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posted by martyb on Friday September 10, @07:46AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the get-vacinated-and-wear-a-mask dept.

With COVID out of control, Biden unveils hefty vaccine mandates:

President Joe Biden on Thursday unveiled a sweeping six-pronged plan to try to regain control over the COVID-19 pandemic, which is wildly raging once again in the US.

[...] The main focus of the president's "Path out of the Pandemic" plan is on reducing the number of unvaccinated people in the country. As such, the plan's most prominent elements are hefty vaccination requirements for millions of federal employees, health care workers, school employees, and even employees of private businesses.

Biden signed an executive order Thursday requiring COVID-19 vaccines for millions of federal workers plus millions more federal contractors. The new vaccine mandate eliminates a previous option that allowed federal workers to undergo regular testing in lieu of vaccination.

In addition to mandating vaccines for federal workers, Biden will also require vaccination for over 17 million health care workers who work at facilities that receive federal funding. The administration had previously required vaccination for all staff of federally funded nursing homes. The new requirements will extend vaccine mandates to hospitals, dialysis facilities, ambulatory surgical settings, and home health agencies—most facilities that receive Medicaid and Medicare reimbursements.

[...] The administration is also working on a rule—to be implemented through the Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration—that will require employers with 100 or more workers to ensure that their workforce is fully vaccinated or submits to regular COVID-19 testing. The rule is expected to apply to over 80 million employees nationwide. OSHA is also working on a separate rule that will require those employers to provide paid time off to get vaccinated.

For schools, Biden will require vaccination for the nearly 300,000 staff in federal Head Start and Early Head start programs. He will also put pressure on governors to get all teachers and school staff vaccinated. Last, the administration will push more schools to implement regular testing, which will be funded by $10 billion the administration already allocated to schools earlier this year.

Also at CNN, www.aljazeera.com


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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:37AM (35 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:37AM (#1176532)

    Force vaccination is an interesting approach. Wonder if that will backfire, either people will go look for other jobs. After all it's not like government employees are among the most high paying positions.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 10, @08:39AM (9 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @08:39AM (#1176534) Homepage Journal

      Tyrants don't care if you go looking for another job. The tyrants will just write another edict that you can't buy groceries until you've been vaxxed. That will take care of almost everyone.

      --
      alles in Ordnung
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Friday September 10, @02:55PM (4 children)

        by Opportunist (5545) on Friday September 10, @02:55PM (#1176635)

        Why bother, if we just stop trying to keep the idiots alive when they get infected, that problem would solve itself.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:41PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:41PM (#1176658)

          Yup, that would solve about ... oh, maybe, at a maximum estimate ... ummm ... (remove shoes and socks ... left foot first ...)

          ...two percent. Actually (much) less, but let's pretend it's two percent.

          And then what, herd immunity?

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:56PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:56PM (#1176665)

          Naturally it would, but likely not the way the media made you expect. From observing the statistics in Sweden, the bad COVID seems self-limiting; once the small non-resistant stratum is gone (or maybe vaccinated? but Israeli situation argues against that possibility), nothing is happening to all the rest.
          https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se [who.int]

          • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Saturday September 11, @10:17AM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday September 11, @10:17AM (#1176937)

            Well, I take what I can get. 2% fewer idiots is still 2% fewer idiots. We might eventually get below the critical mass, given a few more pandemics.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @03:24PM (2 children)

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @03:24PM (#1176649) Journal

        And of course. COVID testing for work if teh Hitler but drug testing for work is teh Jesus!

        • (Score: 2, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 10, @08:11PM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @08:11PM (#1176780) Homepage Journal

          Tell me, Oh Wise Monkey, on what did you base your presumption that I approve of drug testing at work? Or, are you just sitting in your tree making meaningless noise that almost sounded like thought?

          --
          alles in Ordnung
          • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday September 10, @08:53PM

            by krishnoid (1156) on Friday September 10, @08:53PM (#1176795)

            Now that you mention it, should monkeys (and/or your general primate) be vaccinated against COVID-19? Are they carriers and/or susceptible to the virus?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:54PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:54PM (#1176796)

        Runaway is just upset that HIS tyrant forced him to get vaxxed, and there was nothing he could do about it. And then there were the mysterious bags of groceries.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:43AM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:43AM (#1176535)

      Or it provides the face saving they need. I know quite a few people that are using various workplace vaccination requirements that way. They'd get scorn any other way, but now they get the continued group support and the vaccine.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:07PM (9 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:07PM (#1176574)

        My workplace offered 100 bucks bonus to get vaccinated.

        Turns out people's greed exceeds their care for themselves or others. Everyone got it pretty promptly except a couple die hard religious holdouts.

        • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:50PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:50PM (#1176632)

          That's the thing at this point most of the unvaxxed that can still be persuaded are likely to go for rewards, either money or ability to go back to business as usual. The return of mask mandates and the related BS is counterproductive. For most of the unvaccinated, it's just not compelling to get vaccinated and still have to live as if you're not. It's also not scientifically necessary. The vast majority of the people getting seriously ill are either unvaccinated or have compromised immune systems. If you're not hanging out with people that are in one of those two groups, then there's really no point in the masks or most of the BS.

          It also requires that the vaccinated have more regard for the lives of the unvaccinated than the unvaccinated do for themselves.

          The CDC and governors need to stop lying to the people, at this point, only idiots take what they're saying without a grain of salt. Keep the 6 feet whenever you can and avoid being places where you can't keep the distance and you'll be good to go. Just the 6 feet alone would be sufficient to cut down on the chances to a huge degree.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:56PM (#1176703)

            Offering rewards could backfire though, as people put off getting the vaccine to see how high the rewards will go. It is also unfair to the people who went and got the vaccine early. For being good citizens they miss out on the reward. Good luck getting them quickly vaccinated for COVID-2X.

          • (Score: 5, Touché) by edIII on Friday September 10, @08:03PM (5 children)

            by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @08:03PM (#1176776)

            I'm sorry, but you're an idiot (and I'm not flaming you by calling you an idiot, it's simply what you are). You are in no position to say what is scientifically necessary. Scientists are the only ones in the position to make such statements. As for the masks and "related BS" being counterproductive, it's the opposite, productive. As in, it produces results.

            Your observation about "hanging out with people" is just ignorant. I don't hang out with anti-vaxxer, anti-mask idiots at all. Primarily because that would be taking huge risks of getting a breakthrough infection I don't want. However, while I don't hang out with them, I do have to spend time near them pumping gas, getting groceries, standing in line at the bank, picking up food at a restaurant, etc. Since I'm not ignorant and cursed with sophisticated intelligence and understanding, I take extreme measures to curb all interaction with society now. Pumping gas as late as possible in remote areas, getting everything delivered, online financial transactions, and foregoing restaurants and entertainment venues permanently.

            What idiots like you have in common is your incredible ignorance. Ignorance in how probability works, how selections and permutations work, how thermodynamics work and air flow work, particle suspension in air, virus transmission, etc. A N95 mask isn't 100%, so every single second I'm near an idiot like you, I'm making selections. Selections against the probability that you are spewing out particles of COVID into the air, selections against my mask, selections against my body and immune system. The probabilities are in constant flux depending on the environment. If we are BOTH wearing masks, then guess what? Even if you are infected, the selections we both make against the air particles and our masks have a far lower probability of having COVID. That is because your mask when worn properly is making selections, and the probability of COVID particles escaping you into our common shared air is LOW. That's why even with a mask I refuse to go to the grocery store if there is anybody in there whatsoever without a properly (both mouth and nose) worn mask. I won't make those selections because the risk is simply too high.

            You ignore by default any scientist that could enlighten you as either part of a conspiracy, or pushing a political agenda. That is the most dangerous behavior I can possibly think of, and it will be written on the tombstone of America.

            The 6ft rule is fucking stupid too. It always was. It may be 6ft at STP, but I guarantee you that it changes with temperature, humidity, and wind speed. It's not a magic shield like one would see on a sci-fi show. Likewise, the virus isn't in possession of decision making faculties capable of choosing not to infect AC because it was 6.1 ft away, or not to infect somebody because they weren't in the building while you were in it unmasked, or to not infect somebody because those two people don't hang out on a regular basis. So when you act like a child and remove your mask just because nobody else is in the building, or watching you, you vastly increase the risk to others. Even taking the mask down for a second to speak vastly changes the probabilities around you, and to the detriment of the public.

            What I find amazing since this was all politicized by that piece of orange shit, are the constant whines about freedom. Yet, I never heard the same volume of complaints about forced vaccinations for children to attend public school. Those that had religious reasons to protest homeschooled their children, and the rest went to school. Only now because of the politics and rampant ignorance is it all of the sudden about "freedom".

            Masks are incredibly effective in curbing the spread, and everybody got the vaccine this might just be over. Instead due to idiots such as yourself, COVID is never going away now and likely to mutate beyond the protections of the vaccine. It's small comfort that it kills idiots like you by the hundreds each day, because once you are gone, the problem still remains.

            So 5 years from now when we are still wearing masks, and our country has fundamentally changed, you know who is responsible for it. Idiots like YOU.

            *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap* *golf clap*

            --
            Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @12:47AM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @12:47AM (#1176844)

              When I was growing up, cowardice was regarded by everyone as a huge character fault. Now in 2021 you are flaunting it and somehow expecting everyone to bend over backwards to accommodate the cowardly you. This thing will kill the society more surely than a hundred "pandemics" such as this puny one, all going on at once.

              Every year, TEN TIMES MORE people just like you die from other causes than from your scary, scary virus. Yet you got told The Virus is what you should fear, and you obliged. You are not just plain coward; you are a mindless coward. Congratulations, drone!

              • (Score: 5, Touché) by edIII on Saturday September 11, @01:31AM (3 children)

                by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 11, @01:31AM (#1176852)

                Again, the idiots speak. Taking precautions is cowardice. Wearing a mask is cowardice. Taking a vaccine is cowardice. If I'm flaunting my cowardice, you are sure as hell flaunting your toxic masculinity and arrogant, selfish, stupidity. You remind me of Vizzini from Princess Bride, "Perhaps you're relying on your great strength to save you...". COVID doesn't give a fuck about your bravado, and your YOLO attitude is the character fault. It's not like you're an idiot risking your life like in death defying stunts that only affect you and your family. You risk us all.

                Bend over backwards? Wearing a mask during a pandemic, stand 6ft away, and take your fucking medicine is bending over backwards? What a fucktard you are. You didn't consider that is you asking us to bend over backwards to accommodate your selfishness and arrogance? What is killing society is the overly masculine Fox-news programmed idiots such as yourself. You're the reason what some hospitals now need to resort towards rationing of care. You know extreme measures like battle field triage?

                You act like a big man calling it a scary, scary, viwus! News flash dipshit, which is ironic because you would claim it fake, over a half million people have died from it, and even more are going to suffer long term effects.

                As for people dying from those other causes, I don't remember 10 years ago hearing that hospitals were all of the sudden overwhelmed by those other causes. I don't remember a time when the health care system was this stressed. I don't remember a time when a dozen teachers died in the first couple of weeks of school and they needed to shut down the school system. You're attempt to downplay the virus only makes you seem like the mindless drone programmed by those like Tucker Carlson and related filth at Fox News.

                You're the perfect example of what I was talking about.

                --
                Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
                • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @06:55AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @06:55AM (#1176900)

                  you know someone's desperate beyond belief when all they have to attack someone's argument in the year of our lord 2021 is "bawwww you're a stupid toxic fox news watching chud!!!". every fucking word of this post comes off as neural network-generated reddit gibberish and i am appalled that mouthbreathers like you are allowed to blindly spew propaganda like this online, let alone on a website that's as unassuming and low-key as this one. with every single passing day i continue to quietly pray that a solar flare comes along and knocks us back into the early 1900s so i never have to read boomer-y agitprop about a crappy, ineffective bioengineered cold ever again

                  • (Score: 2) by edIII on Saturday September 11, @11:21PM

                    by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 11, @11:21PM (#1177122)

                    They made an argument?

                    Don't worry. Keep not wearing masks and not taking the vaccine and you will be off this planet soon enough.

                    --
                    Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @08:49PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @08:49PM (#1177299)

                  Taking precautions is cowardice. Wearing a mask is cowardice. Taking a vaccine is cowardice. If I'm flaunting my cowardice

                  So...you have asteroid impact insurance, right? And you have your alien abduction antidote with you at all times, right? I'll bet you don't even drive--because driving increases your risk of dying.

                  What? You don't? Are you a fucking nutjob, religious extremist?

        • (Score: 2) by driverless on Saturday September 11, @10:43AM

          by driverless (4770) on Saturday September 11, @10:43AM (#1176944)

          That's the thing with these strong principles, they're often only strongly defended when there's nothing at stake. There's a saying in the advertising industry, "Ask people whether they care about their [online] privacy and 100% will say yes; ask them whether they're willing to give up their privacy for a McDonalds voucher and 100% will say yes". Same with vaccination, "muh freedums" goes away as soon as you offer someone money over it.

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:54AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:54AM (#1176549)
      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:29PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:29PM (#1176759)

        some fucking Jew modded a link "troll".

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @03:28PM (9 children)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @03:28PM (#1176650) Journal

      Force vaccination is an interesting approach. Wonder if that will backfire, either people will go look for other jobs. After all it's not like government employees are among the most high paying positions.

      OSHA is saying the right to a workplace free from recognized hazards includes not breathing air containing a virus responsible for a global pandemic.

      So, companies with more than 100 people also need to take steps to ensure my workplace is free from the COVID virus.

      • (Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:00PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:00PM (#1176667)

        It is much more cost-efficient to ensure their workplace is free of you.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @04:57PM (1 child)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @04:57PM (#1176705) Journal

          That's some wicked burn pointing out how much money I make!

          Will your follow-up be to call me really sexy?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:03PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:03PM (#1176712)

            The follow-up will be to call your trolling manual really lame.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @11:12PM

        by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @11:12PM (#1176823) Journal

        After everyone in your workplace is vaccinated and there are still viral particles hovering about, what then? OSHA shuts you down? Or will it suddenly be acceptable?

      • (Score: 4, Touché) by srobert on Friday September 10, @11:30PM

        by srobert (4803) on Friday September 10, @11:30PM (#1176827)

        I used to work with a lot of smokers back when few workplaces had rules prohibiting smoking. (Yeah, I'm getting old. I also remember cigarette ads on television). When smoking prohibitions began, some of the smokers ranted and raved about their "God-given right to smoke anytime, anywhere they Goddamned well pleased." They considered any restraint on smoking to be a tyranny rivaling that of King George III. Most of those guys that I knew back then died from cancer and emphysema years ago. And now I get to enjoy a workplace free of cigarette smoke, and free of the idiots who advocated for it.
        Workplace rules on vaccinations and masks during a deadly pandemic? It may take longer than I'd like, but I'm expecting the pattern to repeat itself.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @05:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @05:24AM (#1176885)

        I'm fine with OSHA requiring specific levels of expected transmission rates, but not on forcing vaccinations. You can get reduce COVID though things like air filtering, better circulation, and UV sanitizers. The "how" shouldn't be part of the requirements, only the goal. If we magically find a better way of solving the problem (like a virus fighting chewing gum), companies won't be able to use it because being vaccinated will have already been codified into law.

        As someone else already noted, the vaccines don't fully stop transmission, only the serious effects. If all we use is vaccines then we're all going to get COVID eventually. That might not matter, but it's something to be aware of.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Username on Saturday September 11, @01:37PM (2 children)

        by Username (4557) on Saturday September 11, @01:37PM (#1176988)

        There are multiple pandemics: Cold, Influenza, Bronchitis, Pneumonia, Strep, Food Poisoning diseases, Water Born diseases, etc.

        At which point do you consider work free from disease based hazards?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @07:27PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @07:27PM (#1177274)

          Once the risks and treatments are well understood of course! There is no magic line we can draw since diseases all operate differently.

          AGAIN, if people had masked up and social distanced properly we would have been pretty normal a year ago. If people got vaccinated we would have been back to normal soon after. How about you stop whining about the safety precautions and start whining about the selfish assholes that refuse to help us fix the problem?

          • (Score: 2) by Username on Monday September 13, @07:42AM

            by Username (4557) on Monday September 13, @07:42AM (#1177378)

            There is vaccine. It works. Those who want it, have it. Those who don't, don't. Majority of the world is already back to normal. Everyone is happy except you, and the fascists who think like you. We all don't have to salute the flag and march in lockstep. People are allowed to disagree.

    • (Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Friday September 10, @07:50PM (1 child)

      by TheGratefulNet (659) on Friday September 10, @07:50PM (#1176771)

      for a long time (maybe still?) some employers would 'force' you to piss in a bottle, to get the job.

      anyone asking me for that, they'd hear crickets and/or dialtone.

      and yet, 'we' allowed this type of government control to exist. has no reason to exist and its based on racism and other bullshit.

      now, we have a 1-in-100years event and people are dying by the hundreds of thousands! idiots are refusing vaccines and even masks.

      yes, force it. I'll hold people down and you stick them. I'D ENJOY THAT.

      own the cons.

      its time(tm)

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
      • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday September 10, @08:57PM

        by krishnoid (1156) on Friday September 10, @08:57PM (#1176797)

        Just buy them a nice sleeveless shirt, distract them, apply a topical anesthetic, shot number one, show them a dead hornet if they complain about arm pain, then do it again a month later. Don't have to get them riled up about it.

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:49AM (18 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:49AM (#1176536)

    Now they get to take credit for the fall trough as people in the south open their windows but its not yet cold enough in the north to close them.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1504_lunar_eclipse [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @09:00AM (17 children)

      There is no fall trough. That was a concept speculated back in early 2020 simply because some of the other coronaviruses have temperature/humidity variations, but if you look around the world there's no coherent seasonal behaviour. The UK's peaks in 2020 lines up exactly with a trough in 2021, for example. Warmer Germany, again, had a 2020 peak that lines up with a trough in 2021. Spain likewise. With less than 2 years of data, of course this isn't a disproof of your claim, but you don't have the evidence to support your claim either yet. And that's unfortunately how science works - the one making the claim has to provide the evidence that's strong enough to make other more mundane explanations unlikely.
      --
      I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:27AM (9 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:27AM (#1176545)

        > "There is no fall trough"

        Get back to me in 1-2 months. Then after the winter when theres a bunch more cases in the north US.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Friday September 10, @12:06PM (8 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @12:06PM (#1176573) Journal
          And more vaccine/behavioral backsliding to cause that. What I find obnoxious about this whole thing is that we figured this stuff out in 1918 and yet are still doing the same thing over and over again, refusing to pay attention even now. Until covid is eliminated, every attempt to open up society and strengthen the factors that spread covid, will result in an increase in covid infections and the resulting considerable harm. The places that keep covid restrictions in place will have significantly less infections and deaths from covid than the places that don't.

          Here, for the past six months, a key component of new infections by covid has been the unvaccinated population. You can complain how unfair it is that you are such an easy target, but covid doesn't care. Even libertarians recognize that your rights end when you infringe on other peoples' rights.
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday September 10, @02:05PM (4 children)

            by HiThere (866) on Friday September 10, @02:05PM (#1176614) Journal

            Don't expect COVID to be eliminated. The vaccine doesn't create an immunity to catching COVID, though it's pretty good at that, it's much better at keeping you from having a severe case. But that means COVID keeps being passed around. It also looks as if the resistance to catching it in the first place wanes rapidly. ISTR 2%/month being mentioned.

            OTOH, with SARS (COVID is sars-cov-2) TCell immunities lasts many years. It's too soon to be certain, but that's probably true with COVID also. So serious cases should rapidly decline. Of course, that's just my, non-expert, estimate, and there are considerably worse scenarios. But it's been a long time since I read anyone I believed to be competent in the field say they expected to eliminate COVID.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:53PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:53PM (#1176634)

              Indeed, the 1918 flu strain is still around, it's just that for a variety of reasons it doesn't kill many people. That's more or less what we should expect with covid-19 doctors will get better at treating it, vaccine manufacturers will get better at creating vaccines and over time it will get less dangerous to those it infects. The likelihood of it ever going away is pretty much non-existent. It just mutates too quickly. And even if we do manage to eliminate it, you're talking decades of concentrated effort by which time, it will probably be a minor nuisance.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 11, @01:35AM (2 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 11, @01:35AM (#1176854) Journal

              The vaccine doesn't create an immunity to catching COVID

              It creates resistance. Enough resistance over enough of the population is enough to do covid in.

              It also looks as if the resistance to catching it in the first place wanes rapidly. ISTR 2%/month being mentioned.

              So we need booster shots every so often? Not seeing the problem here.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @07:24PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @07:24PM (#1177059)

                There is zero chance of herd immunity to covid. That doesn't happen for viruses that primarily replicate in the mucosa.

                And it especially aint gunna happen due to the extremely limited immunity induced by the vaccines.

          • (Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Sunday September 12, @09:49AM (2 children)

            by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Sunday September 12, @09:49AM (#1177197)

            Now explain Sweden

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday September 13, @03:26AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday September 13, @03:26AM (#1177358) Journal
              What about Sweden? They seem pretty similar to the US both in approach and consequence.
            • (Score: 2) by dry on Monday September 13, @05:01AM

              by dry (223) on Monday September 13, @05:01AM (#1177365) Journal

              Their Constitution doesn't allow restricting mobility so they've paid the price in deaths, compared to their neighbours. Not being stupid, they've done better then some.

      • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Friday September 10, @12:03PM (2 children)

        by shrewdsheep (5215) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @12:03PM (#1176571)

        I beg to disagree. The recent peaks coincide with the spread of new variants. Otherwise there is a clear summer/winter pattern. The US in its totality - being so large - will show overlap thereby diminishing any patterns on the aggregated scale.

        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @12:31PM (1 child)

          It's easy to see patterns that aren't really there. Many of the interesting countries (e.g. ones where variants have started) have shown the opposite trend to what you mention. There isn't enough data to be sure one way or another still, but the data I've seen so far tells me there isn't one.
          I have no idea what north america's doing, probably having superspreader events, but in 2 other continents, according to 2 randomly chose countries, whatever was non-tiny and visible on the worldometers world list I have open, your autumn lull seems to be a peak: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/poland/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/peru/ .
          --
          I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday September 10, @02:10PM

            by HiThere (866) on Friday September 10, @02:10PM (#1176617) Journal

            Actually, I believe early data from China showed a mild tendency for the prevalence to decrease with rising temperature. Nothing really significant though. A reasonable guess is that people were spending more time outside.

            OTOH, this was a really early study. I read it shortly after the Washington Choir event was noticed.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:07PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:07PM (#1176671)

        but if you look around the world there's no coherent seasonal behaviour.

        WTF you are speaking about, man?

        Look at the deaths charts, not the positive-tests ones; the latter are hopelessly muddied by governments varying the number of tests in a day, through various changes in testing policy. The deaths, however, do align pretty well, if you take into account climate differences.
        https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/gb [who.int]
        https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se [who.int]

        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday September 11, @12:55PM (1 child)

          by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Saturday September 11, @12:55PM (#1176974) Homepage
          > Look at the deaths charts, not the positive-tests ones

          I was. Why did you assume I wasn't? If you're just going to make up the thing that you're arguing against, you're making yourself not worth arguing against.

          Go find another windmill.
          --
          I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @09:07PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @09:07PM (#1177092)

            OK, so you were just plain lying. Thanks for the clarification.

      • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:25PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:25PM (#1176727)

        The only real relationship is that people catch it indoors. Winter peaks are due to people avoiding the cold. Summer peaks are due to people avoiding the heat.
        Outdoor "super-spreader events" simply aren't, especially those during daylight hours. Staying 6 feet away from everyone in a building with a recirculating air supply is pointless, if they have it you'll catch it. If the 6 feet rule was sufficient, you could let all the smokers go back to smoking at their desks.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @08:50AM (85 children)

    My polio jab was "routine", as there was "routine polio vaccination". No-one got in a flap then, in fact we welcomed it. Ditto the BCG for TB.

    What's so different about covid that you view vaccination as a threat?
    --
    I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
    • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:15AM (18 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @09:15AM (#1176543)

      Polio is a viremic virus, i.e. it primarily replicates in the blood. In that case an intramuscular vaccine could work, although a mucosal one is still better. Coronaviruses primarily replicate in the mucosa, so IM vaccines are not expected to work very well as they will not induce mucosal immunity: https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1009509 [plos.org]

      Indeed we now know the vaccines don't have any meaningful impact on infection or transmission. As was expected based on established science since the 1960s.

      The other difference is the covid vaccines target only the fastest mutating region of one out of 29 coronavirus proteins, while polio vaccines targeted the entire virus. And everyone vaccinated develops immunity towards this exact same sequence, creating an immunity monoculture. This is setting the human race up for an unprecedented disaster: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02 [berkeley.edu]

      Then there is the fact that vaccination had no effect on all cause mortality in the randomized controlled trial: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1 [medrxiv.org]

      So there is essentially no benefit to the vaccine but it risks devastation of the human race. The wise decision is to vaccinate as few people as possible with these covid vaccines.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Myfyr on Friday September 10, @09:59AM (12 children)

        by Myfyr (3654) on Friday September 10, @09:59AM (#1176550)

        Just in case anyone is actually paying attention to a random AC nutcase, none of those links show what AC claims they do.

        The first is talking about herd immunity from infection being unreliable for mucosal infections, and suggests that vaccines may be a better bet.

        Indeed, it is possible that mRNA immunization provides more durable protection than SARS-CoV-2 infection, given that vaccination induces higher antibody titers than infection [18].

        So, almost the exact opposite of what the AC claimed.

        The second link is about genetic monoculture being a bad idea (e.g. Irish potato famine). Vaccines don't result in genetically identical humans, so this is totally irrelevant.

        From the third link:

        BNT162b2 had a favorable safety profile and was highly efficacious in preventing COVID-19.

        So the exact opposite of what AC claimed.

        Malice, or incompetence, who knows? *shrug* In any case, be very wary of disinformation on the internet.

        • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:15AM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:15AM (#1176554)

          Oops, first link was to the wrong paper (although its a related good one). This explains the mucosal immunity issue well: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg9857 [science.org]

          The other issues you point out are problems with reading comprehension on your part. For example, how is your quote the opposite of what I said regarding all cause mortality?

          • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:27AM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:27AM (#1176555)

            Wow, you can almost hear the whoosh as you move those goal posts...

            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:41AM (6 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @10:41AM (#1176557)

              Well, the vaccines have negligible effect on infection and transmission. No effect on mortality.

              There is a decrease in severe covid (for now, it is only a matter of time until the vurus mutates around this), but since there is no effect on mortality that must mean there is an increase in some other major health issue. Or the risk of severe covid is a rounding error on top of qll the other risks.

              Assuming you are a 50 yr old male, your chance of dying in the next year is 1/200: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html [ssa.gov]

              Covid may change that to 1/190 or something but so does going on that road trip. You don't want to create an immunity monoculture, those that join are at far greater future risk than they are avoiding via the vaccine. And you better bet there are military labs all over looking to target exactly that immunity too. It is a MAD scenario.

              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @03:12PM (4 children)

                by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @03:12PM (#1176644) Journal

                No need to move goalposts when you're so willing to just blatantly lie!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:48PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:48PM (#1176695)

                  You know that perfectly well, doing that a dozen times a day.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:15PM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:15PM (#1176720)

                    Playing the martyr is a despicable way to spread lies.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:33PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:33PM (#1176761)

                      I am sure you know that intimately. Now go project the death rattle of your conscience onto somebody of same persuasion as you.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 13, @08:17PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 13, @08:17PM (#1177491)

                        Irony thy name be dumbshit brainwashed rightwinger.

              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:36PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:36PM (#1176765)

                You don't want to create an immunity monoculture

                What the hell are you talking about, do you actually know what a monoculture is?

                A monoculture is when a group of individuals are all genetically identical, this means that they would have a near identical response to an infection and that an infection that can evade the defenses of one can do so for all (see afore mention Irish Potato Famine).

                A vaccine doesn't do this, a vaccine does expose all individuals to an identical stimuli (or 3 different ones since the 3 shots are all distinct) but the bodies reaction to those stimuli is an individual response, each body is activating its own best defense against the spike proteins it is exposed to. This is also why the vaccine is less than 100% effective, some people's best defense still sucks. The point of a vaccine is the same as a reconnaissance mission in a war, you want advanced warning of what you are up against.

                Don't get me wrong, a monoculture IS a bad thing, but you get that by cloning (like we often do in the agriculture industry for plants) not by vaccinating.

        • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @11:48AM

          Thank you Myfyr, you are a scholar, and a gentleman.
          --
          I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday September 10, @02:22PM

          by HiThere (866) on Friday September 10, @02:22PM (#1176622) Journal

          He's actually got several valid points. A mucosal immunity would be preferable. The current vaccines don't prevent, but merely decrease the probability of spreading the disease. They decrease it a lot, but there's disagreement as to how much. At least one vaccine for mucousal immunity is/was in development. Perhaps it will be sterilizing.

          I don't think any vaccine, or the disease itself, will provide permanent immunity. But they will probably stimulate TCells such that any future exposure will result in only a minor case. Antibodies seem to wane relatively quickly. Unfortunately, it's hard to measure TCell reactions, so it's almost never done.

          OTOH, several of the vaccines target more than one part of the virus. Some of them only target parts of the spike protein, but the spike protein seems to be necessary for the virus to successfully reproduce, so that should work. We need to watch carefully how variants like the mu-variant spread, but for now the vaccines seem very good, though not perfect.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Friday September 10, @11:53PM

          by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Friday September 10, @11:53PM (#1176834)

          All the vaccines from one vendor have identical mRNA sequences, but immune systems are highly variable from person to person for compelling reasons. I would bet that my immune response to my Moderna shots is detectably different from, say, my wife's. The antibodies are the result of a trial-and-error selective breeding program in germinal centers and there's no reason to expect the results to be identical between any two people.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:06AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:06AM (#1176561)

        Thanks for the links.

        The first link about why we can't rely on herd immunity with covid was educational and compelling. However your claim that "the vaccines have no meaningful impact on infection or transmission" is not supported by the paper. It could only perhaps be inferred as a possible long-term issue for the unvaccinated. The current strategy of vaccination is optimal for individuals in the short and long term.

        The 2nd link, where you suggested it was setting the human race up for disaster, and the 3rd link about causes of mortality --- there is no logical chain of reasoning that justifies what you claim.

        My take on this is that we had a population initially that had little immunity to covid before the vaccines. Now we can choose to have immunity. My guess is that natural immunity will develop through childhood exposure, and it will just be like another flu in a generation.

        Those who choose to be unvaccinated are not doing anyone a favor, including themselves. But Uncle Darwin doesn't care, he'll gladly take a shot at removing them from the gene pool.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:18AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:18AM (#1176563)

          Uncle Darwin says the virus will mutate to avoid the most common immune defence, which is going to be the non-robust one induced by the vaccine.

          That is 150 year old science 101. I'll be part of the diverse community, you be part of the monoculture. We have seen how this works out over and over but people still deny the science.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @12:33PM (2 children)

            Which monoculture? The J&J monoculture, the Pfizer monoculture, the Moderna monoculture, the Astra Zeneca monoculture, the Sinovac monoculture, or the Sputnik monoculture?
            --
            I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:31PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:31PM (#1176652)

              Those are all the same except sinovac, which is the entire virus. AZ and Sputnik are missing the double proline mutation they put in the others to prevent cleavage though.

              So the most robust immunity to variants will go Sinovac >>> Sputnik/AZ > Pfizer/moderna/JJ

              All contribute to the anti-S1 monoculture, but Sinovac exposes the person to natural variations since it is inactivated virus, and AZ/Sputnik allow cleavage which then alliws anti-S2 immunity.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:12PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:12PM (#1176672)

              The "spike protein sequence the Chinese gave" monoculture.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @10:48AM (32 children)

      by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @10:48AM (#1176558) Journal

      It's not just vaccination.

      Our would-be medical dictators keep lying, moving goal posts, and doubling down on failed policies. They've been allowed to usurp power to deal with the covid threat and now they're taking us for a joy ride. We've had governors unilaterally expand their powers, big tech expand their censorship regime (and they admit now that it is coordinated with government officials, a clear violation of constitutional rights), and medical police stationed in public places to check your papers. We've had huge collateral damage to the economy, randomly band-aided over with more deficit spending that gave handouts to some and left others in the dust. We've had a looming backlog of unpaid rents and mortgages, bailouts for favored corporations and local governments, and the billionaire class has enjoyed a massive windfall.

      Meanwhile, every milestone they've set out to meet in terms of controlling the pandemic has been a meaningless wild goose chase. Flatten the curve, wear masks, stay 6 geet away, don't go to gyms/churches, don't travel, and where has it gotten us? Today the headline says "COVID Out of Control." At one point in Fauci's endless, ever-changing monologue, he said that getting to 70% vaccination would be enough to achieve herd immunity. We got 70% vaccination. Do we have herd immunity? No. We have "COVID Out of Control." Well, fuck. It never was under control, and these people will never get it under control, will they? If the headline is correct, then they should resign, and we should admit that jackboots can't stamp out a virus.

      Though we can't assume that the headline is correct either. With most people being vaccinated, especially in the vulnerable groups, the media fear machine's constant cheers of "cases!" "cases!" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Even if the vaccine doesn't prevent infection or spread, vaccine proponents are confident that it does reduce the severity of the disease. If everybody can just shrug off the virus then it doesn't matter if we have more cases, does it?

      The vaccine takes the already low risk of covid and makes it even lower. But it is still nonzero. Is that what the current 'crisis' amounts to? Is that what they are still trying to solve? Let's look at the impending policy edict from resident Biden. His plan to further reduce the already low risk to the vaccinated is to... punish the unvaccinated? Gosh, that can't be right. How would that help the vaccinated survive covid? Oh, and boosters! Because if some vaxx is good, then more vaxx must be better!

      This is not a good faith policy proposal at all. It's pure BS, straight from Pfizer executives via Joe's mouth, with a side dish of spite, scapegoating, and authoritarianism run amok.

      Politicians can't cure a virus, but corrupt politicians can find a way to increase their money and power from it.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:47AM (20 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @11:47AM (#1176564)

        As someone that’s had covid I can tell you first hand it isn’t low risk. I got it from contact with someone that had contact with someone at work that had it. No direct contact but it spread that quick. I initially tested negative but then started getting sick anyhow. I am healthy and in my 30s, yet I was too sick to leave bed for weeks. I later rested positive for a period of 5 weeks.

        The reason the “goal posts keep moving” is because some people foolishly would rather throw a hissy fit about wearing a mask or staying home for a few days or getting a vaccine than just suck it up, do it for the betterment of everyone and be done with this thing. Instead they go kicking and screaming through each method of prevention so we as a society are forced to add yet another layer of prevention.

        New Zealand proves this is possible. They did a true lockdown and wore masks. Not a we’ll mostly stay home except when we don’t. Guess what? Virtually zero covid. But here in the U.S. you stomp your feet and say “don’t tell me what to do” which gets you more instructions on what to do because enough are too childish to make the simple right choices of our on cognition.

        The very thing you claim to hate - government telling you what to do will continue to get worse simply because people are unwilling to do some fairly simple things that my 4 year old can do without throwing a fit.

        If you got an MMR or tetanus or any one of the many other vaccines in your lifetime what grievous harm is there with getting a little shot? Are you afraid of needles? Do you thing Trumo went too fast with operation warp speed in getting it developed and shipped? Do you think they are going to reprogram your dna to vote Democrat? Get real. We both know politicians aren’t smart enough for that.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:04PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:04PM (#1176572)

          I had covid, could barely get out of bed for a week. Then I was given a few grams of vitamin C and started getting better within hours.

          Covid uses up your antioxidants, probably via methemoglobinemia.

          There was a promising study on giving vitamin c but then it got cancelled halfway through when it showed the patients improving faster. Then due to smaller than expected sample size they said it doesnt work.

          Anyway, good luck to you. Be careful who you listen to because theres lots of sharks circling.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:55PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:55PM (#1176588)

            Here we go with the vitamin c.

            That’s what we call anecdotal evidence.

            I took vitamin c, vitamin d and a multivitamin when I had covid. I was still sick for weeks after taking vitamins.

            Maybe I didn’t mix it with bleach and horse dewormer in the right ratios?

            • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:36PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @03:36PM (#1176655)

              Taking 100 mg isn't going to help, when you need 10 g/day to avoid deficiency. In this study they gave 8 g/day but then ended the study early when the vitamin c group was improving faster:

              https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776305 [jamanetwork.com]

              So, watch out for sharks.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:16PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:16PM (#1176784)

                Or was the local definition of "spam" silently changed to "all relevant scientific facts the left do not like"?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:05PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:05PM (#1176714)

              That’s what we call anecdotal evidence.

              The plural of anecdote is data.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @01:27PM (3 children)

          by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @01:27PM (#1176594) Journal

          Your argument boils down to "beatings will continue until morale improves." How much further are you willing to escalate this just so you can blame your policy failure on someone else's lack of obedience?

          FYI, I already got the vaxx, voluntarily.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by EJ on Friday September 10, @01:51PM (3 children)

          by EJ (2452) on Friday September 10, @01:51PM (#1176606)

          COVID-19 isn't the disease we should be most concerned about. CNN and Fox News are the disease. They have both been proven to cause brain damage.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:28PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:28PM (#1176624)

            CNN and Fox News are the disease.

            Simple cure. Inject them with bleach

          • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @03:18PM

            by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @03:18PM (#1176648) Journal

            I can simply not watch FOX.

            I can't simply not breath the antviaxx moron air at work (for eight hours).

          • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:18PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:18PM (#1176721)

            So sock puppets get banned and EJ returns along with VLM. Coincidence?

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 10, @02:20PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @02:20PM (#1176621) Journal

          ... what grievous harm is there with getting a little shot? Are you afraid of needles? Do you thing Trumo went too fast with operation warp speed in getting it developed and shipped? Do you think they are going to reprogram your dna to vote Democrat?

          Oh, come ooon! Everybody knows it's about globalist Gates microchiping people to stop them being scared of the commie Soros. That and the 5G, 'twas always about 5G.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:38PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @02:38PM (#1176631)

          i've had covid. I got it at a super-spreader event; the packed, mandatory, all-hands meeting where some retard from HR told everyone what we were to do to avoid workplace covid.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:05PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:05PM (#1176669)

          You seemed to have a rather bad case. Did you get any treatment from your doctor or even see your doctor for it? I think part of the problem with the politics of this situation is that a lot of doctors don't treat covid. They just expect you to beat it on your own or get to the point of hospitalization. I think it has shifted a noticeable degree now, but I still hear of people that get no treatment. There are doctors that do treat covid and a lot of people seem to have fairly mild cases when they get treated early. I just recently found out that the monoclonal antibody treatments made available under EUA can be had for free like the vaccine. I've also heard that some doctors won't order them for their patients.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:56PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:56PM (#1176702)

          what grievous harm is there with getting a little shot?

          https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data [openvaers.com]

        • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday September 11, @12:01AM

          by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday September 11, @12:01AM (#1176835)

          >As someone that’s had covid I can tell you first hand it isn’t low risk.

          I have a relative who was not far past 30 when he caught COVID, probably at work.

          He said it was the sickest he's ever been in his life. One of his colleagues went to the ICU.

          The instant vaccines became available for his age group, he joined the hybrid immunity group.

          His employer is a big firm. Now he's going to be surrounded by vaccinated fellow employees. I am glad. Even hybrid immunity is some amount less than 100%.

          What motivates me the most is the figure that 10-30% of cases end with long haul symptoms.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Friday September 10, @12:09PM (1 child)

        Thank you for explaining the problem.

        The problem is when vaguely related things all get lumped together. It's even worse than a slippery slope fallacy, as the jumps to the next "and also" can be in any direction.

        Don't get me wrong, I not saying even a fraction of anything positive about how those in positions of federal responsibility for public health in the US addressed the issue, so some of your complaints are valid, they're just unrelated to a present vaccination policy. Fucki and Ballszack should be turned into fucking labrats, in my honest opinion. Hanging's to good for them, unless it can somehow be incorporated into some kind of biological experiment. Something to to with tensile strength of neck tendons? Yup, OK, approval granted - just make it slooooow. Maybe start on the arms and legs first, before the neck, so more data can be gathered. For science, and the advancement of mankind. Of course, if some president, I forget which one, some time during the late 2010s hadn't nuked the NSC's Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense then perhaps there would have been a more coherent response the global biothreat? Bummeur, as they say in France.
        --
        I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
        • (Score: 3, Redundant) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @01:57PM

          by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @01:57PM (#1176611) Journal

          You're correct that multiple issues are getting lumped together. If we had found ourselves in a different political landscape, with higher levels of trust, candor, and calm rationality, then we could construct policies that serve the public good without provoking a shitstorm everytime. But that isn't where we are, and nobody is even trying to get there. Nobody is trying to build trust, build consensus, or reach a compromise. Instead they are trying to grab more pork for their friends and protect them from accountability, while trying to censor, bully, undermine, and discredit their foes. The authorities taking an adversarial position against large sections of the public is counter-productive and irresponsible. It's like we're being governed by tweets now.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by sjames on Friday September 10, @03:36PM (4 children)

        by sjames (2882) on Friday September 10, @03:36PM (#1176654) Journal

        So you're claiming all those hospitals on total diversion are just what, an illusion? That fact that children's hospitals are also filling up is what? Just the worst bad luck in the history of bad luck? You don't see a school confidently opening up as normal with no protective measures and then going virtual a week later because too many students and faculty are out for quarantine as a truly epic fail?

        What part of 99% of people needing hospitalization for COVID are unvaccinated do you not understand?

        Aren't you tired of getting sand in your ears yet?

        • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @08:31PM (3 children)

          by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @08:31PM (#1176789) Journal

          The healthcare system in the USA is made up of for-profit enterprises. Hospital capacity is a function of their business model. Their business model is no one's responsibility but theirs.

          After you've nationalized the hospitals, then you can come back and try that argument.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by sjames on Friday September 10, @10:04PM (2 children)

            by sjames (2882) on Friday September 10, @10:04PM (#1176809) Journal

            Wow, you're really bending backwards to miss the point. Kinda Matrix like.

            The hospitals mostly had adequate capacity until they started filling with anti-vaxers and COVID deniers.

            • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Friday September 10, @11:10PM (1 child)

              by shortscreen (2252) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 10, @11:10PM (#1176822) Journal

              That's not how I remember it, but it also doesn't explain why mandates are coming down for the benefit of for-profit hospitals. What will you say tomorrow when there's an executive order forbidding you from watching porn online justified by saying that Comcast's network is too congested? Should you have to comply with that, to help out Comcast? Even if you don't use Comcast?

              • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday September 10, @11:25PM

                by sjames (2882) on Friday September 10, @11:25PM (#1176826) Journal

                Nobody will die if I congest Comcast's network with traffic I paid for the right to cause.

                Keeping the hospitals from being pushed past 100% isn't really for the benefit of hospital profits, it's to keep people who need hospitalization from dying from lack of medical resources.

                Are you actually trying to claim that people who don't get severe COVID and put on a ventilator are somehow deprived? Am I to understand that people are getting sick for the entertainment value? You're fighting for the 'right' to get sick and die?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:14PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:14PM (#1176674)

        You have bureaucrats out of control. Everything else is symptoms of that deadly disease.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:29PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:29PM (#1176745)

          Yeah, wtf is Texas doing not recalling Abbot? If we didn't have politicians using a pandemic for political maneuvering we'd probably be back to normal now. If only the Venn diagram of anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers wasn't a single circle, one can dream!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:01PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @08:01PM (#1176774)

            This pandemic IS political maneuvering. Wait till they be dodging responsibility for the hyperinflation to come, you've seen nothing yet!

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by deimtee on Friday September 10, @05:34PM

        by deimtee (3272) on Friday September 10, @05:34PM (#1176731) Journal

        Today the headline says "COVID Out of Control." At one point in Fauci's endless, ever-changing monologue, he said that getting to 70% vaccination would be enough to achieve herd immunity. We got 70% vaccination. Do we have herd immunity? No. We have "COVID Out of Control." Well, fuck. It never was under control, and these people will never get it under control, will they? If the headline is correct, then they should resign, and we should admit that jackboots can't stamp out a virus.

        That 70% would assume random selection. If you have 70% in one area who are all vaccinated and 30% in another area who are not then you are not going to get herd immunity among the 30%.
        It doesn't have to be geographical separation either, anything that separates them will work - social, employment, family. It needs to be 70% of the group you are in.

        --
        No problem is insoluble, but at Ksp = 2.943×10−25 Mercury Sulphide comes close.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday September 10, @12:16PM (9 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Friday September 10, @12:16PM (#1176581)

      What's so different about covid that you view vaccination as a threat?

      What's different is that antivaxxers have spent about 20 years telling people that tested and approved vaccines are scary even though they have approximately zero evidence to justify their claims. When you look at all the wild speculations trotted out to argue against Covid vaccines, they're basically identical to what was trotted out to argue against MMR vaccine, and HPV vaccine, and even the decades-old DPT vaccine.

      Once you strip away the BS, what you're left with is "I don't understand what's going on with these things, therefor everyone telling me to get it must be up to no good."

      --
      The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by EJ on Friday September 10, @01:04PM (8 children)

        by EJ (2452) on Friday September 10, @01:04PM (#1176591)

        "God will protect me from the disease, but He's not powerful enough to protect me from any possible adverse effects from a vaccine."

        I wonder how many people will get to Heaven and have God tell them, "I sent you two boats, a helicopter, and a vaccine..."

        • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday September 10, @03:11PM (7 children)

          by Opportunist (5545) on Friday September 10, @03:11PM (#1176643)

          If god was so powerful, why didn't he protect anyone from the disease before the vaccine was available?

          He sure had a lot of time to prove his worth. Guess he either can't or doesn't want to do it.

          In other words, either he's impotent or an asshole. I'll let you decide.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by EJ on Friday September 10, @03:32PM

            by EJ (2452) on Friday September 10, @03:32PM (#1176653)

            Life is not binary. The third option is that God doesn't control every aspect of human life.

            Note the quotation marks I used in my post. I don't have any personal belief that God is responsible for anything that happens to me until I die.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:20PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:20PM (#1176676)

            Dude, you are sadly misinformed; data demonstrate that He very much did.
            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-impact-of-vaccines-on-mortality-decline-since-1900-according-to-published-science/ [childrenshealthdefense.org]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:47PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @04:47PM (#1176694)

            Guess he either can't or doesn't want to do it.

            Or maybe, just perhaps, He is applying a bit of tough love: Matthew 3:7: Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' [biblegateway.com]

            In other words, either he's impotent or an asshole. I'll let you decide.

            There does appear to be assholes aplenty all about us these days. I just don't think in this case God is one of them.

            • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Opportunist on Friday September 10, @04:54PM (2 children)

              by Opportunist (5545) on Friday September 10, @04:54PM (#1176701)

              So you can't test god, I see.

              In other words, god is by definition unscientific. Because one of the fundamental aspects of science is testing your hypoteses.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @02:41AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @02:41AM (#1176869)

                No, you can test God. You may not like the result, but you can certainly try testing Him. This is your last free clue.

            • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday September 11, @12:22PM

              by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Saturday September 11, @12:22PM (#1176960) Homepage
              > I just don't think

              Yup, we detected that
              --
              I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by GlennC on Friday September 10, @12:24PM (10 children)

      by GlennC (3656) on Friday September 10, @12:24PM (#1176583)

      What's so different about covid that you view vaccination as a threat?

      The difference is not in COVID, but in culture.

      We used to look out for each other, and to view ourselves as members of a larger community. However, that doesn't seem to be the case any more.

      "Personal Freedoms" and "Rugged Individualism" seem to be the order of the day, with the attendant finger-pointing and blame-shifting.

      I don't see any way out of this.

      --
      Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @03:36PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @03:36PM (#1176656) Journal

        I think you may be looking through some rose colored glasses there a bit.

        History doesn't repeat but it definitely rhymes!

        From smallpox to polio, vaccine rollouts have always had doubters [racgp.org.au]

        Check the "meme" in there of people vomiting up cows after getting the smallpox vaccine!

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by fustakrakich on Friday September 10, @04:46PM (8 children)

        by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday September 10, @04:46PM (#1176692) Journal

        "Personal Freedoms" and "Rugged Individualism" seem to be the order of the day

        Let's not equate that with the real antipathy people are exhibiting against each other. "Personal Freedoms" and "Rugged Individualism" are perfectly cromulent virtues when not used against one's neighbor, or even strangers they never met.

        Personally, I find the fashion in which republicans have taken up the causes the liberals carried in the 60s to be very amusing. Tragic when people take them seriously and give them credence

        --
        Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @05:04PM (7 children)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @05:04PM (#1176713) Journal

          Those themese are an awful lot like "states rights." They only count for very small list of very specific things that totally don't have a common theme!

          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday September 10, @05:28PM (6 children)

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday September 10, @05:28PM (#1176728) Journal

            Those themese are an awful lot like "states rights."

            To you they would be. Maybe because you leave out personal responsibility for letting things happen?

            They only count for very small list of very specific things that totally don't have a common theme!

            Picking nits again

            --
            Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
            • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Friday September 10, @05:39PM (5 children)

              by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday September 10, @05:39PM (#1176733) Journal

              Let's take "personal freedom" as an example.

              Why do I NOT have the personal freedom to demand someone prove they've been vaccinated before they enter my property? Why are the people who supposedly like personal freedom passing laws banning me from protecting myself on my own property?

              My point about "states rights" is that they suddenly stop mattering when, say, the federal government starts taking people's land to build a pointless wall.

              • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday September 10, @06:00PM (2 children)

                by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday September 10, @06:00PM (#1176740) Journal

                Why do I NOT have the personal freedom to demand someone prove they've been vaccinated before they enter my property?

                You are arguing with the wrong guy. I never said you don't. Don't take me for anti-vax. I have said all along that your democrat response towards bad behavior is typically weak. Why isn't the DOJ charging every disruptive passenger with a felony diversion of an airliner? Those stories are very frustrating. You're supposed to tell people, *MASK UP AND TAKE YOUR MEDICINE, BITCH!*, but no, gotta "compromise", gonna blow the midterms again.

                I still don't see the link between this and property theft. That story is dead for now

                --
                Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:36PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:36PM (#1176747)

                  It is the cost of NOT being authoritarian assholes. The DOJ should not interfere in local airports or airline business, the airlines could prosecute if they wanted.

                  Sure would be nice if fusty had anything other than his narrative to push in every comment.

                  • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday September 10, @07:33PM

                    by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday September 10, @07:33PM (#1176762) Journal

                    :-) It's not up to the airline or the locals. They are committing a felony, breaking federal law that protects our rights. Put your tray-up, bitch

                    --
                    Ok, we paid the ransom. Do I get my dog back? REDЯUM
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:53PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:53PM (#1176772)

                "Colorado judge finds Christian baker broke state discrimination law by refusing to bake a birthday cake for a trans woman"
                https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/18/us/jack-phillips-colorado-baker-discrimination-trnd/index.html [cnn.com]

                Put your arse on either side of the fence. Either people have the freedom to discriminate anyone on their property, or they do not. But instead you lefties want to have your cake and eat it too; want to discriminate everyone not toeing your party line, and not be discriminated no matter what you do.
                This is how an occupying force behaves. Not how fellow citizens do.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @06:27PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, @06:27PM (#1177043)

                  What, ya scared of catching "teh ghey"?

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:46PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @12:46PM (#1176586)

      Yes and Osama bin Laden's offspring also got "routine" vaccine for Polio that was just a covert genetic testing program that led to his deatg. I still wonder, were those poor kids that were used as pawn eventually able to acquire a real vaccine? Well I'm sure CIA doesn't care, and I'm sure that sowing distrust of vaccines to a piint where Polio erradication is no longer likely was also just an unfortunate side effect of doing business as usual.

      Now let's talk about the Government and the faith I have in putting them in charge of my health.

    • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Friday September 10, @02:58PM (3 children)

      by Opportunist (5545) on Friday September 10, @02:58PM (#1176636)

      There's not enough people who saw a loved one struggle desperately for breath. It's kinda convincing when you watch some kid in an iron lung.

      Or on a ventilator.

      There just ain't enough people who died from that crap yet. Give it time, we'll get there.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:46PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @05:46PM (#1176736)

        Well, you're not _wrong_ that anecdata are convincing.

        People are bad at risk analysis that way.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:25PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @06:25PM (#1176743)

        How does struggling to breath from severe Covid compare to struggling to breathe from severe Influenza, or crushed ribs in a car accident?

        Pass the peanuts.
        Waahh! No!!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:43PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 10, @07:43PM (#1176770)

        There just ain't enough people who died from that crap yet. Give it time, we'll get there.

        Given "that crap" kills at most 10% of what other causes do, we most definitely will not "get there", ever.

        Unless the virus-vs-leaky-vaccine contest goes the route of Marek's disease, that is.
        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous [pbs.org]
        But if/when that happens, the dead will likely be better off than the living-from-jab-to-jab, anyway.

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by TheGratefulNet on Friday September 10, @07:53PM (3 children)

      by TheGratefulNet (659) on Friday September 10, @07:53PM (#1176773)

      the rethuglicans - who are not very good at forethought or even deepthought - started this death cult of their own.

      I'm quite ok with it - its a self-fixing problem!

      you guys want to kill yourselves? fine. 100% fine. only problem is that you often endanger others, too, before you finally end yourself.

      the whole fucking south can die in a flood of their lung juice. and they'll still deny that covid is real. but we'll be without the morans, and that's a Good Thing(tm).

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
      • (Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Sunday September 12, @03:13PM (2 children)

        by TheGratefulNet (659) on Sunday September 12, @03:13PM (#1177231)

        fwiw, this is not a troll post; I truly feel this way.

        I'm a little embarassed by it, but only a little; and each time I see the daily news, I am quite ok with my enemy killing themselves.

        yes, it HAS gotton to this 'they are our enemy'. sad, but it is what it is.

        look, if they want to grow up and join the real world, they are welcome. entrance to reality requires something they are just not willing to accept.

        so be it. the deaths WILL continue. and I'll be amused by it all.

        eventually, things will settle down; but by then, tons of R's will be dead.

        --
        "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @04:40PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @04:40PM (#1177239)

          Don't worry, we'll make more of them. Your side will lose. You will die.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @07:44PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @07:44PM (#1177277)

            It is your choice to be stupid and ignore medical advice and die as a result of it.

            It is also your choice to become a domestic terrorist, treat your neighbors as "the enemy", and commit murder in the name of your political leanings. A quick litmus test for stupidity is "are you driven to murderous rage when someone tells you that you are wrong?"

            Polls are showing that... yes, you are stupid and violent! Not a good mix if you want to have friends, participate in regular society, get laid, y'know, all the good stuff.

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