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Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
In an investigation of head impact burden and change in neurocognitive function during a season of youth football, researchers find that sub-concussive impacts are not correlated with worsening performance in neurocognitive function.
[...] A research team, led by Sean Rose, MD, pediatric sports neurologist and co-director of the Complex Concussion Clinic at Nationwide Children's Hospital, followed 112 youth football players age 9-18 during the 2016 season in a prospective study.
"When trying to determine the chronic effects of repetitive sub-concussive head impacts, prospective outcomes studies are an important complement to the existing retrospective studies," says Dr. Rose. "In this study of primary school and high school football players, a battery of neurocognitive outcomes tests did not detect any worsening of performance associated with cumulative head impacts."
[...] In their secondary analysis, they found that younger age and reported history of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) predicted score changes on several cognitive testing measures and parent-reported ADHD symptoms. Additionally, a reported history of anxiety or depression predicted changes in scores of symptom reporting.
-- submitted from IRC
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday October 17 2018, @09:37PM (17 children)
There is nothing wrong at all with full contact sports. Boys in particular enjoy that sort of thing (I know that's a generalisation, it is also generally true).
The problem with the American type of football is not the contact, it is the helmets and pads. These make the players feel less vulnerable than they really are.
The NFL will be well aware of this as they are not stupid, but if they got rid of helmets and pads for the players, the game would change and so it won't happen. The Golden Goose etc.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday October 17 2018, @09:51PM (9 children)
I can't agree with your solution, and here's why: Rugby is a full-contact sport played without pads or anything more then a soft cap on one's head, and there's still lots of concussion problems and also a big problem with spinal cord injuries. Now, I'm all for switching the efforts made in the US for their own peculiar football game towards rugby, because rugby is a more interesting game with much more continuous activity, but that has nothing to do with injury rates.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:08PM (5 children)
Ah, well now you're on my turf talking about rugby, because I am born and raised in the only country in the world that actually takes rugby seriously.
I won't pretend that there are no concussions or spinal injuries in rugby, because that would be dishonest, but the incidence of spinal injuries in particular has dropped massively over the last 20 years or so, because world rugby changed the way scrums are set specifically because of the problem.
Concussion does happen at the highest level, but a lot less than it used to, and is almost unheard of in the weight restricted grades, which is where most players play now.
The elder junior zombie played rugby for 10 years, mostly at prop, which is the position most at risk from spinal injury, and he never felt at risk. You cannot play as a front rower (prop or hooker) unless you have been coached how to do it properly.
He did concuss another kid once, but that was because of a punch, so completely intentional.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday October 18 2018, @02:28AM (4 children)
Which country was that? I was under the impression there were quite a few different countries with substantial rugby scenes.
My own connection to the game is that my sister played No 8 for her collegiate team, but had to quit due to shoulder injuries.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday October 18 2018, @07:06PM (3 children)
There are several countries with substantial rugby scenes, but it is a uniformly upper class sport everywhere, except Wales and New Zealand (also some of the English counties).
Putting aside Wales for a moment, New Zealand is the only country in the world where you will find a Labourer playing alongside a Lawyer.
There are lots of countries where rugby is played socially, in fact a friend of mine got a game in Spain once.
There is a saying that Football (soccer) is a game for gentlemen played by thugs, and rugby is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, but that doesn't apply over here. Everyone plays and it is the national religion.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday October 18 2018, @07:53PM (2 children)
My understanding of that is that at one point rugby union was the upper-class version, whereas the labourers were playing rugby league because there was a chance of getting paid to play rugby league while rugby union was strictly amateur for most of its history.
Here in the USA, the focus has been mostly on sevens. There are some local amateur clubs playing rugby union around as well, although they often have serious problems coming up with 15 players on a side.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday October 18 2018, @08:06PM (1 child)
The Rugby League/ Rugby Union split happened about 100 years ago in England. The northern clubs wanted to pay their players because they were working class lads, but the southern clubs were the gentry who didn't need the money, so the Rugby League was formed in Yorkshire and Lancashire.
I suspect a similar split occurred in New South Wales and Queensland which are the Rugby League states in Australia.
Curiously, in Australia the indigenous form of football (Australian Rules Football) is played in Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Territory. They have wound up with a similar football culture to New Zealand, were everyone playes or supports the one code, and there is no split along lines.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday October 18 2018, @08:10PM
*Along class lines.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 18 2018, @10:09AM
beer. rugby involves waaaaaay more beer. obviously a superior sport.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday October 18 2018, @10:13AM (1 child)
are there? i thought the different way of tackling made a difference. i remember lots of bleeding though.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday October 18 2018, @07:56PM
There's more of a concussion problem in rugby than you might think, at least according to this [brain-injury-law-center.com].
As for bleeding, the fact that there's a rule that you have to be subbed out if you're bleeding should be an indication of how common that is.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:25PM (2 children)
The best way to solve it would be to find out how to heal brain damage caused by blows to the head. This would intersect with anti-aging and regenerative medicine research. Without this research, football players are essentially gladiators damaging themselves, especially their minds, for our amusement.
If the damage can be healed, then all you have to do is keep the players from dying right there on the field. And that already seems to be figured out with all the foam and pads.
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(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:45PM (1 child)
So, without the research, they're just gladiators permanently damaged for your amusement, but with the research, we could heal the non-dead ones, so they'd be gladiators temporarily damaged for your amusement?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday October 18 2018, @12:00AM
Indeed. Except not for my own personal amusement since I almost never watch it.
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(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:59PM (3 children)
"There is nothing wrong at all with full contact sports."
-
You're full of shit, you stupid motherfucker.
And anyone who believes your bullshit claim is a naive fool.
Do the world a favor and either kill yourself or chop off all your fingers so you cannot type any more of your idiotic spew.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday October 18 2018, @01:14AM (2 children)
Well, good evening, Mr. Troll! And, what sports do YOU engage in? And, what Rites of Passage have YOU passed? Or, more generally, what have you ever done? Are you one of those drones who calmly, and passively, sat in classrooms, from the age of 3 or 4, and never ventured more than ten feet from the view of a teacher, parent, or guardian? And, you went directly from the school classrooms to college, and straight from college to a nice padded cubicle warehouse?
Although I think sports are overhyped in school and in college - not to mention professional sport - sport do have an important role in men's development. Sports, hunting and camping, hiking, and dozens of other "risky" activities.
If sports had nothing else in it's favor, sports keep a lot of young men out of gangs. That alone makes sport worthwhile.
Stop being such a curmudgeon. Hell, you make me look like the happy host of an idiot game show.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday October 18 2018, @08:21PM (1 child)
Not to be too much of a curmudgeon, but:
1. Why sports? What exactly does football teach you that, say, being in the marching band or the Boy Scouts doesn't? How do sports compare to, say, working on a construction project where you have to work together to keep everyone safe and accomplish your goals?
2. In particular why sports that involve lots of injuries? What exactly is lost if kids are playing the relatively safer soccer, volleyball, lacrosse, baseball, and basketball instead of football and hockey? How about the totally non-contact sports like long-distance running?
3. What does any of that have to do with hunting, camping, and hiking? If you're doing those activities properly, they aren't risky at all. As in, I've done tons of camping and hiking, and the riskiest part of each of those trips was driving to where I was going to head into the wilderness.
As for keeping young men away from criminal activity, I'm not sure how putting guys in a situation where they get brain damage and taught to hurt other people who they've quite possibly never met but are wearing a different color uniform than they are helps with that. Especially when said young men often get a pass when they commit crimes such as vandalism, drunk driving, and rape because the success of the team is too important to make a big deal about any of that.
And yes, I've played sports in my time. I still occasionally do, never at a serious level of course but just friendly matches. I have no idea what "rites of passage" you're talking about, but I've been in some situations where there was a risk of something seriously bad happening to me, and I've obviously come through it.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday October 19 2018, @01:07AM
I threw hunting and hiking in there because it's what I did. And, you mention running - again, that was me.
But, not everyone is the same. I never played football, but I recognize that it is a team sport, and it is a valid, useful way for youngsters to spend their time.
As for hunting and hiking being safer than football - every single year, we lose hunters, and hikers. Especially in the high country, hikers, and especially, mountain climbers get into trouble. Outdoor sports have their hazards.
Of course, the alternative is to sit in padded rooms all of your life. There are few if any hazards associated with sitting in padded rooms.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 17 2018, @10:10PM (5 children)
Get rid of the helmets and pads, have each team stay in its own safe space for the duration of the game, then award everyone a trophy at the end of the season.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday October 17 2018, @10:38PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcastaball [wikipedia.org]
Southpark did it
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:12PM (3 children)
Get rid of helmets and pads, then allow the players to smash into each other as hard as they like. They will hurt each other less, because no armour.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:35PM (1 child)
Before money-driven pros started spending way too much time bulking up in the gym, rugby contacts were a lot less violent
And rugby had a clear unwritten rule to keep people playing nice: You will, at some point in the game, be at the bottom of the pile, and the people above you will remember whether you've been an asshole. The referee may just happen to miss that part of the action. It worked pretty well.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:48PM
That's true.
Also, the pile is known as a "ruck" and even if the other side weren't trying to kill you, it was never a safe place to be.*
*Citation: Te Hihi v Karaka c. 1977.
(Score: 3, Funny) by mhajicek on Thursday October 18 2018, @07:22AM
Get rid of the toy helmets and pads and the ball, give them real steel armor and blunted steel swords and axes, and call it Battle of Nations. That's a real sport.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 1, Disagree) by pkrasimirov on Wednesday October 17 2018, @10:37PM (3 children)
Study found that hitting young people on the head is bad for them. Also water is wet and steel is heavy.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:00PM (2 children)
Read more carefully. What they found is that it ISN'T bad.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday October 18 2018, @01:17AM
That isn't quite accurate. I think it better to say that the study found that hitting those kids in the head is far less bad than was thought. It's still not a great thing to be hit in the head. Concussion or not, it HURTS!!
(Score: 2) by termigator on Thursday October 18 2018, @02:15AM
Problem is the study’s time period is too short. Cognative problems can take a long time to develop, where damage to the brain may have occurred, but has yet to show symptoms. Hmm, scanning the article, this does appear to be part of a four year study. I wonder why they bothered to publish stuff now vs waiting until the study is fully complete.
Not sure if it is possible or practical, but would be worth compare kids who only played one year and quit. Same with a 2-year group and then evaluate them a few years later to see if there is any long term effects of playing only for a smaller period of time vis-a-vis all through school. Maybe include MRIs to see if there is any damage that has yet to show external symptoms.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 17 2018, @11:52PM (1 child)
I read the summary, and in desperation even read the article. I still don't know what it means. Specifically...
So... that means that sub-concussive impacts had no negative consequences?
So... if a person had ADHD or reported other psychological issues, they scored worse... but that seems unrelated to concussions? How does that play in with the 1st quote?
Can somebody who is better with science-jargon explain?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday October 18 2018, @12:08AM
It's the first year's results from a four year study.
Apparently, the "sub-concussive" head impacts and "isolated high g-force impacts" (harder hits) did not worsen cognitive performance... by the end of the first year.
This isn't too much of a surprise. The symptoms tend to get worse later in life. Also, maybe children are able to more easily recover from impacts than adult pro players.
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(Score: 2, Interesting) by jmorris on Thursday October 18 2018, @02:54AM
We still know almost nothing more than we did, and we won't. We do know that a lot of really successful folk played various contact sports back in the age before we all became snowflakes. And the science is pretty much useless since agendas have invaded it. See the next Soylent article for an example of why nobody trusts science anymore in general and especially once politics or money touch it. Both are touching the brain injury in football question.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 18 2018, @10:27AM (1 child)
A contestant in this year's UK 'Apprentice' was a promising soccer player who once had a trial with a major professional team. She didn't make the cut because she refused to head the ball.
She is quite happy to tell this story about herself; she seems to think it makes her look clever.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday October 18 2018, @02:32PM
That always seemed a pretty stupid part of the game. I don't really understand what purpose it serves other than everyone else is willing to cause medical injuries so we have to, to keep up.
Football collisions are an unavoidable part of the nature of the game, heading a soccer ball would be tangential and seemingly unrelated like requiring track athletes to get kicked in the balls for the sheer hell of it.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Thursday October 18 2018, @02:20PM
All teens act kinda brain damaged at least some of the time; part of the job description of being a teen. Might be a struggle to gather good solid data.
Also I don't think the parents generally care about the actual medical stuff nor does the school which also makes data gathering weird. I've had three parental concussion trainings so far. One was for my kids to participate in cross country and the disorientation was about a hundred parents playing on their phone and ignoring the presentation because tetanus or getting bit by a rabid racoon is a somewhat more realistic danger (which does not have any CYA training, BTW). The second was my son doing track, I got the paper refresher packet and signoff claiming I read and memorized the entire packet (uh yeah sure I did). I suppose some long jumpers or pole vaulters will land on their heads, but he was doing mid-distance sprints so I figured he didn't need a helmet to do the 200 and 400, or a helmet would be more likely to cause heatstroke than protect the skull. The third was this online deal that wasn't very memorable for my daughter to play badminton, click click click enter my name click. As CYA training has advanced over recent years its gone from boring HR-like human presentations to "sign something declaring you watched some shitty youtube video".
Possibly the parent concussion training is more serious for sports where concussions could realistically happen, soccer, polo, football, dressage, SCA fencing club, whatever.
The problem with existing training for parents is its designed by lawyers to cover the butts of the school district. I would be moderately interested to compare the danger of getting whacked with a badminton racket to a football defensive lineman. I would guess that low-mass high-speed stuff like a badminton racket to the head is more likely to require stitches and less likely to cause TBI than a defensive lineman headbutting a oncoming 300 pound offensive lineman, but thats just a gut level engineering estimate, who knows for sure. Kinda a pity that all the "end user" level stuff is purely CYA legal bullshit and not much useful medical data. If anything ever touches your childs head, the school officially advises you to take them to the ER immediately for a MRI, or something pretty similar.
I'm told that technically the minecraft club operates under the gender neutral after school title something or other school sports program (e-sports?) such that my son can't join until I take his school provided concussion training, but that might just be parents bullshitting. I'm sure there are kids in the minecraft club who had to take concussion training who coincidentally happen to be boxing club or some BS like that. We'll see what happens.
Overall as an actual parent of teens (not a teen-parent, LOL) I am somewhat more concerned about the semi-realistic danger of them dying in a new driver car accident than some kind of freak 400M dash concussion accident. Its interesting to think about that it COULD be true that more kids get brain injuries from driving themselves to far away gymnastics meets and getting into car accidents than get hurt in the gym itself. Typical CYA stuff.