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posted by martyb on Wednesday September 01 2021, @09:41AM   Printer-friendly
from the too-much dept.

Here's how much electricity it takes to mine Bitcoin and why people are worried:

Bitcoin, Ethereum, Dogecoin and other popular cryptos reached record highs this year, raising concerns about the amount of energy needed to mine the coins. Warehouses of Bitcoin mining rigs run 24 hours a day, consuming more power than the whole of Argentina. As the energy bill for crypto mining rises, so does the amount of carbon and waste, adding to the growing climate crisis.

[...] When Bitcoins are traded, computers across the globe race to complete a computation that creates a 64-digit hexadecimal number, or hash, for that Bitcoin. This hash goes into a public ledger so anyone can confirm the transaction for that particular Bitcoin happened. The computer that solves the computation first gets a reward of 6.2 bitcoins, or about $225,000 at current prices.

[...] The Digiconomist's Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index estimated that one Bitcoin transaction takes 1,544 kWh to complete, or the equivalent of approximately 53 days of power for the average US household.

To put that into money terms, the average cost per kWh in the US is 13 cents. That means a Bitcoin transaction would generate more than $200 in energy bills.

Bitcoin mining used more energy than Argentina, according to an analysis from Cambridge University in February. At 121.36 terawatt-hours, crypto mining would be in the top 30 of countries based on energy consumption.

[...] Access to renewable energy at a low price, however, attracts crypto miners. China's Sichuan Province has the country's second-largest number of miners due to its abundance of cheap hydroelectric power. Its rainy season helps to generate so much energy that cities are looking for blockchain firms to relocate in order to avoid wasting power.

[...] The operators of Ethereum, the second-most-popular blockchain behind Bitcoin, are doing something to change the amount of energy its miners consume. Ethereum 2.0 is an upgrade that will be completed sometime this year or in 2022. Instead of computers trying to solve computations -- referred to as proof of work -- computers will be randomly selected to create blocks for the blockchain, while computers that weren't selected will validate those blocks created.

To ensure miners do their job, each miner has to stake 32 Ethereum coins, also called Ether, which is equivalent to $85,000, hence the term for this protocol is called proof-of-stake. This change reduces the amount of energy needed for Ethereum mining.


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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:25AM (33 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:25AM (#1173212)

    That comes out to 4.6 billion gallons annually. Calculate the kilowatt hours, then talk to me about how concerned you are over Bitcoin mining energy consumption.

    • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:32AM (4 children)

      by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:32AM (#1173214)
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:58PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:58PM (#1173466)

        Is this what online dialogue in the 2020s has been reduced to?
        A: X is bad!
        B: whatabout Y?
        C: whatabout Z?

        How about addressing whether X is bad, that was the point raised? Start your own journal-based thread about Y or Z if it really matters to you. Heck, post a story for the main site to carry if you can finda suitable one.

        Stay on topic, please, less of the whataboutism.

        • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @05:13AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @05:13AM (#1173570)

          The article states "Bitcoin mining used more energy than Argentina" which is a 'whataboutism' itself. If the article being discussed is using 'whataboutisms' it seems reasonable to point out how absurd their 'whataboutism' with other examples.

          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:45AM

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:45AM (#1173585) Journal

            This is not about whataboutisms - it is using something comprehensible to indicate the size of something that the average person would otherwise have little concept of - just like measuring things in football pitches or Libraries of Congress. It is not a criticism of how much power Argentina is using any more than it would be a criticism of the size of a football pitch or the Library of Congress.

            --
            [nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday September 02 2021, @07:04AM

            by FatPhil (863) <{pc-soylent} {at} {asdf.fi}> on Thursday September 02 2021, @07:04AM (#1173592) Homepage
            Nope, that's not saying Argentinian consumption is bad/worse.

            The number of people who don't understand whataboutisms is about equal to the number of people who use whataboutisms, and I suspect the overlap between the two populations is very high. Both sitting cosily at sloping-up part of the bellcurve of human intelligence.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:33AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:33AM (#1173215)

      To be fair, the US military is making cuts. For example, they just cut and run out of Talibanistan.

      • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @06:25PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @06:25PM (#1173351)

        Thanks Trump! /no_s

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:59AM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @11:59AM (#1173219)

      There's enough whataboutism in politics already. Let's not bring it into discussions of technology.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:14PM (2 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:14PM (#1173381) Journal

        Whatabout the massive inefficiency (and pollution) of cruise ships as luxury superspreader events, but without producing a single bitcoin that could be melted down into its constituent bits? [that melting would require even more energy]

        --
        The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Acabatag on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:10AM (1 child)

          by Acabatag (2885) on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:10AM (#1173494)

          Cruise ships aren't really about luxury now, if they ever were. They are about cramming as many stacks of tiny cabins as possible into a ship. And they're about cheap buffet dining.

          Some had hopes that the pandemic would run the Cruise business under. Cruise ships are festering incubators of disease. There was a fantasy of towing them all out into deep water and sinking them.

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:28PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:28PM (#1173681) Journal

            I wish that fantasy could be a dream come true.

            Cruise ships are floating restaurants petri dishes of diseases. People from all over crammed together in a confined space with no way to escape (other than jumping).

            --
            The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by GlennC on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:07PM (4 children)

      by GlennC (3656) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:07PM (#1173220)

      While I am not advocating for the military, it has people and equipment that can (at least potentially) be used for other purposes.

      Likewise, if a bank note becomes worthless, the paper it's made from is still potentially useful.

      A coin that is no longer currency can be melted down and used to make other things.

      If a crypto is no longer a store of value, what use can it be put to?

      --
      Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:33PM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:33PM (#1173224)

        Interestingly, both the military and money are primarily used as "behavior shaping tools" in global society.

        We can "what about the military" all day long... how many aircraft carrier groups does it take to fund all of NASA? I believe during GWII the fuel used to power just the air conditioning for the troops exceeded the NASA budget, for years at a time.

        The shame of Bitcoin is that it's basically brand loyalty (another behavior that is easier to exploit than it is to shape) which is keeping the high cost proof of work cryptocurrency so popular vs. more efficient proof of stake and other "brands" of cryptocurrency, and popularity is what drives its value, and its energy consumption.

        --
        🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @09:23AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @09:23AM (#1173635)

          Bitcoin is used to shape behavior as well, i.e. banks and governments behavior.

          In a nutshell:
            - since the financial crisis in 2008, it was decided to "save" banks and corporations from bankruptcy by "printing" money (i.e. a sort of "lending to pay loan" mechanism). This vastly increased inflation (i.e. loss of value of the currencies)
            - some corporations (paypal, etc.) decide by themselves to deny people to access their services without due process (no court order)

          Bitcoin is about not allowing those behavior anymore.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:01AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:01AM (#1173468)

        They can be concatenated, and used as one-time pads.

        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:48AM

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:48AM (#1173586) Journal

          True, but there are much easier and cheaper ways of doing the same thing.

          --
          [nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:13PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @12:13PM (#1173221)

      That B is worse than A does not by extension make A acceptable. Following this logic, a serial killer could be absolved of guilt because the number of killings were small relative to some other (far more lethal) occurrence.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:05PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:05PM (#1173229)

        But whataboutism is the ONLY thing the "conservatives" have now. It is the only arrow in their quiver.

        • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:16PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:16PM (#1173270)

          There you go again.

          • (Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:16PM (2 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:16PM (#1173382) Journal

            When whataboutism is your only hammer, all topics begin to look like a thumb.

            --
            The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Friday September 03 2021, @03:42PM (1 child)

              by hendrikboom (1125) on Friday September 03 2021, @03:42PM (#1174085) Homepage Journal

              What about whataboutism?

              For that matter, what about the proud Toad Legions, waiting for their ratio of flies?

              • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Friday September 03 2021, @04:51PM

                by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 03 2021, @04:51PM (#1174114) Journal

                The Proud Toad Legions need to be sure they are legally parked so that their car isn't toad away.

                --
                The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:49PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:49PM (#1173305)

          Technology. Specificially, military technology. And, here you are, stuck millennia in the past, talking about bows and arrows.

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:10PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:10PM (#1173379) Journal

            Whatabout: in a number of decades, we might be back to using bows and arrows again.

            --
            The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:05PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:05PM (#1173230)

      And by the same standard, if I kill ten people a year you'd mention some country (say Belarus) that kills thousands a year and ask how concerned people were about my yearly murder spree.

      That is not the way (as Mando would have said).

    • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:07PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:07PM (#1173232)

      Yes, that, and what about Hillary's emails?

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:26PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:26PM (#1173319)

        How many emails did Hillary kill?

        (I am European - we don't kill emails here, we delete them).

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by Acabatag on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:12AM

          by Acabatag (2885) on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:12AM (#1173496)

          Hillary wipes them, like with a cloth.

    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:52PM (4 children)

      by shortscreen (2252) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:52PM (#1173243) Journal

      4.6 billion gallons of diesel would seem to equate to ~180TWh? That's somewhat more than the 121TWh worth of crypto mining quoted in TFS (which also corresponds to a period of one year per TFA).

      Military is definitely a big waster of energy and other things. But who is going to make a decision to reduce it? There are more people with real decision making power to scale back crypto mining usage.

      And BTW, is military also hogging all the video cards? ;)

      • (Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:13AM (3 children)

        by ChrisMaple (6964) on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:13AM (#1173498)

        The purpose of the military in a good country is to protect the lives of the people in that country. Bitcoin does not protect lives. Bitcoin does not perform any function that could not be performed more efficiently in a different manner.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:41AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:41AM (#1173508)

          Hahahahahahhahaha!!!! That's a good one! "Protecting people" by making enemies of the rest of the world through banditry and intimidation.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:39PM (1 child)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:39PM (#1173669) Journal

          Bitcoin does not perform any function that could not be performed more efficiently in a different manner.

          Such as [soylentnews.org]:

          [AC:] Bitcoin is used to shape behavior as well, i.e. banks and governments behavior.

          In a nutshell:
          - since the financial crisis in 2008, it was decided to "save" banks and corporations from bankruptcy by "printing" money (i.e. a sort of "lending to pay loan" mechanism). This vastly increased inflation (i.e. loss of value of the currencies)
          - some corporations (paypal, etc.) decide by themselves to deny people to access their services without due process (no court order)

          Bitcoin is about not allowing those behavior anymore.

          No matter how efficient your government-backed fiat currencies and your corporate payment processors, you can't trump a currency that needs neither.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @07:34PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @07:34PM (#1173830)

            Vastly increased inflation? Inflation has been sitting on the floor for years. The FED had been trying to raise it for a long time, but they ran out of rope with essentially zero interest rates. Pandemic spending has finally bumped it up, but inflation has not been an issue at all for a very long time.

            I'm quite happy on my "fiat" currency (though I don't use that word with a sneer as some seem to) where its ups and downs are insulated from Twitter and whether Musk is in a buying or selling posture.

  • (Score: 2) by GlennC on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:26PM (13 children)

    by GlennC (3656) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:26PM (#1173237)

    I think that I may have been misunderstood. The point I had intended to make is:

    If a bank note becomes worthless, the paper it's made from is still potentially useful.

    A coin that is no longer currency can be melted down and used to make other things.

    From that, the question I have is:

    If a crypto is no longer a store of value or a currency, what use can it be put to?
    Furthermore, is that use worth the amount of energy used to create the crypto?

    --
    Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
    • (Score: 5, Funny) by shrewdsheep on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:28PM (4 children)

      by shrewdsheep (5215) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @01:28PM (#1173238)

      The blockchain provides a source of pseudo random numbers (they were expensive to produce, so they must be high quality).

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Thexalon on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:01PM (3 children)

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:01PM (#1173244)

        they were expensive to produce, so they must be high quality

        And by that logic, any business can increase the quality of their goods by becoming more inefficient in their manufacturing and distribution, and raising the price accordingly.

        --
        "Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:18PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:18PM (#1173311) Journal

          Oh yeah, they caught on to that ages ago. It's amazing how much money you can make when you subordinate everyone and everything else to making money.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:12AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:12AM (#1173470)

          How the fuck has your idiotic I'm-too-dumb-to-recognise-sarcasm post been upmodded?

          You deserve:
          -1 for not detecting the joke
          -1 for not understanding the joke
          -1 for going out of your way to respond to the joke
          -1 for spelling out how utterly you don't understand sarcasm.

          Upmodders on crack too.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @10:35AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @10:35AM (#1173646)

            We caught on fast enough...

            Hence, the upmods.

            We are not as dumb as you might think.

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:22PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:22PM (#1173252) Journal

      While it may be true that mining bitcoin consumes electricity, once you have some bitcoin you can use it to pay for electricity. So what's the actual problem?

      As long as there is unlimited bitcoin waiting to be found, there will be unlimited electricity produced to sell in exchange for that valuable bitcoin.

      It seems this could get into a feedback loop and create vast nearly unlimited amounts of both electricity and a vast bitcoin economy. Is there any down side?

      Bitcoin requires effort, thus electricity, to produce. Electricity merely requires generation plants, which require money, eg bitcoin, in order to operate.

      This seems to be a safe and wise plan to produce unlimited bitcoin and unlimited electricity with no possible drawback. What could possibly go wrong?

      --
      The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
      • (Score: 2) by GlennC on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:58PM (1 child)

        by GlennC (3656) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:58PM (#1173261)

        While it may be true that mining bitcoin consumes electricity, once you have some bitcoin you can use it to pay for electricity. So what's the actual problem?

        The problem is that you assume that the electricity provider accepts bitcoin.

        To put my question in another format; What if Bitcoin becomes worth $0.00?

        --
        Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:09PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:09PM (#1173267) Journal

          As Bitcoin value approaches zero dollars, much, much more bitcoin must be mined. This increased bitcoin mining must occur prior to the electricity provider foolishly cutting off the electricity being wisely used to create that additional bitcoin which can be used to pay the bill. (and power for video games, up to 1.5 hours per day on weekends, and 3 hours per day on holidays)

          In the event of loss of utility power, gasoline generators can be used. To remove any concerns about the environmental impact, I would point out that Home Depot has LOTS of green portable generators! [homedepot.com]

          Shirley, the utility company would accept bitcoin which can be processed back into the electricity used to create it.

          --
          The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:08PM (3 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:08PM (#1173290)

      The bitcoin blockchain provides a permanent record of historical movement of funds. It's a public ledger, and it can be used long into the future to document and track criminal activity...

      --
      🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:20PM (2 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:20PM (#1173383) Journal

        What about an intermediate party that launders bitcoins? It mixes bitcoins into a single large wallet. Then disburses funds out to other individuals, obfuscating whom is paying who.

        --
        The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday September 01 2021, @08:53PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @08:53PM (#1173405)

          Money laundering might be the second oldest profession. Tracing money through laundering operations? Not as easy as pulling a bank statement, but still possible. I think Monero is trying to be a "true anonymous coin" by design, Bitcoin certainly isn't. However, just using Monero is like surfing the web through Tor - you've instantly put yourself on a short list.

          --
          🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:22AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:22AM (#1173504)

          Close, but backwards:

          obfuscating who is paying whom.

    • (Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:44PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:44PM (#1173670) Journal
      Keep in mind the costs too. You don't need to dispose of a bunch of paper or metal, should bitcoin become valueless. Just write over the records with your porn collection, should you feel the need to erase all traces of it.
  • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:27PM (8 children)

    by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:27PM (#1173253)

    but...

    [...] When Bitcoins are traded, computers across the globe race to complete a computation that creates a 64-digit hexadecimal number, or hash, for that Bitcoin. This hash goes into a public ledger so anyone can confirm the transaction for that particular Bitcoin happened. The computer that solves the computation first gets a reward of 6.2 bitcoins, or about $225,000 at current prices.

    This happens when a Bitcoin is traded? Not created?

    Or does whoever wrote this article have no idea what they're talking about?

    Supply

    The successful miner finding the new block is allowed by the rest of the network to reward themselves with newly created bitcoins and transaction fees.[121] As of 11 May 2020, the reward amounted to 6.25 newly created bitcoins per block added to the blockchain, plus any transaction fees from payments processed by the block.[122]

    Transactions
    See also: Bitcoin network

    Transactions are defined using a Forth-like scripting language.[6]:ch. 5​ Transactions consist of one or more inputs and one or more outputs. When a user sends bitcoins, the user designates each address and the amount of bitcoin being sent to that address in an output. To prevent double spending, each input must refer to a previous unspent output in the blockchain.[124] The use of multiple inputs corresponds to the use of multiple coins in a cash transaction. Since transactions can have multiple outputs, users can send bitcoins to multiple recipients in one transaction. As in a cash transaction, the sum of inputs (coins used to pay) can exceed the intended sum of payments. In such a case, an additional output is used, returning the change back to the payer.[124] Any input satoshis not accounted for in the transaction outputs become the transaction fee.[124]

    Though transaction fees are optional, miners can choose which transactions to process and prioritize those that pay higher fees.[124] Miners may choose transactions based on the fee paid relative to their storage size, not the absolute amount of money paid as a fee. These fees are generally measured in satoshis per byte (sat/b). The size of transactions is dependent on the number of inputs used to create the transaction, and the number of outputs.[6]:ch. 8

    -Wikipedia

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:59PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:59PM (#1173263)

      It seems weird to me too. I guess that since every node has to get on board and verify the transaction, they're saying that every node's energy usage adds up to be this huge number. They're already mining and using all that energy, so it seems like they're kinda double dipping here with their calculations.

      I think the crypto world has begun to understand the unsustainable amount of energy bitcoin may require, and many of them are being developed with new ways to verify transactions that are much lower in energy costs. Ethereum 2.0 going live soon is supposed to massively reduce the energy, and those alt coins are specifically designed for this purpose.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:26PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @07:26PM (#1173385) Journal

        At my company, a few years ago, they had outside presenters come in and offer a talk to R&D people about how blockchain worked. It turned out to be highly attended.

        Basic idea, as I remember it, recording a ledger entry requires proof of work. (computational work) Third party decentralized ledgers are updated. What is considered a "valid" addition to the ledger is the consensus of what the most ledgers agree is valid. The proof of work makes it hard(er) to fake.

        A key idea is that it is decentralized. There is no master authority or ledger.

        Feel free to correct anything I am mis remembering. It was a one time presentation a few years ago.

        --
        The server will be down for replacement of vacuum tubes, belts, worn parts and lubrication of gears and bearings.
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:01PM (#1173265)

      Or does whoever wrote this article have no idea what they're talking about?

      Well, if you go to the article, you can see that's it's written by one Oscar Gonzalez. Clicking on the link to his profile, we learn that:

      Oscar Gonzalez is a staff reporter for CNET. Originally from San Antonio, Texas, Oscar started his journalism career in 2008 with his own website. Since then he's worked for the San Antonio Current, NBC, CBS Radio, TheStreet, Inverse and WNYC. When he's not gaming or consuming the latest geek shows, he's helping produce podcasts, strategizing about social media and stating how great the state of Texas is. Oscar is a proud graduate of Palo Alto College, Texas A&M University-San Antonio, and the Newmark School of Journalism.

      He's a journalist. This means that, indeed, he has no idea what he's talking about.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:57PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:57PM (#1173307)
      The funny thing is years ago the bitcoin fanboys were going on about how bitcoin would make transactions cheaper.

      But now that bitcoin transactions cost so much the fanboys are spouting buckets of different BS - e.g. "You can use some other tech (that's not Bitcoin) that makes Bitcoin transactions cheaper". Yeah, like stuff similar to conventional electronic/bank transactions where adding/subtracting numbers doesn't use as much energy or computer hardware as a small country? lolz.

      I've no doubt that the value of bitcoin will continue to rise and lots of people will continue to get rich out of it.

      But from a tech perspective bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies seem a rather wasteful use of hardware, resources and energy.
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Acabatag on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:42AM (2 children)

        by Acabatag (2885) on Thursday September 02 2021, @01:42AM (#1173509)

        The only way people can get rich off of bitcoin is for other people to get poor. It's essentially zero-sum though the size of the 'pot' slowly grows. Nothing of value is produced, so the only way wealth can be generated is by extracting it from others.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:09AM (1 child)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:09AM (#1173540) Journal

          Nothing of value is produced

          The people who have driven the Bitcoin price to $50k per have a different opinion on that matter.

          • (Score: 1) by Acabatag on Thursday September 02 2021, @09:55PM

            by Acabatag (2885) on Thursday September 02 2021, @09:55PM (#1173854)

            They have simply extracted that money from others.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by anotherblackhat on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:53PM

      by anotherblackhat (4722) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @05:53PM (#1173334)

      This happens when a Bitcoin is traded? Not created?

      Yes.

      Essentially, mining and updating trades is the same action.
      Only the winner gets to update the ledger, so for any trading to happen, somebody has to find that hash.
      In addition, the winner gets a mining bonus of a few bitcoins (currently 6.25)
      Each mined block can update about 4000 trades, or about 7 trades per second.

  • (Score: 2) by dak664 on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:51PM (1 child)

    by dak664 (2433) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @02:51PM (#1173259)

    Or just the miner that won the race? TFA doesn't say.

    Multiply by one or two hundred, more with premium transaction fees?

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:03PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @04:03PM (#1173283)

      Bitcoin conartists don't want you to think about the electricity consumed by the losers of the race, who far outnumber the winner of the race.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Tork on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:21PM

    by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:21PM (#1173271) Journal
    Call me cynical but I have a feeling that crypto-mining could lead to a boon in building nuclear power plants. Imagine a whole quarter of the capacity being used to mine BTC just for the handful of the execs/owners in the place. Then imagine their reaction to the slightest dip in service. While I'm the sort that thinks nuclear plants will be run by penny pinchers who don't mind cutting dangerous corners, if the actual operation of that plant lead directly into their pockets ... you know you might convince me it could work safely.

    That said I haven't finished cup of coffee #1 yet so I reserve the right to go "what was I thinking?!" later.
    --
    🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01 2021, @03:45PM (#1173279)

    The Digiconomist's Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index estimated that one Bitcoin transaction takes 1,544 kWh to complete, or the equivalent of approximately 53 days of power for the average US household.

    Or the equivalent of driving roughly 5000 miles in an average EV.

  • (Score: 2) by anotherblackhat on Wednesday September 01 2021, @06:04PM (3 children)

    by anotherblackhat (4722) on Wednesday September 01 2021, @06:04PM (#1173338)

    More electricity is used to run air conditioners than to mine bitcoin.

    I look forward to the day someone uses space-based solar power satellites to mine bitcoin.
    We can have a twofer — people complaining about the uselessness of mining bitcoin AND the uselessness of the space program.

    Bitcoin using a lot of electricity isn't the problem.
    The problem is a lot of electricity is generated using fossil fuels.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:27AM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @12:27AM (#1173476)

      More whataboutism, I see.

      And you're wrong - the ultimate problem will always be the eventual lack of usable energy, or material resources for the generation thereof, the laws of thermodynamics compels it.

      • (Score: 2) by anotherblackhat on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:20PM (1 child)

        by anotherblackhat (4722) on Thursday September 02 2021, @06:20PM (#1173806)

        Whataboutism? Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that using air conditioning was even worse, so we shouldn't pay attention to bitcoin miners.

        I meant to imply that what people do with electricity that they pay for is none of your damn business.
        Whether they use it to run air conditioning, watch porn, or mine bitcoin doesn't matter.
        Claiming a particular use is "bad" is an attempt to assert your moral views on others.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @08:04PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 05 2021, @08:04PM (#1174779)

          Except that bitcoin IS objectively a waste of energy. The goals of bitcoin can be accomplished much more efficiently with a different implementation.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Captival on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:12AM

    by Captival (6866) on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:12AM (#1173542)

    Argentina really needs to step it up. What a bunch of slackers.

  • (Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:21AM

    by DrkShadow (1404) on Thursday September 02 2021, @03:21AM (#1173548)

    The article states,

    The Digiconomist's Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index estimated that one Bitcoin transaction takes 1,544 kWh to complete,

    and that is a link (https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption) which states,

    reveals that an average Bitcoin transaction requires several thousands of times more energy [than a VISA transaction].

    That "Requires" phrase (to the end of sentence) is a link (https://digiconomist.net/renewable-energy-will-not-save-bitcoin) that says, nicely,

    1. The numbers are wrong

    [...]

    The most conservative method we could possibly use to estimate Bitcoin’s energy consumption is by simply taking the total network computational power, and divide this number by the computational power of the most efficient Bitcoin mining machines. We know how much electricity these machines consume under ideal circumstances, so applying this method we would find an average electricity consumption of around 330 kilowatt-hours (KWh) per unique Bitcoin transaction[.]

    So, they're defining one bitcoin transaction (purchase) as equal to the cost of mining one new bitcoin. This is false.

    I honestly am very curious: how much does it cost to have all of the various stake-holders compute the proof-of-work changes to the blockchain required to solidify the transaction? How much does a bitcoin transaction cost? 330KWh, or 200KWh, is clearly not the correct number. It doesn't cost $200 to pay someone $5 in bitcoin.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @05:19AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @05:19AM (#1173571)

    The article states "Bitcoin mining used more energy than Argentina". So if we just nuke Argentina and eliminate all their power consumption, we can offset bitcoin consumption.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @04:38PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02 2021, @04:38PM (#1173767)

      This seems backwards to me.

      Bitcoin > Argentina. So subtracting from Argentina has no impact.

      I think what it means is that if the world stops using Bitcoin, than Argentina will no longer consume any power. Sure, I'd be game to try out that experiment. Maybe it will finally disprove the laws of thermodynamics.

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