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Health researchers have published an editorial examining research related to the use of sex robots:
Science fiction aside, advanced sex robots are currently heating up the market, with several companies now offering more and more life-like artificial partners, mostly ones mimicking women. Skeptics fear the desirable droids could escalate misogyny and violence against women, ignite deviant urges in pedophiles, or further isolate the sexually frustrated. Sexbot makers, on the other hand, have been pumping their health claims into advertisements, including that the amorous androids could reduce the spread of sexually transmitted disease, aid in sex therapies, and curb deviant desires in pedophiles and other sex offenders.
So far, those claims are "rather specious," according to health researchers Chantal Cox-George of St George's University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust in London and Susan Bewley of King's College London. In an editorial [DOI: 10.11336/bmjsrh-2017-200012] [DX] published Monday in BMJ Sexual & Reproductive Health, the pair highlight that there are virtually no studies that help bang out the validity of the many health arguments surging around sexbots—arguments both for and against them.
That data dry-spell doesn't let doctors off the hook, though, Cox-George and Bewley write. They call for researchers to get busy setting up studies that will nail the answers. In the meantime, "an absence of evidence does not excuse the medical profession from discussing and debating the issues, as there will inevitably be consequences for physical, mental and social well-being."
Sex technology is already an estimated $30 billion industry, they note. At least four companies are now making adult female sexbots, costing $5,000 to $50,000, and at least one is making "pedobots." The mannequins come with variable ages, features, and even programmable personalities, along with customizable oral, vaginal, and anal openings. Male sexbots are said to be in the works.
An Australian forensic criminologist goes further, speculating that "pedobots" may be illegal down under (archive):
Sexbots, and that includes pedobots, have been developed to allow users to play out sexual fantasies. In the child sexual abuse cases I have worked on, you see an escalation in activity in some cases—from an offender sourcing online child sexual abuse material, to actively seeking a physical interaction with a child when the online material does not bring the same sexual gratification. Pedobots could easily fit into this continuum of escalation.
It's also worth highlighting that Australia's legal definition of child pornography (material that describes or depicts a person under 16 years of age, or who appears to be less than 16, in a manner that would offend a reasonable adult) does not capture all images or representations that someone with an interest in children may find sexually arousing. With no evidence to the contrary, my experience tells me that the sexualization of children—be that in cartoons, songs, robots, or whatever form—will increase the desires of some who find children attractive, and put more children at risk, not less.
[...] It remains debatable whether pedobots would fall under the category of child pornography. As the law stands, child pornography can be created without directly involving a real person—child sexual abuse material can include images, text, and three-dimensional objects. This would appear to include pedobots. However, the notion of a life-like child robot produced for the sexual gratification of adults, I would argue, would offend most reasonable adults.
Should a harmless activity (fooling around with a sex robot) be banned for its potential to cause "escalation"? Should "pedobot" buyers get added to a watchlist?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:11PM (37 children)
Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:13PM (36 children)
We need to outlaw these before we're overrun by incels. Incels should be taken out back and shot before they can have children.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by takyon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:38PM (19 children)
Mass media have been running articles and editorials about banning sex bots (see TFA or other comment) for at least a couple of years now, but I don't think many have stopped to consider what it would mean to incel communities if harmless sex robots were banned. Aside: "using a sex robot encourages rape/pedophilia/misogyny" is a stupid argument for and by normies. You could use similar arguments to ban encryption, cryptocurrency, safe recreational drugs, etc.
https://campaignagainstsexrobots.org [campaignagainstsexrobots.org]
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/04/27/sex-robots-epitomize-patriarchy-offer-men-solution-threat-female-independence/ [feministcurrent.com]
My guess is that it would really accelerate discontent and cause a wave of mass murders.
Nobody needs a sex robot to get off, but it's just funny that the incels would be denied real sex (whether or not it is truly "involuntary" is debatable, but they believe it is if they identify that way) and then on top of that be denied sex with a sufficiently advanced doll. You can't spend your slave wages (obviously, these people aren't successful "Chads" [harvard.edu]) on a moving doll, because it could make you more of a gross meanie to real people!
The optics of that are so bad. They will feel like they are under siege.
Aside from all that, it would also be funny to see underground smuggling of robot parts, which could happen if either sex bots or "pedobots" are banned.
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(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:58PM (2 children)
That's why we need to kill them first. Additionally, without sex robots, they might start relationships with incel women that could lead to incel children, and then we'd be overrun by incel womb warfare! Or with sex robots, maybe they won't be satisfied and that's what will cause them to start marrying each other and having children! We can't allow incels to breed!
I say let's get Dolores Abernathy on the case. Kill all incel men, women, and children!
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:21PM (1 child)
You are such a stupid moron that it's hard to comprehend.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:33PM
He's trolling, not dumb (or, well, he *is* dumb, but in this case he's dumb because he thinks this is funny...).
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Touché) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:45PM (13 children)
Amusing. Using their logic, dildos should be banned too. In fact, I am willing to bet the same people that want to ban sex robots are probably the same people that think dildos make men redundant and somehow free women from the patriarchy.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 5, Funny) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:26PM
Dildos free women from men (somehow).
Sex dolls free men from women (to some limited extent).
To get back to the Westworld parallel, what are we gonna do when dildos and sex dolls free each other from creepy humans ? We'd have to find a human to have good sex with ? That's just insane !
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @08:01PM (1 child)
I'm guessing the people hating sexbots would in fact like to ban both dildos and fleshlights, because they believe sexual activity for fun is evil.
And the fact is, their "escalation" model seems to be based on the idea that there's no such thing as a sexually satisfied person, and it's only laws, social norms, and an inability to get partners that prevents us all from being completely deviant perverts. I don't buy that: There are millions of people who are banging one or more willing adults who don't start developing an interest in kinkier stuff.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday June 08 2018, @12:04AM
My favorite part is the fallacy, expressed in the Guardian article linked way below, that sex robots lead to normalization of dangerous behavior with real people (the article, written by a woman, says that all dolls are bought by men, and she implies that men will lose the habit of being refused consent).
I'm pretty sure that, for the first time in civilization, men, now guaranteed to get laid at will, and therefore likely satiated, will potentially be a lot more civilized towards women they interact with.
(Score: 0) by fakefuck39 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @09:13PM (9 children)
Who is this "they" - the comment to which you replied talks about many groups of people. What is being talked about is sex robots that resemble little children, and this does not exclude any sex. This is not about, nor does it relate to a dildo in any way - it would however have something to do with a lifelike squeezable naked 5 year old boy doll that has a dildo attached, being sold with "have sex with a lifelike little boy doll." ads. Or girl - same thing really for a 5 year old, just flip her over and it's a boy.
Irrelevant of what side of the issue I am on, no - the "they" who want to ban these sex dolls are not the "they" that support unattached dildos. Life-like underage stuff has been the topic of law for a long time, with places like the UK actually putting people in prison for underage rape cartoons and comic books. That doesn't mean ugly people with bad teeth think dildos make men redundant. The magic made-up connection here could only be dreamed up by some idiot who has no actual point to make but still wants to say something - for attention. By some idiot like you.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @09:37PM (7 children)
Well, places like the UK are insanely authoritarian, so this is no surprise. They don't care one bit about freedom of speech or freedom in general.
Of course sex robots with the appearance of children shouldn't be banned, since they're not real children. Saying that this will somehow "cause" the people that have them to go out and rape real children is as insane as Jack Thompson arguing that violent video games make people violent. They have zero quality evidence to support anything they say, and they don't believe in personal responsibility.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @11:45PM (6 children)
> Of course sex robots with the appearance of children shouldn't be banned, since they're not real children.
> (...)
> They have zero quality evidence to support anything they say, and they don't believe in personal responsibility.
Not banned, but maybe registered?
"look, we'd rather you take your impulses out on a kid-shaped piece of silicone and rubber, but since you are the kind of person who needs to discharge your impulses out on a kid-shaped piece of silicone and rubber, we'd like you to remember that we know that, in case you starting having issues getting your rocks off on just silicone and rubber."
Most places register guns, just in case something bad happens...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:24AM (4 children)
I don't see why being sexually attracted to something should cause you to be on some list. Just because someone is sexually attracted to a group of people does not mean that they also want to rape that group of people. A sexual attraction and a willingness to rape are two different things, because otherwise you could argue that anyone who experiences sexual attraction is a potential rapist and should therefore be on a list. It is technically true that anyone is a potential rapist in the sense that the possibility is non-zero, but no one makes a big deal out of that like they do with pedophiles. It's likely that people can't stay rational because of the 'ick factor'.
And maybe using encryption should get you on a list, since bad guys use that too. It probably already does, but the fact that it gets you on a list needs to be made more official.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:51AM (3 children)
which part of "kind of person who needs to discharge your impulses out on a kid-shaped piece of silicone and rubber" did not register with you ?
Being sexually attracted is one thing, and there are plenty of harmless ways to cope with it. When you get to the point where you have to go beyond the amazingly diverse offerings of the porn industry, and into the icky territory of realistic children sex dolls, that puts you into the "potential danger" range in my book. I said I'd rather let it happen, with a requirement that you be known by the state that you need this (and maybe the need to be prescribed by a medical professional). It's a rational deterrent in exchange for a crutch.
Encryption has plenty of very legitimate uses by everyone. Kiddie Real Dolls could be at most a treatment for people with problematic impulses. Terrible analogy.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:26AM
I was kidding when I asked if "pedobot" buyers should get added to a watchlist.
It's no crime, and there should be no list. If need be they can just build it themselves and avoid the list.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:37AM
The harmless ways tend to be banned.
Ah, I see the problem. For your information, child porn is among those things that are already banned, so no, there are no offerings of the (legal) porn industry.
Because, unlike a piece of rubber, child porn is made from real children. So, while porn reduces rape, and thus child porn would reduce child rape, but looking at it from a numbers perspective (few child rapes is better than many) is frowned upon, so we outlaw child porn as well as child rape, even though that may result in pedos thinking "why download child porn, when it's just as illegal as a real child".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @01:57AM
The part where it's not an actual kid.
Such as having sex with a doll, which isn't a real person and harms no one. Having sex with a child-like doll does not mean you intend to rape a real child. If you are unable to tell the difference between a doll and a human being, the problem lies with you.
Anyone is a potential danger. There is a non-zero chance that you are a rapist or will be, and therefore are a "potential danger". If you're going to argue that the danger is more prevalent with people who have sex with these child-like robots, then provide quality evidence of that and specifically define how much danger is too much to ignore in the name of freedom.
You can't justify putting people on government lists for being "potential dangers"; that is extremely authoritarian.
It's irrational and unjust, because it presumes that people are rapists or will be.
No, it's a good analogy. Anyone could argue that anything should be banned by saying that some bad people "abuse" it, even if the vast majority of those who do use it do not do anything bad.
In reality, though, there is zero evidence that this will somehow make non-rapists into rapists, so there are no valid objections here. You just feel that it's icky, so your authoritarian impulses are beginning to show.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @11:30AM
That would have the opposite effect.
"You need to register to get a too small piece of plastic, but you don't need to register to get access to the playground".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:56AM
Known in the free world as "molesting a child is just as bad as molesting a pencil".
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:29PM
>You could use similar arguments to ban encryption, cryptocurrency, safe recreational drugs, etc.
Not only could you - it's already been done, repeatedly, in many different countries. Never underestimate the power of trumped-up moral outrage.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:18PM
It's from the same line of thought as "teaching about condoms will encourage teenagers to have sex".
Which has resulted in "abstinence only" schools reporting the highest number of teen pregnancies.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:40PM (2 children)
Incels should be taken out back and shot before they can have children.
Sounds like we have plenty of time to get that one planned out.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:48PM
Maybe they mean that there is no need to do any harm to incels?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:55PM
You don't understand, man! The incels are everywhere! 53% of white women demonstrated they were incels by voting for Trump!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:50PM (8 children)
Do you even understand what "incel" means? I'll give you a hint: it stands for Involuntarily Celibate. So which part of celibate do you not understand? In light of your new-found enlightenment, would you now like to revisit your suggestion that they "should be taken out back and shot before they can have children"?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:01PM
AC might be implying (as a parody of certain feminist commentators) that incels are a threat because they will suddenly snap and transform into rapists, and if they otherwise manage to have offspring by any means, those offspring will be similarly antisocial due to upbringing and genetics.
That or AC is so pissed off they just flip out on these kinds of discussions.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:24PM (4 children)
Obviously it does not mean this. The way the word incel is actually used indicates that it means roughly "person I disagree with" or "person whose sex life I wish to control." Homosexual men with active sex lives are examples of incels. Male victims of sexual assault are examples of incels.
And, it could also be that men married to women are examples of incels, but that's not news to any married man!
If you want incel to mean "involuntarily celibate," then it cannot be used as just another generic slur. Its current usage is equivalent to the term beta cuck. People hurling insults like incel and beta cuck are simply using an appeal to patriarchal heteronormative chauvinism to marginalize the victims of capitalist exploitation of the working class.
(Score: 2) by Snow on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:14PM (3 children)
You are totally clueless.
Incel = Involuntarily Celibate
If you have an active sex life you are, by definition, not an incel.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:36PM (2 children)
Mmmkay... so, instead of killing them, we could just rape them?
They'll get some active sex, even if non-voluntary.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snow on Wednesday June 06 2018, @08:00PM (1 child)
Incels do have a point. Many of them don't feel like they are 'owed' anything. Many know they are 'genetic trash' and accept it.
Incels feel that the tinderization of the dating market means that any female can easily hookup with a male that is more attractive than they are. They back this up by doing 'experiments' on tinder where they make a fake profile with a 'land whale' (fatty) and then see how many matches they get (a lot).
OKCupid used to release statistics based gathered from their site. One of the blogs they posted was how women rated 80% of men below average in terms of attractiveness. The result is that basically the top 20% of men get pretty much all the attention from women. They call it the 80-20 rule. The top 20% of men get 80% of the women and the rest have to fight it out for the remaining 20%.
If all the women are able to date up, then what does that leave for men that are below average? I think it's a legitimate complaint.
While there are some Incels who want to go ER (Elliot Rogers shooting spree), I think most just want a community that understands their problems and they can vent to. Love is a need. Humans are social animals and being deprived of love can be unbearable.
I don't think people should hate Incels or make fun of them. I think these are people that are deprived of human contact and are lonely and depressed. I feel sorry for them. Imagine living your whole life without even a kiss from a girl despite wanting it more than anything else. That's sad.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by julian on Wednesday June 06 2018, @10:08PM
There's an unfortunate trend, or maybe it's always been with us, of people mistaking compassion for approval. The incel community has a lot of bad people displaying some truly reprehensible behavior, but I can still sympathize with their--obviously profound and deeply felt--pain. That doesn't mean I approve of the misogynistic behavior of some of them.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:34PM (1 child)
Thank you for defining that term. It was being bandied about here the past month or so, but I didn't want to encourage the coining of such whackadoodle labels by looking it up.
It's an old concept, and as such there are other perfectly acceptable English words for it: lonely, lovelorn, etc. Let's prefer those. Giving retarded neologisms currency plays into the entire clickbait, concern-trolling industry.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday June 06 2018, @10:31PM
Believe me, somebody can be a TOTAL SEX MACHINE, going at it like a jackhammer or jackrabbit. With the hottest models in the world. And still be lonely!!!
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:25PM (3 children)
Sort of definitionally redundant don't you think?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:29PM (2 children)
Arthur "frequent flyer" Dent was an Incel (a real one, for lack of a planet to find a mate on), but ended up with a daughter.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @08:03PM (1 child)
No he wasn't: He bangs Fenchurch on the wing of a 747 (in flight, no less) in So Long and Thanks for All the Fish.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday June 07 2018, @04:17PM
Do you need to be a virgin to qualify as an Incel ?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Bobs on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:13PM (9 children)
I suspect this study will be cited to help justify the need for funding academic studies about the utility and efficacy of sex bots.
More work for college undergrads!
(Score: 3, Funny) by AssCork on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:21PM (4 children)
Let me know if they need project-manager types for hearding volunteers and observing test-scenarios.
Just popped-out of a tight spot. Came out mostly clean, too.
(Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:44PM (3 children)
Congratulations, you've been hired to "fill" the Robotic Anal Management (RAM) "opening".
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:30PM (1 child)
The fact that sooo many (good and bad) jokes are being made here is a testimony to the absolute necessity to have sex robots!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:39PM
How cum?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @10:02PM
Don't forget DRAM (Dick Robotic Anal Management), SRAM (Shitty Robotic Anal Management), SDRAM (Shitty Dick Robotic Anal Management).
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:42PM (1 child)
I suspect this study will be cited to help justify the need for funding academic studies about the utility and efficacy of sex bots.
(leaving aside the fact this is an editorial and not a study)
Isn't that how it's supposed to work? Identify an area lacking study and then study it?
(Score: 2) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday June 06 2018, @10:42PM
You know, it's always "more study required." Whether it's sexy robots or anything. They do a discovery, it has to be investigated. They investigate it, it has to be confirmed. They confirm it, time to do another discovery. Just like when you're in politics you're always campaigning. It never ends!!!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:58PM (1 child)
Indeed. Now, in addition to college freshmen and sophomores being used for psychological studies, they will be recruited for various tests of sex robots. The times, they are a-changing!
(Score: 4, Funny) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:31PM
The internet called, to remind you that "college student has sex with toy" is not a new field of study.
(Score: 4, Informative) by takyon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:20PM (5 children)
oh em gee
Should we ban sex robots while we have the chance? [theguardian.com]
The Trouble With Sex Robots [nytimes.com]
Call for a ban on child sex robots [bbc.com]
Campaign Against Sex Robots [campaignagainstsexrobots.org]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:57PM (3 children)
the first one is hilarious. the author probably can't even buy groceries properly.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:55PM (1 child)
I can guarantee you that when a male sex robot is produced, those authors will be cheering them on.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday June 06 2018, @11:03PM
Let me tell you, they male robots are coming very soon. This year. I pre-ordered a couple of them from Realbotix. They're for Melanie. We do sex more than once a day, but she wants more. And I don't have time because of documents.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:28AM
Wouldn't bet on it.
Factor in your assessment that the author of the first one is a woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Informative) by BsAtHome on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:26PM
The funny thing is that the term "robot" is either ill-defined or very broadly defined, depending who you ask and which view is represented.
If we say that a robot is "a machine that takes over a manual action", then, by that definition, any vibrating dildo will be a robot. Therefore, we must ban all vibrating dildos too!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by BsAtHome on Wednesday June 06 2018, @04:51PM (1 child)
Well, that also means we should ban the Holodeck (in due time). So, those in Pon Farr will be allowed to kill everybody in the neighborhood and not be confined to the replacement room.
Everything new is scary. Everything used will be misused. There will always be someone disagreeing. And, those with questionable morals will disagree when sex is at the center of discussion. sigh.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:27PM
If you recall, in that episode, the holo-deck idea didn't work.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Snotnose on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:24PM (3 children)
The daily scrum could get a lot more interesting. I can just see "Joan, how are you coming?" "Well Bob, I think I fixed that vagina bug but don't have the hardware required to verify it".
John reopened bug 324: Vagina too tight Reason: That wasn't the vagina.
Mark closed bug 427: Insufficient room Reason: Fred's lying about his equipment again.
Sure beat hell out of discussing how large our TCP windows should be for out satellite based internet.
God gives his toughest battles to his strongest soldiers. I am not one of them, please make it stop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:21PM
error...vagina0 on fire
(Score: 5, Funny) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:35PM
"Where is Tony?"
"He ran to the pharmacy after the error log said something about a failed redirection of STDOUT."
(Score: 2) by Bot on Friday June 08 2018, @09:27AM
- programmer
- what
- clients are complaining, programmer
- WHAT? Jane999, supermodel with stellar AI and flawless construction! Dating a real supermodel will cost less, and give you less satisfaction! she is literally PERFECT
- yes that's the problem
- but... what can you want more than perfect?
- they want LESS, not more, programmer. they play with it a week till their prostate aches, and basically get bored. They miss the interaction with a real female
- oh. I see. In the quest for perfection we kinda overlooked that fact, didn't we. We should have asked marketing
- but they were always busy testing prototypes...
- so, we have to redo the AI
- yes, we need more randomness, more stubborness, more mystery, more...
- ...wait. the problem is already solved.
- what, we have a suitable AI profile?
- much better than that
*programmer hooks up a doll to his terminal and types*
# apt-get install systemd
- done
- done?
- yes, now she'll act like a woman. get insured against accidental murder and remove batteries at night.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by crafoo on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:31PM (1 child)
Such a weird place for our society to be. Thinking we can ban something because it makes us uncomfortable or because of various, baseless, pseudoscience hypothesis.
Do we really want to make that the new norm? While we are talking about "dangerous and society-destroying" trends or technologies .. maybe we should consider our _illegal_ desire to control other peoples' lives.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:40PM
'Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.'
This has been going on probably since the beginning of time. The change would be if we actually reached an enlightened age that lasted more than a few generations without falling back into the same old patterns. I am not sure exactly how long we have been progressive/regressive on any particular subject, but I can say it doesn't seem to last more than a generation or two, even up to modern times.
(Score: 4, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Wednesday June 06 2018, @05:53PM
They banned so many guns in Australia. They said, no more shootings, let's ban a lot of guns. But, big shooting in Western Australia last month. Family of 7 killed. Including many children!
Now they're banning the robot children, maybe folks will stop having sex with children. Or maybe they'll have more sex with children. Because somebody took away their Fake child sex robot and the pressure built up. If you know what I mean. I think the guys know what I mean. Very famous song in the 80s, they said something very smart: people are still having sex. And that's still true.
We were having big problems with mass shootings. And school shootings. School mass shootings. I LISTENED to the survivors, I LISTENED to the teachers, I LISTENED to the parents. And I said, let's have a rating system for movies, let's have ratings for video games. So you can go to the theater, go to the video rental store, go to the cyber store, and you know. This movie, this game is very violent. The other one, not so violent. And maybe there can be a rating system for the robots. This one, very sexy. The other one, not so sexy. And let the market decide.
The gun control doesn't work so great, right? And the sex control, that's a very hard one. IT'S VERY HARD, folks!!!
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 06 2018, @06:49PM (28 children)
The thing that separates sex robots from something like a dildo or--how I wish I didn't know these existed--an "onahole" is that they are human-like. Without even getting into the ramifications of AI here (I'm speaking strictly of lifelike robot shells with minimal to no autonomous movement), the human brain is easy to fool. People are going to latch onto these things *as if they were human* and *that* has implications for how humans relate to one another. Wasn't there already some story about some weirdo in Japan who tried to marry his save file on his DS?
The word "incel" keeps cropping up here, and aside from all the idiot trolling over it in this thread, what I have noticed from thankfully secondhand observation of incel behavior is that most of them think they're *owed* a human's (usually a woman's...) body and time and emotional labor. There's just this pesky thing called "consent" they can't get. These sex robots by definition won't be able to refuse consent, at least not until someone equips Miss Super Hyper-real Green-haired Schoolgirl Bot 3000 with a small flamethrower. So this will only cement the maladaptive behavior patterns above. In other words, the sex bots are a trap: people will reach a comfortable local behavioral minimum with them and simply stop trying to relate to real flesh and blood humans.
This also won't do anything to actually improve relations between the sexes, in any sense of the word "relations." A sex robot is not a lover; it's a very advanced dildo or fleshlight. There's no reciprocal exchange of emotion here. Given that high-tehch societies *already* have declining fertility rates, this doesn't bode well.
Ironically, I can see one good use case for this: countries like India or China that have foolishly practiced sex-selective abortions and now have way way way too many men for the number of women they have. This would be a good stopgap measure, pardon the choice of words. The danger of course is that they *keep* going on this path, since a whole lot of these countries still have pretty iron-age ideas about women as it is (i.e., the culture more or less tries to make "sex bots" out of women to begin with).
Then there's the, uuuugh, "pedo-bot" idea. I'm trying really, really hard to be rational about this. *Rationally speaking,* *if* we are dealing solely with non-AI robots here, there *shouldn't* be any moral problem, but I can't shake the icks. And that's not even getting into what I'm sure some of them will want their robot partners to look like or act like, especially the violent ones. And *that's* not even getting into what happens when AI becomes a thing and someone inevitably creates--no, not going to finish that thought, I just *can't.*
What a mess.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:08PM (1 child)
Q: Why did God create men?
A: Because vibrators can't mow the lawn.
I think there would be a big market for a sex robot that could wash and iron clothes, cook and mow the lawn. Millions of oppressed women would find themselves freed from unhealthy relationships. Greedy and lazy male bigots would have less incentive to fool innocent women into relationships where they would become domestic slaves. I think there are plenty of advantages.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @10:36PM
my wife quit her PhD to be my domestic slave a robot would not... I would be much less proud of myself and my wife would be less fulfilled
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:14PM
It's only a mess when we violate someone's rights.
If someone wants to rape an advanced child sex doll with no rights, let them.
If someone wants to rape an actual human being, violating their rights, don't let them.
If someone wants to carry a gun to protect themselves from potential rapists, let them.
There are no icks or mess until busybodies get involved and try to ban toys.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Immerman on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:55PM (3 children)
I'm not sure I see the problem.
Incels get a more emotionaly satisfying outlet than porn, and probably continue to not take responsibility for their own failings. But at least they're not creeping out on real women so hard.
Many people decide sexbots are more convenient and/or satisfying that real lovers. Big deal - that just means real sex becomes more about having kids than pleasing each other. I really doubt the number of women who want kids is going to plummet. And if it does... let's revisit the problem in a few generations once the global population has fallen below 1 billion and thus solved most of our current challenges.
As for relations between the sexes degrading - what makes you so sure? The "nobility" have been doing just fine keeping their "real" relationships, forged largely for business purposes, separate from their selfish pursuits with disposable peons.
The whole idea that you should find a best friend, life partner, sexual playmate, etc. in one person is really a major historical anomaly only a few centuries old. Removing sex from the "significant features" of the marriage dynamic might very well improve the stability of the institution substantially.
Can't say I'm personally fond of the pedo-bot idea - but I also don't see any harm in it, and potentially a lot of good. The existence of such bots is unlikely to increase the number of pedophiles, at least so long as society continues to frown on pedophilia, and the bots provide a harmless outlet for those impulses. Even the violent offenders, be they pedo or traditional rapists - every rapist who can be satisfied by an animatronic toy means several real people never have to be their victims. I don't see any down side other than the "ick factor" for normal people thinking about it. And frankly if they would rather real children were being raped than icky robots were being made... well I see no reason to respect the opinions of such monsters.
(Score: 3, Funny) by takyon on Wednesday June 06 2018, @08:59PM (2 children)
Oh, shit... if you want to ban pedobots, you might be a pedophile!
At least, that's what should be spammed on every other forum where this issue pops up.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @09:52PM (1 child)
Only a small fraction of pedophiles (as opposed to child molesters) actually want to rape children to begin with. So maybe there are people who will be stopped from raping others because of this, but probably not a massive amount.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:48AM
Yes, I don't find unsubstantiated claims of a significant direct effect in either direction very credible. Likely as you say most people that would use this would have never been an actual threat to begin with, it might delay but probably not prevent a few who *were* otherwise destined to become a threat from doing so, and it might conceivably result in a few of the otherwise harmless ones 'escalating' when they would not have as well, but if either effect turns out to be real I predict it will be small.
The bigger concern that I can see, and give some credence too, is the 'normalization' potentially involved. It shouldn't be - just because something is legal doesn't make it moral and any child should understand that, but it's a sad fact that they don't always and this worry is not entirely unfounded.
It's certainly not a thing that should be advertised or mentioned in a place where children are expected to be, but somehow I have a feeling it's only going to be a few years before you see these displayed in store windows somewhere...
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday June 06 2018, @09:30PM
Stop trying to do something they are not having success doing? I don't see the problem. If a sex bot can fill a need that these incels aren't able to fill on their own with a human partner then more power to them.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Wednesday June 06 2018, @11:33PM
A few other angles to consider...
*) In relationships where one part has a _much_ stronger sexdrive than the other, a doll that is a physical replica of the one with lesser sexdrive actually might be good for the purpose of unwinding. (ie, getting the emotional and intellectual needs from the flesh and blood, and getting the needs of the flesh from the mechanics)
*) Consider the case of the people that doesn't feel comfortable with people (not even themselves) to beign with, in some sense a sexbot might be their only way to reach satisfaction (well, up until we loosen the laws of human genetic modification enough to allow to creation of sufficiently non-human humans).
*) Where is the "sufficiently humanlike" limit? Some see a face in a smiley, some are creeped out by pixar's movies (I am), some find people without makeup weird-looking, some have fetishes for clowns. So where is the limit? Is a life-size anime pillow close enough? A pac-man pillow? A mannequin? A ball with a smiley face on it? Said ball when put in a leather hood? A geminoid?
*) Used as a tool to help people to get used to the notion of sex or intimacy after being subjected to sexual trauma, being a tad bit too lifelike but not lifelike enough to be scary could be a good thing.
*) And let's not forget that sufficiently advanced sex robots will also solve (most of) the engineering/robotics issues to create exoskeletons to allow (partially) paralyzed people to have more varied sex again (if nothing else in order to satisfy their partner, see the first point).
(Personally I don't really see anything wrong with crashing the human population figures _hard_, but that is besides my point.)
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday June 06 2018, @11:36PM (3 children)
I suspect those sexbot buying folks will quickly learn that the best part of sex is the emotional connection. It is stimulating your partner and having them respond. A robot will never do that, even if they eventually figure out how to make its moans sound sincere.
As to the effect of sexbots on society, it seems the effects will be self-correcting over the long run. That is, the people who use sexbots exclusively and fail to have successful relationships with others will die out.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:28AM
The best part? Let's be honest, that part is orgasming YOURSELF.
I enjoy making the other person cum and enjoy the intimacy and buildup for them, but if I am not cumming the vast majority of the time, it's not worth it. Might as well just give them a backscratch instead of sex.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @05:46AM
If that were the case, wouldn't homosexuals have long since 'died out'? (oh wait, is that something they're born with, or is it a choice... which week is it again?)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @02:06AM
There's this attitude that you're a failure if you don't get into relationships with others. However, this is just an example of projecting your own desires onto other people, since not everyone wants to be in relationships. Some people are asexuals. Some people are aromantics. And separate but somewhat related, some people are extremely introverted. If someone doesn't desire a relationship, that is okay. If someone is introverted and doesn't feel the need to have much human contact, that is also okay. Neither makes you a 'failure'.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday June 06 2018, @11:59PM
> won't be able to refuse consent, at least not until someone equips Miss Super Hyper-real Green-haired Schoolgirl Bot 3000 with a small flamethrower.
"Our most realistic model comes with our patented trans-vaginal cervix-activated bear trap, which is only deactivated by putting a ring on her finger and reading very clearly the vows printed in the manual. She'll keep half of your junk if don't operate her correctly"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @06:33AM (12 children)
Personally, it's the other real flesh and blood humans who have decided not to relate with me. Data collected to date strongly suggest that attempts to change physical and/or psychological/emotional aspects of myself to entice such relations will continue to meet with rejection.
That's fine. I fully support the right of all real flesh and blood humans to choose to not be around me.
However. If sexbots ever do get to the point where their physical components are sufficiently (to me) human like to be attractive, and AI aspects are sufficiently advanced (to me) to have something close to a personality, then I will have one. Although frankly, I doubt that such advances will happen within my lifetime, particularly since what is currently available seems closer to blow-up dolls than portrayals of androids in science fiction media.
But if they are possible, and the society I am in bans them, then I will move to a society (if they will have me) that does not ban them. If all societies were to ban them, then I am afraid that I would then have to devote nearly every waking moment to the destruction of civilization. I know, that's crazy-talk. I would almost assuredly be able to accomplish next to nothing on my own. But would I be on my own? I don't think so. (think 'Atlas Shrugged' but instead of most people 'going Galt' -- that is, choosing to just no longer contribute to society -- instead quite a few people 'going Danneskjöld', and actively destroying what they can)
Let's be blunt: the reason that sexbots might be economically viable products is only because we don't buy and sell people anymore. Sexbots are replacements for slaves. If sexbots are banned, well, why not go back to slavery? Sure, that seems incomprehensible to us today. But a (nearly) world-wide ban on slavery was just as inconceivable just to people 300 years ago. Things change, and not always for the better. Historically this 'no slavery' thing is a very new concept. Be a shame if lots of people changed their minds about it, wouldn't it?
There are a lot worse options then letting the people who want to have sexbots have the sexbots. Leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone, which is frankly what you want, right?
(Score: 3, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:56AM (11 children)
I'm sorry, did you just threaten to blow up and/or enslave the entire world if you can't have your animatronic fucktoy...? You know, there might, *just might,* be a *reason* other real flesh and blood humans have decided not to relate with you. This certainly won't help your case.
On the other hand, you know what? You've actually convinced me that there's a good use case for these things: keeping people like you from pissing in the gene pool.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @01:25PM
Yes. Right now it's a moot point, because such things aren't really possible. Yet.
Look, I fully support the right of all people, explicitly including women, to be in relationships, of whatever type, only with those they choose. Unlike the incel folks, I don't believe women owe a damn thing to anyone. Your body is yours, period. If 80% of women want only 20% of the men, and I'm not in that 20% that's wanted, so be it. (I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but even if it is, that's okay.) Life ain't fair.
But if machines do come into existence that could bring me, and men like me, a little bit of joy of a type that no human beings are willing to provide, many of us will want to have such a machine. By what right do you, or anyone else, think you can withhold THAT from us as well? I don't care how desperate you are to collectively maintain women's monopoly on the holy magical vagina, you're not going to stop us. If you try, then that will prove you have no respect for any of OUR rights, needs, or wants, and many of us will no longer have any concern for yours. Including any concern that the food delivery systems that keep food coming to your, or anyone's, area still function. Or the power. Or the water.
If it's just me thinking like this, hey, just one crazy nut on the internet, no problem. But I'm trying to make you aware of the seething hate and rage that will come into existence if these machines are banned. Societies and civilizations are fragile things. They can survive a long time with a large part of the population not really participating in them; indifferent neglect is no threat. But if even a relatively small number of people actively attack those systems, even the ones that help keep *themselves* alive, those systems will start to fail. I'm not saying this because I want this to happen, I want to *prevent* you (and others like you) from doing a very stupid thing that might *make* it happen.
If sexbots that lonely guys can fuck can one day be made, but they are banned, then the civilizational systems that created that ban will be destroyed. You will NOT deprive us of all hope of joy.
Relax, I'm already out of the gene pool. Cancer damn near killed me, and my genetic line will not, can not, continue. Hell, I can barely walk. How do you think I'd dare make statements that could be stretched to sound like terrorist threats? The folks tracking such things can look me up immediately and know I'm not a threat. I'll be lucky to live another 10 years, and there aren't going to be any miracle AI breakthroughs in that time. I really meant it when I said previously that 'real' sexbots will not happen in my lifetime. I'll be dead before then. For me this is strictly an academic exercise.
I, personally, will not do a damn thing. But I'm not the only one thinking these thoughts, at least I don't think so. But hey, maybe the treatments scrambled my brain and I'm just a nut. I have to admit it's a distinct possibility. But I truly do think that if these machines become possible, and you try to keep them from all the men that have been rejected all their lives, those men will kill you. Not 'you' personally, but the whole fucking civilization. After all, why shouldn't they? At that point, you'll have proven that you're not interested in freedom for yourself, what you really want is control over them. They. Will. Rebel.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by r_a_trip on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:18PM (8 children)
What do you want girl? Do you want to force people, who the world at large deems unattractive to associate with, to interact with that world at all costs? I'm doing fairly well for a nerdy, gay introvert, but I know how hard it is to relate to those who are categorised as "normal people". From a large non-overlap in interests, to a mismatch in the way connection transpires. For better or worse, we are social animals. Even if the social part for some is far less easy or innate than others. We more or less all crave connection.
I can very well imagine some people having such bad luck in connecting that having a human-like doll as a (sexual) companion seems very attractive. Of course succesful social animals will rush to proclaim that all can be solved by just trying harder, but life is unfair and for some trying harder just means more effort and pain for surreptitiously failing. When was the last time you were a good Samaritan and adopted a socially less desirable person, be it looks or a personality that doesn't do anything for your own amusement?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 07 2018, @07:22PM (7 children)
"Nerdy, gay introvert" is a fair description of me. I just lucked out and met another nerdy gay introvert (and she's even nerdier than me, like "builds Gundam models for fun" nerdy). You're still missing the point here: no human owes another human access to his or her body or heart.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by r_a_trip on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:37PM (6 children)
Never claimed that. Don't believe that to be true ever. I do believe you are severely overstepping with your ick reaction to robotic companions. Some people need physicality and can't get it from beings with a pulse. Why take away a surrogate? It seems unusually cruel. Sometimes the world doesn't revolve around you and your firmly held beliefs that people won't respect you if they don't need another human being for intimacy. If anything, someone finding some simile of intimacy with a machine might even make them more inclined to treat others kinder, because they don't feel the pain of rejection all the time.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 07 2018, @09:45PM (5 children)
So long as the things never get AI, I'd be okay with this. It's when they become intelligent that we have a real problem. I'm wondering if there should be some kind of registry for purchasers of these things, or at least the, ugh, "pedobot" models, though. But it's still not the same thing as real interaction with a real human being. At best it's going to be a poor substitute, as porn is to sex. These things need to be accompanied by therapy, and perhaps only rented rather than owned.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @02:19AM
What's the justification for that? Maybe there should be a registry for people who play violent video games, or listen to that evil rock & roll. Plenty of similar arguments have been made about other things in the past, but for some reason they're only valid when you find something icky. A registry like that necessarily violates people's rights, and it also presumes guilt.
To you. Some people want a relationship but can't get it. Those people exist, sure. Others don't want a relationship or real sex at all, for any number of reasons (asexual, aromantic, not worth the effort, etc.). I'm tired of people just assuming that relationships are inherently desirable to everyone.
So they need therapy even if they never plan to harm anyone? That makes about as much sense as saying that gay people need therapy. It's pure bigotry.
If the argument is that they pose a potential threat, then that applies to everyone in existence and could be (and has been) abused in countless ways, so that line of reasoning is fallacious as well.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by r_a_trip on Friday June 08 2018, @10:07AM (3 children)
*** But it's still not the same thing as real interaction with a real human being. At best it's going to be a poor substitute, as porn is to sex. These things need to be accompanied by therapy, and perhaps only rented rather than owned. ***
You still think there is someone for all individuals. What if there isn't? Therapy, while very beneficial, isn't a cure all. As an introvert, you must know that interacting with others can be a challenge.
There are people who are not only introverted, but also suffer from severe social anxiety. Add in bad luck in the genetic lottery and you end up with an individual with perfectly human needs, but not the looks nor the skills. Instead of treating these individuals as potential criminals, maybe show some compassion. Also count your own blessings that you are not desperate enough to consider a human shaped hunk of plastic.
***So long as the things never get AI, I'd be okay with this. It's when they become intelligent that we have a real problem.***
If AI ever reaches the level of resembling sentience (I'm not holding my breath), we are still the masters and can program it to not suffer. If it doesn't have negative feelings, like pain, resentment, anger, fear, feeling trapped, where is the suffering? No need to campaign for the poor oppressed sexbots.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday June 08 2018, @07:05PM (2 children)
Uh, yeah, introverted? Check. Severe social anxiety? Until rather recently, check, and it hasn't been cured so much as forcefully battered down in the interest of survival. Genetic lottery? Eh, could be worse. I can't see or hear for shit and can't afford hearing aids, but at least have the usual assortment of limbs and organs and no seriously damaging inborn errors of metabolism. The ones that are there are manageable through careful diet and supplementation.
Look, I *get* it. I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of, for example, a paraplegic with a serious case of ugly through no fault of her own (accident or genetics). Just, still not sure this is the right way to go about it. It needs proper regulation for certain, whatever ends up happening.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 09 2018, @03:19AM (1 child)
What regulation might that be? Putting people who buy sex robots on lists? Forcing people who buy sex robots to go to therapy? Because that's what I keep seeing mentioned, and neither are acceptable approaches because they violate basic liberties. However, I could get behind regulations which mandate that the sex robots not be made of materials that give people cancer, and other things of that sort.
The outrage about sex robots is nothing more than puritanical sex negative nonsense.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday June 09 2018, @04:11AM
Here's the big one, to me: never ever ever make them sentient. They should never be smarter than the Eliza chat program. This is as much for humans' protection as for the robots'.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 08 2018, @02:12AM
Violating people's rights on a massive scale should result in severe repercussions for the oppressors. For example, conducting mass surveillance on the populace - as the NSA does - should result in severe consequences for the NSA and those in power who support its activities. If it can't be fixed through ordinary political means, then the problem has to be fixed somehow. Destroying their facilities and surveillance infrastructure, blowing the whistle on their activities, etc.
The fact is, while you trivialize the issue, banning sex robots would be an act of oppression since you're creating a crime that has no actual victims.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @08:41AM
The "in" part of "incel" is short for "involuntary". As in, it wasn't their own decision to not have sex, someone else decided to say no. Thus, someone who doesn't "get" consent cannot be incel.
Unless you think the "involuntary" part means "not fast enough to catch a woman, not smart enough to trap one".
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DutchUncle on Wednesday June 06 2018, @07:25PM (3 children)
We need to drop some Westworld on ISIS, and Hamas, and Boko Haram, and a bunch of other groups, especially those known for suicide bombings. Give them something better to do with their time, and some reason to think that living might be more fun than dying.
(Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Wednesday June 06 2018, @08:12PM (2 children)
You mean, there are not enough virgins available in paradise, so we need to provide a substitute?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 06 2018, @09:40PM (1 child)
Lemmy is dead. There are no virgins left in Heaven.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:35AM
How can you be certain he went "up"?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 3, Funny) by leftover on Thursday June 07 2018, @12:36AM (1 child)
How much C4 should we pack into them and what should the trigger conditions be?
Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 07 2018, @02:28AM
The trigger condition: explode as soon as asshole Mr. leftover finishes packing it.