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posted by martyb on Thursday November 24 2016, @11:24AM   Printer-friendly
from the disproportionate-force dept.

Snopes reports

On 20 November 2016, the Dakota Access pipeline protests reached new proportions when an ongoing demonstration turned into a violent [assault on protesters by] law enforcement officials.

Pipeline protesters say 21-year-old Sophia Wilansky was critically injured when she was struck with a concussion grenade thrown by Morton County sheriff's deputies while she was handing out water. As a result, she has been hospitalized and now faces the prospect of having her left arm amputated.

On 21 November 2016, Wilansky's father, Wayne Wilansky, [...] told reporters that she may need as many as 20 surgeries and that, aside from her arm injury, Sophia had welts all over her body from being shot by rubber[-coated steel] bullets, and that it took hours for an ambulance to reach her because of roadblocks.

Heavy.com continues

A statement from The Standing Rock Medic & Healing Council stated:
"Sophia was heading to bring water to the unarmed people who were being attacked for several hours by Morton County Sheriff forces. The Morton County Sheriff's Department has stated that she was injured by a purported propane explosion that the Sheriff's Department claimed the unarmed people created.

"These statements are refuted by Sophia's testimony, by several eye-witnesses who watched police intentionally throw concussion grenades at unarmed people, by the lack of charring of flesh at the wound site, and by the grenade pieces that have been removed from her arm in surgery and will be saved for legal proceedings."

Snopes also notes:

A total of 26 protesters were hospitalized and more than 300 were injured.

Previously:
Water Cannons Used in Sub-Freezing Temperatures at Standing Rock


Original Submission

 
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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 24 2016, @11:51AM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 24 2016, @11:51AM (#432353) Homepage Journal

    A flash-bang is a grenade. Grenades come in differenty types, for different purposes, but all are recognized to be deadly. Aboard ship, all grenades were kept in the small arms locker, all of them had the same security and checkout procedures. A flash-bang wasn't handled any differently than the fragmentation grenade that everyone recognizes from the movies. When a grenade is used in action, it is intended to cause casualties.

    The original submission yesterday made no mention of the usage of grenades, and I had zero sympathy for some demostrators who got hosed down with water, and gassed with tear gas. Those things are not deadly - even in the freezing temperatures described. (NOTE: I spent a winter aboard ship on the arctic circle. Hypothermia can be deadly, but people who understand hypothermia aren't especially threatened by it.)

    But, I've complained for a long time about the police forces use of military equipment. When they start tossing explosives around, nothing good can come from that. If the cops want to use grenades, then the demonstrators should have free access to grenades. Police forces have no legitimate use for weapons that the general population can't have. None.

    If things get so desparate that grenades, tanks, etc are needed to quell unrest, the National Guard is available. That is their purpose, after all.

    Of course, if things come to that, it is a good indication that the government is due for replacement.

    --
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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 24 2016, @12:47PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 24 2016, @12:47PM (#432362)

    The original submission yesterday made no mention of the usage of grenades

    Actually,

    Authorities used rubber-coated steel bullets, concussion grenades, tear gas, and water cannons against unarmed protesters near the Dakota Access oil pipeline in 26°F (-3°C) temperatures over the weekend.

    When a grenade is used in action, it is intended to cause casualties.
    [...]
    When they start tossing explosives around, nothing good can come from that.

    Absolutely. This whole thing was criminal assault on unarmed people exercising their 1st Amendment rights.

    aboard ship [...] Hypothermia

    One assumes there was an "indoors" on that vessel where you could duck back in.
    If you went out to the exterior of the ship when there was a chance of getting wet, I'll bet you went dressed for that.

    The folks at Standing Rock are living rough (camping).
    They didn't expect to be soaked through in freezing weather by a bunch of jerks.
    To deal with their soaked clothing, they would first have to evade the bully boys with the weapons then get back to where there are warm dry clothes and change into those, likely in a tent.
    The combined distance, time, and thoroughness of the soaking seem like more way than they could have foreseen, unlike someone doing a daily routine where all the variables are known ahead of time.

    It would be interesting to see how you held up under the exact same conditions.

    -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:32PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:32PM (#432376) Homepage Journal

      "all the variables are known ahead of time."

      The sea. You can't know ahead of time. You can only guess, and be vigilant for changing conditions.

      --
      Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 25 2016, @08:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 25 2016, @08:54AM (#432792)

        "Today the sea was more wet than expected, so we had to go back to port to replace our regular waterproof gear with extra waterproof gear".

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 25 2016, @12:08PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday November 25 2016, @12:08PM (#432831) Homepage Journal

          Small minds are easily amused, right? When you have a couple year's sea duty behind you, come back and tell me about the sea.

          --
          Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
  • (Score: 2) by Geezer on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:07PM

    by Geezer (511) on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:07PM (#432368)

    Agreed, bearing in mind that the National Guard is not a police agency per seand generally not well-trained (states and units may vary) in non-lethal crowd control. Anyone remember Kent State?

    • (Score: 1) by Geezer on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:10PM

      by Geezer (511) on Thursday November 24 2016, @01:10PM (#432369)

      Oops, replied wrong post. Meant to agree with Runaway1956. My bad.

  • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:24PM

    by sjames (2882) on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:24PM (#432468) Journal

    You were on a ship in the arctic. You were expecting cold and plenty of water. You understood hypothermia.

    The protesters certainly should have been expecting cold, but did they expect water? How much understanding of hypothermia do you suppose they had?

    But yes, cops shouldn't be using grenades. Even from the practical side (neverminding civil society) they have proven insufficiently disciplined and trained to use grenades of any kind. Like 'blanks', flash bangs and concussion grenades can (and have) maim or kill when not used responsibly.

    And of course, once police get to the point of preventing ambulance service to protesters, they have gone all the way over the line. There's no shades of grey left.

    • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday November 24 2016, @06:21PM

      by mhajicek (51) on Thursday November 24 2016, @06:21PM (#432491)

      Is it or is it not legally assault to spray someone with a firehose? If it isn't, than can people do it to cops without repercussion? What would an officer do if you shot him with a rubber coated steel slug?

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by chris.alex.thomas on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:35PM

    by chris.alex.thomas (2331) on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:35PM (#432475)

    The fact that you are ok with spraying people with water and potentially injuring them, says more about you, than it does about the protestors.

    Even if you don't care, then I would never actively wish harm on people, I would say that they should not do that, but that you are ok with it.....what the fuck is wrong with you? Are you some kind of psychopath?

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:38PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 24 2016, @05:38PM (#432479) Homepage Journal

      Sometimes, you've got to put on your big boy pants, and try to act like an adult. When you decide to be a protestor, it's time. Going up against an armed police force is your decision - the cops didn't come to these people's homes, and drag them out to that bridge.

      --
      Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Thursday November 24 2016, @06:29PM

        by mhajicek (51) on Thursday November 24 2016, @06:29PM (#432496)

        Sometimes the government should put on it's big boy pants and honor the treaties they signed. Sometimes the police should put on their big boy pants and stop throwing tantrums.

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 24 2016, @07:03PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 24 2016, @07:03PM (#432515) Homepage Journal

          All of that may very well be. But, there's a cop out on the corner. Big burly guy, wearing riot gear, carrying a club, a gun, mace, a taser. If I go out and pick a fight with him, are you going to feel sorry for me when he breaks half the bones in my body, then shoots me? FFS - it's very damned difficult for me to work up a lot of sympathy for protestors who get hurt. The cops didn't drag the protestors to the protest. Rather, government dragged the cops out because the protestors were there.

          Anyone who challenges an armed man, and doesn't expect to get shot is just plain stupid.

          Now - do you want these protestors rememberd for bravery, or for stupidity? Stupid people hurt themselves all the time, you know, but we don't honor them for it. We do honor brave people.

          --
          Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by https on Thursday November 24 2016, @07:50PM

            by https (5248) on Thursday November 24 2016, @07:50PM (#432539) Journal

            If you think the protestors picked a fight with riot police, your understanding of the situation is wrong. Next time, don't call until you're ready to play.

            --
            Offended and laughing about it.
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by mhajicek on Thursday November 24 2016, @08:36PM

            by mhajicek (51) on Thursday November 24 2016, @08:36PM (#432570)

            Yes, the Indians should have stayed away from the native police reservation.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
          • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Tuesday November 29 2016, @11:18PM

            by urza9814 (3954) on Tuesday November 29 2016, @11:18PM (#434726) Journal

            If I go out and pick a fight with him, are you going to feel sorry for me when he breaks half the bones in my body, then shoots me?

            The cops didn't drag the protestors to the protest. Rather, government dragged the cops out because the protestors were there.

            So explain how they're "picking a fight" with someone who wasn't even there when they set up. They weren't trying to battle with the cops, they weren't trying to get maced, they were trying to build a damn tent on their own goddamn land. And the government dragged the police out to attack them in response, as you've accurately described. The protesters have no desire to go up against the cops, the cops are the only ones initiating the interaction and are therefore the only ones responsible for whatever force they are using.

            It's not at all like going out and picking a fight with the cop on the street; a better analogy would be sitting in your living room when a bunch of cops show up with a bulldozer and an armory and a SWAT team breaks through your front door.

      • (Score: 2) by tfried on Thursday November 24 2016, @08:57PM

        by tfried (5534) on Thursday November 24 2016, @08:57PM (#432588)

        And yet you expressed agreement with the prostestor's cause (in the other story), so what exactly do you want them to do? Hush up and stay at home? Go out to be bullied by the cops, and hush up about police misbehavior? Oh, now I know, they should'a simply voted Trump, that would'a fixed things.

        Seriously, Runaway, where are you defending those folks first amendment rights? Does that apply to online online comments and armchair rebels, only?

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday November 24 2016, @10:06PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday November 24 2016, @10:06PM (#432628) Homepage Journal

          I expect protestors - whether I agree with their stated aims or not - to expect backlash. You know - part of that "personal responsibility" thing. I may agree with any number of protest's goals, but don't agree that a protest is necessary. Or, I don't think the risks associated with the protest are justified. Or, I think it's just to damned cold to go out and stand around a burn barrel, trying not to freeze my ass off.

          First amendment right don't include the "right" to occupy private property - you do realize that? Public property, maybe, within limits, but not private property. Trespass isn't speech. Vandalizing property isn't protected with first amendment rights, either. Remember when Jill Stein was arrested for spray painting a bulldozer blade? That was a frivolity - but she was arrested.

          Support. I'm not real sure that I support these particular protestors or not. I've read different versions of the story now. Bombs and grenades? Let's see the videos. The OTHER SIDE says that the protestors have made improvised explosive devices? Again, no videos.

          That grenade? I'm beginning to question whether any doctor pulled grenade shrapnel out of that woman's arm. There are several versions of those concussion grenades out there. Have you noted that some of them are REUSABLE? There is no shrapnel from them. The explosion does no take place within the body of the grenade. The explosive charge is propelled out of the body of the grenade, where it mixes with the atmosphere, then explodes. Kinda like MOAB, it's a fuel/air explosion. Unlike the Mother of All Bombs, the explosion leaves an undamaged, unscorched casing behind.

          I support the stated goal of this demonstration - but I don't necessarily support their methods. And, if they are, in fact, trying to make IED's in support of their activities - well - it sucks to be them. If that is shown to be true, then I can't support them at all.

          --
          Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
          • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Tuesday November 29 2016, @11:26PM

            by urza9814 (3954) on Tuesday November 29 2016, @11:26PM (#434731) Journal

            First amendment right don't include the "right" to occupy private property - you do realize that? Public property, maybe, within limits, but not private property. Trespass isn't speech.

            But they're on *their own property*. The land, by treaty, is not owned by the United States government. It's a reservation. The police and the oil company are the ones who are trespassing.

            That grenade? I'm beginning to question whether any doctor pulled grenade shrapnel out of that woman's arm. There are several versions of those concussion grenades out there. Have you noted that some of them are REUSABLE? There is no shrapnel from them. The explosion does no take place within the body of the grenade. The explosive charge is propelled out of the body of the grenade, where it mixes with the atmosphere, then explodes. Kinda like MOAB, it's a fuel/air explosion. Unlike the Mother of All Bombs, the explosion leaves an undamaged, unscorched casing behind.

            And if the grenade is tampered with? For example I've seen a few images of such grenades that were apparently thrown while sealed with heavy black tape. I dunno if tape is enough to turn it into a frag grenade, but it seems plausible. Hopefully the fragments they recovered will explain exactly how that happened. The evidence seems pretty clear that it was an explosion, and with no burning it seems unlikely to be anything the protestors could have put together. But we know the police were definitely using weapons with that exact characteristic. The courts will decide, but I can't come up with any alternative explanation, and you don't seem to have any either...

      • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 25 2016, @04:21AM

        by Reziac (2489) on Friday November 25 2016, @04:21AM (#432740) Homepage

        And before people get too sympathetic:

        http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/index.html [cnn.com]
        =========
        Fool Bear has had it with the protesters. He says that more than two years ago, when members of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe could have attended hearings to make their concerns known, they didn't care. Now, suddenly, the crowds are out of control, and he fears it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. Now, suddenly, the crowds are out of control, and he fears it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt.

        Go down to the camps, he says, and you won't see many Standing Rock Sioux. "It irks me. People are here from all over the world," he says. "If they could come from other planets, I think they would."
        ==========

        In short, this "protest" is totally astroturf, with lots of useful idiots, and a few bored locals on welfare with nothing better to do.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 25 2016, @05:54AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday November 25 2016, @05:54AM (#432759) Homepage Journal

          Good find. The girl who was injured - her name sounds Polski to me. The Poles came to this country a little late, in comparison to some other nationalities. Sure, there was some intermarriage between Poles and Indians - but MOST Native Americans with European sounding names are descended from English, Scottish, Irish, French. So, naturally, I wondered if that girl was really Indian.

          Mehhh.

          The talk radio show I listen to is full of tales of demonstrators who are PAID by Soros funded organizations to come out and demonstrate. A demonstration in Houston that they covered, almost all the demonstrators admitted that they were being paid $15/hr by some org to be there. Three busloads of outsiders were brought in for the event - and only a handful of locals who weren't being paid.

          Wonder if there's a money trail to be found for this demonstration?

          --
          Your private safe room in the back of your mind? Trump pooped in it.
          • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 25 2016, @08:11AM

            by Reziac (2489) on Friday November 25 2016, @08:11AM (#432782) Homepage

            Good point on Indian surnames. And some eastern Europeans with Mongol ancestry can pass for Amerind.

            A while back I did find an article about people being bussed into this ND 'event' by some Soros-backed activist outfit, but today couldn't relocate it.

            "Wonder if there's a money trail to be found for this demonstration?"

            Good luck:
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1237 [discoverthenetworks.org]
            Most of these in turn fund dozens of activist groups, some of which in turn... you get the idea.

            Would be interesting to learn who pays her hospital bill...

            While I'm digging around, haven't looked at these yet, but anyway:
            http://linkis.com/fenixx.org/George_Soros_Enemy_o.html [linkis.com]

            I assume you've seen Black Pigeon's video on the subject? numerous links on the docs page.

            From what I've seen so far, the usual conspiracy theories about Soros-funded mayhem grossly underestimate the scope of the problem. Further, my own theory is that he's funneling Saudi money... note who remained essentially untouched by all this "Arab spring" and migrant nonsense...

  • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday November 24 2016, @09:58PM

    by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday November 24 2016, @09:58PM (#432617) Homepage

    Flashbangs (stun grenades) are considerably safer than sting grenades precisely because they generally don't cause physical injury (barring coming into direct contact with the grenade, which will cause burns, or triggering epilepsy). The summary mentions concussion grenades, but I'm assuming that's a typo caused by ignorance. Concussion grenades are fully intended to be lethal.

    I'm not even sure why sting grenades exist. They're like a watered down version of frag grenades that don't reliably kill, say maybe 40% of the time.

    Of course, none of these, including stun grenades, are perfectly safe; they're called less-lethal for a reason (explicitly not non-lethal).

    In theory I'm okay with the police maintaining arms in the case of emergency (for example, zombies). In practice however...

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    • (Score: 2) by Bogsnoticus on Friday November 25 2016, @07:09AM

      by Bogsnoticus (3982) on Friday November 25 2016, @07:09AM (#432774)

      There is a logical, if nasty, reason why sting grenades exist.
      You kill a man with a grenade, you lessen the attacking force by 1. You wound a man with a grenade, you lessen the attacking force by the number of wounded, AND the number of unwounded who now have to treat and stabilise the wounded.

      --
      Genius by birth. Evil by choice.