Elon Musk's Las Vegas Loop might only carry a fraction of the passengers it promised – TechCrunch:
In pandemic-free years, America's biggest trade show, CES, attracts more than 170,000 attendees, bringing traffic that jams surrounding roads day and night. To help absorb at least some of the congestion, the Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC) last year planned a people-mover to serve an expanded campus. The LVCC wanted transit that could move up to 4,400 attendees every hour between exhibition halls and parking lots.
It considered traditional light rail that could shuttle hundreds of attendees per train, but settled on an underground system from Elon Musk's The Boring Company (TBC) instead — largely because Musk's bid was tens of millions of dollars cheaper. The LVCC Loop would transport attendees through two 0.8-mile underground tunnels in Tesla vehicles, four or five at a time.
But planning files reviewed by TechCrunch seem to show that the Loop system will not be able to move anywhere near the number of people LVCC wants, and that TBC agreed to.
Fire regulations peg the occupant capacity in the load and unload zones of one of the Loop's three stations at just 800 passengers an hour. If the other stations have similar limitations, the system might only be able to transport 1,200 people an hour — around a quarter of its promised capacity.
If TBC misses its performance target by such a margin, Musk's company will not receive more than $13 million of its construction budget — and will face millions more in penalty charges once the system becomes operational.
Neither TBC nor LVCVA responded to multiple requests for comment.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday October 17 2020, @05:15PM (1 child)
If failure to reach projected capacity is due to occupancy capacity, the contractor probably has legal recourse. Convince a judge that you have the technical capacity of X, but the authority only permits you to move X-y, you can probably win.
I sure wouldn't want to get involved in the legal wrangling though.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 3, Interesting) by fakefuck39 on Saturday October 17 2020, @08:39PM
Umm, no. No new regulation was introduced to limit capacity. Other bidders did their research and designed more expensive systems that follow code and regulation. Musky Tusk ignored all of that and proposed a system that breaks the law.
The technical capacity of a bus system is 100 people per bus per hour. That is assuming the bus goes double the speed limit and has no seating for the disabled. When a company bids on providing bus service, it's their own fault if they promise 100 people per hour and can't deliver. You're saying it's the fault of the city for setting a speed limit. You're wrong, in a really stupid way, as is tradition.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @05:33PM (7 children)
Crazy idea, but they could add tracks with power rails, and then use train cars to carry more people (and load / unload more efficiently). I don't know what to call it though. Maybe, underground, tube, subway, or metro.
Seriously, on a closed loop course why the hell are batteries and individually powered cars involved?!!!!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Immerman on Saturday October 17 2020, @06:11PM (3 children)
The (claimed) problem is not physical people-moving capacity, but of fire regulations limiting the amount of people who can accumulate on the loading/unloading platform. Worst case scenario they need more platforms to comply with fire codes.
And even the claim looks shaky - the author seems to be basing their calculations on assuming everyone who passes through the platform in a 7.5min window is accumulating there, while it would seem a more reasonable interpretation is how many people will actually be "in line" at a given time.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @07:26PM
> fire regulations
If the cars in the tubes are Teslas (which I think is correct), then there is a known spontaneous fire risk...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @09:44PM (1 child)
If people can load and unload more efficiently i.e, into a bunch of train cars that they can walk upright into vs. into tiny individual tesla cars people will be located on the platform for less time for the same number of people transported. And, more people can be transported in the same time period while keeping the platform at the required limit of persons.
All without the negatives of using batteries (power wasted, time spent charging batteries, and large amount of environmental damage due to lithium mining).
And, rails + steel wheels don't give off polluting microplastic dust, and steel wheels last orders of magnitude longer than rubber tires.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Sunday October 18 2020, @07:12AM
Again, the claimed problem is that THE FIRE CODE does not permit that many people to pass through a loading platform of that size. NOT that there would be any problem actualy moving the people.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Sunday October 18 2020, @01:47AM (2 children)
Yep, I was about to post the exact same thing. This whole idea seems incredibly stupid. In fact, the whole idea of using cars (as in automobiles, that hold 1-6 people each) to move large numbers of people between 2 or 3 or and handful of destinations is incredibly stupid and inefficient; this is exactly where trains shine. You can pack *hundreds* of passengers into a single trainset for a typical metro subway system. The place where trains fall down is when people want to move between countless different destinations that are not along a few lines, but this isn't the situation here at all. In fact, Las Vegas should have had a subway or light-rail decades ago, because ALL the places tourists want to go are along a single road, aptly named "The Strip". And as someone who's been to Vegas several times, take my advice: do not ever go away from The Strip and see any other part of the city. The city becomes very seedy and depressing as soon as you do.
(Score: 2) by DavePolaschek on Sunday October 18 2020, @01:26PM (1 child)
The one time I visited Vegas (overnighting because cheap flight) on the way to driving around scenic areas of Utah and Arizona, I stayed downtown. Had an evening and most of a morning to kill before the other guys I was playing tourist with were ready to go.
I got a one bedroom, two story suite [snap.as] for $35, got a free $20 in “casino cash” which I played a buck at a time on roulette on black, then cashed in my $18 in winnings and bought dinner and a beer with those, then went back to my rooms and read. And I got to spend two hours walking around downtown just after sunrise and seeing exactly how seedy it was before it was time to meet up and drive to the desert.
Don’t need to repeat that experience, but it was sure educational. The other guys who arrived the evening before stayed on the strip, lost money in the casinos, and were hungover and cranky.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 18 2020, @05:13PM
Livin' the Vegas dream baby!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @05:34PM (6 children)
color me shocked that a Musky wet dream was bullshit
(Score: 1) by MIRV888 on Saturday October 17 2020, @06:50PM (1 child)
I'm sick and tired of all this fake science that never works.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 18 2020, @05:15PM
Oh then you'll love the alternative. Reminds me of that phrase about the cost of education, if you think it's expensive then just TRY the other way.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @07:40PM (2 children)
Won't be the first time a shuttle installation failed to meet spec'ed capacity.
I did a little bit of consulting relative to this one, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirTrain_Newark [wikipedia.org] at Newark NJ airport. Original design speed was, iirc, 28 mph. The bogies were unstable and shook at that speed, so the max speed was reduced to (again iirc) 22 mph, causing a peak capacity decrease.
While they may look sexy, monorails (at least this one) are supported by truck tires & axles (narrowed down) running on the top surface, very boring old tech. One problem--the little guide wheels on the sides to keep the truck tires centered were completely inadequate. Another engineer on the project was also concerned that the safety structure reaching from the car under the rail (to prevent the train from rolling/blowing over) was prone to early fatigue failures. My guess is that maintenance includes frequent crack checking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @08:35PM (1 child)
Well, since we're talking Newark here, this is what you get for a project going to a mob boss associate than to a real engineering firm.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @09:12PM
The original contract winner and their chosen subs match your mob description. For example, the rail didn't come close to meeting the specs for smoothness of the various running surfaces, so a bumpy ride was inevitable. By the time I got there the contract had been taken over by another (long established) company who were trying to pick up the pieces and deliver something that worked.
My take (not the official line)--the design for the Newark monorail was based on a scaled-up version of the monorail at a Disney park. The scaling was linear, in nearly every respect. As many SN readers will know, the world doesn't work that way. When the size of something is increased, different parts scale by different amounts, some have to get much stronger/thicker, etc. This (imo) was the "root cause" of most of the problems with this monorail design.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 18 2020, @05:20PM
> color me shocked that a Musky wet dream was bullshit
I happened to watch Elon speak for the first time yesterday on Joe Rogan experience.
This guy Elon does not know his shit AT ALL. You have to listen to him flub an explanation of AI - he takes it on like he thinks he can bluster his way through then... nuthin. Crickets. The only time he gets remotely animated is talking about business arbitrage, and possibly aerodynamics. Massive bullshitter alert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYjXbSJBN8 [youtube.com]
He's not even a good speaker - this is the most boring 2 hours of your life. Skip through and he's the exact same stuttering monotone throughout - except for 1 or 2 minutes talking MBA schtick. Simple stuff, not technical, especially not AI.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday October 17 2020, @06:17PM (3 children)
So, how much social distancing does that capacity allow for? What, pandemic-free years? They think this pandemic is ending anytime soon? Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
I heard Musky has people test his toys on monkey brains [soylentnews.org]!
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(Score: 2) by choose another one on Saturday October 17 2020, @07:00PM (2 children)
It's pretty much ended all ready in New Zealand and looks like it will be "soon" in Aus, I think Musky already has some property interests in NZ...
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday October 17 2020, @07:23PM (1 child)
I was thinking globally. I'd be impressed if their quarantining is good enough to keep it out indefinitely if it rages on for decades, but maybe it is. Would Oz or NZ buy a hyperloop anyway?
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @08:42PM
Who says "buy"? Those countries are very happy to take billionaires as citizens [soylentnews.org], for the right price.
(Score: -1, Troll) by MIRV888 on Saturday October 17 2020, @06:25PM (1 child)
Public transportation is for chumps, socialists and the homeless.
;-)
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @11:45PM
...and anyone not living in the USA.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by istartedi on Saturday October 17 2020, @09:07PM
I'd like to see the Hyperloop concept moving cargo before it moves people. First, you could use much smaller pipes. I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for small freight and packages that need a timely delivery is; but it's probably not people-sized.
Let's say you have access to a lot of data on things pertaining to the distribution of package sizes, the value of the contents, and the willingness of customers to pay for expedited delivery. In other words, let's say you're a certain large company that sells everything from A to Z with a smile.
Let's say you use that data to determine that a pipe from six inches to a foot wide (that's 15 to 30 cm) could possibly justify construction costs, at least between two of your distribution centers initially.
These narrow-gauge tubes could be evacuated more effectively than train-sized tubes. Evacuation was the key concept that was supposed to make Hyperloop high speed. Safety is much less of an issue also if you know that a person (at least an adult) is not going to fit in there, and you make damned sure that there are still safety systems in place in case somebody's toddler wanders away from daycare.
So if you happen to be near existing pipeline rights-of-way, some dudes who know that fossil fuels won't last forever would also be very interested in leasing those rights for a parallel pipe that carries goods rather than gas, and eventually you might end up retrofitting the gas pipes and have two pipelines in the right-of-way.
In other words, pneumatic tubes; which are "retro future" at this point, but there's nothing that says they can't come back again.
The last time I ordered something online, I tracked the package for *days* of standard delivery. How cool would it be to see a 20 minute leg across an entire state when tracking your packages?
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by srobert on Saturday October 17 2020, @11:12PM (5 children)
Public Transportation in Vegas has always been at odds with the taxi cab companies.
Years ago I was acquainted with Las Vegas billionaire, Milton Schwarz, (now deceased) who owned at that time the largest taxi cab company in Nevada. The county had constructed a monorail system which provides limited service along the Las Vegas strip between the convention center and to some of the hotels ostensibly "to relieve traffic congestion". It doesn't get many riders and has been a financial boondoggle of public funds.
Once I commented to Milton that "The monorail system would have really had a much better impact on traffic, and been more successful financially, if they had extended it a few miles further south to the airport to transport people to the hotels. I can't understand why the media doesn't talk about that, or why it hasn't been put up as a referendum in the county elections." I was grinning a bit as I said it.
Milton suddenly looked at me very seriously and stated "The monorail will never go to the airport." I got the impression that I had just threatened to burn his mansion. I think that was his way of telling me that the county commissioners and local media were pretty much bought and paid for. I never dared to bring it up again.
Silly me, I thought we lived in a democracy.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Sunday October 18 2020, @01:52AM (4 children)
Silly me, I thought we lived in a democracy.
This IS a democracy. Well, democratic republic, but that's generally what people mean these days by that term (unless they mean a democratic monarchy like the UK). It's just as much a democracy as any other in the world today.
However, it's also a very corrupt democracy, so it's similar to countries like Russia, Brazil, Guatemala, Mexico, El Salvador, and Honduras.
If you thought it was comparable to places like Germany, Norway, Denmark, etc., then you are sadly mistaken. Just like the idea of Mexico or Brazil having the low levels of corruption enjoyed by western European nations is clearly fantasy, so it is here. What's different is that in places like Mexico or Russia, everyone knows and accepts the corruption. For some reason, in America, people just can't seem to mentally accept the fact that this country really isn't any less corrupt than those other countries.
(Score: 5, Funny) by srobert on Sunday October 18 2020, @03:57AM (2 children)
Oh sure, corruption is going to happen. But it's really shocking to see it here in Las Vegas.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Sunday October 18 2020, @05:25AM (1 child)
Oh sure, corruption is going to happen. But it's really shocking to see it here in Las Vegas.
Is this a joke? You're talking about a city that was founded by organized crime.
(Score: 2) by srobert on Sunday October 18 2020, @04:32PM
:-D
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 18 2020, @04:31AM
well, the corruption...er, kissing Mayor Daley's ring, was understood by the city aldermen (political district reps), and hence the local people who worked to keep those aldermen in their places. If Alderman Joe stood up to Daley on something, especially on "principle" and during the winter? Sorry to hear that the garbage pickup was delayed for so long, and the snow took so long to get cleared from those streets (by the garbage trucks)... and the rest of the city's reactions was just a resigned shrugging of the shoulders.
Then there's the whole state thing with the Illinois Tollway Authority (a reasonable effort by down-state Illinois to siphon at least some $$$ from the Chicago metro area). Their headquarters offices are well-apportioned, to say the least.
It was certainly interesting living in Chicagoland for a few years, and then hearing about "corruption" in my current local politics, which are almost all total amateur hour operations in comparison.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 17 2020, @11:54PM
If you allowed more than 100 occupants per hour, the risk of a French teacher and a Muslim occupying one car at the same time would be too high and you'd have further delays cleaning up after the beheading.