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posted by Dopefish on Monday February 24 2014, @09:00PM   Printer-friendly
from the don't-click-ok-to-accept-the-eula dept.

andrew writes:

"Alternet.org reports recent updates to terms of conditions for Bank of Americas cell phone app and Capital Ones new credit card contract have given banks unsettling new abilities. These privileges include the authority to access to your phone microphone and camera or even showing up at your workplace and home unannounced at any time.

From the the article:

We're witnessing a new era of fascism, where corporations are creating intrusive and over-bearing terms and conditions that customers click to agree to without even reading.

As a result, corporations in America have acquired king-like power, while we're the poor serfs that must abide by their every rule or else."

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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by TrumpetPower! on Monday February 24 2014, @09:04PM

    by TrumpetPower! (590) <ben@trumpetpower.com> on Monday February 24 2014, @09:04PM (#6170) Homepage

    The type of mentality that causes people in power to think that this sort of thing is a good idea...well, historically, it hasn't proven to be a long-term winning strategy, even if it does tend to be effective in the short term. And, the worst of it is, the failure mode when it stops working is generally pretty spectacular.

    Cheers,

    b&

    --
    All but God can prove this sentence true.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by keplr on Monday February 24 2014, @09:39PM

      by keplr (2104) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:39PM (#6209) Journal

      The psychopaths in power are betting that they'll be part of the generation who live like kings in their gilded mansions for their natural lives, and not the psychopaths who end up with piano wire neckties when their pyramid scheme finally crashes to the ground.

      --
      I don't respond to ACs.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by zsau on Monday February 24 2014, @11:12PM

        by zsau (2642) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:12PM (#6266)

        It's a very safe bet. Most people who abuse power get away with it until they hit the grave when they're old, fat and happy. It's instructive to look at North Korea.

        Then of course there's the fact that a great many of them don't actually realise they're doing anything wrong. We've trained people to think that if you agree to it, and it's a financial transaction, then it's fine---especially if parliament/congress hasn't passed a law against it. Of course not every voluntary financial transaction is ethical, but the discourse of our age is such that it's extremely difficult to communicate that idea without sounding like a kook or---indeed---a psychopath.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by TheLink on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:41AM

          by TheLink (332) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:41AM (#6371) Journal
          Yeah nowadays there's too much tendency for everyone to go "It's in the T&C/contract, you shouldn't have accepted it" to the victims of crappy T&Cs/contracts and leave it at that.

          True they shouldn't have accepted, but we should fight such BS. Similar for "Yes it's a crappy T&C/contract but it's unenforceable by current laws". Publicizing really crappy T&Cs and boycotts might help. But it has to be done while there still are reasonable alternatives.
          • (Score: 2) by zsau on Tuesday February 25 2014, @05:24AM

            by zsau (2642) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @05:24AM (#6413)

            "True they shouldn't have accepted it" is going to far, and boycotts and advertising are playing at the wrong place. The very offer of the term is unethical, and our language and ethical discussion needs to be based around that principle, not just tacking it on at the end with a boycott.

            What alternative do they have? No-one can properly value everything that goes into one of these t&cs, but you need to agree to all sorts of crazy shit just to get by. The language is designed to be incomprehensible and ignored. You have no capacity to challenge it, and you're only option is to turn down something that you need.

            People these days think the medievals were evil because, for instance, of making people serfs. But all the serfs voluntarily got into that position because they or their ancestors agreed that they and their children would have a guaranteed place to live and work in exchange for a share in the produce of the land.

            People these days think that slavery is always evil, but many slaves voluntarily agreed to a debt, where one of the t&cs was that if you couldn't repay, you would be enslaved.

            T&Cs generally can't be rationally interpreted by people. The exchange should be money for a product, not money and your first-born son for a product. Unreasonable and overly complicated terms simply shouldn't be offered.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by TheLink on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:40AM

              by TheLink (332) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:40AM (#6430) Journal
              Yeah you've put it better - long time ago many people got crappy T&Cs and they accepted because the other alternatives were really crap (starving to death, or getting raped, robbed, pillaged by bandits and other Lords).

              Later a whole bunch of our ancestors finally rejected that. But now we're letting it happen again, bit by bit.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:15AM

      by hemocyanin (186) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:15AM (#6361) Journal

      A lot of history proves you wrong -- just how long was the French monarchy crushing its citizenry? Hundreds and hundreds of years. For most of that time, it totally paid for the rulers to be assholes. Same thing with Czars. It is only rarely that things go wrong for the ruling class, and then, we just get a new ruling is installed.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 25 2014, @11:11AM

      by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @11:11AM (#6542) Journal

      I can't think of a suitable XKCD to refute your post, so here's a highly relevant OOTS instead: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html [giantitp.com]

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday February 24 2014, @09:06PM

    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 24 2014, @09:06PM (#6175) Journal

    The poor serfs are not forced into doing or accepting anything. Don't buy the product. Don't accept any conditions imposed. There, problem solved.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by TWiTfan on Monday February 24 2014, @09:07PM

      by TWiTfan (2428) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:07PM (#6179)

      Yeah, who needs stuff like a bank account and internet service anyway? We'll live off the land, we will!

      --
      If real life were like D&D, my Charisma score would be a negative number
      • (Score: 1) by Blackmoore on Monday February 24 2014, @09:25PM

        by Blackmoore (57) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:25PM (#6198) Journal

        ...yes.. there is only one option to bank at of course..

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Rune of Doom on Monday February 24 2014, @09:39PM

          by Rune of Doom (1392) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:39PM (#6210)

          If Capital One gets away with this (which it probably will) expect other banks to follow. The entire US system (I'm uncertain what to call it, 'terminal capitalism'?) is building to a point of maximizing non-productive wealth-extraction and rent seeking at a cost of (among other things) ensuring that there are no alternatives and no graceful failure modes. Without major changes, the United States is heading for a hard crash. Not in the immediate future (the equivalent of spit and baling wire can keep things running for a long time: look at the Roman Empire) but eventually, and when it comes it is going to be horrendous beyond the imagination of 99.99% of Americans.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by sfm on Monday February 24 2014, @10:32PM

            by sfm (675) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:32PM (#6247)

            Publishing this info will help make people aware of the TOS details. This is the first step convincing them to change.

            It stands to reason that they want people to use their App. If the install base fails to grow, it
            is possible BOA will re-evaluate.

          • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:01AM

            by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:01AM (#6295) Homepage

            I'll bet you where this is all going - we'll probably see emergence of debtors' prisons with in the U.S. in another twenty years. And you bet your asses you'll be working that debt off, being paid at a rate so low that not even Chinese labor could compete with yours.

            Too lazy to read the actual terms of service but I suspect that there are ways around it. If you can get the service without installing the app, then don't install the app and instead do your online banking through the mobile browser. Alternately, tell them you don't have a phone. Assuming you aren't trying to gain anything super-important (big loans/mortgages etc.), you could lie about your information and say that you "just moved," give a spam e-mail address, and for fuck's sake do not ever reveal your employer. Finally, if they send somebody to your door to enlighten you about a new service or a late payment, scream "rape!" and kick their guts in after a tazing or perhaps a heapin' helpin' of pepper-spray.

          • (Score: 0) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:56AM

            by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:56AM (#6308) Homepage Journal

            Did you get your job, or if you are a hiring manager, did you go through a third-party recruiting agency?

            Someone like Manpower Professional, Kelly IT, or Oxford Global Resources?

            You will be happy to know that Yahoo Finance quite clearly shows that the vast majority of the business expenses of the publicly-traded "body shops" is due to sales.

            That is, if you hired me through Manpower Professional, then at the going rate - sometimes it is more - if I'm still on the job after three months, you will pay Manpower Professional thirty percent of my first year's salary. If I'm a contract programmer, then you will pay Manpower Professional thirty percent of my hourly pay, FOR THE ENTIRE TIME I WORK FOR YOU!

            Manpower Professional will then blow most of that money on cold-calling other hiring managers, as well as looking for online resumes just like mine [warplife.com] that are available free of charge, gratis, no commission required, at but the touch of an "I'm Feeling Lucky Button". If the recruiter does find a resume like mine, they will proceed to spam me mercilessly with such gems as the following, which I received not twenty minutes ago:

            Subject: ASSEMBLER *Referral*

            Hi Michael,

            I currently have a temporary opening for a ASSEMBLER in San Diego, CA.

            Our industry thrives off of great referrals. Who do you know that would be a good fit? We appreciate any help you can provide and we would love to pay you a bonus if your referral is hired.

            Look forward to hearing from you soon!

            Dustin

            ASSEMBLER - Medical Device
            Simply Biotech specializes in recruiting exclusively for San Diego's biotech community. We are currently seeking a Medical Device Assembler for a growing San Diego biotech firm.

            The Assembler will be a hands-on Assembler and will be responsible for assembly, packaging and shipping of products. The selected candidate will:

                    Perform cartridge assembly and subassembly manufacturing processes
                    Adhere to Quality System Regulations and GMP guidelines
                    Ensure documentation is completed accurately and in a timely manner
                    Professional conduct ( effective team member and leader )
                    Perform accurate material inventories

            WUT?

            I am not fucking kidding.

            Because the candidate and the client are contractually forbidden from discussing headhunter commissions with each other, quite frequently those commissions are quite a lot more than the alleged "going rate" of thirty percent. Such was the case with some poor fuck, who reported to alt.computer.consultants.moderated his dismay at discovering that while he was paid what he felt was a reasonable thirty dollars an hour, his agency was billing the client ninety dollars per hour, then keeping the difference of sixty!

            I am quite determined to put the entire, world-wide recruiting industry completely out of work. The way I'm going to do it is based on the method I used to come up with Find A Computer Job In Santa Cruz [warplife.com].

            That is a HUGELY popular page, and has been since 1997. One time a complete stranger mailed me a gift certificate for $100.00, for my favorite restaurant, as that page helped him find a job.

            I realized recently that there are very few recruiting agencies in Santa Cruz, and that the few that are there, such as Armada Software or the former SurfSoft, are quite a lot more ethical than the rest.

            So I now have a placeholder [warplife.com] that I will fill in with every software employer on the whole fucking planet.

            However it is quite obvious I need to develop an automated way of researching the links. I am working on that even as we speak.

            --
            Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:11AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:11AM (#6330) Journal

              I want to see the temporary "services" shut down. I'll give you an additional reason to do so:

              ILLEGAL ALIEN WORKERS are farmed out through the Manpower office here where I live. The staff at Manpower is exclusively Mexican. Mexicans are given preferential treatment in job placement. The company that I work for has employed mostly Mexicans for the past two decades. Manpower actively assists the illegals in working around documentation requirements. My bosses cooperate fully with those efforts, by changing names, SSN, and other personal information for illegal employees.

              Phone calls, snail mail, and emails to INS, then to ICE, have resulted in no action.

              Due to incompetent management, the company has recently gone bankrupt, and the plant has been bought up by an international mega-corporation. The illegals no longer have a home here. Drug testing and strict accountability for documentation has run off about 2/3 of the workforce.

              Funny thing is - those jobs that Americans are to lazy to do? There are Americans doing them today.

              Shut down the temporary services, and one HELL of a lot of illegals will be weeded out of the work force!

              • (Score: 1) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:47AM

                by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:47AM (#6464) Homepage Journal

                It is quite common for recruiter inquiry emails not to ask me if I am a US Citizen or permanent resident, but instead to ask my visa status. So they are just assuming I'm on an H1-B or some other temporary work permit.

                Go have a peek at the slashdot article from this afternoon, about the widespread fraud in india, that is preying on Indian citizens by selling them fraudulent visas.

                After a lot of consideration, I've decided I'm completely cool with outsourcing coding work to India. I should know, I've been hungry, broke and homeless. It just has to suck to be a dalit, but even untouchables can get computer science degrees. More power to 'em.

                But building a software industry in india will ultimately be to america's benefit. Not so bring in an H1-B under fraudulent pretenses, when you could have hired a US citizen.

                My own observation is that H1-Bs are employed not so much to save money, but to enable wage slavery. I have a real good friend, a top quality coder, who is a UK citizen. When he and I worked at the same company, I was treated like royalty, but he was kicked in the teeth on a daily basis. However he was paid the same as I was.

                It's just that he did not have the option of resigning. He would not have been deported exactly, but he would have been obligated to leave the US until he obtained another work permit.

                You could really help a brother out, where you to dig up the links to as many legitimate software employers as you possibly can, then mail them to me at mdcrawford@gmail.com I've been researching them myself. Just tonight I came up with a better way to research them, but it will be a week or two before I can code it up.

                I plan to create something like Find a Computer Job in Santa Cruz [warplife.com], but for the whole fucking planet.

                I observed about a year ago, that recruiting firms have never done very well in santa cruz since I put that page up back in 1997. At one time there were several of them, but now I only know of Armada Software, which is actually quite cool as headhunters go. Very ethical. Most aren't.

                --
                Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Cactus on Monday February 24 2014, @09:44PM

          by Cactus (32) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:44PM (#6212) Journal

          Luckily, there are plenty of options for financial services for (most) people. Unfortunately, there are many services where people do not have the benefit of choice. Broadband internet service is the first thing that comes to mind. Unless you count dial-up as an option many people don't have much choice in a provider.

          janrinok does have a point though. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Nobody needs the Angry Birds expansion #28, and if you agree to the TOS it's your own damned fault. Unless a much larger portion of the general population begins to reject goods/services based on the fine print, companies will keep taking more and more.

          The dollar you spend, (coupled with your personal info, now) is really the only kind of direct vote you have in such matters. Take care how you spend it.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by biff on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM

          by biff (170) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM (#6214)

          It's great while there's a choice, but when this transitions from an overreach by one organization to standard terms across the industry...?

          I thought bandwidth caps were a terrible idea, too. But when one business starts doing this and there's no regulatory pushback, if there's any boost in revenue or perceived reduction in liability there's really nothing stopping this idea from spreading. Unless you've figured out how to get the average consumer to follow a boycott; there are services and products I don't buy out of principle, but like voting the only benefit is the illusion I have some say in the process.

          • (Score: 1) by pjbgravely on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:48AM

            by pjbgravely (1681) <pjbgravelyNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:48AM (#6307) Homepage
            Customer backlash does work sometimes, even against a monopoly. A few years ago my ISP decide to cap DSL to 5 gig a month. People were dumping DSL and going back to dial up because that is what their data rate would be anyway. I guess they lost so many customers they didn't need the cap anymore so they canceled it. So far they haven't brought up the subject again.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:52AM

            by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:52AM (#6322) Homepage Journal

            That is, if I had an account at Bank of America, I could use a Wells Fargo ATM to withdraw cash from my Bank of America account, and there was no charge to me.

            Nowadays, I would pay Wells Fargo as much as three dollars per withdrawal. Quite often BofA would charge me too.

            Automated Teller Machines were ALL free of charge for quite a long time, seeing as how they enabled live, human tellers to quit their jobs of dreary servitude to devote themselves to lives of leisure and creative pursuits.

            But then some bank got the bright idea to charge $1.50 or so to withdraw cash from accounts at other banks. Almost overnight, all the banks followed suit.

            Now it is quite common even for banks to limit the number of withdrawals from their own ATMs. Go over that monthly limit and you start paying fees.

            --
            Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
        • (Score: 1) by ikanreed on Monday February 24 2014, @09:50PM

          by ikanreed (3164) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 24 2014, @09:50PM (#6218) Journal

          There certainly aren't any where you can freely negotiate your terms, which would be the case if respecting choice were an actual consequence of the economic system we have in the US.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday February 24 2014, @10:40PM

          by Thexalon (636) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:40PM (#6249)

          Oligopolies don't work that way, where switching sellers necessarily solves your problem.

          Let's say that Company A does something that hurts consumers. That leaves Company A's competitor B with two options to react to improve their bottom line:
          i. Do the same thing to reap the same benefits.
          ii. Try to pull customers away from Company A by not introducing the identical section.

          Most of the time, B will copy A, for 3 reasons:
          1. Most of Company A's customers won't even notice the change, much less react to it.
          2. The potential profits whatever action Company A took are frequently higher than could be gained by pulling in more customers.
          3. Choosing to compete on this will get Company A's lawyers busy trying to find a way to go after Company B.

          It's far easier for both A and B to simply hurt the third party (consumers) and leave each other alone. Multiply this by, say, 10 competitors, and it's very possible that industries will get steadily more onerous and more painful for consumers to deal with. And if it's an industry with a high enough initial capital cost, then it's extremely difficult for a new competitor to join the industry to take advantage of this situation to build a new customer base - and once it becomes a big player, guess what it does next?

          Cell phone carriers, ISPs (in those rare places with more than one), and airlines are just a few examples of industries where this phenomenon is common.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 2, Informative) by chewbacon on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:58AM

            by chewbacon (1032) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:58AM (#6324)
            Worked when banks tried charging a monthly fee for using debit cards. Was great news for credit unions! I kicked my bank to the curb over it. My wife was a teller at the time and said they were losing accounts left and right over the news where they were trying the idea. All of the banks back pedaled. Lesson they (maybe) learned: people won't buy the bullshit product of they will leave you for a better product.
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:25AM

              by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:25AM (#6336)

              Don't get me wrong: I fully support consumers making choices that get them better deals. My point is that while that is good and necessary, it's not always sufficient.

              For example, banks didn't back down over ATM fees, and as a result they are pretty much industry standard, and there are now ATM companies that make their living from those fees.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday February 24 2014, @10:59PM

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 24 2014, @10:59PM (#6260) Journal

        You don't need to bank with this particular bank, tell them why you are leaving, and then take your money elsewhere.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by LowID on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:24AM

          by LowID (337) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:24AM (#6481)

          What God is that, when the 'elsewhere' bank has the same crappy TOS in place?

          • (Score: 1) by LowID on Wednesday February 26 2014, @12:56PM

            by LowID (337) on Wednesday February 26 2014, @12:56PM (#7260)

            s/God/good/

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday February 24 2014, @09:37PM

      by ikanreed (3164) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 24 2014, @09:37PM (#6208) Journal

      Oh, I'm sorry, you want this basic tool of modern communication? I do hope you like "agreements" created solely by one side of the bargain with no exceptions.

    • (Score: 1) by Wootery on Monday February 24 2014, @10:57PM

      by Wootery (2341) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:57PM (#6258)

      Right. Nothing mega-corps do is bad, because the customer can always use their near-identical competitor's offering (assuming the 'competition' isn't owned by the same parent company), or just opt-out entirely.

      Except, of course, that in the real world you can't.

      You can't get by without a bank.

      Remember, having a large amount of cash is considered suspicious enough that the police can call it drug-money, confiscate it, and make it very difficult for you to get it back.

      You could opt-out of using the Internet, I guess, but that's hardly a defence of these companies.

      Analogy: having the option to leave your country doesn't mean there's no harm in it being totalitarian.

      • (Score: 1) by Acabatag on Monday February 24 2014, @11:04PM

        by Acabatag (2885) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:04PM (#6261)

        True, but I can get by without Bank of America. They bought out the companies administering several of my credit cards, and a few years back when I was unemployed it was very unpleasant owing them any money. I would choose a number of other banks before the. Capital One is another similar outfit. They seem to offer credit to about anybody, but at usurious rates. Fine, but we're allowed to have, and voice our opinions.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:53AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:53AM (#6373)

          > Capital One is another similar outfit. They seem to offer credit to about anybody, but at usurious rates.

          I had a similar bad experience with HSBC. I was carrying revolving debt on several cards, and HSBC kept sending me zero-percent transfer offers. So eventually I took them up on one, and transferred one of my cards to their card for 1 year of 0% APR. Then a couple months later, my electronic payment to them (initiated a week ahead of the due date) got delayed due to a bank holiday, and ended up clearing 1 day late. They IMMEDIATELY charged me a late fee and rescinded my intro APR, charging me 19% on my transferred balance.

          I called them up and asked them to refund the late fee and give me back the intro rate, since it was clearly not my fault the payment was late. They said no. So, I transferred the balance back to my old card, cut up the HSBC card, and told them exactly why they would never get another dime from me.

        • (Score: 1) by sjames on Wednesday February 26 2014, @12:48AM

          by sjames (2882) on Wednesday February 26 2014, @12:48AM (#7036) Journal

          Sure, but then you look around and see they've all made the same move.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday February 24 2014, @11:07PM

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday February 24 2014, @11:07PM (#6262) Journal

        I think what the Mega Corps is doing IS bad.

        So tell them that you don't accept those conditions and take your money elsewhere. You can't get by without a bank - but you can get by without THAT bank.

        With internet in the US it appears to be different from the rest of the world. You have no choice. I'm genuinely sorry for that, but only you, if you live in the US, can change that situation. I have the option of at least 5 ISPs all competing for my money. I'll put it where it best suits me, not some Mega Corp.

        Please remember that this is not a US-specific site. If the banks in Europe tried that they wouldn't last very long.

        • (Score: 1) by Wootery on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:47AM

          by Wootery (2341) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:47AM (#6537)

          You can't get by without a bank - but you can get by without THAT bank.

          Right, but this assumes a level of variation which might not always exist. You can move banks today, but tomorrow when all the banks are doing it, you'll be in a tough spot.

          Please remember that this is not a US-specific site. If the banks in Europe tried that they wouldn't last very long.

          Indeed, probably not. (I'm not American, for what that's worth.)

      • (Score: 1) by captain normal on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:16AM

        by captain normal (2205) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:16AM (#6450)

        There are actually quite a few options. For me the answer was simple. A few years ago when Wells Fargo started to turn into Wachovia after buying them. I started looking at alternatives. I wound up joining a member owned Federal Credit Union. All the same services as the so-called "big banks" and none of the service charges. As a plus by pooling my money with others in my community we make loans where the interest stays in our local community.

        --
        When life isn't going right, go left.
    • (Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:55AM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:55AM (#6323) Journal

      That IS my solution most of the time. Sometimes, you don't have a lot of options, but I still make my voice heard.

      A couple decades ago, I walked into the electric cooperative's office, and filled out the paperwork to have electricity turned on in my name. Among the forms that they wanted filled out, was a half-sheet of paper, with a statement, "I agree never to install a generator on my property." Or words to that effect.

      I scrawled across that paper, "I can't agree to this, because I would then have to sell my truck which has a GENERATOR instead of an ALTERNATOR in it. I could also never own a diesel powered welder."

      You're right - just don't agree to the terms.

    • (Score: 1) by glyph on Tuesday February 25 2014, @11:09AM

      by glyph (245) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @11:09AM (#6541)

      Yes, clearly these one-sided "agreements" are really all the customers fault. The Market will sort all these problems out.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by frojack on Monday February 24 2014, @09:10PM

    by frojack (1554) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:10PM (#6180) Journal

    Bank of Americas cell phone app and Capital Ones new credit card contract have given banks unsettling new abilities. These privileges include the authority to access to your phone microphone and camera or even showing up at your workplace and home unannounced at any time.

    Don't want the app, don't install it. Its fairly useless anyway.

    (Camera access is for deposit by photo capability, which is occasionally useful, but a 46 cent stamp does the same thing.)

    As for the showing up unannounced, collection agents have ALWAYS had this ability. If You pay your credit card bills, they haven't got time to stop by and chitchat. If you skip out on your credit card debt, you can rest assured they will come see you sooner or later. You have to be served your subpoena in person. It the law.

    John McAfee has pretty well lost all credibility in my eyes.

    --
    No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by greenfruitsalad on Monday February 24 2014, @09:14PM

      by greenfruitsalad (342) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:14PM (#6186)

      i've found that almost every android app does this nowadays. first few versions require a few privileges and then with every new update more and more permissions are required. if i didn't have cyanogenmod's tool to limit permissions, i'd probably have to uninstall 70% of my apps.

      • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM

        by frojack (1554) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM (#6216) Journal

        Agreed.

        Didn't mean to suggest this wasn't a real problem, (and its not just limited to Android).

        Just this article, taking a bit from here, mixing in a bit from there, stirring in a bit of conspiracy theory, and trying to make more of it than it is.

        Google made a (probably mistaken) preliminary release of an API to manage permissions on a much more granular level, and they will probably be forced into doing a full release of these after the fact permission denial tools. It can't come too soon if you ask me.

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Cactus on Monday February 24 2014, @09:52PM

        by Cactus (32) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:52PM (#6220) Journal

        So many people don't even look at the permissions. If something tries to add permissions on my Android device that I don't like, I won't update it. As it keeps pestering me about updates I end up having to question how much I really care about the app being there. A lot of things get uninstalled. No, sorry, your to-do list app does not need to access my full contact list.
        Luckily there are firewalls and permission-blockers available for rooted devices, too.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @10:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 24 2014, @10:14PM (#6241)

      (Camera access is for deposit by photo capability, which is occasionally useful, but a 46 cent stamp does the same thing.)

      49 cents. U.S. postage went up again.

    • (Score: 2) by TrumpetPower! on Monday February 24 2014, @11:17PM

      by TrumpetPower! (590) <ben@trumpetpower.com> on Monday February 24 2014, @11:17PM (#6269) Homepage

      (Camera access is for deposit by photo capability, which is occasionally useful, but a 46 cent stamp does the same thing.)

      ...and the microphone? Why on Earth would a mobile banking application need access to the microphone? Are they going to bundle a VoIP client? On a phone? Really?

      b&

      --
      All but God can prove this sentence true.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by frojack on Monday February 24 2014, @11:49PM

        by frojack (1554) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:49PM (#6287) Journal

        Just once in a while you have to take things claimed in an article with a grain of salt. Especially when John McAfee is involved.

        The actual permissions from the Bank of America app are as follow:
        This app has access to these permissions:
        Your location
        precise location (GPS and network-based)
        Network communication
        full network access
        view network connections
        view Wi-Fi connections
        receive data from Internet
        Phone calls
        read phone status and identity
        Camera
        take pictures and videos
        Affects battery
        prevent device from sleeping

        As you can see, these are pretty much stock stuff, It has to know when a call comes in so that it can get out of the way, it needs the camera to deposit checks (and video is combined with camera access), it needs your location to find branches near you, and it needs the network to access your account.

        The Capital One app is roughly the same.

        Really, sometimes people exaggerate, and McAfee has made a living at it.

         

        --
        No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:54PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:54PM (#6879)

      maybe as 'postage due'... 1st class stamp is 49 cents since Jan. 26, 2014.

      Mmmm... pedantics.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Monday February 24 2014, @09:15PM

    by maxwell demon (1608) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:15PM (#6189) Journal

    Not everything they may write in their TOS is necessarily legal, and they certainly will not be able to enforce the illegal parts. The bad thing is, unless you're a lawyer, you cannot tell for sure where the legality ends (and I'm not even sure a lawyer could tell without first carefully checking the relevant laws).

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by jcd on Monday February 24 2014, @09:17PM

      by jcd (883) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:17PM (#6190)

      This is the problem. But in addition, they get to do what they want. Court can only try to remedy abuse of power, not really prevent it. Do first, apologize later is pretty much how these things operate.

      --
      "What good's an honest soldier if he can be ordered to behave like a terrorist?"
    • (Score: 1) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:52AM

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:52AM (#6465) Homepage Journal

      -ornia, but they are perfectly legal.

      That is, if your new employer requires a noncompete as a condition of your employment, they are actually free to do so.

      It is completely up to you to figure out that that particular clause of the contract you just signed, is unenforceable.

      If you should later go work for a competitor, your former employer won't sue you. They'll just drop a friendly dime to your new boss to point out your noncompete.

      If your new boss does not already know about your noncompete, you've lost your job, you may never find out the real reason. "I'm sorry jim, but you are ten nanoseconds late to this morning's standup. Here's ten grand in hush money."

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by dmc on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM

    by dmc (188) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:46PM (#6215)

    The Right To Serve from your residence is the right to be free of unnecessary middlemen you have to trust.

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/google-fiber -continues-awful-isp-tradition-banning-servers [eff.org]

    http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=168&cid=317 1 [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 1) by GungnirSniper on Monday February 24 2014, @09:56PM

    by GungnirSniper (1671) on Monday February 24 2014, @09:56PM (#6227) Journal

    Car insurance companies are pushing mobile apps, and combined with GPS functionality, can show you spend time in high-crime areas, or regularly speed. So if you have given them approval, do they need an updated EULA to use this to raise your rates?

  • (Score: 1) by r00t on Monday February 24 2014, @10:02PM

    by r00t (1349) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:02PM (#6232)

    Require a tl;dr in ever TOS/EULA ?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Monday February 24 2014, @10:27PM

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:27PM (#6244) Journal

      The universal TOS/EULA tl;dr: We may do everything, you may do almost nothing. We can even change the conditions whenever we want, while you can't.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 1) by No Respect on Monday February 24 2014, @11:23PM

        by No Respect (991) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:23PM (#6274)

        That goes for more than just TOS/EULA. Where I live our apartment lease is about 20 pages long and, quite literally, the owner's/manager's responsibilities are all contained in one single short paragraph. Everything else is describing in minute detail what the tenant can and cannot do.

      • (Score: 1) by Ezber Bozmak on Monday February 24 2014, @11:48PM

        by Ezber Bozmak (764) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:48PM (#6286)

        The universal TOS/EULA tl;dr: We may do everything, you may do almost nothing. We can even change the conditions whenever we want, while you can't.

        Yet another case where Russia has more equality than the US. [minyanville.com]

    • (Score: 1) by tangomargarine on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:54PM

      by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:54PM (#6732)

      I just assume that they all say, "You agree to be our bitch in perpetuity. We will contact you at the appropriate time with instructions when to bend over."

      I mean really, with "we can change these at any time," how can you read it any differently?

      --
      "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
  • (Score: 2) by Barrabas on Monday February 24 2014, @10:10PM

    by Barrabas (22) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:10PM (#6236) Journal

    Here's my suggested EULA/TOS for Soylent News:

    1) We are not responsible for anything you do
    2) Anything you write or do here which is in the public eye(*) is licensed as a Free Cultural Work [creativecommons.org].
    3) We will ban your ass if we damn well feel like it, so behave!

    (*)Specifically, your login information and anything that you choose to keep private (such as your journal) remains private. Everything else is open source.

    • (Score: 2) by dmc on Monday February 24 2014, @11:27PM

      by dmc (188) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:27PM (#6278)

      On (2) I would prefer to keep the existing

      "The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way."

      instead of the suggested

      "You can edit, remix, and transform a work under a free culture license however you want, and share those remixed copies as freely as the original. For example, you can build upon the original by making translations, mashups, fanfiction, and any other kind of derivative work you want, and share those remixed works freely, or even sell them. (This is why ND-licensed work isn't considered a Free Cultural Work.)

      I haven't spent a lot of time considering the legal language there, but I worry someone could take a several paragraph commentary, change 2 or 3 words completely changing the meaning, and pass it off as their own (even with no such transferrence of freedom by license on their copy).

      I think if it must be changed from slashdot's traditional "comments owned by poster", then I'd prefer something like the CC that involves attribution or the like. Dunno, further thoughts and debate invited...

  • (Score: 1) by technopoptart on Monday February 24 2014, @10:44PM

    by technopoptart (1746) <{james} {at} {theorangecrush.co}> on Monday February 24 2014, @10:44PM (#6250)

    Now that is just batshit crazy. Aside from conflicting with existing federal and state laws, I would love to see some AG action on this.

  • (Score: 1) by Random2 on Monday February 24 2014, @10:48PM

    by Random2 (669) on Monday February 24 2014, @10:48PM (#6254)

    even showing up at your workplace and home unannounced at any time.

    Is there honestly a non-scumbag reason for this? Is debt collection really this much of a problem that they need to include something this... obscene in their TOS?

    Also:

    to turn on your camera and microphone without telling you at any time

    What use could they possibly have for this? 'account reminders' for balances and such? I'm really trying to give the benefit of the doubt before coming to a conclusion here...

    --
    If only I registered 3 users earlier....
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by MozeeToby on Monday February 24 2014, @11:09PM

      by MozeeToby (1118) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:09PM (#6265)

      There's really no need for this in their TOS because they already have that right. Debt collectors can in fact show up at your house. It's just that no one does because it's quite expensive for them to do so.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday February 24 2014, @10:53PM

    by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday February 24 2014, @10:53PM (#6256) Homepage Journal

    I got the news a while back that I can no longer open a bank account. I speculate that this is due to a notebook computer being stolen from a mental health clinic, that contained the Social Security Numbers of all us patients. I had not known that the clinic had my SSN; there was no damn good reason for them to, but there it is.

    Now there is a way I could clear this all up, but it would be a huge PITA. IMHO it should have been sufficient just to tell the bank about the stolen notebook, but no.

    So I made the decision that I would just pay cash for everything.

    My only real gripe is that I am a consultant, I often work remote, so I have to request that clients pay me either with a cashier's check, a money order or a check drawn on a national bank.

    But otherwise I'm cool paying cash.

    Yeah I'll never even apply for a mortgage ever again, but after quite a lot of reflection, I decided I was a lot happier just renting a place that was only as big as I needed. I used to, uh, "own" quite a nice house on some nice wooded land. I proceeded to underbid a contract, with the result that I came within five days of foreclosure. Never Again.

    I'm handy with tools, I know about auto repair, so I know how to buy a used car that is just as good as a new car. If one pays about four grand, one can conceivably pay cash rather then getting an auto loan, then with proper maintenance that car will last as long as a new car would.

    They might build a new toll bridge on Interstate 5 over the Columbia River via Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, Washington. If they do the plan is to use prepaid transponders for the toll. One would then need a bank account. One could pay cash but then the cash toll is planned to be almost twice as much as the prepaid transponder toll.

    I have at times toyed with the idea of attending law school. I have successfully represented myself Pro Per in court - that is, as my own counsel, without anyone's assistance at all. The more common Pro Se, one acts as one's own counsel, but with the assistance of a legal adviser who is often but does not have to be a bar-admitted attorney.

    So if I ever have to pay more in cash than someone else paid with a transponder, I would sue in federal court, over the bridge failing to honor the "legal tender for all debts public and private" that is written on all American banknotes.

    I can be a real dickhead about that. I'd sue the bridge authority for two and a half bucks, then tie them up in court, what with all the interloculatory appeals, for decades.

    --
    Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 1) by Ezber Bozmak on Monday February 24 2014, @11:42PM

      by Ezber Bozmak (764) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:42PM (#6282)

      So if I ever have to pay more in cash than someone else paid with a transponder, I would sue in federal court, over the bridge failing to honor the "legal tender for all debts public and private" that is written on all American banknotes.

      You'd lose. There is no reason they can't offer a discount for a particular form of payment - the debt is the whole amount. You aren't getting a surcharge for paying cash, they are getting a discount for paying with a transponder.

      • (Score: 1) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:39AM

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:39AM (#6320) Homepage Journal

        You can appeal anything where the trial judge can be reasonably said to have made a mistake.

        Just say "I object" to any damnfool thing. If the judge overrules your objection, then you can argue in your appeal that he should not have.

        If I file an appeal, even if there is never a hearing, the bridge authority would still have to answer my complaint. Should they fail to do so I would win by default.

        If the appeals court won't take my case, I'm not sure but maybe I could request an "En Banc" opinion, that is a hearing before all the judges of - in this case - the ninth circuit court of federal appeals in san francisco, and then the supreme court.

        Now if I lose in the end, the court might require me to pay the bridge authority's legal fees. I'm OK with that. Google for "uncollectable".

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
    • (Score: 1) by gottabeme on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:58PM

      by gottabeme (1531) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:58PM (#6739)

      You can't ever open any bank account anywhere?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27 2014, @09:34AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 27 2014, @09:34AM (#7864)

      I don't want to limit your use of cash but if you ever find you have too much to feel safe etc. feel free to open a bank account in Switzerland or Norway (I'd choose Norway, more of a squeaky clean feel). Choose something small like a cooperative bank, plenty of foreigners do it and at least in Norway you're 100% protected against the bank for up to about 500.000NOK (which is roughly 100.000USD) even if the EU gets their way (Norway is not an EU member) and at least twice as much (depending on exchange rates) if they don't.

      Maybe something to explore.

  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Boxzy on Monday February 24 2014, @11:07PM

    by Boxzy (742) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:07PM (#6263) Journal

    These days, if they wear a shirt and tie and sit on the other side of a desk from you... Probably an enemy.

    --
    Go green, Go Soylent.
  • (Score: 1) by tsqr on Monday February 24 2014, @11:21PM

    by tsqr (1663) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:21PM (#6273)

    It's called quitting the app when you're not using it. You might also notice that your phone performs better when it doesn't have every app you ever installed running in the background.

    Aside from that, quoting John McAfee? My credulity is stretched to the point of transparency. And calling him "founder of the popular McAfee computer security programs"? The last time McAfee anti-virus was actually popular was before cellphones became popular with the masses.

    Why not just publish the TOS in question so we can judge for ourselves?

    • (Score: 2) by everdred on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:02AM

      by everdred (110) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:02AM (#6296) Journal

      That isn't always possible. Apps can start themselves when the system starts, when network connectivity changes, when a button is pressed, when you plug in headphones, etc.

      If you're using Android, Autostarts [google.com] lets you get a handle on this.

  • (Score: 1) by mi on Monday February 24 2014, @11:55PM

    by mi (2538) on Monday February 24 2014, @11:55PM (#6290)

    Show up uninvited at your home

    Even if some stuffed suit does show up, there is nothing they can do, if you don't want to talk to them.

    Police, meanwhile, can ram your front door in a second after whispering "Police" and shoot your dog [policestateusa.com] for "being threatening".

    A corporation may have the information about you, but, at worst, it will use it to market crap to you. Government agencies, on the other hand, may carefully "leak" the information to your political opponents [washingtonpost.com]. And whereas you have some control over what you tell a corporation, submitting information to government is usually mandatory.

    As the serfs vote themselves more and more "free" stuff from the government, they expand the government's power over everybody including themselves...

    --
    Somewhere in Chicago a community is missing its organizer
  • (Score: 2) by TheloniousToady on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:35AM

    by TheloniousToady (820) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:35AM (#6304)

    I recently had the experience of posting some W2 data to the Social Security Administration's website. The process begins with having to accept the terms of service for the site. I didn't have any choice but to accept the terms, except that I could have submitted it via mail (I assume.) It kindda makes you wonder why they bother with these things. It's not like anybody's gonna sue the US government for mishandling W2 data.

  • (Score: 1) by computersareevil on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:01AM

    by computersareevil (749) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:01AM (#6310)

    After years and years of reading Hack a Day every day, I had to leave them when they posted an abusive TOS [hackaday.com] at the behest of their (new) corporate masters. I know nothing good would come of the founder selling-out to Supply Frame. An article [hackaday.com] on the new terms got 5 times as many comments as most articles on the site.

    Oh, and Fuck Beta!

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by lennier on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:26AM

    by lennier (2199) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:26AM (#6316)

    Yeah, um. All I can say is, there's a reason why Richard Stallman set up the Free Software Foundation in 1985, and why there's an FSF Freedom Zero [fsfe.org]. And it's not because the 1980s were a paradise of software terms-of-service openness and love.

    But it's cute that today's kids are rediscovering how abusive TOSes can be, after a generation of taking an open-connectivity Web for granted and then abandoning it for locked in 'apps'. Is it too grumpy-old-man of me to remind everyone that when TCP/IP and SMTP were starting to spread in the 1990s, the existing Online Service players fought openness tooth and nail [google.co.nz]? Yeah, it probably is.

    Next: this UNIX thing - think it'll ever spread beyond Bell Labs? Never mind I'm sure there'll be no interference from corporate headquarters if it catches on. [wikipedia.org]

    --
    Delenda est Beta
    • (Score: 1) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:58AM

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:58AM (#6471) Homepage Journal

      It turns out that the NSA is heavily into linux, and is quite good about contributing patches back upstream.

      Using software for anything you damn well please, means that freedom zero provides the freedom to commit gross human rights violations.

      I would be completely unsurprised were I to learn that North Korea is heavily into Open Source as well as Free Software.

      (They're different things, kids. Learn to tell the difference.)

      --
      Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 1) by lennier on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:31PM

        by lennier (2199) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:31PM (#6909)

        "It turns out that the NSA is heavily into linux, and is quite good about contributing patches back upstream."

        Yep, they probably breathe oxygen and use the English language as well.

        "Using software for anything you damn well please, means that freedom zero provides the freedom to commit gross human rights violations."

        Yes. But that is the point of freedom: that people can do (arbitrary bad things) and (doing that bad thing) is the wrong thing, not (using software) to do it).

        The NSA implements the reverse logic and says "the Internet/your cellphone should not be used to commit (arbitrary bad thing) therefore we will tag and trace every packet sent and reserve the right to take pictures with your cellphone to make sure that the Evil Bit is not enabled". But that seems more problematic in the long run than saying "this is a technology, use it for what you want".

        I'm not a huge fan of total libertarianism. I believe there is a place for government. But software and communication technology seems to be one of those awkward natural monopolies where it works best to either have zero regulation, or 100% totalitarianism, and I'd rather not have the totalitarianism.

        Where tracing and enforcement needs to happen, I'd rather it not be baked into the fundamental core software we can't escape.

        --
        Delenda est Beta
    • (Score: 2) by Open4D on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:10PM

      by Open4D (371) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:10PM (#6645) Journal

      ... when TCP/IP and SMTP were starting to spread in the 1990s, the existing Online Service players fought openness tooth and nail [google.co.nz] ...

      For me, the linked page says "You have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book." I'm accessing it from Europe.

      • (Score: 1) by lennier on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:44PM

        by lennier (2199) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:44PM (#6924)

        Ah, sorry about that. It was a random Google books link that seemed to summarise the 1980s online services world: the relevant paragraphs were:

        The other major development of the 1980s was the rise of online services, beginning with simple text terminals that business could use to search expensive proprietary databases of legal, medical, technical, financial and marketing information. Despite crude technology, by the late 1980s online services had become a $10 billion industry. Then, with the spread of home computers in the late 1980s and early 1990s, consumer online services became available, through CompuServe (the oldest vendor), AOL, Prodigy, and the early versions of MSN, among others. Both the business and consumer online services relied on slow modem connections between personal computers and their host services.

        The early online services industry was based on the traditional mainframe/minicomputer model, consisting of mutually incompatible, closed-architecture systems in which each vendor provided its own proprietary software and user interfaces. These services neither communicated with each other nor permitted independent (unaffiliated) content providers to transmit information to each other or to end-users. Thus, for example, a CompuServe subscriber could not send e-mail to a Prodigy subscriber, and the software required to use CompuServe (or Prodigy, or America Online, or Sierra Online, or Lockheed's Dialog System) could not be used to view or use any of the other services. Similarly, the process of developing content was specific to each service. All of these services used their own closed, mutually incompatible development tools and server software.

        (Not sure about 'Sierra Online'. That was Ken and Roberta Williams' game company, though they probably also ran a BBS like all tech companies of the era did; I doubt it was a major online service though.)

        --
        Delenda est Beta
        • (Score: 1) by Open4D on Wednesday February 26 2014, @03:12PM

          by Open4D (371) on Wednesday February 26 2014, @03:12PM (#7323) Journal

          I admit I was secretly hoping for some juicy story about legal attacks (perhaps using patents) on the new interoperable technologies. Or corporate lobbying of politicians on the matter.

          But anyway, thanks for the extract.

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by fumigato on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:10AM

    by fumigato (3250) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:10AM (#6329)

    I am disappointed no one has made a 'totalitarian tool' joke.

  • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by TGV on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:58AM

    by TGV (2838) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:58AM (#6473)

    I do wish people would stop writing fascism whenever they find use of power they don't like. I, too, despise attempts to extend power via EULAs, but it is not fascism. Calling it like that is incompetent writing, probably fed by a feeling of powerlessness and the need to be heard, but it doesn't help the cause. The only thing it does is make Hitler look like a banker.

    • (Score: 2) by Open4D on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:24PM

      by Open4D (371) on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:24PM (#6657) Journal

      Agreed. I really dislike dodgy TOSs, EULAs, etc.. But I'm fairly sure they are not fascism.

      John McAfee gets some stick above for what he said, but the fascism comments seem to be the responsibility of the article's author Thom Hartmann.

      I've never heard of Alternet but my first impression was pretty bad. Poor article. Several floating popups. And in Firefox, that particular page seem to be able to disable all keyboard input, like PgUp and Ctrl-F.

  • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:22AM

    by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:22AM (#6529) Journal

    I appear to have angered some people by my initial post which was, I confess, blunt.

    How about another approach? The bank wants to have control over the mobile (cell) phone. OK, accept that - but only on the following conditions: They pay all or part of the cost of the telephone, they are equally responsible for any data that appears on the device (pornography etc), they pay a proportion of the cost of data transfers each month, and if you are arrested and the device confiscated by LE, then both you and the bank have to agree to the police inspecting the device. They cannot have control but no responsibility.

    Alternatively, they could just provide you with a phone at the bank's expense and they can then control it as much as they wish.

    Its YOUR phone, YOU pay for it, tell them to get on with running a bank and to leave you alone, while you will take care of those things that you are responsible for.