see normal-weight parents with a morbidly-obese gradeschooler (an alarmingly common sight in SoCal), I make a point of snooping in their grocery carts. Every time, in their cart one finds a "healthy breakfast cereal" -- based on flaxseed meal.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:00PM (1 child)
And in doing so increase our dependency on farming livestock and go back to triple bypass operations being a regular occurrence in later life.
error count exceeds 100; stopping compilation
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:20PM
Fix the global obesity epidemic with this one weird trick! Click here for more...
There are plenty of societal factors driving obesity, and most governments are doing more to encourage obesity than to discourage it, and that should stop - but... who here has more lobbying power than Monsanto? The corn farmers of America? General Mills, PepsiCo, etc.? Then we can get into the top levels of the healthcare industry which is basically raking in massive profits due to widespread diabetes and other complications of obesity. Don't kid yourselves, the big money only wants one thing from this world: more money.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:59PM (9 children)
So while you freely acknowledge that the problem might be an industry effectively poisoning children, you believe that the answer is to shame the children?
No need to look at correcting whatever has changed that has increased the rate of obesity, just hold the experts harmless for their bad advice and shame the victims?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:25PM (8 children)
Not what I said, but whatever. You got a solution? let's hear it.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:54PM (7 children)
You're the one claiming that shaming is useful and speculating that there isn't enough of it. All I did was strip it to a bald statement so you could see how ugly it is..
Step one, stop dumping toxic emotional baggage on children...
Step 2, don't dump it on adults either...
I do know that there are case reports of someone receiving a gut flora transplant from someone with a more normal weight and subsequently dropping dozens of pounds without effort.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @04:11PM (6 children)
I am very tired of being told I must enable, support, and finally celebrate everybody's personal issues. I am very tired of being told there is nothing worthy of shame (except being a white dude, that's shameful). I am very tired of the direction society goes under our new shameless system. At this point, I don't really care if the alternative is "ugly", and the celebration culture brought that on themselves.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @05:37PM (5 children)
There's a vast gulf between "celebrating" and just keeping your big mouth shut. I'm not suggesting you should celebrate anything, just curb your sense of entitlement and MYOB. There's your not-ugly alternative.
Further notes, there is a difference between shame and shaming.
Also worth noting, I don't even claim that no shaming is ever permitted, just that it should be reserved for situations where someone's behavior is ACTUALLY adversely affecting someone else. If someone beats their kids, they should be ashamed AND they should be shamed, for example.
Point of order, the celebration culture actually sprung from people tired of entitled people trying to shame them all the time. So you and other pro-shamers brought that on yourselves.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @06:32PM (4 children)
As a member of a class that has been, through no fault of our own, shamed to the point that we're now mostly illegal, I think I have more of a handle on this than you.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @07:05PM (3 children)
So how'd that shame work out for you? You don't sound all that grateful for it!
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @08:39PM (2 children)
I closed my business and moved away. Point was, shaming pressure works. It may not be nice, or pleasant, and it may fuck over the undeserving, but it achieves the intended result. It is basically protests writ small.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @09:58PM (1 child)
So, in fact, shaming did not move you to change, only to move away from the shaming. So your desired result here is to drive all fat people into exile? Do you even read what you write?
There are many unethical things that work. Blinding is remarkably effective against voyeurism. Many cults have found a combination of gaslighting, psychological torture, and physical deprivation to be effective. Summary execution prevents recidivism. Lobotomy makes for very compliant patients.
Efficacy does not equate to being ethical or moral. It also doesn't prevent a great deal of blowback. Many police officers found shooting to result in really compliant suspects... But if you're going around recommending nastiness that fucks over the undeserving, perhaps we should strap you down and apply a great deal of ECT. I hear it works wonders...
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @11:17PM
You're really good at only reading the parts you don't like.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:17PM (6 children)
You can't win if you don't play. "Normalizing" the morbidly obese in the media as a pursuing a desirable lifestyle would, undoubtedly, make the already disastrous problem worse. They should be acknowledged, they should be shown on the screen, they should be celebrated as human beings - but not without the caveats of the problems they face, not from society but from inescapable physiology.
Bariatric surgery is a big nasty with terrible side effects, and yet the benefits outweigh the costs and risks in many cases - we shouldn't be steering people away from fixing their problems when they are fixable.
As for: only the mentally weak don't have the willpower to manage obesity themselves through diet, yeah, sure, just like moral parents don't have grandchildren from their teenage offspring, heroin addicts can kick the habit themselves, bulimics can quit whenever they decide to, etc. A tremendous amount of self harming behavior is basically hardwired - and people suffering from those behavioral disorders need support just as much as somebody with collapsing lungs needs a ventilator.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:43PM (5 children)
All of that is distinct from shaming. You wouldn't shame a type I diabetic or a blind person, would you? If someone pursued an adrenaline junkie lifestyle and ended up paraplegic from a skydiving accident, would you shame them? If they only nearly ended up paraplegic, would you shame them?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:15PM (4 children)
If there were lifestyle choices and/or practical interventions that could cure or mitigate the effects of type 1 diabetes and/or blindness, then, yes, in a caring way they should be shamed into those things, like: control your blood sugar, have your insulin handy, etc. Type 1 diabetics that don't control their condition: that lack of control should be scolded, chided, needled, wheedled, and yes: shamed. I knew a type 1 diabetic who fell into a deep depression after a hurricane severely damaged his house, quit taking care of his condition, died within a year leaving his wife and children behind, if we (his friends/coworkers) had more access to him yes we would have shamed him, not for having diabetes in the first place, but for not doing the things he needed to do to continue to be there for his wife and daughter.
The thing you may be sticking on is that obesity appears "cured" when the weight comes off. You don't shame an alcoholic for not drinking (unless you are an asshat), likewise you don't shame somebody who is prone to obesity for the fact that they have that problem - you do, however, shame them for bingeing on soda, ice cream and pizza whenever they have a hard day at work - that's something they can control (whether by not going to the restaurant/store, or by getting a better job), and even if the food high helps them for a few hours, they're going to suffer so much for it later.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:59PM (3 children)
Shame is toxic. Adding more is more toxic. You might try encouraging someone to better control their blood sugar, but ultimately it is their choice.
How do you feel about shaming someone to take a less dangerous job or to give up skydiving?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @06:22PM (2 children)
Shame on you for shame shaming! Shame is a legitimate word just like toxic, dangerous, etc.
If you don't like the word "Shame" maybe you would feel better calling it "positive reinforcement of life affirming behaviors"?
If a 40 year old breadwinner for their spouse and three children aged 2 through 6 is continuing to pursue a career as a rodeo clown, I would consider dropping hints over beers that it's probably time to give up the clowning around before they get gored and their family ends up on welfare to be a helpful nudge, as well as a form of shaming.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @07:07PM (1 child)
I'm not objecting to the word, I'm objecting to the action. Do look it up, it may not mean what you think it does.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @07:20PM
Just like there are degrees of toxic, and dangerous, there are degrees of shame. Shame is actually a multi-dimensional quantity, varying in both intensity, source, and stigma attachment, and different people are going to react differently to the different qualities of shame.
If all Hollywood ever shows of fat people is Rebel Wilson kicking ass and having a wonderful life, that would be as irresponsible as glamourization of cigarettes. People need to see Gilbert Grape's Momma once in awhile too.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:09PM
In the media, the way that cigarettes are shamed, absolutely.
Face to face? What kind of insensitive clod are you? Even the meter-maid bedside manner M.D. wasn't shaming our round friend to his face, just informing him of the long term health and short term social consequences.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by darkfeline on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:20AM (5 children)
Self-esteem issues come from within and must be fixed from within. The only one who can fix your self-esteem issues is yourself. Other people complimenting your "fat beauty" may provide a brief burst of serotonin, but it's no better than drugs for an addict.
Admittedly, fat shaming is only helpful insofar as getting one to recognize that they have a problem. Society can provide resources to help them solve their problems, but they need to be the one to accept that they have a problem, and they need to be the ones to fix that problem (e.g., changing their diet permanently and exercising).
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:03AM (3 children)
I didn't say you have to give everyone a participation trophy in a beauty contest or anything, just that active shaming is at best not helpful.
You can't cure them, but you can at least not hinder them.
Do you really think that there are many fat people who don't actually know they're fat?
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday September 16 2020, @05:08AM (2 children)
> Do you really think that there are many fat people who don't actually know they're fat?
Well, there is a Health at Every Size movement, so clearly a significant proportion have convinced themselves that it's not a problem. I don't know the psychological profile of these people, but it seems that the lack of self-esteem is not the issue, rather the opposite (self-esteem alone is not sufficient for a healthy lifestyle). Historically, the social pressure from shaming would help them recognize their problem, although in the current age that may just polarize them more and make them retreat into their bubbles on Facebook or the social media platform du jour.
For the people who do recognize their problem and suffer self esteem issues from it, I admit that shaming is not actively beneficial, although it's imperative that we don't try to trivialize that it is in fact a problem: "Don't worry, it's okay to be fat!"
I am not condoning bullying or harassment of fat people, but as a society we must continue to recognize that being fat is not good, even if this causes self esteem issues in fat people.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Wednesday September 16 2020, @01:49PM (1 child)
The Healthy at Every Size movement *IS* the polarization in action. It is the reaction to years of shaming you speculate about.
It's one thing to recognize that there can be health consequences to obesity, but shaming isn't generally about concern for others. It is far more commonly nasty bitter busybodies looking for a boost to their own ego at the expense of others. Naturally, also for the benefit of their own ego, they like to reframe it as loving concern for their fellow man. "I know it hurts, but I'm kicking you in the nuts repeatedly for your own good!".
News flash! It's been going on for decades and the data shows it hasn't helped. The world is full of weight loss advice that works just as well as the dime a dozen can't lose betting systems that are going to break the bank in Vegas.
Meanwhile, I note that nobody seems to feel moved to shame body builders in spite of the negative health effects of their choices (especially the ones that abuse steroids). Also sky divers.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday September 16 2020, @09:31PM
THIS. You can tell because it almost always seems to be done by people with zero personal experience of obesity--they look down on the obese as less than human. If it came from legitimate caring for another's well-being then fat people and people that used to be fat would be doing the shaming too. It can't because shaming is inherently a negative, destructive process.
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(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:23PM
Ultimately, yes, of course. However: the environment you live in has tremendous influence on whether you get into self-esteem problems in the first place, and your ability to fix them when you are ready to. Close friends and distant acquaintances are important, but so is the mass media - not only in for how it directly affects people with self-esteem issues, but in how mass media influences their friends and acquaintances and therefore how they act.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by meustrus on Monday September 14 2020, @08:03PM (6 children)
Smoking rates weren't reduced because people were ashamed to smoke. They were reduced because bars, restaurants, and gradually, social interaction of every kind became non-smoking areas. If you wanted to participate in these gatherings, you had to be able to not smoke for a while. Since smoking is addictive, not smoking for social gatherings kind of implies smoking less or not at all the rest of the time, too.
Smoking is also something where simply changing habits has immediate health benefits. Reducing or quitting smoking is the goal in and of itself.
Compare that to obesity. We have some laws that ban overindulgence - soda size limits, basically - but not nearly to the level of anti-smoking laws. We could ban overindulgence more, but unlike with smoking, there's no reason why somebody couldn't continue to overindulge at home despite restrictions in public. And changing habits, i.e. diet and exercise, is only the beginning of the process. It can takes years of better habits for an obese person to reach a healthy weight.
On top of that, the habits themselves are much harder to pin down. With smoking, it's easy. Stop smoking. With obesity, it's not so easy. You can't just stop eating altogether. You have to stop old eating habits and form new ones, often with very little guidance on what constitutes "good" eating. Doctors focus too much on the things they can measure - calorie intake, fat intake, cholesterol levels, that kind of thing. "Good" eating is more than good decisions. It's a whole lifestyle. If your parents didn't teach it to you, you're going to have to find the time and the resources to learn it yourself.
(I know that there's more to quitting smoking then just stopping - you need to replace the habit and taper off the nicotine, and it's not easy - but my point here is that anyone can do it without making a whole lifestyle out of it)
And there's the biggest challenge: time and resources. It's why obesity is more common in poor people. There's no one to tell them how to eat better, they don't have the time to figure it out for themselves, and even if they did, healthy food might simply not be available within an hour's travel time.
Finally, and most importantly, not everybody who is overweight or obese is stuck there because of bad habits. Some people just have really slow metabolism, or hormonal imbalances that make it hard to keep weight off. Many of these people can eat a healthy diet and have good medical health, but still look fat. They would need to eat like an anorexic to have a "normal" looking body, and that would be unhealthy. Shaming these people is only going to make them more miserable and unhealthy, not less.
The obesity epidemic started when fat-shaming was still an unquestioned social norm. Shame did not prevent this problem, and it won't fix it either.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @01:47PM (5 children)
Similarly... we didn't used to make accommodations for fat people. If you were fat, you just didn't get to participate. Maybe there's a parallel here?
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:06PM (4 children)
I'm not sure what accommodations you're talking about. The closest I can think of is those hoveround things marketed to old people, but that's not really an accommodation so much as a scheme to suckle Medicare money out of Uncle Sam.
It's still basically impossible for fat people to participate in most athletic-oriented activities. Maybe you're thinking of corporate team-building exercises moving away from such things? To which I would say, you're just getting old. Athletic team building exercises are for 20-somethings.
Or are you trying to bring it back around to "curve models"? The fashion industry is learning to "accommodate" larger bodies out of capitalist necessity. There's a market there. We can debate whether it's good for fat people to be "accommodated", but that's not really the same thing as being commercially exploited or being able to buy fitting clothes. Unless you want to argue that if fat people had to make their own clothes, they'd lose weight because they're too lazy to sew. Which really doesn't make any sense. They'd just wear bedsheets and never leave the house, which I'm sure you can imagine is completely counterproductive to them losing weight.
Besides, there's a long history of fat wealthy people being perfectly capable of getting around. Any accommodations we have now are surely just a democratization of accommodations that already existed for the kind of people who could fatten up on cakes back when their serfs were literally starving to death.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:43PM (3 children)
Extra wide chairs now seen everywhere spring to mind.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:56PM (2 children)
Just like the nice plush extra-large chairs that have been in executive offices and estates for centuries? Enabling for-profit corporations to engage the majority of the population?
There's a whole lotta shit said blamed on PC culture that's really just capitalists realizing that there's more markets than just skinny white dudes.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @04:14PM (1 child)
And then in the next breath, these very egalitarians condemn capitalism....
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by meustrus on Tuesday September 15 2020, @06:43PM
A straw man. There aren't very many socialists in the US, apparently. Most social progressives these days don't give economic policy much thought. They might fall in with anti-capitalist environmentalists from time to time, but not seriously enough for truly anti-capitalist environmentalist policy to gain any kind of traction anywhere.
When social progressives do discover the ways that capitalism fuels racism, they tend to stop focusing so much on social issues. The wealth leaders in our society create scarcity to fuel commercial demand, and they encourage tribalism among the poor to distract from their siphoning of the wealth generated by that demand. Once they see how little these top-level white supremacists actually care about race, i.e. only as a tool of oligarchy, it becomes clear that they can't address systemic racism without first addressing this artificial scarcity. Otherwise, they're just arguing over who gets how much of the ever-shrinking pie, and it's too easy for white people to feel like their portion is shrinking because of the argument, not because of economic exploitation by the wealthy.
In some ways, capitalists are bending to social progressivism not just because it can make them more money, but because it placates social progressives before they go down the economic path. There is an argument to be made that it's all just "bread and circuses".
Still though, they wouldn't be doing any of it if it didn't end up making them money.
And what's the alternative, anyway? You want Big Government coming in to fat-shame people? Maybe you'll get your wish; with the EU singing the praises of China's Great Firewall, it's not such a stretch to imagine American fascists copying China's social credit system. First, though, they'll have to figure out how to exempt President Taft the Second.
(aside: I know this conversation is completely asymmetric, and I don't care - I like writing, and if all I get to write against is fallacious one-liners, well that's better than not writing at all)
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:37AM (1 child)
As a fat person, I'm quite aware that most people despise me and wish I were dead. But sure, shame away. It's not like I go outside much anymore anyway, and that's from well before the covid stuff.
I've seen the looks of disgust on people's faces as I waddle around, barely holding myself upright on two canes from my enormous weight. They don't know it's not the weight -- I never needed canes until cancer fucked up my knees and feet. Oh, and until they found I had cancer, no doctor I'd ever seen in over 40 years of being alive, even the ones who yelled at me for being fat, ever ran the test that would have uncovered my underactive thyroid. Which is genetic, since after the test showed I had it, everyone in my family demanded a test for themselves, and we found my mother, father, and one sister has it too. The other sister actually has an overactive thyroid, which is probably why she puts on her "fat pants" whenever her weight temporarily goes over 100 pounds. But no one can see any of that, they just see fat guy on canes, and twist their faces up at the walking horror show.
Fortunately I never smoked, so I don't know how hard it is to stop smoking. But people actually can stop smoking. No one can stop eating; not for long.
Sure, I could probably actually lose weight, even though each step is painful and no doc will give me a pain pill (because I'm such a risk for shooting up heroin in an alley). It would take years, a lot of pain, and a lot of self control. But... why bother? To live a few more years? Yeah, right... live longer among all these wonderful human beings: the thin ones that hate me because I'm fat, and the female ones that hate me because I'm male, and the poc ones who hate me because I'm white. Sure, boy howdy, I wanna stick around and get me more of that!
I'll take the cheeseburger and a quick heart attack, thank you.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @01:44PM
And this is one reason I regularly rail about thyroid. Almost no one overeats, or gains weight, unless that thyroid is to some degree dysfunctional. And if one reads widely in the endocrine literature, it's clear that obesity is a co-symptom, NOT a cause of heart disease and the other "diseases of obesity" (and of most "diseases of aging": 80% of people over age 50 have some degree of thyroid decline. It's not so much "hereditary" as that now we live long enough that almost everyone gets to experience it. Unfortunately most doctors only treat the symptoms, not the root cause.)
If you are starting to feel your age, or have ANY chronic condition (physical or mental), GET A FULL ENDOCRINE WORKUP. The whole thyroid panel (TSH test alone is not enough), parathyroid, reproductive hormones, and cortisol. You'd be shocked how many chronic ailments just go away when thyroid is properly normalized.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @01:20PM (6 children)
It means 'models with *curves*', as in models that have a somewhat rounder/fuller body-type than the 'standard' ultra-skinny models typically seen in fashion. Personally I feel these so-called 'fuller' (curved) models look perfectly normal and natural, and the standard models look like they are underweight, but that's another story.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Bot on Monday September 14 2020, @01:47PM (2 children)
Most sane people like curvy models, problem being the media, mainstream is propaganda, skinny is weak, mainstream promotes weakness once again.
Grow your own food? noo dirty peasant, be a metrosexual at the mall.
Own your own money? noo dirty gangster, use the banking system or pieces of paper
Procreate? noo dirty cancer on earth, use procedures to fertilize an eggs from your sex unspecified partner, or wait for the in vitro perfectly sequenced son, which will have some surprise programming to show you later.
And so on.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @10:48PM (1 child)
How is this shit +5 insightful?
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:30PM
Because there is no Obvious Truth mod.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday September 14 2020, @02:33PM (2 children)
I find it interesting that the so-called experts (fashion designers) are unable to comprehend the simple fact that people larger than size 0 or 1 aren't simply scaled up versions, yet still insist on designing clothes to be form fitting.
(Score: 2) by quietus on Monday September 14 2020, @04:12PM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday September 14 2020, @07:31PM
Sure, but then there's all that other clothing that isn't expected to be custom tailored or altered. Unlike the Armani suit, most fashion clothing is expected to be worn for a year or less, at least according to the designers.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:38AM (2 children)
It's fat Americans justifying being fat Americans.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:05PM (1 child)
No, an obesity epidemic doesn't justify conditioning girls to want to be seriously underweight. A bit of muscle and a little bit of fat is far more attractive than someone who's all skin and bones, at least to me.
error count exceeds 100; stopping compilation
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday September 16 2020, @05:06AM
Trust me on this one - nobody wants to change the diaper or wash someone who's anorexic. Unless you're anorexic, you have an instinctive revulsion to people who look at deaths door because it evokes fear of death from disease in the subconscious.
You focus on the person and not their appearance.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday September 16 2020, @10:07AM
Sounds like the sort of euphemism applied to someone who has to ride in a lift alone for safety reasons.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @01:16PM (6 children)
There are always those better than us. The thing to teach kids is to ignore it and power on anyway, try harder.
(Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Monday September 14 2020, @01:33PM (5 children)
Some snowflakes are more special than the others, yes.
Problem is the illusion that one is a snowflake in the first place, like... forever, when in reality is all water down the drain; very likely water excreted withing the shit after being thoroughly chewed by this world. The sooner you get to realize it and adjust your expectations accordingly, the less impact the "curve models" have on your life and the more control you get.
https://www.youtube.com/@ProfSteveKeen https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by inertnet on Monday September 14 2020, @02:02PM
I must have woken up in a different universe today.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday September 14 2020, @04:26PM (3 children)
The interesting thing about beauty is: the people rated most physically attractive are actually the least special snowflakes. Yes, they are symmetrical. However, the most average faces and bodies are the ones most consistently rated as most beautiful by the largest number of people. I suspect the same dynamic is at play in social behaviors and other perceptible traits. Most (but far from all) people are turned off by "weird."
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @01:55PM (2 children)
There have been some studies on exactly what ordinary people find beautiful in Real Life (and included were a group of blind men who had to rate beauty by feel). Turns out it's very consistent:
-- physical symmetry (indicating low genetic load, ie. fewer defects)
-- a hip/waist ratio indicating strength in males, and reproductive fitness in females.
Thus the perception of "beauty" is a functional part of our reproductive wiring, meant to improve the numbers and survival of our offspring.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:07PM (1 child)
Would be shocked if it were anything else.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:28PM
So would I. From a species fitness POV, this is all just Captain Obvious stuff.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday September 14 2020, @01:41PM (7 children)
>make-up artist and curve model Sasha Pallari
makeup IS a filter.
Filters mostly suck. They seem conceived for asians who want to look like big eyed europeans and people with skin probs.
But they will get better.
And you can't detect at well done photoshopping.
People are already adapting. Males will wait to see the girl IRL before rating, females will look for other photos in hope to find something candid so they can badmouth the rivals.
All in all a lost battle.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @02:57PM
A battle not worth winning.
This whole battlespace is a big bowl of stupid.
Monkey-like (hell, just monkey) reproductive psychology, that humans have, is not concerned with its side effects upon itself or rationality, or whatever.
The mating game is played to win.
Any sort of advantage will be used as soon as it is obtainable.
Sorta kinda pretty much like any other battlespace humans do their conflicts in...
She is suggesting we make the existing Rules Of Engagement book few pages longer.
This is somewhat like suggesting to spammers they shouldnt send more then a million emails per session per host.
Or suggesting military occupants they leave their cosy base and go home to their own country.
Noob optimism and a dose of not-understanding-the-dynamics, is what it is, in my opinion.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday September 14 2020, @03:07PM (2 children)
This has been going on since print media began. Impossibly thin-waisted corset models in Victorian newspapers, on through Heroin chic, etc. Impossibly flawless, impossibly proportioned - runway models 5'11" or taller, with shoe sizes 6 or smaller.
So, with real-time deep-fakes we're going to see high school kids who have to have the latest 64 core 6GHz cellphones just so they can run their chat filters in HD. You know your friends are faking when they have to wear insulated gloves because their phones are so hot.
Low self esteem from comparing ones' self to the 0.001% "reality" they see on global broadcast media, and fake friends' filtered content is not anything new, just a continuing trend.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:55AM (1 child)
That's not really true. Recently saw a history of what was considered the perfect model by decade, with examples, and it went through cycles, from flappers with no hips or breasts through to muscle girls through to curvy girls.
I also remember watching a fashion show from the '30's IIRC, all the girls were attractively curved with a normal amount of fat on them with a height closer to 5 and a half feet.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday September 15 2020, @02:26PM
Agreed, fashion cycles, especially over multiple decade timescales. My bad for only pointing out the thin end of the pendulum.
Even still, media promotes extremes - whether that is thin or fat. I personally believe that "thin women" will always have a certain allure - as they don't look to be carrying a child at the moment, and therefore make more attractive mates... to a lesser degree, thin men tend to not have a woman who cooks for them.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Touché) by legont on Monday September 14 2020, @03:09PM (1 child)
As well as antiperspirant.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Monday September 14 2020, @06:53PM
As well as clothes.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by meustrus on Monday September 14 2020, @08:10PM
Beauty is about more than makes looking for hot females. Beauty is also an indicator of social class and hierarchy, across gender. The people in Instagram are mostly playing the class game, not the mating game. They go to Tinder et al for the mating game.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday September 14 2020, @02:03PM (1 child)
Shallow little idiots deserve the insecurities they create for themselves. Us wise folks know it's all pink on the inside, chicks who don't get it as often are more enthusiastic, fat chicks usually have bigger hooters, and having a good sense of humor plus not constantly saying cringeworthily stupid shit is way more important in someone you plan on spending any significant time around. Nothing wrong with being attracted to beauty too but vision is really about the least important sense to take input from when picking someone for anything but watching on the Stairmaster while you're on lunch.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by cmdrklarg on Monday September 14 2020, @04:28PM
Very much agreed, though I don't find big tits all that enticing, nor do I like the trend towards having a giant ass on an otherwise attractive female. I tend to like the slim but athletic framed ladies who are well proportioned.
And looks mean nothing if they're rotten on the inside.
Anyway, back to being on the topic: I agree with the article. I prefer to see women with minimal to no makeup or picture filters. I see it all the time with the dating apps: some otherwise attractive older lady who has the pictures so filtered that they look like a bad photoshop. Who are they trying to fool? At 45+ most women aren't going to have flawless skin!
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by RedGreen on Monday September 14 2020, @02:22PM (4 children)
"I don't want children to grow up thinking they are not good enough because of what they see on social media."
As opposed to all the other brainwashing that they have gotten over the last 100 years at least, from the fashion/beauty industry. In all the various forms of media that are devoted to separating them from their money and creating a dependancy on their products...
Those people are not attacking Tesla dealerships. They are tourists showing love. I learned that on Jan. 6, 2021.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Monday September 14 2020, @02:48PM (1 child)
Yeah - and there's some serious irony in a make-up artist saying such a thing - her job is almost certainly to present unrealistic ideals of beauty on normal media.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Monday September 14 2020, @10:04PM
Buggy whip manufacturer rants about newfangled horseless carriages and their detrimental effects on society, more news at 11.
Not that I disagree with the general sentiment, but the problem isn't the filters it's the entire fucking industry, including the hypocrites complaining about it while trying to sell their own versions of the same poison.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday September 14 2020, @03:15PM
This whole false reality has been an outgrowth of mass media, probably starting with Gutenberg printing about how much beer they have in his village pub (they saved the bibles, but the real stuff gets lost to time...)
The only new thing here, and unsurprising at that, is that democratization of the publishers' role has led to "faking" technology which allows individuals to present themselves in exaggerated ways - so, unlike global media campaigns which can sift through literally millions of people to find their "ideal" spokesmodels, individuals can now tweak their own appearances as much as they want, all the way up through giving themselves a live image indistinguishable from 22 year old Marilyn Monroe, complete with voice replacement and re-translation of speech, movements and mannerisms to be more like Marilyn's character acting roles than even Marilyn ever was.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:33PM
Return to school uniforms, where no one has a fashion advantage and no one can feel like they must (or can't) keep up, and much of this competition toward absurdity goes away. At least in that demographic, where it's mostly about showing off to your peers.
Of course, the fashion industry would fight it tooth and nail, since young folks still stuck on "peer review" are their easiest target.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by bd on Monday September 14 2020, @02:23PM (1 child)
So kids these days are subconsciously trained to accept basically cgi faces as realistic.
If anyone had told me 20 years ago that the uncanny valley will be conquered the wrong way around...
I guess it makes sense...
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday September 14 2020, @03:18PM
Not quite conquered yet: https://old.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/ [reddit.com]
but getting closer all the time.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Redundant) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Monday September 14 2020, @05:16PM (3 children)
Meanwhile, in Africa or in the Middle East, women are struggling to find enough food or water to stay alive, sold into slavery, forced to disguise themselves as lampshade in the name of God, or don't have the right to do what they want without their husband's approval.
So indeed: I can totally see realistic skin color on selfies truly is a world-class problem...
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Monday September 14 2020, @06:36PM (2 children)
Or, indeed, using a chemical skin filter [wikipedia.org] :
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 14 2020, @10:03PM
I wonder how well they define the line between products for whitening skin and products for preventing skin darkening - i.e. sunscreen...
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday September 15 2020, @03:36PM
And before western products were available, they smeared white clay on their skin.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.