Normally, when I make a post on SoylentNews, it's to talk about some exciting new feature, our future, or something similar.
Unfortunately though, on rare occasions, I have to make announcements like this one. Sometime between May 12-13th, one of our email accounts was breached. The account ("test1") was left over from go live, over a year and half ago, and had a very weak password protecting it. We believe that an automated password guesser was able to find and access the account. Once breached, the account was used to send a significant amount of spam until we deleted the affected account on the 14th May 2015.
As a result of the compromise, several spam services have blacklisted our mail server; we're currently working to try and get ourselves cleared whenever we become aware of one of these blocks. We do not believe any user information or sensitive data was compromised; the account in question was simply a virtual dovecot account with no corresponding UNIX account attached to it.
mechanicjay was primarily responsible for handling this and cleaning up the mess, and I wish to personally thank him and the rest of the sysops team for their handling of this issue. We are looking at taking steps to prevent a reoccurence such as using fail2ban and the like. Unfortunately, most IDS systems like fail2ban are incompatible with IPv6 which we use extensively internally within our network.
A sysops meeting is being scheduled to discuss this and other changes we're making to the infrastructure.
I will update this article (or post a new one) with additional information should it become available,
NCommander
Related Stories
- 5 mod points are handed out to at 00:10 UTC to users with positive karma
- ACs start at +0, users with karma less than 40 post at +1, users above that can post at +2
- You need 10 karma to mark some spam or troll
- Under normal circumstances, the staff do *not* have unlimited mod points, but can (and have) banned abusers of the moderation system
Please also review our SoylentNews Moderation Guidelines.
As always, we are willing to make changes to the system, but please post examples *with* links to any cases of suspected mod abuse. It's a lot easier to justify changing the system when evidence is in black and white. I also recommend that users make serious proposals on changes we can make. I'm not going to color the discussion with my own opinions, but as always, I will respond inline with comments when this goes live, and post a follow up article a few days after this one
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @10:27AM
-1 Breach
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:19PM
Is there any indication that Cypherpunks where involved?
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Monday May 18 2015, @06:21PM
And I think we may have a new meme on our hands...
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @07:39AM
I think we may have a new meme on our hands...
No, no we don't! Only positive and uplifting memes here on Soylent News what got an email account hacked. But seriously, Soylent News is People, after all, and people, and I am referring to "people" here, (do I get extra points for a Serenity quote?), make mistakes like picking weak passwords because it is only a test account and should deleted in the next update of the whole system. Or, not. People. I can live with it, I always have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @08:08PM
If this email account was breached, how can we be sure that the database or databases containing the user data were not breached, as well?
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Tuesday May 19 2015, @05:49AM
There's no indication that anything managed to get in over SSH, and as I said before, the account was a virtual dovecot account. Even if berylliun was breached (which again we have no reason to believe), the only information on that box is the wiki. There are no kerberos keytabs on that box beside the standard host keytab, so it would have been impossible to SSH to another machine with store credentials.
Once authenticated, you can relay freely through postfix since the staff frequently have to send emails from beyond their normal address; i.e., replying as qa@soylentnews.org or something like that.
Still always moving
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Kell on Monday May 18 2015, @10:29AM
Thanks for being open and up-front about this. That kind of transparency is important to keep the faith with the users. Being proactive and honest does a lot to protect the reputation of an organisation, compared to burying it and hoping nobody notices.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:23PM
This is another great reason not to have an account here, and just to post as AC all of the time. An account that doesn't exist cannot be compromised.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:08PM
Actually I just hacked your Anonymous Coward account, and now I can post as you! ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:10PM
Are you a Cypherpunk?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:05PM
I am the Supreme Ultimate Cypherpunk EleventyOne of all time!
I have hacked ALL the AC accounts, and NOW all your AC are belong to ME!!
Now bow down and pay tribute to me. I want all of your 'one' bits sacrificed to my Honor and Glory. Since I am feeling generous, I will let you keep your puny 'zero' bits.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @05:16PM
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:10PM
HAHAHA, DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS
(Score: 5, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday May 18 2015, @10:29AM
I mean, you left a small vulnerability in one of your services, which is fair enough. Plenty of reputable organisations have done the same.
But then you have the audacity to secure everything else so that the attacker can't escalate access, steal user information and payment data and then download all your incriminating emails for subsequent wikileakage. I notice you didn't let the attacker piss unintelligible l33tspeak graffiti all over your site's front page! What is this, are we back in the eighties or something?
Next thing you'll be telling us you didn't even try to cover the whole mess up before being forced to admit what happened. Furthermore I bet you completely failed to threaten some altruistic security researcher with legal action for giving you warning about the security flaw months before it was exploited.
Honestly, I don't know what the web is coming to.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @10:58AM
We've gone through a *lot* of pain to keep things as isolated as possible from each other. For example, we don't use SSH private keys for server-to-server communication, instead using kerberos keytabs which can easily be nuked from a central location in case of breach. If it wasn't for the fact that kerberos is a pain to use over the open internet, I'd love to remove the use of SSH key all together; *way* too easy to leave an authorized_keys somewhere after a breach and get pwned for it.
We give minimum privileges possible preventing non-sysops from having access to boxes they don't need to reduce our attach service; critical infrastructure runs in AppArmor, with the hope that if someone finds a remote execution exploit in slashcode/rehash, it would prevent breach; access logs in the database are regularly purged. Our firewall rules could probably be tighter though in retrospect though.
No security can be perfect, but we want at least to be a tough enough nut that only a dedicated attack aimed at us would stand a chance at succeeding. If I ever get to the post of rewriting the DBI layer, rehash would only talk to the SQL server via prepared statement and not execute any raw SQL directly. Unfortunately, that's pretty deep down on the TODO list.
Still always moving
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday May 18 2015, @01:30PM
Is this itself not a security leak of info? Or honeypot? Hmmm....onions within onions, swimming pools within TARDIS'S.....
...my Snowden senses are tingling!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Yog-Yogguth on Monday May 18 2015, @02:42PM
Nope. SQL stands for Structured Query Language, it's a given that it uses itself i.e. structured queries as defined by SQL. SQL gotcha's are well known and only allowing a small selection of previously prepared statements is going the extra mile, not hard to see why it isn't a top priority (note that it doesn't stop the SQL database from doing anything but it makes it harder for Rehash to send a bad or malicious query to the SQL database).
Bite harder Ouroboros, bite! tails.boum.org/ linux USB CD secure desktop IRC *crypt tor (not endorsements (XKeyScore))
(Score: 3, Informative) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @03:42PM
MySQL prepared statements are something of a joke. You can't do much with them and they don't offer much improvement over raw SQL. To fully replace what Slash does would require T-SQL or similar. The entire database layer is wrapped with insert/select/etc. functions which take various arguments and autoescape on passing through to the MySQL level (see Slash/DB for implementation details). Slash is coded to be resistent to injection attacks, but the sheer amount of SQL is bloody staggering. I have a project on my TODO list to port the mess to PostgreSQL so I can take the entire database wrapper, and move it *into* the database where it becomes.
Still always moving
(Score: 2) by tibman on Monday May 18 2015, @08:45PM
Prepared statements do take the burden of sanitation away from the developers (as far as the DB goes anyways). Since slash has business logic in the DB that could make moving to anything else a bit of a pain : /
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Tuesday May 19 2015, @05:43AM
Relatively few FOSS projects seem to use the database layer for business logic. The odds if/when I get to it, I can remove 30k LOC or so from the DB layer into smaller stored procedures ....
Still always moving
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @05:39PM
if it suits what you're doing, openssh 6 and authorized key command feature are enough to centralize key credential management. ldap, sql, your grandma's kitchen cupboard, as long as you have or write an executable taking a login id and returning public keys you can store and manage them in a single place, wherever you like.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @10:32AM
sshguard [sshguard.net]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @10:49AM
Hello Solution. I dunno who you are, but I 3 you. I'm going to bring this up at the sysops meeting as a solution.
Still always moving
(Score: 2) by Techwolf on Monday May 18 2015, @03:51PM
I hope you did at least move off the default port. Did you?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @05:33PM
I hope you did at least move off the default port. Did you?
They did one better. They put everything on port 22. That should confuse any script kiddie, black hat, white hat, sys admin, casual observer, or even uninterested party. Most people say "42" is the answer. I'm here to tell you that "22" is the answer!
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Tuesday May 19 2015, @05:44AM
Honestly, I've never understood the point of doing this; nmap will find it regardless. There's security through obscurity, but this seems like it would barely make any difference.
Still always moving
(Score: 2) by Techwolf on Tuesday May 19 2015, @06:41PM
Somewhat true. But in this case, it was a spammer. They don't bother using nmap. The porpus is too stop logfiles from filling up with script kiddies running scripts due to not knowing anything else but point and click. And spammers too sence they don't know how to crack a system via hacking on it.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @11:41AM
I wish you editors yank Appalbarry's cliched (and deluded) rant on the pending queue. Obvious flamebait is obvious.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:38PM
It can't be any worse than gewg_'s "USAian Researchers Impressed With Cuba's Drugs" submission, which not only is full of his usual pro-communist bullshit, but it also contains a slur ("USAian") within its title.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @07:56AM
And pull all these tiresome and redundant complaints to the "admins" to censor stuff! Are these ACs so clueless as to not realize that Soylent News is people, and that means there are no "admins"? So all this "unfair" "incorrect', and my favorite, "abusive" moderation needs to continue unabated! But one question, where has the Mighty Buzz been of late? Has he submerged? That would explain a lot. Ever since the Jade Helm accusation that it was Okies that would be invading Tejas . . . .
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:33PM
That email account is not the only thing being abused to harm this site.
The other thing being abused is the moderation system.
In pretty much every story I read, I see good comments modded down.
Now I have to browse at -1 all of the time.
That defeats the purpose of having a moderation system.
Instead of flagging good comments, the abused moderation system just suppresses good comments.
Major changes are needed.
Major fixes are needed.
First each modded comment should list who modded it.
It should be possible to flag a downmod moderation as abusive.
If a moderator gets more than three moderations flagged as being abusive, then that moderator never moderates again.
That will be simple to build, and it will restore sanity to this site.
It will make people think twice about downmodding.
It will also properly save our community from those who abuse moderation to prevent discussion, instead of encouraging it.
We need this built right away, before the moderation abuse gets any worse.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:45PM
STFU. Modertaion is subjective, and that's a good thing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:49PM
We're talking about moderation here, not modertaion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:03PM
Well, that's different, eh.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:59PM
I would suggest a "Show All" link right next to the "# comments" under each story, that would show all comments at -1. Should save some bandwidth.
Note: Everyone doesn't like to login, or even have an account linking them to what they wrote.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:05PM
This security incident shows that it's actually bad to have accounts. Accounts with passwords can be compromised. This can't happen if the account doesn't exist in the first place.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by engblom on Monday May 18 2015, @01:27PM
While this is offtopic to the real discussion about the abused e-mail account, I fully agree with you.
I might burn some of the karma I have collected on this site, but I want to claim that moderation works better at that other green site than on this one because of the people visiting it. Here people are modding down things they do not agree with rather than modding up what they agree with. This site has fan boys liking to be in power. On the other site you often see both arguments modded up so you, as a reader, can see both and decide for yourself what is a better argument.
Because of the current moderation system and the fan boys present at this site, I have many times been thinking to give up SN. Sometimes I have been a whole week away, sometimes more. And I was among the first to register at this site as I dislike Dice as much as other do, but the people at SN has not been what I have been hoping for.
My own suggestion would be to only allow people to moderate up, never down. Then it is easy to filter out those comments nobody liked. At present state, if the opinions are like 50%-50% about something, a comment might get both modded up and down so the result is around 0. A such comment should be visible in my opinion.
(Score: 3, Informative) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @01:42PM
I think this proves we're due for another community post on moderation.
Expect one this week.
Still always moving
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:47PM
Is it just going to be yet another post, or is it going to be action?
We're past the point of discussing this.
It's clear what needs to be done.
Moderators need to be held accountable for their abuses.
Moderators who mod down good posts, or even just a single post, should never mod again.
It's that simple.
(Score: 4, Informative) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @02:05PM
Examples required. We do ban moderation abuse, but apparently shit is falling through the cracks. I rather not go charging into this without getting a full set of opinions across the board, and moderation is off topic for this post. We do take shit like this seriously, and if we're going to revamp the system *again*, I rather have a plan than just throw something at the wall and see if it sticks.
Still always moving
(Score: 5, Informative) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @05:25PM
I'm usually the loudest to complain about bad moderation but honestly, around here, I rarely see it. If you'd like proof of that please feel free to look at my comments page. [soylentnews.org] I'm not everybody's favorite person here, in fact you personally have seen me in action and I've definitely butted heads with the Mighty Buzzard. But you can see here virtually all the moderations I've received have been positive.
I have no problem at all with you constantly evaluating the moderation system, it only serves to benefit me and the people that comment here. But I do want to say I really appreciate you asking that AC for proof because he has been challenged on that before and he's never provided it. From where I sit there's just a crying baby demanding a second bottle.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @06:02PM
It's not just one AC pointing out the bad modding.
engblom is a registered user who also sees that there's a problem, for example.
Others have acknowledged the problems in the past, too.
Maybe you don't want to admit there's a problem, Tork, because you are one of the users who is perpetrating this harmful downmodding.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @06:11PM
It's not just one AC pointing out the bad modding. engblom is a registered user who also sees that there's a problem, for example. Others have acknowledged the problems in the past, too.
So one person, probably you, has seen this problem. Great. There's something very obvious missing here, do you know what that is?
Maybe you don't want to admit there's a problem, Tork, because you are one of the users who is perpetrating this harmful downmodding.
If you really truly do believe what you're preaching, you should know this is exactly the wrong path to go down. You've already been told what you need to do. It's time to man up.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @06:28PM
Tork, there is a problem with bad moderating here.
It exists even if you don't want to admit it.
If you're part of the problem, as you very well may be, then of course you won't want to admit it.
But you should still admit it anyway.
Because there is a problem with bad moderating here.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @06:39PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:26PM
Hello, fallacy! [logicallyfallacious.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2015, @12:27AM
That fallacy doesn't apply when there is in fact a problem, like there is in this case.
Repeatedly insisting that Obama is a Muslim is an example of that fallacy in action, because Obama is not a Muslim.
Repeatedly pointing out that there is a severe mismoderation problem here at SoylentNews is not an example of that fallacy in action, because there is in fact a severe mismoderation problem here at SoylentNews.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @08:09AM
Wow, I just accused Tork of being _the_ whiner (in not so many words) like, yesterday. And now here he is, a full blown reasonable Soylentil! I may have misjudged you, Tork. I concur with everything you said.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @05:59PM
Here are just two examples from one story from earlier today:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7499&cid=184571 [soylentnews.org]: 2, Troll
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7499&cid=184583 [soylentnews.org]: 0, Troll
Perfectly fine comments like those are getting wrongly modded down way too often here.
Tork wrongly says it's just some AC who's complaining, but both of those comments are from registered users.
Everyone is falling victim to this bad modding, AC or not.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @08:32PM
Tork wrongly says it's just some AC who's complaining, but both of those comments are from registered users.
I don't see their complaint. I also don't understand why you can't just post the specific comments that got you mouthing off in the first place instead of glancing around for modded down posts and going "See, I'm right!" I mean, seriously, with all the noise you've generated I expected something a lot more substantial. But I think we both know if you point in that direction you'll reveal that you actually did deserve your moderation.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @08:37PM
Even a single incorrectly moderated comment is a huge deal.
It doesn't matter who the victim is.
The fact that one person was victimized is more than enough for this to become a big deal around here.
There have been many examples given, affecting many victims.
That makes this a big deal.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @08:42PM
Even a single incorrectly moderated comment is a huge deal.
If the moderators were all staff of the site I'd agree with you. Randomly dispersed around the readership and the usage is based on opinion? No.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @08:25AM
The fact that one person was victimized is more than enough for this to become a big deal around here.
Gawd, you are dense. Yes, if this was a matter of some human right laid out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but this is only a matter of an idiot being told that they are an idiot, which while possibly rude, is no violation of rights and certainly not a big deal.
Wait, are you using "victims" in the "Indiana" sense? Or are you using "victim" in the Gamergate sense? Is it just the refusal of normal people to agree with your insane world view that is unjust and oppressive? Gentlepersons, I believe we have discovered the violence inherent in the system. I recommend a new mod, "Crazy, but that's OK", we will probably have to give it a +1, the whole "disagree" ruse is not going to work again. Or perhaps the Seinfeld version: "Not that there's anything wrong with that". This we might be able to get away with the +0 on. And finally, maybe just an "anti_gewg_" mod, at a suggested -2, just for emphasis. As a prior victim of a spam modding, it is difficult for me to suggest harsher measures for our serial disrupters, but it is even more clear now what must be done. (Hey, wasn't that the title of one of Lenin's pamphlets? Have we been infested by Trotksyists pretending to be Republicans? )
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @08:06AM
I rather not go charging into this without getting a full set of opinions across the board, and moderation is off topic for this post.
Exactly, and this is precisely why you are our N Commander. Carry on, Sir!
(Score: 4, Informative) by opinionated_science on Monday May 18 2015, @05:09PM
Says the anon....evidence please?
(Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Monday May 18 2015, @06:33PM
So are you suggesting that someone with an account should be held responsible for their actions, but the AC's who (IMHO) do their best to ruin this site should be allowed to continue without any rein on their activities? There are some good ACs, but the majority are simply avoiding being held accountable for anything. Try following a discussion when everybody is AC - it is not pleasant.
My own feeling is that the right to moderate should be linked to previous commenting and, where possible, that account's use of the moderation system. I do not support ACs - how difficult is it to create an account if you want to say something, even if you never use the account again. But, we would know who was saying what, and new accounts wouldn't have the right to make use of all of the moderation options. Just my €0.02.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @06:57PM
The best comments I've ever seen here have come from ACs. All of them. I have never seen truly insightful, deep comments come from a registered user.
Registered users aren't here to engage in truly thought-provoking discussion. They're here to build up a reputation. They're here for the sake of vanity. That's why they create an account in the first place: they care more about appearances than about the discussion.
This site isn't alone, obviously. The best content at /. comes from ACs. This is also why the discussion at sites like Reddit and HN, which do not have anonymous users, is so vapid. It's never about the discussion there. It's never about the ideas. It's all about building up vain online personas.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:35PM
So you've not been doing much SN reading at all, you're only reading stories immediately after they're posted and then never again, or you're lying to push an agenda. There are insightful posts from registered users and plenty of "marry young girls" spam posts from ACs. Merely by using the phrase "all of them", you're provably wrong or such a minor user of SN that your points are likewise invalid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @11:14PM
The GP never claimed that ACs didn't post bad comments. The GP also never claimed that registered users don't post good comments. The GP did say that "the best comments ... come from ACs". I hope you're able to comprehend what was said, and what wasn't said, and how they differ.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 20 2015, @12:19AM
Nope, the poster you refer to wrote:
... which is either provably wrong, or marks that poster as a completely inconsequential user of SN due to spending effecitvely zero time on this site.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:41PM
i have to agree with this. i make a lot of posts as AC, despite having an account, because i don't want the reputation that can come along with them, eg, i don't want to be labeled as "that" kind of person, where "that" is some opinion that you don't personally agree with because of your biases. its not about preserving my reputation, but more about not wanting to be pidgeonholed based on my perceived biases, and being pre-judged based on that rather than the content of my posts. i want the information in my posts to be heard by all, and unfortunately humans let their biases get in the way [boston.com] far too easily, like how facts coming from "the other side" will be ignored and make one's delusional views even more entrenched, but hearing them from "your side" will actually have an impression. i want my posts to be viewed equally by all, rather than being immediately ignored or brushed off for no other reason than the fact that the viewers' biases are different from my own.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday May 19 2015, @02:56AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've got an account so I can customise the layout and have that same layout available regardless of where I access SN from. Maybe your generalisation is correct, but I'd need to see actual evidence before I believe it.
And speaking of generalisations, it sure seems like the common thread here is that those complaining about broken moderation lacks evidence to back up their claims.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @08:42AM
Registered users aren't here to engage in truly thought-provoking discussion. They're here to build up a reputation. They're here for the sake of vanity. That's why they create an account in the first place: they care more about appearances than about the discussion.
Yes, that is why me, Aristarchus of Samos, a 2400 year old Greek philosopher, came here to Soylent News and registered under my own true name! Because I needed the rep! Some times I envy Galadriel, because she could have just put on the One Ring, and not had to deal with all you ACs and orcs.
(Score: 2) by tathra on Monday May 18 2015, @09:23PM
zero-tolerance policies do very little to actually improve things. after a certain point, making punishments even harsher do nothing to decrease the occurances of the action you want to limit, and are sometimes even counter-productive. what you're basically suggesting is that people should be executed for the tiniest of mistakes.
beyond that, there's also benefits to having leniency in a system - it'd be downright retarded to take away somebody's moderation ability permanently because they accidentally selected the wrong moderation while drunk one night, and having to deal with an appeals system to restore one's moderation ability because of simple mistakes would just create even more bureaucracy and headaches than it would be worth.
there's also the fact that, for most instances, what makes a moderation "bad" is purely subjective - not agreeing with a moderation doesn't make it bad, so who is in charge of deciding, and what gives them the right to force their will and viewpoint on everyone else?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 19 2015, @08:04AM
It's clear what needs to be done.
Moderators need to be held accountable for their abuses.
Moderators who mod down good posts, or even just a single post, should never mod again.
This is not at all clear. What is clear is that the one particular troll who keeps disrupting every discussion here needs to be IP banned, for how many ever IP addresses are in play. I find that the moderation on this site is completely fair, and I see no reason anyone would think otherwise, unless they are a butt-hurt minority. No problem with further tinkering with the mod system, but I do not think it will do what the AC whiner thinks it will do, nor do I think it will solve the whiner AC problem for the rest of us. I suggest we take off, and nuke the "Mod Abuse" troll from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Tuesday May 19 2015, @04:12AM
Maybe I just don't browse low enough often enough or in the past enough, but I don't see what engblom is going on about. When asked for examples, I saw one person [soylentnews.org] out of three give legit examples. (I have to admire the effort [soylentnews.org] of this guy, though. I only looked at the top six and they were all trollish comments.) I'm curious to see what you have to say and look forward to it.
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @01:59PM
An article is on the queue to specifically discuss moderation for Wednesday at 10:00 UTC.
Still always moving
(Score: 3, Informative) by Joe Desertrat on Monday May 18 2015, @06:37PM
Please give us examples of some good comments that were modded down. All I've seen in this thread and others today are a few anti-Gewg and anti-commie rants.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @07:06PM
Read the fucking comments here, dipshit. You'll find a comment giving the kind of examples you are looking for. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Marand on Tuesday May 19 2015, @01:11AM
Oh look, a fine example of an "insightful AC comment" that got "wrongfully" downmoadded that the original poster is complaining about. :)
Protip: being an asshole is a great way to get a flamebait mod -- or "troll" because some people don't grok the difference -- regardless of how insightful or correct the rest of the response is. If you don't like getting downmodded, try not being a dick.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Tuesday May 19 2015, @01:15AM
Yeah, that should be "downmodded" in the first sentence. I know. I missed it in preview.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Tuesday May 19 2015, @04:25AM
There's a difference between being an asshole and being sarcastic towards an asshole. Someone else seems to have already given you a point for that. I'm refraining from giving out points to you because I want to see the abuse they are talking about on this sight, and not a flamewar over this topic. (Although I think you deserved the bump up to a 3.) Right now, I'm not seeing many good examples given by the complaining ACs. I'm starting to think most of the ACs are trolling on this topic about trolling.
TL;DR: Don't beat yourself up over this.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Tuesday May 19 2015, @05:01AM
There's a difference between being an asshole and being sarcastic towards an asshole. Someone else seems to have already given you a point for that.
Yep, and it can be a fine line, especially if the person you're responding to wasn't being too horrible to begin with. You might think you're just penning a scathing bit of wit about how completely wrong someone is, but to others you might just come across like a jerk instead. I like making jokes, but usually leave off the excess sarcasm because, more often than not, it just interferes with the point I was trying to make. Sometimes, though, I can't resist. I just assume I'll get downmodded or ignored for it, though, and don't worry about it. :)
Right now, I'm not seeing many good examples given by the complaining ACs. I'm starting to think most of the ACs are trolling on this topic about trolling.
I've seen this "harmful moderation! omg!" thing floating around for a while, and every time I've checked the examples they've been appropriately modded more often than not, except for technicalities over whether it should be marked "troll" vs "flamebait" vs "overrated". Usually it's a case of someone making a good point but lacing it with insults, or saying something inoffensive but fairly off-topic. It's stuff that can easily be solved with a "don't be a dick" proofreading before pressing submit.
Now, what we really need to fix is the quality of trolling on this site. The systemd trolling had some clever moments where the author tied the troll in nicely with the topic -- I saw a few even manage to get upmodded instead of marked offtopic -- but overall the troll quality on SN has been pretty damn poor. Too much same-topic spam and offtopic shitposting, not enough clever trolling.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @07:13PM
Here are some bad mods that I saw recently:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7488&cid=184067 [soylentnews.org]: 0, Flamebait (it was incorrectly modded Troll too)
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7488&cid=184045 [soylentnews.org]: 0, Offtopic (although it is completely on topic)
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7488&cid=184071 [soylentnews.org]: 2, Flamebait
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:46PM
Agreeing with the posters' biases does not make downmoderations to it bad. As for that last one, there's nothing wrong there, thats an example of the community fixed a perceived bad mod; the rest are modded correctly.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @11:19PM
They were all modded incorrectly. Whoever moderated them improperly like that should not be allowed to moderate again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2015, @09:13AM
Whoever moderated them improperly like that should not be allowed to moderate again.
I imagine a hell, fire, dark, Fox News on a TV you cannot turn off, and there, there, are posts on Soylent News that you cannot mod down, even though they are so blatantly wrong, both in fact and in tenor. You strive for the "troll" button, but the harder you strain, the further away it appears to be. No virgins. Hell, no furries. No nothing, and nothing to contribute. And then it hits you, you are not in Hell, you are just an AC on Soylent News, with no mod privileges. Or at least not enough of them. Oh, the suffering. If only someone, perhaps and admin, could feel your pain. But they never seem to care, because they know what you are here for. Godspeed, Improperly modded AC.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Marand on Tuesday May 19 2015, @01:43AM
First one: probably should have been marked "offtopic" instead, but downmodding made sense. Flamebait still makes sense, though, because it reads as a deliberately inflammatory comment. Why else would it have "Shrillary" in there? That's no different than gewg's obsession with derogatory names to use in place of "Microsoft"
Second: It's an article about diet and the AC is, instead, bitching about language semantics. Correctly modded offtopic. Sometimes you can get away with an offtopic or tangential remark like that, but it's a gamble. I've gotten my share of offtopic mods for the same sort of thing.
Third: I don't get the flamebait mod there, but it's only showing "flamebait" on the side because none of the other mod types outnumbered it. Easily fixed by anybody with modpoints that wants to throw another mod on there.
Overall, the system is working well enough. If you were willing to do something other than bitch in AC comments, like make an account, you could actually get the modpoints to fix it yourself. And, before you even try to weasel out of it, you can use an anonymous mailer like guerrillamail.com to sign up, and you can continue to post anonymously even after signing up.
If you really care about the moderation, stop bitching and start fixing. I browse at -1 to fix abuses and upmod good AC comments; do you?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @07:49PM
A few more examples of comments that were unfairly modded down:
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7238&cid=176900 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7242&cid=176930 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7241&cid=176943 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7243&cid=176975 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7241&cid=177013 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7245&cid=177038 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7248&cid=177202 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7249&cid=177230 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7250&cid=177265 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7253&cid=177345 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7272&cid=177792 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7276&cid=177858 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7276&cid=177865 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7276&cid=177929 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7281&cid=178018 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7290&cid=178231 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7297&cid=178408 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7297&cid=178410 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7297&cid=178411 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7309&cid=178923 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7309&cid=178955 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7311&cid=178960 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7312&cid=179024 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7313&cid=179035 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7317&cid=179316 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7317&cid=179324 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7322&cid=179333 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7346&cid=180043 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7357&cid=180219 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7361&cid=180628 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7369&cid=180643 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7371&cid=180700 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7373&cid=180716 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7373&cid=180726 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7373&cid=180735 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7373&cid=180751 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7373&cid=180752 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7382&cid=181010 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7384&cid=181070 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181169 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181183 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181184 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181185 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181191 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7388&cid=181215 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181293 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181296 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181297 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181303 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181307 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181313 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181314 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7390&cid=181316 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7391&cid=181331 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7391&cid=181367 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7398&cid=181431 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7405&cid=181721 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7406&cid=181743 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7412&cid=181824 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7423&cid=182000 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7421&cid=182111 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7424&cid=182122 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7424&cid=182130 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7424&cid=182143 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7429&cid=182214 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7432&cid=182216 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7432&cid=182222 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7432&cid=182224 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7432&cid=182232 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7432&cid=182235 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182254 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182255 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182257 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182262 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182264 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182268 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182272 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7425&cid=182280 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7445&cid=182848 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7445&cid=182854 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183209 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183210 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183211 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183213 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183218 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7459&cid=183227 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7458&cid=183229 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7460&cid=183248 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7466&cid=183505 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7466&cid=183514 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7472&cid=183627 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7470&cid=183748 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183835 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183836 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183837 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183839 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183851 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7478&cid=183854 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7479&cid=183879 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7480&cid=183888 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7480&cid=183889 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7483&cid=183934 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7483&cid=183938 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7483&cid=183945 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7484&cid=183978 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7485&cid=183996 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7486&cid=184001 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7485&cid=184003 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7485&cid=184008 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7494&cid=184321 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7494&cid=184325 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7493&cid=184333 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7496&cid=184382 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7496&cid=184391 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7497&cid=184429 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7498&cid=184470 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7500&cid=184576 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7503&cid=184678 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7503&cid=184689 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7503&cid=184699 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7503&cid=184701 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7504&cid=184718 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7504&cid=184720 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7504&cid=184729 [soylentnews.org]
http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=7504&cid=184741 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @07:55PM
If I'm not mistaken, that's a list of comments that Tork posted as AC.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 18 2015, @12:40PM
Same thing happened to my server April 28th. Much sympathy and commiseration.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by zafiro17 on Monday May 18 2015, @01:49PM
Those early days were fast and furious, with a huge amount of drama, dissent, and disdain. Glad they're behind us.
That said, 'fast and furious' is a recipe for making mistakes. No surprise that some mistakes were made. Clean it up, patch the breach, make sure it doesn't happen again, and move on with life. These days, spam is a nuisance but still more tolerable than some of the other things happening when servers get breached.
Surprised nobody started a paranoid thread here about the breach being actually the work of the CIA/NSA/FBI, hoping to infiltrate our little band of nitwits ... oops, I've said too much already.
Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis - Jack Handey
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:58PM
Dude, you commented on the wrong story. You want this one [soylentnews.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:53PM
Why choose to be pioneers on IPv6 when so many
security principles and tools that experienced admins
use to secure things are not applicable on IPv6?
It reminds me of the days when much software wouldn't
run on 64-bit hardware, due to developers writing
bugs that were masked on 32-bit platforms. That took
a good 10 years to sort out, 64-bit being common now.
But I don't think IPv6 will be common before I retire.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @02:02PM
Because when it got to the point I would have to setup NAT to properly interface off-site servers with ours, I said "fuck it", and put IPv6 entries and saved everyone a lot of headache, vs having to deal with a spilt DNS setup, or other madness. End-to-end routability is a good thing, and has drastically reduced the amount of pain we have to do to make everything talk to everything.
Still always moving
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:21PM
Why not use a VPN?
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Monday May 18 2015, @03:40PM
Same problem. Bridging two 192.168.x.x networks proved to be too much hassle. NAT is a hack on the best of days, and for DNS to work, I would have had to populate it with internal addresses which in turn would complicate other issues. My general opinion is if NAT can be avoided, it should be avoided.
Still always moving
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @06:30PM
Why is the infrastructure for this site so convoluted? It's not a particularly complex site, even when including the wiki, IRC, and other offerings.
(Score: 1) by Frost on Monday May 18 2015, @08:06PM
IPv4 address pressure is causing lots of problems for servers everywhere. Unless you can run your entire site on one host you're going to have to deal with such craziness at some point.
(Score: 1) by Frost on Monday May 18 2015, @07:44PM
What is the address of the SMTP server that got blacklisted? I'd like to add it to my whitelist.
(Score: 2) by NCommander on Tuesday May 19 2015, @05:45AM
IPv4: 72.14.184.41
IPv6: 2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe6e:311b
Still always moving