Fix the Hog: Harley, Westinghouse ordered to fix warranties:
Federal regulators have accused Harley-Davidson and Westinghouse of imposing illegal warranty terms on customers and ordered them to fix their warranties and ensure that their dealers compete fairly with independent repair-makers.
The companies have imposed illegal warranty terms that voided customer warranties if they used anyone other than the companies and their authorized dealers to get parts or repairs — restricting their options and costing them more money, the Federal Trade Commission announced Thursday in actions against the Milwaukee motorcycle maker and MWE Investments, which makes Westinghouse-brand outdoor power generators and related equipment.
Under a proposed consent agreement with the agency, the companies will be prohibited from telling customers that their warranties will be voided if they use third-party services or parts, or that they should only use branded parts or authorized service providers.
The companies also will be required to add specific language to their warranties recognizing consumers' right to repair: "Taking your product to be serviced by a repair shop that is not affiliated with or an authorized dealer of (company name) will not void this warranty. Also, using third-party parts will not void this warranty."
(Score: 2) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday June 26 2022, @05:45AM (1 child)
/. ain't got nothing on SN.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday June 26 2022, @06:25AM
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday June 26 2022, @11:49AM (5 children)
Is Tesla next? or will Musk simply not consent to a consent decree?
(Score: 2) by NateMich on Sunday June 26 2022, @01:58PM (4 children)
Can you actually get Tesla parts or repairs anywhere else though? I mean besides maybe one place.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Sunday June 26 2022, @02:40PM (3 children)
At the very least I'm certain there's third parties selling refurbished Tesla-made parts.
And while they are currently still a new and niche manufacturer, as their share of the market expands alternate parts manufacturers will emerge just as they have for the other brands. So long as their right to exist is legally protected.
There may also be some lag as the EV market in total expands. If you buy an off-brand alternator it's likely to be designed to serve in a wide range of vehicles - it's going to take a while before a similarly sized market for EV parts is established.
As right to repair gains momentum it would be nice if it could improve things beyond "the good old days" by somehow encouraging companies to standardize on parts where there's no good (i.e. non rent-seeking) reason to introduce incompatibilities.
As an obvious example - there's absolutely no reason for wheel rims to have incompatible bolt patterns. Encourage manufacturers to standardize, at least at the interconnect points, and it opens the doors for both competition and economies of scale to drive down component costs, generating substantial real wealth in the process.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 26 2022, @03:34PM (2 children)
> there's absolutely no reason for wheel rims to have incompatible bolt patterns.
there's absolutely no reason for wheel rims to have incompatible bolt patterns--on cars of similar weight and weight distribution, with similar wheel offsets.
ftfy
For example, the old Toyota Matrix I inherited is based on the Corolla platform. The Matrix is taller, the center of gravity is higher, so when it turns, there is more weight transfer on the outside wheels. The Matrix has a larger bolt circle than the Corolla.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Monday June 27 2022, @03:58AM (1 child)
So look at it the other way around - What does the Corolla gain by having a smaller bolt circle, rather than using the same sturdier arrangement as the Toyota? A few bucks less manufacturing cost maybe? I bet you more than that would be saved in economies of scale.
I can see your point for commercial and industrial vehicles, which come in a huge range of sizes and loadings - but I'd be willing to bet that one, *maybe* two, sizes of bolt-circles would serve all consumer vehicles with minimal operational penalties. And there's no reason at all for slightly different number of bolts - e.g. make everything 6 bolts, and the ultra-light, budget, NEVs, K-cars, etc. can still use only three.
Similarly, I seriously doubt there's a good reason for having dozens of slightly different sized consumer tires - encourage manufacturers to adopt them in 2- or 4-inch increments and nothing of value would be lost, while the improvements in compatibility and mass-production would generate real wealth and convenience.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 27 2022, @05:43PM
Unsprung mass has significant effects on handling - larger heavier hubs and wheels on the Corolla will have some effect on handling, fuel efficiency and tire life spans. Worsening those three aspects of a much more popular car so it has a bolt pattern (and maybe tires) that matches the less popular Matrix seems like a huge hit for overall efficiency of the system as a whole.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 26 2022, @02:08PM
harley has been bailed out by taxpayers twice.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Opportunist on Sunday June 26 2022, @02:38PM (8 children)
But ... if you repair something I made with inferior parts and the crap falls apart, I should be responsible for the damage (which is pretty much implied with what a warranty would say)?
Keeping independent shops from repairing your stuff is wrong and should be fixed. Making parts only available to dealers paying a premium is wrong and should be fixed. But if someone fixed something, he is responsible for the warranty. You break it you buy, you fix it you warrant.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Sunday June 26 2022, @02:49PM (2 children)
As I recall, generally speaking if the warrantying company can show that the otherwise-covered damages were caused by your unapproved modifications, then they are not liable. And I imagine using non-stock replacement parts would fall under that heading.
The key is that they have to actually show a causal link between the modifications and the damage - they can't just say that your use of used a non-approved muffler voided your warranty, and so they're not liable for replacing the front end that failed due to a manufacturing defect.
(Score: 2) by Opportunist on Sunday June 26 2022, @03:03PM (1 child)
I wouldn't want to deal with that legal nightmare. Proving that would be exceedingly difficult.
I have here a spark plug that kinda works, but isn't exactly the plug I would recommend. Now the engine exploded. Is it due to that plug or not? How would you want to determine that? It's one of those "It works out in 9 out of 10 cases, in the 10th, though, you're dead" things.
We need a solution, but it's not going to be easy.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday June 27 2022, @01:40AM
In general, if the engine has been modified, or repaired with shoddy parts then you could void the warranty when it explodes. In the specific example you give, I'd argue that if all the customer did was use a different brand spark plug then you'd probably still be on the hook though -- if your engine explodes due to an off brand spark plug, it'll explode using a defective OEM brand spark plug too, and it shouldn't do that. I'd argue that's on you; in any case there ARE going to be edge cases.
And what if the customer comes in because the transmission isn't working, or his GPS navigation is acting up... you going to blame that on his off brand plugs too, and automatically deny warranty? That's not right.
I agree there's some edge cases, but litigating the edge cases as they happen is a better solution than allowing that.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday June 27 2022, @01:21AM (4 children)
No. Nobody is saying that. If it fell apart because they fixed it with crappy parts, you still aren't responsible.
But it has to fall apart *due* to the previous crap repair. You can't avoid being responsible for the repair simply because someone else serviced it.
If the wheel falls off after the owner rotates the tires, that's still on the owner. If the tire fails because an inferior tire was installed, and the car is wrecked. That's all still on the owner too. But if the water pump dies ... the fact that the owner rotated his own tires and then installed an inferior tire is not the cause, and the manufacturer can't void the warranty and refuse to replace the water pump. -- which is what was happening.
The manufacturer isn't responsible for shoddy service/repairs, or even the knock on effects of shoddy service/repairs. But they do have to show the the problem is the result of the shoddy service/repairs, they can't just automatically void warranty outright simply because someone else serviced the product.
Surely you would agree with that?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 27 2022, @05:46PM (3 children)
Wait, I need to rotate the tires on my Harley?!
(Score: 1) by UncleBen on Monday June 27 2022, @07:29PM (1 child)
Yes, one must rotate the tires by RIDING one's Harley.
(Moto joke: H-D's are more for polishing than riding. An old boss used to clean his with q-tips.)
(Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Monday June 27 2022, @08:23PM
You've also got to rev the engine in your driveway fairly regularly, or your neighbors might forget that you are a Harley guy.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday June 27 2022, @10:48PM
No. the wear you get in the two miles from your garage to the foux biker bar will not add up to anything that matters. Your gog will still be able to make the Sons of Dentistry rally.