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posted by takyon on Wednesday January 27 2016, @11:00AM   Printer-friendly
from the i-fought-the-law-and... dept.

Previously: Militia Occupies Federal Building in Oregon After Rancher Arson Convictions

Russia Today reports:

Ammon Bundy, the leader of the armed group occupying a federal wildlife refuge near Burns, Oregon, and four others have been arrested by law enforcement amid gunfire, according to the FBI.

At 4:25 pm on [January 26], the FBI and Oregon State Police "began an enforcement action to bring into custody a number of individuals associated with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. During that arrest, there were shots fired", the Bureau said in a statement.

The FBI said one person who was "a subject of a federal probable cause arrest is deceased". He said they are not releasing any information on the person "pending identification by the medical examiner's office".

One person suffered non-life threatening injuries and was taken to a local hospital for treatment. He was arrested and is in custody.

The arrested individuals include:
- Ammon Edward Bundy, age 40, of Emmett, Idaho.
- Ryan C. Bundy, age 43, of Bunkerville, Nevada.
- Brian Cavalier, age 44, of Bunkerville, Nevada.
- Shawna Cox, age 59, of Kanab, Utah.
- Ryan Waylen Payne, age 32, of Anaconda, Montana.

CNN, NYT, Washington Post, BBC, OregonLive.


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday January 27 2016, @01:11PM

    by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @01:11PM (#295253)

    I am saddened that people got injured and killed.

    I have mixed feelings about that: On the one hand, yeah, there's a guy dead, and that sucks because it would be much better to put him on trial and in jail. On the other hand, this was a guy who wanted to go down fighting the US government and by all appearances did exactly that.

    What's also probably true is that Mr Finicum will become the latest name spoken with reverence in the right-wing whackaloon militia community, just like Carl Drega and Timothy McVeigh. That's the trouble with would-be martyrs: There are always some idiots who will support them no matter how evil they were. There are libertarian types that are already claiming (without a shred of evidence) that the cops just started shooting without warning or justification.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by ikanreed on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:04PM

    by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:04PM (#295321) Journal

    It's entirely possible that that's true. Guns complicate any tense situation, and you don't have to pull a trigger or even point one for someone to be scared for their life. An FBI agent or cop could have shot this poor guy for totally spurious or questionable reasons. That's straight-up possible.

    But I'll say this. Someone at the FBI absolutely told these agents and cops something very much like "You are walking into a media shitstorm, if you discharge your weapon, you'd better have a damn good reason."

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by Tork on Wednesday January 27 2016, @06:04PM

      by Tork (3914) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @06:04PM (#295440)

      Guns complicate any tense situation, and you don't have to pull a trigger or even point one for someone to be scared for their life.

      There's an old cliche: "An armed society is a polite society." It should be changed to: "An armed society is a fearful society."

      --
      Slashdolt Logic: "24 year old jokes about sharks and lasers are +5, Funny." 💩
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:19PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:19PM (#295477)

        Gun nuts always like to say that guns help protect people from the bad guys.

        The problem is very very many normal people often are bad guys at least once in their lives. So stuff is more likely to be worse if they happen to have a gun at that time.

        If you don't believe me just go look at the drivers on the road. Now imagine all those people doing stupid stuff do stupid stuff with guns.

        Another example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/26/man-who-feared-mass-shootings-brings-gun-to-movie-theater-accidentally-shoots-woman/ [washingtonpost.com]
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/12121056/Dane-Gallion-Man-who-feared-mass-shooting-accidentally-shoots-woman-in-cinema.html [telegraph.co.uk]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 28 2016, @09:29AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 28 2016, @09:29AM (#295854)

          Gun nuts always like to say that guns help protect people from the bad guys.

          The problem is very very many normal people often are bad guys at least once in their lives.

          This applies equally to your police as it does to the average joe on the street. I don't think anybody should have guns but as long as police are driving around in tanks and carrying fully automatic weapons (for use against their own citizenry!) I think every last citizen should carry a gun.

          You guys have just gotten so used to being your government's bitches, you think it is normal. America, home of the brave, you guys killed them all off and placed them in reservations to make room for the fed.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by J053 on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:25PM

        by J053 (3532) <dakineNO@SPAMshangri-la.cx> on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:25PM (#295484) Homepage

        There's an old cliche: "An armed society is a polite society."

        That's a quote from a fictional character in Heinlein's If This Goes On, and even Heinlein wasn't saying that the society depicted therein was a good one. I wish people would quit saying this.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:25AM

          by HiThere (866) on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:25AM (#295697) Journal

          FWIW, I believe that Heinlein first used that line in "Beyond This Horizon", and he *was* saying that that society was a good society.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 2) by naubol on Thursday January 28 2016, @04:15AM

            by naubol (1918) on Thursday January 28 2016, @04:15AM (#295765)

            If I recall correctly, the story was commissioned for Campbell, who was enamored of an armed society. This post corroborates that line of thinking... http://torforgeblog.com/2010/07/12/whats-your-favorite-heinlein-novel-david-brin/ [torforgeblog.com]

            Whether or not he believed the idea at the time of writing, in the novel Beyond This Horizon someone almost gets shot over what is a very minor faux pas. Heinlein changed his views on politics many times in his life and also wrote politically conflicting works. I have often believed that he experimented with ideas and his 'voice' did not always represent convicted views.

            Quoting Heinlein is a political rorschach.

          • (Score: 2) by J053 on Thursday January 28 2016, @06:16PM

            by J053 (3532) <dakineNO@SPAMshangri-la.cx> on Thursday January 28 2016, @06:16PM (#296037) Homepage
            You're right - it was Beyond This Horizon - I should have known that, as I re-read it not that long ago. I still didn't get the impression Heinlein was advocating for that kind of a society rather than just using it as a background for the main story.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:15PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:15PM (#295468)
      If only cops were so careful with black lives. Tasing black guy who had a stroke, shooting some guy who had a knife (but was just mostly trying to walk away). Driving up next to a kid with a toy gun and shooting him within seconds. etc etc.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:05PM

    by curunir_wolf (4772) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:05PM (#295322)

    the latest name spoken with reverence in the right-wing whackaloon militia community, just like Carl Drega and Timothy McVeigh.

    How disingenuous. I'm sure you're using hyperbole here, as those two were simply killers, and I've never heard of them being celebrated or revered by anyone. Sure, McVeigh was set up by government agents, but it was his plan to blow up a federal building and he did it - no group or movement that I've ever heard of supports or reveres him. Seriously, this is just bigotry on your part.

    There are libertarian types that are already claiming (without a shred of evidence) that the cops just started shooting without warning or justification.

    And since the government is so trustworthy, of course that can't be true. Regardless of the fact that they aren't denying it, not releasing any details of the confrontation, and are actively involved in convincing the media not to publish any information about the incident except from "official" sources. The history of Federal agents during this incident, and, indeed, their treatment of ranchers (specifically the BLM) ever since the Sagebrush Rebellion in the 1970s and 1980s.

    I mean, it's not like the feds have ever laid siege to a private compound with tanks and armored vehicles, set fire to it, and killed most of the women and children that ... oh, wait.

    --
    I am a crackpot
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:25PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @03:25PM (#295341)

      I've never heard of them being celebrated or revered by anyone.

      Here's someone who has written substantially about Carl Drega as a hero [amazon.com]. And an article suggesting the same thing about Tim McVeigh [attackthesystem.com].

      Yes, they're a tiny minority. The vast majority of libertarians and conservatives don't think like these guys, just like the vast majority of liberals in the 1970's didn't support the idea that black people should shoot cops at any opportunity. But don't think for a minute that there isn't a subculture that supports these kinds of people.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:06PM

        by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:06PM (#295465) Journal

        What's also probably true is that Mr Finicum will become the latest name spoken with reverence in the right-wing whackaloon militia community
         
        It's already happening! Google "Finnicum patriot."
         
        Various hits:
        "LaVoy Finicum a Patriot to the Constitution - Murdered by..." (the Feds I assume, no way in hell I'm actually clicking any of these links!)
         
        "LaVoy Finicum: ARIZONA PATRIOT COWBOY DESCRIBES ..."
         
        "The First Martyr of the Patriot Movement in 2016, the 2nd ..."
         
        Hard to argue hyperbole when actual examples are staring you in the face.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:57PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @07:57PM (#295516)

          Again, is there any evidence this is in any way anything other than an extreme minority? Whatever your argument is, it's like saying all Muslims support terrorist acts because is Muslim. Even amongst the libertarian communities, these guys have been regarded as nutbags.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by curunir_wolf on Thursday January 28 2016, @12:20AM

            by curunir_wolf (4772) on Thursday January 28 2016, @12:20AM (#295675)

            Even amongst the libertarian communities, these guys have been regarded as nutbags.

            Quite true, and yet, look through this thread and you see lots of people describing him as a "terrorist". That's interesting, because I doubt any one of these people would say the same about Eric Holder, and yet, he did the exact same thing [wikipedia.org] as these guys.

            Finnigan did not kill anyone, did not threaten or assault anyone, never created bombs or threatened to blow anything up. And yet, participating in a peaceful occupation of a federal building (abandoned at the time) has everyone parroting the party line of the bad actors in the Federal government that they were protesting.

            Yes, they were armed. They are western ranchers. They are pretty much always "armed" - it's just a fact of daily life for them. They are protecting their herds from predators, after all.

            Why did the federal agents kill him? It turns out, straight from the agents themselves, it was for "failure to follow orders." During a traffic stop. If this happened to a black man in an urban neighborhood everyone would be up in arms (as they should). But this guy doesn't even get the benefit of the doubt.

            It would be amusing how wrapped up so many people are with the propaganda put out by the Federal government to protect their power. It would be, if it wasn't so tragic.

            --
            I am a crackpot
            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:28AM

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:28AM (#295699) Journal

              It would be amusing how wrapped up so many people are with the propaganda put out by the Federal government to protect their power. It would be, if it wasn't so tragic.

              Anymore it seems attributable to doublethink. The evidence of government crimes is overwhelming, but instead of doing something about that many people prefer to twist themselves into knots to avoid having to take a stand. Moral cowardice at its finest.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday January 28 2016, @05:57AM

              by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday January 28 2016, @05:57AM (#295795) Journal

              The shooting was captured on camera by the SWAT team. FBI and Oregon police officials are discussing possibly releasing the video, in part to counter claims by supporters that Finicum was gunned down while trying to surrender.

              http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-siege-traffic-stop/ [cnn.com]

              Obviously, if they don't release the video, the shooting was dirty. If they do release it, it will speak for itself.

              I'm sort of surprised to see how the word "terrorist" is being misused even here, though not surprised that so many in other outlets use that term. Apparently, 15 years of brainwashing by the Feds and it's lapdog press has a large portion of the population ready to call anybody a terrorist -- even if they don't kill anybody. That's scary because once a person is labeled a terrorist that person is in a Constitution-free zone, and the Feds are hardly a paragon of virtue and morality.

              I'm also surprised at how much faith people put in the Feds for honesty. If DC was a puppet, it would have a nose stretching from the Atlantic seaboard to Guam. My take is simple, the video will speak for itself and if it is never publicly shown, I presume its contents would dispute the government's claims.

      • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Thursday January 28 2016, @12:23AM

        by curunir_wolf (4772) on Thursday January 28 2016, @12:23AM (#295677)

        Thanks. The article was interesting reading, but I'm not really interested in reading the book (are you? Or do like to keep away from reading material that challenges your world view?).

        In any case, I don't think either of those links proves your point. Just the opposite, really.

        --
        I am a crackpot
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:24AM

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday January 28 2016, @01:24AM (#295696) Journal

      Or Ruby Ridge. Yeah, a white supremacist, which is a despicable philosophy, but he's entitled to it if he's not harming anyone else. And living peacefully with your wife and kids on top of a remote mountain in Idaho is pretty much the definition of "not harming anyone else." But, hey, why not launch an armed assault on said cabin and shoot the wife and kids dead?

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 28 2016, @07:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 28 2016, @07:41PM (#296075)

      or shoot a mother in the head while she holds her baby(lon horiuchi). or spray an 8 year old in the back with an mp5(i don't know which fbi pos did that). ruby ridge idaho

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by shortscreen on Wednesday January 27 2016, @06:54PM

    by shortscreen (2252) on Wednesday January 27 2016, @06:54PM (#295458) Journal

    That's the trouble with governments: There are always some idiots who will support them no matter how evil they were. There are liberal types that are already repeating (without a shred of evidence) whatever the corporate media tell them to.

    FTFY.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @10:51PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 27 2016, @10:51PM (#295627)

      Ohhhhhh, I see what you did there. That's really funny. He was saying one thing and you changed a word and made it say another REALLY INSIGHTFUL thing!

      You are a clever, clever guy.

      Really.