The New York Times is running a Room for Debate on whether all children should be taught to code. Opinions range from "Teach it as soon as possible" to "It's a scam".
Despite the rapid spread of coding instruction in grade schools, there is some concern that creative thinking and other important social and creative skills could be compromised by a growing focus on technology, particularly among younger students. Should coding be part of the elementary school curriculum?
I'm curious what Soylentils think about this: Is teaching kids coding in elementary school a good idea?
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(Score: 4, Insightful) by Horse With Stripes on Wednesday May 14 2014, @12:19PM
Not every one is a "coder", nor a plumper, craftsman, dancer, performer, musician, teacher, athlete, etc, etc, etc.
What we should be teaching each and every child is how to think and problem solving. Critical thinking, and working through problems & processes, will teach anymore more than just one skill in one niche.
Teach a child to think, and they will think for the rest of their lives.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday May 14 2014, @12:55PM
The way I see it, programming is much more than just bashing out lines of code, it's also about analysing a problem, solving that problem, and then thinking though how to implement a solution. That's an ability with far more uses and wider application than pure coding, and that is something that is worth teaching far more than the ability to crank out code, and that's where the real focus ought to be. Coding ought to be a big part of it but, as you note, while not everyone is cut out to be a coder they should still be able to benefit from even a little improvement in the analytic aspects.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1) by Oligonicella on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:09PM
"working through problems & processes" is a part of every skilled profession, not just programming.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:36PM
Well, I'd think a skilled driver doesn't have to work through problems and processes while driving.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @12:41AM
I think about how traffic is moving, where I want to be in order to take advantage of it, what alternate routes might be best and when I'm stuck at a standstill, I think about the possible improvements that could be made in engineering different road systems and car-to-car missiles.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:43PM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1) by Oligonicella on Wednesday May 14 2014, @04:40PM
And, as with engineering, programming can come in later. Concepts of logic and design aren't restricted to programming. "Early on" is tricky. The frontal lobes of the brain aren't fully developed until around seven. People here typically have an understandable bias towards programming, but it's not an end all.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @12:51AM
My mother learned to program in Fortran and with punch cards. We didn't have a home computer when I was young. What I did have was someone who nurtured my ability to think analytically. I loved the games of 20 questions. I remember how I reacted to the story of a bird who put pebbles in a jar of water to get the level to rise to drinking level.
I didn't realize how much I loved learning to think. Programming happened later but it wouldn't have happened without the teaching I received. And you're thinking, how fortunate my mother had a teaching spirit, she should have been a teacher. She was.
(Score: 2) by DECbot on Wednesday May 14 2014, @10:03PM
I see a problem with the teaching methods often used in the public schools being applied to programming. The teachers selected for this position in many campuses will not have expertise and likely only credit students who solve the problem in the manner described by the teacher's solution manual. The amount of deviation will be deducted from your score. The end result, the students parrot the teacher's example and return the answer from memory as opposed to thinking and creating an original answer.
tl;dr Standard teaching methods don't encourage critical thinking. Why should using standard teaching methods on programming create a different result?
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:02PM
Let's call it for what is -- this big push to teach kids computer science and programming is heralded by assholes like Zuckerburg whose companies directly benefit from being able do drive down wages with such a high supply for the existing demand.
They want to have their cake and eat it too -- they want a large pool of cheap and skilled labor, but without the hassles to get H1-B visas or deal with offshore hassles. As an added bonus, they could tout that they're "hiring American" and "stimulating the economy" while helping gut the middle-class.
As for the actual benefit of teaching it to kids? Everybody here's already said it best -- show it to them and let them take their own interest (or not) to it.
(Score: 2) by metamonkey on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:42PM
That is exactly it. The elites have noticed that there's a middle class job in which one can expect upper middle class pay in which corporations must take some concern as to the job satisfaction of the workers as they are easily employable elsewhere. So they respond with H1B visas to import cheap workers, wage-fixing collusion, and an effort to swamp the field with new debt-ridden graduates so they can throw away the carrots and get back to using the sticks.
They have no interest in well-rounded kids, problem solving skills or any of that crap. Their interest is cheap, cowed labor.
Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
(Score: 1) by hoochiecoochieman on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:44PM
According to my experience, only a small group of people can be decent programmers, or computer engineers.
This will never change. Even if you teach every person on Earth to write code, what you'll be stuck with is billions of terrible programmers.
During my college years, I witnessed what happened to my colleagues who weren't geeks (they were only there for hope of getting a good job): They lingered there, failing every class year after year. All of them quit sooner or later and chose other careers. Normally completely unrelated to computer engineering.
Most people I know tell me I'm crazy for being in software development. Even people who have studied with me in college have abandoned engineering for management or sales positions. They say they didn't have the patience to develop software.
Mind you, this is not being a snob. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, just different than most. I couldn't have a job nursing children or old people, for example. After a few weeks I'd jump off a bridge. When my kids' teachers tell me I have a hard job, I tell them my job is extremely easy compared to theirs. I truly admire these people.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @01:02AM
It's hard to say who can or can't be a programmer if most people never get the education they need at the early age required. I had a job as a nursing assistant taking care of old people. It was one of the hardest and most rewarding jobs I've ever held. Today I write programs. I am good at my job now and I was good at my job then.
No, of course not everyone has the aptitudes I do, but many do. Giving them the early edge they need to develop those aptitudes where they can, shouldn't be something we avoid. If you teach every person on Earth to think analytically, rather than writing code, you'll have billions of thinkers, and even if they aren't programmers they will build a better society.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 15 2014, @12:10AM
Bill Gates has been pushing for more H1-Bs for years in order to reduce Microsoft's costs and it seems these days they are also pushing this same agenda. Start teaching programming skills early in the US and in other countries. Of course now Gates hides behind the Gates Foundation and says "...look at all the good things we're doing, we're teaching children and giving them skills"
Forcing kids into programming too early may have the opposite affect, if they think it is too hard or they don't like it they may be turned off for life.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by MozeeToby on Wednesday May 14 2014, @03:04PM
Perhaps, but it would do the world a lot of good if most people could fix a leaky faucet, fix a drawer that falls off the rail, not be uncomfortable just stepping foot on a dance floor, give a presentation, hum a few bars, explain a complex subject that they know about, understand the basic rules of common sports, etc, etc, etc,.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @04:50PM
Then let's teach them all of those things very early in school. Programming is harder than the rest so it can come last. Auto mechanics is important, as is first aide. Those should be added to the list too. Fuck numbers and letters, let's get them started on the vocational trail right out of the gate.
(Score: 1) by MozeeToby on Wednesday May 14 2014, @05:28PM
With the single exception of plumbing, I had every single one of those topics and more at some point in school; including dance, woodworking, music, small engine repair, cooking, programming, public speaking, and more. With the exception of programming and small engines they were standard parts of the curriculum in my school district, virtually everyone had the same courses. Somehow we still had time to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic (and for that matter introductory calculus), not to mention English, Spanish as a second language, all the standard science courses, etc, etc.
(Score: 1) by slartibartfastatp on Wednesday May 14 2014, @08:19PM
I beg to differ; programming is as useful as math, and should be a tool that everybody, including musicians and plumpers, should grasp. I'm no historician, geographer, or artist, but I had several classes on that and though that it contributed a lot in my formation.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @01:09AM
Agreed. I program, but what I really do is think through how to create solutions to problems.
I don't know what the most useful classes I've taken were but advanced art history and public speaking were among them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @12:40PM
I think teaching the kids how to do basic arithmetic is more valuable. Throw in some basic Boolean algebra (it being the digital age and all). Though I do remember quite well the time when a parent of one of the kids in my class (I must have been 9 years old or so) who worked at the (then state owned) telecom provider set up a working telephone exchange in one of the rooms. We could actually call each other and watch the exchange operate. And I could hold some of the PCB's in my hands and get explanations about what was what. This was quite impressive and I guess it did (at least partly) lead me to study telecommunications in addition to analog electronics later (in which I was already interested).
So what I think is that it is important to make the kids familiar with some of today's technology in a fun way and also provide support for those of them that want to know more. Of course not all kids will be interested, but for those who are it's a great stimulus.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 15 2014, @12:56AM
I'd put coding somewhere near the intro to Geometry and Proofs class... coding is procedural like a proof, and a great way to exercise algebra and trig skills.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by GlennC on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:04PM
As a parent whose kids are now in Intermediate school, my experience has been that Elementary school has strayed from its purpose.
To me, the purpose of Elementary school is to teach the basics...literacy, numeracy, and basic logic.
I had to teach both of my kids the basics of what is now known as "old-school" multiplication and division, for which their Intermediate school math teachers thanked me.
Once the kids have learned and mastered the basics, I have no problem with offering coding classes to those who are interested.
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:38PM
So what does "new-school" multiplication and division look like?
(Score: 1) by meisterister on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:49PM
I honestly don't know, but I think that this might be fitting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wHDn8LDks8/ [youtube.com]
(Tom Lehrer's New Math song)
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 2) by GlennC on Wednesday May 14 2014, @04:41PM
Here is an example of a third-grade math test:- test.html [basic-mathematics.com]
http://www.basic-mathematics.com/third-grade-math
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by umafuckitt on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:16PM
I think an important goal is to convey to people/kids that they can learn to code if they need or want to. Not being scared of it and knowing where to start is useful knowledge. This can be conveyed a number of ways, but I think the best is to teach things that are useful. Perhaps teaching, say, Python with no particular goal in mind is a waste of time for most students. However, teaching kids HTML and CSS might be more helpful. Making a website is something I suspect a lot of kids would want to do. Through doing it they learn the importance of typing in the mark-up correctly and the importance of learning syntax.
Another useful coding skill is teaching kids to graph and analyse data from school science projects using, say, R or Octave. I remember spending hours in school in the mid 90s drawing graphs on paper and extracting information from them. Even then this was a dead skill. There's lots of useful, practical, skills that can be taught in the context of representing data using a computer. This includes how to interpret graphs, how to convey information, how to manipulate data using code, etc.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:22PM
Offering courses in ICT that give kids an understanding of what it's all about - on the same level as the basic science courses - would be an excellent idea. ICT-literacy has become nearly as important as numeracy - anyone without basic competency is seriously handicapped in daily life.
Such courses would certainly touch on coding, but also on networking, on security, on privacy - on all the topics that every person in a technological society should be acquainted with.
Editorial comment:
TFA is in the US, where incompetent teachers cannot be fired [huffingtonpost.com]. Figuring out where to put technology courses in the curriculum is the least of their problems. They need to get the federal government out of education, prohibit unions for public employees, and return full control of individual schools to their local districts. Then it might make sense to start talking about the curriculum...
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:26PM
"TFA is in the US, where incompetent teachers cannot be fired"
Actually not true. Its a dog whistle, and/or a cultural belief that isn't really true (like we all know who Santa Claus is, but (spoiler alert)).
The way it really works is we produce about twice as many grads as we need for replacement. The hiring committees are not totally incompetent so "most" working teachers are already above median. The bottom half or so end up bartenders, day care workers, retail clerks, waitresses, HR, sales, marketing, whatever. Of the above median who are actually hired, they're intentionally mismanaged to burn them out / repel them from the field, so the average tenure in the field nationwide is like 10 years. Also its traditional to blame the front line teachers for decisions made by management, which is fairly comical. Anyway even if you have a bad teacher from the upper half of all teachers graduated, you'll only be stuck with them for a couple years on average.
As a political football you'll find news releases from political parties scour a 300+ million person country to find one to maybe four anecdotal examples of incompetence, then start painting with a broad brush, mostly to get lower salaries or take away benefits. This is what happens when one side has total control / ownership of the press.
Its extremely popular in the USA, but unusual outside the USA, which leads some to the tremendously inaccurate conclusion that "we can't fire teachers in the USA" or "USA teachers are incompetent" or whatever ridiculousness. It doesn't actually mean anything.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:28PM
The ten-year average is a bit misleading. We had internal studies in the school system where I worked for a few years; they pointed to two burn-out thresholds at three and seven years. A lot of teachers washed out by the three-year mark, and the mismanagement you mention was the major factor (the teachers more often complained about administrative behavior than about student behavior). A few teachers with abnormal patience made it past seven years, and it's those long-timers who bring the average up to ten years. The median length, however, was in the three-to-seven year range, and a lot of the good teachers left by the seventh year to go back to grad school or find a new career in the private sector (real estate was a big draw back in the early 2000's).
On the other hand, the mismanagement wasn't intentional. It was incompetent. Most of our administrators were drawn from the ranks of special education and physical education teachers, with little to no academic background. They had no idea of what should be going on in a classroom or what learning looked like, so they couldn't actually help the teachers except by suspending kids, which was pretty much the only sanction for behavior issues in the system anyway. We ended up, frankly, with the bright teachers being managed by the slow ones. It was like having a software company run by the janitors, whose only means of motivating employees was to create adversarial relations with the clients.
(Score: 2) by bucc5062 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:26PM
A reminder about betteridge's law? Perhaps editors can tape a piece of paper to their monitor that says "Is the title a question? If so then change it".
My viewpoint, no and hell no. How about we teach them to think first. To become critical thinkers before we try to make them code monkeys. There is little to know value in force feeding them a coding language in elementary school unless they ask. Even then I'd not teach "programming" in a formal language, but maybe just the concepts, the elements then have them go and play with those ideas.
The more things change, the more they look the same
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday May 14 2014, @01:38PM
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by bucc5062 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:03PM
Agreed. When was was teaching programming within a corporate environment, one of my classes was an "intro" type class. The first part was to show students how prevalent "programming" was in our lives. Using a very basic statement "describe how to open the door" I could begin to break down actions into parts. What was a statement, what was a loop, what was a condition. How can I store something for later use, and so on.
From there we then would write "programs" to perform simple tasks, using a form of pseudo code. After that, teaching the specific language was much easier. I could see teaching children the concepts of programming, and by extension problem solving, in a similar manner. Get them away from a keyboard and screen. Make it a game to play where they "program" another child (computer) to do something. Give them a program that does not work right (has a bug) and allow them the ability to "fix it". All of that could be done without computers or even a class room. Do that in elementary level education and by the time they get to even Jr High they would be able to take on any language. Despite the common viewpoint, children are pretty sharp when learning is educational and fun.
The more things change, the more they look the same
(Score: 2) by n1 on Thursday May 15 2014, @04:01AM
I understand your point and I try to avoid that kind of thing, I have referenced betteridge's law in dept titles before. However I don't think this question qualifies, it is not twisting the conclusion of a study or some research to posit an unsubstantiated theory. It's asking for opinions on something subjective.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:02PM
All kids should get their feet wet in programming, metalworking, woodworking, politics, engineering, business management, and a ton of other professional skills. How is one to choose a path without knowing what it's like?
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 1) by SecurityGuy on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:02PM
Coding is a specialized skill. Sure, just about anybody can whip up a Hello World, or do a little scripting with some teaching, but actual proficiency takes a long time for most people. It's also not going to be useful for most people. What are these legions of coders supposed to code? I'd argue that bajillions of badly written apps or scripts isn't going to help anyone, it's just going to muddy the waters for people looking for actual useful software.
Before we waste a ton of time teaching people to code, we should teach them basic financial literacy, which many people don't have. Teach people how to fix their cars or their houses. Of all the things we should teach everyone, coding is really not on the top of the list.
(Score: 1) by Webweasel on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:44PM
Ahhh you didn't see the Newsnight interview with Lottie Dexter did you?
No, your completely wrong. Coding is easy! So easy in fact that she is convinced that a days course in coding and she can produce better websites than all of us!
How dare you question a senior member of the government!
For reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7x7GYItzS4 [youtube.com]
Priyom.org Number stations, Russian Military radio. "You are a bad, bad man. Do you have any other virtues?"-Runaway1956
(Score: 2) by velex on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:16PM
Exactly. Getting the robot to get from (1, 1) around the obstacle at (3, 4) and to the door at (5, 6) is trivial.
Now tell the person wanting to learn programming that they have to solve that problem without knowing where the obstacle or door are located. Watch their eyes glaze over.
The focus should be making sure children are comfortable with algebra and critical thinking before trying to teach them programming. I've had too many people who have wanted me to help them learn "programming" who didn't have basic algebra skills. They could do the former exercise but were utterly unprepared to even approach the latter exercise.
(Or: Write code to add up these two specific numbers. Easy! Write code to add up any two numbers. Easy! Write code to add up an arbitrary number of numbers. Unpossible!)
Disclaimer: I'll be the first to admit I'm a terrible teacher. That's why I don't teach for a living.
(Score: 2) by everdred on Wednesday May 14 2014, @05:30PM
> It's also not going to be useful for most people.
Not everyone who learns to code needs to become proficient. There's value in teaching kids, from the first time they interact with computers, that very simple software can be created to solve problems.
At the very least, wouldn't it be awesome to end up with adults who, when faced with a problem like "Rename these 10,000 files," think "I could probably use a for loop" instead of "Okay, see you in three weeks."
I work with adults who've used computers all their lives, can install apps on their iPad, but just don't have it in their cognitive toolbox to automate mundane tasks. And because no one around them does either, this kind of thing persists.
(Score: 1) by SecurityGuy on Wednesday May 14 2014, @07:22PM
Sure, it'd be awesome if the average adult could do that...if the average adult ever had that kind of problem to solve. The average adult doesn't. Heck, I don't think I've had to solve that particular problem, though in fairness I have had to do it for 1,000...but I've been in IT for ~20 years.
We're graduating average adults who are bad at math. We're graduating adults who don't understand science at all, which fuels nonsense like the anti-vaccine movement and people squandering their money on pseudoscientific garbage that does nothing to help them. Just yesterday I read a blog where someone's 4 year old was dying of cancer and someone recommended they look into a soundly debunked cancer "cure".
Yeah, if we're going to get everyone to know how to do something, let's get them all to know how to do science.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @01:24AM
Wouldn't it be awesome to end up with adults who think about problems instead of assuming someone else will think for them?
I've rewritten the names of files hundreds of times and each time I look for an easy programming (bash+sed is programming) solution. It has saved me countless hours of what I know is generally done one by one by hand.
I'm bad at math so when I encounter a problem that isn't simple, I try to find ways to let a computer solve it for me. I love science but there are millions of people who understand science problems better than I do, but I know they're not always right, so when I see some potential solution, I try to think it through. It has caused me some frustration with dark matter and quantum physics, but my tendency to break a big complex problem into many smaller simple problems has served me well. It works for coding and it works for life. Science and programming aren't all that different; both are about trying to understand how to understand a complex problem with smaller ideas.
Hypothesize, test, observe - the rule for making good programmers, thinkers and scientists.
(Score: 2) by Blackmoore on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:08PM
This is NOT about programming. it is about critical thinking.
It is far simpler to control a population who can not
frame it as "Programming" and the population will say -"aw hell no that what those geeks do!" but it isnt about programming. it's about critical thinking - a skill in decline because they just want you to buy something new, or something else, something shiny.
(Score: 1) by Webweasel on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:10PM
How about we focus on things people need?
First Aid training for a start. Understanding how to control bleeding will save many lives every year.
Basic accounting and budgeting. What debt really is, how interest works.
There are plenty of things that we should be teaching our kids but don't. Programming is not one of them.
I have to wonder, considering how many articles of this nature I have seen over the years... Is the real goal of this to create a glut of programmers and turn our positions into blue collar low wage jobs? Oh Wait... let me check the programmers. Huh 80% Indians. Hmm guess that already happened.
So since 80% of current positions are filled with people from India.... what jobs will these school kids aspire to?
Priyom.org Number stations, Russian Military radio. "You are a bad, bad man. Do you have any other virtues?"-Runaway1956
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:30PM
"what jobs will these school kids aspire to?"
Telling people who need jobs and a functioning economy to get more education (or learn to code, or put ipads in the classroom) is the "let them eat cake" of the 21st century. I'm not kidding, in future centuries it'll be looked at just like "let them eat cake" is looked at now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:43PM
You want to teach that in elementary school?
(Score: 1) by Webweasel on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:50PM
Interest is just percentages and multiplication over time.
We are talking about coding... you know, algebra, basic maths. Things like interest rates.
How is that any harder than rote learning the times tables?
Perhaps if we did engage them in primary school (elementary for you yanks) then they would have a better understanding?
Most adults don't understand compound interest. My 8 year old daughter does, as I bothered to put effort into her education.
Priyom.org Number stations, Russian Military radio. "You are a bad, bad man. Do you have any other virtues?"-Runaway1956
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:32PM
Yeah, we DID do these things in my elementary school (USA - Pennsylvania). They used examples like store sale prices, how much of a discount is 10%, even things like applying multiple discounts (If the sale is 50% off, and you have a coupon for an additional 10% off, what's the final price?) I think that was part of learning to multiply fractions.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:29PM
At least in Pennsylvania, all of that is already taught. Hell, we were even required to be certified by the Red Cross or something for CPR every few years as part of our health/PE classes. We did budgeting damn near every year, sometimes in math classes and sometimes in civics classes. We filled out sample tax forms. We practiced comparing loan and credit card offers. We even learned how credit scores work.
That wasn't THAT long ago either -- I'm currently 23.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @01:51AM
What we really need is people who learn problem solving skills. That's the foundation of programming. It is also the foundation of first aid, accounting and budgeting. Debt sounds evil and usually is, but deciding what debt is rational in relation to interest rates and when it is worthwhile is problem solving.
I was lucky. I received problem solving training as part of an engineering program and as a gift from dedicated parents. It has served me well as a programmer and as a human. I'm lucky to call myself successful.
I don't begrudge the Indians who take the low wage jobs, I look forward to managing and training them. What jobs will these school kids aspire to? They'll aspire to being the managers, CIOs and CEOs of the low wage programmers, Indian, Russian or American. Each of those low wage programmers is saved from a life of poverty and I'm happy to provide them with the environment where they can grow and aspire to my job.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:11PM
Dvorak's answer is correct, based on observations of my grade school kids attending an ipad-equipped school. "You can tell we care about the kids merely because of how much money we spent on them, all we gotta do is keep buying ipads to keep the tax dollars rolling in" "We're training them for the new millennium" (Apparently new millennium jobs are solely oriented around watching youtube videos)
The biggest problem with teaching kids is likely to be overconfidence. "Hey I wrote hello world, err, the teacher wrote it for us and I typed in my copy, so running a top 50 website is no big deal". Nobody would make that mistake over grade school kids writing ability, or athletic ability, but I suspect it'll be a problem with coding.
Also a generation that can't on average solve the most simple word problems isn't going to be able to code. Unless you redefine coding downward to mean something almost meaninglessly basic, like creating a "hello world" 3 line website page, probably in a GUI. If you can solve moderately complicated engineering word problems, and write an essay following all the formal rules of writing and grammar and spelling, then you can usefully begin to think about starting coding. Because the intersection set of those two groups is about 5% of the population, trying to teach 100% of the population is going to be a complete waste of time other than "feel good"ism.
(Score: 1) by Webweasel on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:41PM
Imagine the ones who end up in management.
Crap, I think I just gave myself a few weeks of nightmares.
Priyom.org Number stations, Russian Military radio. "You are a bad, bad man. Do you have any other virtues?"-Runaway1956
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:45PM
Given that the new millennium will start in about 986 years, they have really high expectations about the longevity of the kids. ;-)
(Score: 1) by Oligonicella on Wednesday May 14 2014, @05:31PM
See? This is one of the problems with expanding everything taught and not concentrating on the basics. English. That sentence also means training them for the new millennium *which we are currently in*. It's only fourteen years old out of one hundred. New.
(Score: 3, Funny) by ragequit on Wednesday May 14 2014, @07:43PM
I'm sure it's 14 of one thousand. A century is one hundred. Basics indeed.
The above views are fabricated for your reading pleasure.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 14 2014, @08:42PM
I was trying to sound like a PR flack, like the kind of stuff I heard about the ipad rollout at the kids school. I think I did pretty well... they really do sound like that. "We're going to turn our test scores around 360 degrees", lots of that sort of thing. They do things like announce the expansion of the STEM program to solve the "STEM worker shortage" the month after two big local STEM employers move to China and fire every STEM employee. Awesome stuff like that.
They are actually a pretty good district and at least one of the local HS makes it to the nationals of the academic decathlon almost every year, and generally earn a good placement, so... they kick butt, its just their PR people sound like idiots who were recently awakened from a Y2K time capsule, although that is overly insulting to the Y2K survivalists.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @02:30PM
Before anything else, I would really like them to stop calling it 'coding' and 'code'. It's programming, computer programming to be specific. Should kids be taught to program computers? That's the question.
Though I suspect I would be still be peeved if they called it programming... 'hacking' is a word that nerds and geeks spent a lot of energy trying to rehabilitate, and that's happened... but now, it's used too loosely.
The root of the problem is probably a word's status as a buzzword. Hacking is a buzzword now; code / coding is a buzzword. Both are annoying.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @02:27AM
How do you feel about analytical thinking?
(Score: 2) by mechanicjay on Wednesday May 14 2014, @03:15PM
I think the push to make programming "easy" and "for everyone" is basically a scam. This stuff is sufficiently difficult for the average person, just like Algebra and Calc -- anyone can do it, but it takes work and time to learn. Teaching basic math and critical thinking skills is far more important at the Elementary School level. That stuff lays the groundwork for all organized problem solving skills later on. Every politician has a major Hard-on for STEM education, but we can't even teach our kids to add 2+2 -- you don't get one without the other.
If I were to do anything "programming" related with kids before middle school, it wouldn't involve doing much on a computer actually -- I'd design some games and exercises that could introduce some basic concepts like loops and variables and what not...
My VMS box beat up your Windows box.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:38PM
In my school district, we started algebra in sixth grade. Which was elementary school.
The "gifted" classes started programming simple stuff in BASIC and LOGO in freakin' first grade -- surely by sixth the other students should be capable of understanding it too...after all, they CAN manage algebra by then!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @03:54PM
Definitely, every kid should learn to code so they know how hard it is. Then later on in life, some of those kids will be in charge of projects where code is being written, and they'll have a better appreciation for what is going on. Then they won't dismiss recommendations, schedules, estimates, a proper planning process, best practices, documentation, etc and expect software developers to just pull something that works out of their heads instantly.
(Score: 1) by youngatheart on Thursday May 15 2014, @02:30AM
Well said.
I wish my own bosses had training that taught them how programming really works
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @04:19PM
Look how far we got without it being a crazy buzzed up evangelical movement? Plenty of folk found it their calling to build some amazing stuff. I just feel like kids should find their own path to programing as a career. We should have good resources for those but now it's starting to feel a little unrealistic, cult-like overboard.
I think having the option of basic computing in grade school and then more so in high school as an OPTION is enough.
Programmers are in such demand they can ask for good salaries, but if everyone is indoctrinated into software engineering and such skill set is not as scarce, what happens to those salaries? This benefits the pushers of this movement, not the programmers. Am I wrong?
(Score: 1) by goodie on Wednesday May 14 2014, @06:06PM
I don't get it... Why would we want to teach this to kids? I mean, when I hear people like Zuckerfu$k telling us that kids should learn to code as early as possible, I can't help but think that he'd love to drive his costs down. I mean we do so much without this kind of nonsense, do we think that we would actually be better off if we did? I'm not sure. At this age, we should teach fundamental, proven skills. And as much as I love programming, I don't think that it fits in this objective. Let's teach kids about arithmetics, critical thinking, geography, history etc. There's enough for us to learn about one another and ourselves before we teach kids to sit in front of the screen all night because "it's for their assignment".
I have nothing against explaining kids how computers work, how there are people who develop applications they use on an everyday basis etc. In fact, I think it's very important. But coding? Nope, I really can't see the point. I don't think we're that special that we should teach everybody to code. Our "discipline" is nascent and to be honest, I can't say that I feel we're in control in any way as to how things are and how they should be. Teach kids logic and other things which they can apply if and when they decide to try programming. But until then, not a good idea imho.
I know some will make a case that these things could be taught with programming. But I like the idea that these things exist on their own and are applied through programming. Programming isn't an end in and of itself to me. First you need the idea, then figure out how you want to do it. Then you code.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday May 14 2014, @07:05PM
We teach kids to build basic electrical circuits in elementary school science class, even though most will never become electricians or EEs; so why shouldn't we teach basic programming even though most won't become programmers?
It's not what they learn ABOUT programming; it's what they can learn FROM programming.
1) So much of our current society relies on information technology, and I don't see that changing dramatically any time soon. Learning how computers work today is like learning how electricity worked fifty years ago -- even if you never do any electrical work, it's still good to know why you shouldn't grab a live high-voltage wire.
2) The fundamental concepts of programming are about problem-solving. About breaking a large difficult problem into progressively smaller ones until you can solve each easily. It's amazing how many people can't seem to do that...
(Score: 1) by goodie on Thursday May 15 2014, @07:37PM
Interesting point, where I come from (France), we didn't learn about electrical circuits until we were 13 or 14 if I remember correctly. I can understand the analogy but I think that logic is a better idea than programming still. At least this is independent from any language. But I get your point, I just hope if we decide to do this, we can do it in a smart way which opens up kids' minds rather than constrain them (e.g., run an experiment, explain that we could model it using a simulation which we could program etc. although the level of skills required to do this may be too high for the age).
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday May 16 2014, @11:41AM
I completely agree there. I'd say it's not even necessary to start with a real language, although being able to actually run the programs will probably get the kids a lot more excited about it.
Something that works like the old Lego Mindstorms software package would probably be a good place to start; you can teach these things graphically:s torms/graphics/rcxcode2.jpg [oreillynet.com]
http://www.oreillynet.com/network/2000/01/31/mind
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday May 14 2014, @07:22PM
The R's were good enough for me, and they should be good enough for kids nowadays.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14 2014, @11:46PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_langua ge) [wikipedia.org]
I'd also add Octave (free Matlab clone) and bash scripting. All of these should be mandatory, required for graduation.
As an elective, plain old C would be nice. Set a goal of 5% to 11% of the students learning it.
(Score: 1) by VortexCortex on Thursday May 15 2014, @04:09AM
By middle school kids should be able to understand what a Turing machine is and even manually do some computations using one. This single simple mathematical machine dispels the magic black box of so much computing and language translation, etc. If you are not teaching kids how to leverage a simple universal calculator then you are not teaching them a fundamental component to understanding the world around them. We teach them about screws and simple machines and how heat rises, etc. We teach them about cells and DNA. If we're doing that, then the even simpler Turing Machine needs to be taught.
I've taught 10-15 year old kids how to code in assembly language 1st on the way to simple game programming. We start with a Turing machine that uses coloured numbered blocks to do some basic mathematics in about an hour. Then they can grok ASM very simply. We write helloworld.asm and a "guess the number" game, then we're off to a higher level language. That single day introductory course at the community center gives kids SO MUCH understanding that even if they never learn to code they're never scared to try. Computers are no longer mystical magical machines.
How can you teach children things like long division or geometry and not give them the simple means to leverage these tools upon reality? Humans are tool using creatures. That's why smart human children will say, "When will I ever use this in real life?" If you're not teaching them programming then your answer will be far less satisfying than, "Right Now!", and they'll rightly dismiss your bogus method of teaching.
The question is silly. Should we teach people to read and write? It's the same answer. In a civilization where reading and writing isn't beneficial then English and mathematics isn't. This is the Information Age, and so much of the world around humans is manipulatable via a sort script or computation -- Even this very page. You can't use a computer fully if you can't write a simple program. You wouldn't remain illiterate and rely on others to read you a sales receipt or a sign, or write you a letter; Why would you think it acceptable to do the same with computers? Non programmers can't do anything on a computer that someone else didn't do for them. Don't you know how to put gasoline in a car? You know how to warm up your food? Only the rich can afford to be completely ignorant and rely on others for everything.
Hell, you can't even talk intelligently about philosophy without knowing about Turing Machines.
(Score: 1) by AndyCanfield on Thursday May 15 2014, @07:55AM
I've been programming for 45 years. I've seen 'programming' evolve from 'ADD AX,BX' to 'Drag this picture into that frame'. Programming, as we know it, will be obsolete by the time these kids grow up. Imagine a robot programmer. What the kids need to know is how to control the robot, not how to emulate the robot.