Vegans are 43 percent more likely to suffer bone fractures, study shows:
Vegans may be significantly more likely to develop bone fractures than meat-eaters, a new study revealed.
The large, longitudinal study published Sunday in the journal BMC Medicine, revealed that there were 19.4 more cases of fractures in vegans and 4.1 more cases in vegetarians for every 1,000 people over 10 years.
"This is the first comprehensive study and the largest study to date to look at the risks of both total fractures (fractures occurring anywhere in the body) and fractures at different sites in people of different habitual dietary habits," the study's lead author, Tammy Tong, a nutritional epidemiologist at the Nuffield Department of Population Health at the University of Oxford, said in an email to CNN.
Journal Reference:
Tammy Y. N. Tong, Paul N. Appleby, Miranda E. G. Armstrong, et al. Vegetarian and vegan diets and risks of total and site-specific fractures: results from the prospective EPIC-Oxford study [open], BMC Medicine (DOI: 10.1186/s12916-020-01815-3)
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @01:37PM (7 children)
They are 100% more likely to suffer being insufferable.
(Score: 5, Touché) by helel on Tuesday November 24 2020, @02:37PM (4 children)
I take it you're vegan then?
(Score: 4, Touché) by DannyB on Tuesday November 24 2020, @03:14PM (3 children)
Don't ask!
Don't you know the rule? . . .
Q. How do you tell if someone is a vegan?
A. You don't have to tell, they will tell you!
The Centauri traded Earth jump gate technology in exchange for our superior hair mousse formulas.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by captain normal on Tuesday November 24 2020, @06:44PM (1 child)
"You don't have to tell, they will tell you!"...But only if you offer them meat.
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 3, Touché) by sjames on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:32PM
Or mention food or see an animal (even a cloud that looks like a bunny). Note, that's not all vegans but there are plenty of THOSE vegans.
It seems impractical to me. I don't see how food could possibly be fresh after shipping it 25 light years.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by driverless on Tuesday November 24 2020, @11:17PM
Malnutrition as a lifestyle choice. Who would have thought there'd be consequences?
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:25PM (1 child)
Still better than Trumpers. They threaten actual violence.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday November 26 2020, @06:04AM
It's leftists who have been doing the actual rioting and arson.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @01:59PM (7 children)
if you cook 'em right
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @02:08PM (5 children)
are they kosher? asking for a friend.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:35PM (4 children)
Definitely not. Humans are extremely biologically similar to pigs, which is why pig parts are often transplanted into humans. Disturbing but true.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:39PM (3 children)
I'm not a religious scholar, but I don't believe any biological similarity of humans and pigs matters for the purposes of kosher rules.
But as I believe the only mammals permitted for consumption are ruminants with cloven hooves, this does exclude both pigs and humans, as neither species ruminates (and humans don't have hooves, cloven or otherwise).
(Score: 2) by DECbot on Tuesday November 24 2020, @11:12PM
I don't think you've had the pleasure to meet my old Coast Guard roommate.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday November 24 2020, @11:19PM
Bill Lumbergh's offspring would.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hendrikboom on Wednesday November 25 2020, @12:02AM
So can we eat the devil?
(Score: 4, Touché) by Gaaark on Tuesday November 24 2020, @02:29PM
and their bones are like the bones in tins of salmon: easily broken up and eaten.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 24 2020, @02:00PM (9 children)
Anyone whose diet is so intentionally jacked up that their system starts treating not one but two major food groups as toxic gets no sympathy from me.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday November 24 2020, @03:18PM
You can expect to hear from PETA* about that post!
*People Eating Tasty Animals
The Centauri traded Earth jump gate technology in exchange for our superior hair mousse formulas.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @03:47PM (7 children)
What are you even talking about? Most people take up vegetarianism and veganism as moral choices, rather than dietary.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:56PM
Whooosh
(Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:17AM (5 children)
And it fucks their systems up so horribly that if they get beef broth in a meal that was supposed to be vegan, it makes them ill. We're not talking poison or a food allergy they were born with, they made themselves intolerant of fucking broth.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:04PM (1 child)
No, no it doesn't. My sister was a vegan for 15 years, she never had any issues coming back to eating meat. What you're describing sounds psychological.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @09:15PM
The last time I looked into the research on this, there were three factors at play that leads to this belief. First is the psychogenic aspect because people believe it, so it becomes sort of self-fulfilling from that alone, or from psychological distress of having broken your diet or indirectly killed something, etc. Second is that meat, specifically what people tend eat to break their diet, tends to have a vastly different nutritional and ingredient profile than what they are used to eating and such changes can cause problem for a few days due to a couple of temporary factors, which is usually compounded by the large portions used (It is worth mentioning that the same factors apply to any large dietary change even without the meat/non-meat dichotomy). Third is that there are legitimate accounts of people developing actual meat allergies as vegan children and adults developing lactose intolerance, due to removal of animal sources, that leads to the widespread belief such things are common or can occur in non-susceptible populations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:04PM (1 child)
I too, enjoy Ron White's comedy.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday November 28 2020, @11:55AM
He's hilarious but I've also actually seen that shit happen. I'm the kind of bastard who'll straight up lie to a vegan who's not doing it because of a pre-existing allergy or intolerance about the meat content of something, just so I don't have to hear them whine as much about us horrible omnivores.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:07PM
Also, people aren't born with food allergies, they develop for allergies during childhood.
(Score: 5, Disagree) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Tuesday November 24 2020, @03:55PM (26 children)
Humans are omnivores. Nature designed them to eat meat. I respect the vegans' reasons for wanting to avoid it, but however much they want to believe they can survive without it, the hard fact remains that they're denying their bodies important nutrients that can only be found in meat in the quality and quantity the very makeup of their physiology requires.
I'm not surprised one bit.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by DECbot on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:53PM (15 children)
I respect the vegetarians' reason to avoid slaughtering animals. However, as a mammal, if you don't have a lactose intolerance, I find the choice to avoid dairy absurd. Likewise for choosing to not consume honey and unfertilized eggs. We are omnivores--we evolved to eat this stuff. I understand avoiding to slaughter animals and avoiding meat products where you don't know how it was processed or if the animal was mistreated or if you're just morally opposed to raising animal just for slaughter, but I don't see the source for moral outrage from consuming food from animals that does not harm the animal, like milk, eggs, and honey.
Next time a person tells you they are vegan or vegetarian, check their shoes, watch band, bag, and perhaps jacket--good chance that any one of those might be leather. If so, remind them it is bad for the environment to be so wasteful--to raise cattle for the hide and toss all the meat.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 4, Informative) by acid andy on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:00PM (3 children)
Therein lies the problem. Have you heard anything about factory farming? Yes, you could start your own smallholding or only purchase from a known ethical farm that doesn't send their animals to slaughter, and some vegetarians do, but usually such options are prohibitively expensive or completely unavailable.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DECbot on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:50PM (2 children)
In the city, certainly. In the country it is a little bit more possible, but like you said, it is more expensive or more work for yourself. This is where you have to know the people in your community--the farmers, butchers, and so forth. Now, it's fair if you call me a hypocrite because I don't uphold this myself. In my ideal world, I would be able and wiling to do this. About all I do right know is check the labels to ensure my food isn't raised, caught (fish), or processed in China.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:09PM (1 child)
I won't call you a hypocrite because you've been polite and I'm not a sanctimonious prick.
Well, not on this occasion... :P
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 5, Interesting) by DECbot on Tuesday November 24 2020, @11:44PM
I do see this point of view. It is very similar to the Seventh Day Adventists. The back story here is the Old Testament character Daniel was captured by gentiles and made a slave adviser to the king. Given that Daniel was a Jew, he can only eat kosher prepared meats. Giving there wasn't a Jewish priest to certify the manner in which the animals were slaughtered and ensuring pork wasn't making it into any of the dishes, Daniel decided to abstain from all meats as a wait to remain faithful to his religion. Remove the religion from this story, and you have the Jewish priest acting as the FDA certifying that all meat products are from healthy animals slaughtered in a specific way and processed cleanly without blood pooling in the carcass and so forth. Back to the present day, Seventh Day Adventist sprang forth a few decades after the American rise of the meat packing plants, and thus plausible reaction to insecurity of the meat processing industry ability to properly process meat. I see it as a logical step from lacking confidence in the dawn of the 20th century meat packing plants to reading a story in the Bible about how Daniel overcame living in a culture with "unclean" meat preparation and concluding that it would be wise to follow Daniel's example. Current Seventh Day Adventists vegetarianism is the continuation of that belief and thus became a core teaching and tradition within the community. (though it is observed that it isn't universally practiced.)
If you don't have faith that your food is raised in a healthily manner and not processed cleanly, I can see why you would abstain. I too have some concerns about processed foods that are more of an engineered product than something your great grandmother would make in her kitchen. I think some of that heavily processed stuff we have not evolved to consume, like refined sugars and sugar substitutes, HFCS, MSG, most of your chemically derived preservatives, and perhaps the super fine flours. I don't imagine that I'm all that successful of avoiding these, but I do try to refrain from them when I can.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:27PM (4 children)
Can you name an adult mammal that consumes milk in the wild?
Milk is for babies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @07:52PM
Feral cats will sometimes return to their mothers and suckle during the season.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:17PM (1 child)
Homo sapiens. And yes, we evolved for it.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:22PM
Define "in the wild" properly, and you *may* be able to make that argument. I wouldn't be on it with a definition that anyone else would be likely to accept.
That said, humans are one of the most neotenous species, so that we should retain characteristics of children into old age is not surprising.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:56AM
Absolutely any calf (and some lambs and foals) that can get away with it right up to adulthood, and they'll make the attempt if you leave them pastured with their dams too long (pasture is effectively "in the wild" as it's a totally natural environment for these animals). Sometimes the mother isn't assertive enough about weaning them and they'll actually injure her in pursuit of milk.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:31PM (1 child)
Dairy cattle are treated horribly, in general. Possibly some tiny boutique dairy runs differently.
If you feel it is unethical to perpetuate animal suffering, then it naturally follows to remove all animal products from your life.
The thing about this study that is surprising to me is that there is tons of calcium in green leafy vegetables. I wonder if the study results were due to vitamin D deficiency. Too bad we don't have a breakdown of prevalence by latitude as a proxy for sunlight exposure.
(Score: 2) by NickM on Wednesday November 25 2020, @01:08AM
I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Tuesday November 24 2020, @10:47PM (3 children)
Well, if you are going to start being logical about things, why are leather jackets ok but fur coats are murder?
One job constant is that good employers have low turnover, so opportunities to join good employers are relatively rare.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DECbot on Tuesday November 24 2020, @11:10PM (1 child)
I don't know, because people will eat beef but not mink? The cow is getting slaughtered regardless if you're going to wear its skin--so we might as well make something useful from its hide. Though I don't claim the people throwing paint at fur coats or screaming "fur is murder" are logical.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @07:05AM
Well to reduce waste maybe people should start eating mink then...
In Denmark they could even sell it in wet markets like the ones in Wuhan, China. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @02:21PM
Because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by crafoo on Tuesday November 24 2020, @07:07PM (9 children)
I don't. It's an absurd denial of the natural world we inhabit. It's an arrogant, childish demand that we acknowledge their preferred lie about reality: that it isn't violent and many times cruel, or that it wouldn't be if we all just held hands and tried super-hard.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday November 24 2020, @07:54PM (6 children)
Who demanded your acknowledgement?
Nature is. Often, but not always. Who exactly tried to tell you that it isn't? A citation would be handy.
Humans taking part in intense cruelty and violence, or not, is something they absolutely do have control over. To pretend otherwise is childish.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 3, Touché) by darkfeline on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:33AM (5 children)
> Who demanded your acknowledgement?
The vegans themselves, during every waking moment of their existence. At least the noisy ones; perhaps there are vegans that do not shove their ideals down others' throats, but naturally it's hard to identify them.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:50AM (2 children)
Somehow, I've managed to get through my life without meeting any significant number of noisy vegans or vegetarians. A few virtue signaling noise makers in restaurants maybe, nobody has ever got in my face. Maybe they avoid people like me?
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by DECbot on Wednesday November 25 2020, @06:10AM
It's like talking to the fundamentalists. If they think they can convert you, or if you are being obnoxious about your dietary choice, or if you are persecuting their choice; then the conversation gets noisy. Generally, if you state your dietary preference clearly yet keep a libertarian view--do what you want so long as you don't remove other people's choices, and I shall respect your choice--vegetarians, vegans, and omnivores can peacefully coexist. That may mean some veggie/vegan options at company provided meals. Though I have no qualms about watching other people eat salad, boca burgers, and gluten free non-dairy veggie pizzas.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday November 25 2020, @09:51AM
I know I do!
But then, doesn't everyone? ;)
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday November 25 2020, @09:50AM (1 child)
Yes. Yes, there are.
Exactly the point.
I'm personally a lot more vocal about it on this site than off it but as I see it people want to discuss and argue about their (and my) beliefs on here. We enjoy it, and those of us that don't, don't need to read it. It should be noted that this topic was posted by a meat-eater and IMHO some of the most vociferous comments on here are from meat-eaters.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 26 2020, @10:03AM
It comes from three things, I believe. First is that many people tend to judge groups they don't belong to by their most vocal and visible members, which tend to be the most extreme and intolerant ones too. Second is the strength this mode of communication brings, as people's behavior tends to become more extreme when they are anonymous, have the perceived numerical advantage, view themselves as correct, and have minimal repercussions for their actions. Third is the preemptive-strike mentality, where people will commonly strike first when they think some sort of attack on their view is imminent. Put together, it's not surprising that the pro-omnivore comments come on rather strong compared to the average. If this were somewhere vegans were more common, it wouldn't be surprising for this story to have had a different slant and the pro-herbivore comments to be the "vociferous" ones.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:50PM (1 child)
Then don't be vegan.
It is strange that some people insist on denigrating vegans because they choose to live according to their own ethics. And, the vitriol with which some do it, it is as if these people feel personally offended that vegans are living their lives in concordance with their ethics.
Are you are secretly ashamed / self loathing for your own weakness that you choose to kill simply because eating meat is enjoyable to you? It is pretty hard, as an ethical being, to justify killing/inducing suffering in other creatures simply for pleasure. If not this, then why do you care how others choose to live their lives?
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @10:01PM
It parallels the opposition to gay marriage and abortion. You don't like it? THEN DON'T DO IT. End of story.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Tokolosh on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:05PM (1 child)
Vegans have the highest probability of telling someone not to smoke. You know, because smokers are running up healthcare costs for everyone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @10:07PM
Vegans have the highest probability of being smacked in the mouth when they peer over your shoulder and tut-tut about your tinned meat lunch.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by acid andy on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:40PM (8 children)
Vegan here. What a friendly, welcoming place. I'd expect nothing less on an article posted by my dearest and most esteemed friend, Runaway1936.
All I'm going to say is that with any diet you need to be aware of whether you're missing any important nutrients and attempting a vegan diet naively makes that extremely likely. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it as I'm yet to find a nutrient essential to humans that can't be obtained in a plant-derived form, albeit at often increased cost and/or reduced availability.
Humans being humans, a lot of vegans probably take the naive approach, so such statistics don't surprise me.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:06PM (1 child)
DannyB was right!
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:35PM
Ha yeah I saw that. I'd love to post comebacks to some of these jokes but really, it ain't worth it--would be seen to validate their points.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Hartree on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:44PM (3 children)
Having people eating specific diets certainly provides a willing set of subjects for nutrition studies. :)
My attitude is eat what you like, just try to make sure you get the nutrients that might be a bit short in a given diet.
The thing I find interesting is that pescetarians and lacto-ovo vegetarians were about as likely as vegans to have bone fractures. That pretty much rules out amino acid shortages. I wonder if this held across people who were taking a multivitamin (thus making B-12 and other deficiencies unlikely).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @10:50PM (1 child)
> My attitude is eat what you like.
https://www.lyrics.com/track/1661070/Grace+Slick/Silver+Spoon [lyrics.com]
Throw down all your
Silver spoons, eat
All of the raw meat
With your hands
Pick it up piece by piece
Pick it up piece by piece
Pick it up piece by piece
Where are the bodies
For dinner?
I want my food!
What if you were
Starving to death and
They only food you had
Was me - what would
You say to the cannibal
Question? Would your
Answer be perfectly
Free?
Your mama told you never
To eat your friends
With your fingers and
Hands, but I say you
Ought to eat what
You will - shove it
In your mouth any way
That your can.
You think that I will come
To your mouth, looking for
A home. But I get stuck
Sideways in your throat
Like a good old chicken
Bone.
Where are the bodies for dinner?
I want my food!
Stay out the kitchen children
The cook is cleaning his gun
He just got back from the open
Market - shooting his food on
The run.
Your mama told you never
To eat your friends
With your fingers and
Hands, but I say you
Ought to eat what
You will - shove it
In your mouth any way
That your can.
Sharpen your teeth for the
Family feast - let all the
Hungry drool roll down
Your chin. Hide the human
And bring out the beast.
Let all the animal games begin!
Where are the bodies for dinner?
I want my food!
You could leave to dine on
Your friends - pour their
Bones into a cannibal soup
Muscles like steak
Blood like wine - save
The brains to feed to troops
Your mama told you never
To eat your friends
With your fingers and
Hands, but I say you
Ought to eat what
You will - shove it
In your mouth any way
That your can.
Scarlet juices ozing
Slow - boiling in a
Human sea.
Is it human dinner
You're talking about?
Then slice me tender
Raw and lean
Where are the bodies
For dinner?
I want my food!
Oily fingers can hardly
Wait - bodies slumped
Face in plate
Wake up the drunks
The coffers on
The fourteenth course
Has come and gone.
So long
All day sucker
Your candy has
Come and gone
And its left you
With your mouth
Wide open.
Just humming
Cannibal songs.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday November 25 2020, @04:52AM
Always loved her singing.
Interestingly, Slick ultimately became (mostly) vegan.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @02:16PM
Maybe more of these bunch were more likely to cycle, do rock climbing, or other "hip and healthier" activities that make them more likely to break bones?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PinkyGigglebrain on Tuesday November 24 2020, @10:43PM
so its not going to be an option for everyone. If you've got the money and supporting infrastructure for the diet that is great, but that is not the case everywhere.
I once tried going vegetarian, even tried full Vegan for a couple months, it didn't work for me due to several factors including travel for work, disposable income, and my health at the time. Where I was sent for work didn't have Vegan foods available and the added costs even when I was at home was too much of a burden on my budget. I switched back to a balanced and cheap omnivorous diet and not only did my food expenditures drop by a noticeable amount but I started loosing weight with the side benefit that I wasn't hungry all the time.
Not to sound insulting and this is not directed at you specifically but reading all the comments in this thread the more I think about it the more Vegan sounds like another form of virtue signalling [psychologytoday.com].
If it works for your fantastic, but even you point out it has problems. This study highlights that Vegan diets may not work for everyone for one reason or another and may a need closer examination to ensure that they really do provide everything needed to be healthy and not lacking in some trace mineral or amino acid that no one realizes is so important.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @07:14AM
It might be more than just missing a nutrient. The body responds to digestion, and in different ways to different materials. I feel fucking amazing after a big snack of ~1kg appropriately prepared broccoli, but not after the same mass of bread. The body anecdotally responds to red meat differently than to plant protein. Makes sense. Meat generally takes a different kind of work than plant, in the wild, to capture. A kind of work that favours fast-twitch muscle, etc.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Tuesday November 24 2020, @04:50PM (6 children)
Need Azuma's weigh in here...
Bones and bone strength is very complex. Calcium is important, but there are several other nutrients that are necessary for bone strength, for example vitamin D, potassium, phosphorus, magnesium, vitamin K, and I suspect some more subtle enzymes or something that helps chemically tie it all together, some of which may not be well understood yet. (which is fairly evident from this study).
A friend's mom who recently passed away at 101, and was truly feisty and strong, and an RN, took several holistic supplements including strontium for bone health. She ate a well-balanced diet, occasional red meat, more often seafood.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:30PM (5 children)
Well, remember that anecdote is not the singular of data. But that doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Strontium is know for binding into bones, which is why all the hooraw back in the 1960's or 70's about radioactive strontium. How much you should have, however, is a good question. Similarly with Selenium, though you clearly don't need very much of that one. (But check out "milky white disease" https://kr.b-ok.as/book/4380289/eda910 [b-ok.as] http://www.ichacha.net/disease,white%20muscle.html [ichacha.net] [Sorry, the English speaking world seems to have forgotten about it since they figured out all you need to do is add a bit of Selenium to the diet, but it first showed up in New Zealand.])
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @04:37AM (4 children)
The English speaking world seems to have forgotten about pretty much all health benefits that don't come packaged in an overpriced pill produced by a company making billions of dollars...
For instance the next time you're having inflammation, mix a teaspoon of tumeric powder into a cup of whole milk, boil, and drink. It's not some sort of hokey shit, tumeric is a legit anti-inflammatory as well as pain-killer, and the fat in the whole milk aids in your body's absorption - otherwise the tumeric is quickly processed and has minimal effect. This has been shown in studies, but more importantly the effect is extremely pronounced. I learned about this, with more than a little skepticism, after tearing my rotator cuff. And if you've ever had a rotator cuff injury, the pain there is extreme. Turns out a cup of this stuff worked better than naproxen!
The experience has left me very jaded on "modern medicine", which is increasingly becoming a euphemism for big-pharma profit, because you can make this tumeric milk for basically 0 cost and with 0 side effects. Doesn't hurt it's also delicious. Can you imagine how fast a MD would lose his license if he 'prescribed' a cup of tumeric milk? But why? It does work and has been shown to work in various studies as well. It's like if you have any clue about what's going into your body, somehow we don't view it as medicine anymore.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @05:20AM (2 children)
Pro tip: if you don't want to be written off as a loon actually link to the studies that you claim support your position.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday November 26 2020, @06:36AM (1 child)
Turmeric, and its principle active ingredient curcumin, have been the subject of hundreds of studies over the past few decades; so many that anyone paying attention to the field of nutrition should not be demanding references. Nevertheless, here's a link to an abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19594223/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 01 2020, @07:23AM
Well, I read the paper at that abstract, and it doesn't talk about pain mitigation at all.
It does talk about cancer a lot, IBS some, etc. and if your issue was inflammation causing the pain, that would have been good to mention.
Replacement for painkiller vs replacement for anti-inflammatory are different prospects.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Saturday November 28 2020, @03:26PM
I think I will try this, except I'll make it into yogurt after boiling.
Alternatively or additionally, curry.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:06PM (1 child)
I know it goes against the grain, but I skimmed through the report, I particularly enjoyed the implication that meat eaters might suffer less hip fractures as their lard-ass fat protects them better.
One thing I did spot though which might be a problem, I didn't see anything about lifestyle or profession as potential factors in the cause of fractures, so, fun as the results are, I'm of the unqualified opinion that they're not conclusive enough, and won't be unless they repeat the study and they first match vegetarians, vegans, pescetarians, carnivores and omnivores of similar BMI etc. and who have lifestyles or professions where they are exposed to similar risks of fractures occurring, or, match the sets and then subject them to an activity where they all suffer the same potential risk of fractures occurring (e.g. get your matched sets, take them up in aircraft to 30,000 ft, throw them out with a basic parachute*, repeat every month for a couple of years, monitor their bones..).
*optional for vegans, so sanctimonious they'd surely descend like thistledown, protected by the wings of imaginary magic sky fairy minions..
(Score: 3, Touché) by hendrikboom on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:22AM
There has never been a double-blind test that showed that parachutes actually helped survival when falling out of an airplane.
-- hendrik
(Score: 3, Insightful) by istartedi on Tuesday November 24 2020, @05:16PM (8 children)
Women live longer than men, but are also more likely to develop osteoporosis, which obviously leads to bone fractures!
There might be a trade-off between living a few extra years and being able to walk on icy sidewalks without fear.
Seventh Day Adventists [healthline.com], live longer; but they're not universally vegan--more detailed studies might be needed to know how much meat to get rid of, what foods in general to avoid, and which ones you need. AFAIK, the general trend among people who live longer is that they're in communities that not only have a particular diet which tends to have traditional foods, but also traditional religions and social structures.
So. Wanna live a long time? Eat a sensible diet, go to church every week, and do farm chores every day. Boring? OK, fine. Then travel all over, drive a race car, ride a rocket ship, wrestle alligators, run for office, perform in a band and probably die younger. It's a trade-off. TANSTAAFL.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @07:49PM (6 children)
> walk on icy sidewalks without fear
I have something that feels like a super power when I put them on--Snow Grippers aka Ice Cleats!
One example here, https://www.walmart.com/ip/Snow-Grippers-Ice-Cleats-Grips-Crampons-Anti-Slip-Traction-Shoes-Boots-Steel-Studs-Slip-on-Stretch-Footwear-Women-Men-Kids/400856721 [walmart.com]
We live in an area of frequent freeze-thaw in the winter, lots of surface ice & black ice. Cleats are commonly used and make walking on ice feel like dry pavement.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:26AM (5 children)
I've found that the floors of grocery stores are hostile to cleats. They are *hard* and the cleats can't bite into them, so when I'm inside I end up slipping around as if I was on ice.
Do I prefer falling in a grocery store or on a sidewalk?
Neither, please.
So I use a walker when it's icy. Still have to be careful but it stops falls.
-- hendrik
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday November 25 2020, @04:10AM (4 children)
There exist quick on/off cleats, good enough for walking from car to door. Fit in your pocket.
I work on sloping ice all winter so my work boots have spikes permanently attached. Have found the only ones worth a damn are the plain spikes like tiny nails. Anything with a lateral shape tends to encourage lateral slippage.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Funny) by istartedi on Wednesday November 25 2020, @06:13PM (1 child)
What would probably be best is retractable cleats, using a good secure mechanical two-state lever on top of your shoes. Of course you know that if anybody tries to do this, they'll probably go the IoT route: No cleat control without an iPhone and the app. Sends data on where you walk. WARNING: batteries may catch fire.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday November 25 2020, @07:27PM
At the very least, that'll keep your feet warm!
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday November 26 2020, @06:04PM (1 child)
Haven't found any that fit my shoes. And are easy enough to put on and take off that I don't have to sit down while I do it. And the stores don't provide chairs at the entrance.
My walker means I effectively have six feet on the ground. Of course, four of them are wheels, but two of those have brakes. And it has a basket to put small amounts of groceries in.
Sure beats falling down.
I've been told that at my age, 50% of broken hip patients die within a year.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Thursday November 26 2020, @08:20PM
Yeah, all problems not so easy to solve, especially if you're dealing with mobility issues. I have some that just strap around the middle of the shoe for town use, easy enough on and off, but my work boots have 'em applied pretty much permanently (tied on with parachute cord, since they like to jump off at inopportune moments).
Good on your walker... yeah, busted hip is bad news for us old farts.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by ChrisMaple on Thursday November 26 2020, @06:51AM
Female hormones play a significant role in lifespan and bone fragility. Until menopause, female hormones tend to protect against heart disease, which gives women a statistical boost for life expectancy. Post-menopause, women's general paucity of sex hormones leads to bone loss. Of course, that's much too simplified, but more details are available if you care to look.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday November 24 2020, @06:48PM (5 children)
Despite claims that some apes are vegetarians, it seems that all of them like some good high protein animal food. For the most part, that means ants and termites, as well as their larvae. The odd spider is mentioned often, but I've never seen what kinds of spiders are preferred. There seems to be a consensus that honey is good. They all seem to agree that eggs are good, and many like small vertebrates. I don't think any simians are strict vegetarians.
In view of the fact that all members of the family agree that small prey is yummy, human vegetarians seem an oddity to me. Nothing in nature, nothing in our heritage, suggests that any of our near kin would turn their noses up at free, or cheap, munchies. Nom nom nom!
Maybe vegans and vegetarians need to rethink their positions again, and take some tips from the rest of the monkey world? Start some ant and termite farms, if nothing else. And, don't let those spiders escape! At least one of our members likes meal worms, so he's getting some much-needed protein. ;^)
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:56PM (1 child)
Obviously, vegetarianism doesn't make sense from an evolutionary perspective, but we've been far beyond food being a limiting factor for humans for some time. Morals, emotions, and dietary preferences are all pointless things to argue about, when the real issue that people are loathe to discuss is sustainable production. Factory farming, monoculture deserts, over- and mis-utilization of pasture, overfishing, chemical dumping and pollution, are all going to bite us in the ass during the next century. Rising ocean temperatures and acidification will collapse food chains across the globe, and potable water levels have been critical for some time. Do you want your grandchildren to be able to /have/ grandchildren?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday November 25 2020, @03:30AM
New food chains will evolve. But it might take a few thousand years. Can we survive that long?
-- hendrik
-- Ia.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday November 24 2020, @09:32PM (1 child)
Neither are cows or horses...though cows come a lot closer than horses do.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday November 25 2020, @04:12AM
Nothing delights a horse like access to a bag of dog food, or better yet, a bag of meat meal.
And I've seen sheep nibble on a carcass.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by NickM on Wednesday November 25 2020, @01:34AM
I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @06:52PM
Fresh vegetables in the fruit & produce sections of grocery stores that are kept wet [poisoned] with fluoridated water can add to the health complications.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:07PM
This study is either dishonest or incompetent. It's right there in
the study:
"Future research should also focus on possible effects of other
nutrients or biological markers on fracture risks, for example
circulating vitamin D, vitamin B12, or IGF-I, which may vary by degree
of animal-sourced food intake [52,53,54]. "
Except it is very well known that B12 deficiency causes increase in
fractures, and vegans are at high risk if they don't supplement, (B12
supplementation is a must for a vegan diet, which many ethical vegans
don't bother with). Here's a reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperhomocysteinemia [wikipedia.org]
So basically they didn't adjust for an obvious variable in order to
get a historical headline. There was a similar study out recently
that concluded vegans are a higher risk for stroke, for the very same
reasons.
There are two kinds of vegans. Ones who do it for health reasons, and
others who do it for ethical reasons. The ethical vegans are the most
unbearable, egotistical, unlikable, nonsensical people you'll ever
meet. The vegans who do it for health reasons however are quite
reasonable and very convincing if you give them a chance.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 24 2020, @08:49PM
This study is either dishonest or incompetent. It's right there in
the study:
"Future research should also focus on possible effects of other
nutrients or biological markers on fracture risks, for example
circulating vitamin D, vitamin B12, or IGF-I, which may vary by degree
of animal-sourced food intake [52,53,54]. "
Except it is very well known that B12 deficiency causes increase in
fractures, and vegans are at high risk if they don't supplement, (B12
supplementation is a must for a vegan diet, which many ethical vegans
don't bother with). Here's a reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperhomocysteinemia [wikipedia.org]
So basically they didn't adjust for an obvious variable in order to
get a hysterical headline. There was a similar study out recently
that concluded vegans are a higher risk for stroke, for the very same
reasons.
Post was edited to remove some flamebait material.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Wednesday November 25 2020, @09:16AM (4 children)
Malnourishment is malnourishment.
You can wrap it up in fancy words and "compensate" for it by taking protein shakes or multivitamins all you like. The fact is that at the core, you're malnourished as a vegan. If you weren't malnourished, you could lead an entirely vegan life out in the wild and never suffer any ill-effects from it, even as tiny as making yourself more susceptible to bone fractures, illness or mild vitamin deficiency or whatever.
Now, it's the modern age - you're capable of compensating for that malnourishment with artificial supplements, for the most part. Of course you are. Modern science is amazing. That doesn't mean that it's a sensible choice to be doing.
It also blows out the water the oft-repeated concept that our ancestors were entirely veggie/vegan... that simply could not have happened with anything approaching a human because of things like this (and that they didn't have a multivitamin tablet just sitting in their kitchen cupboard). If they did, or if you went back far enough, they were an *entirely* different animal altogether, the same way that we now have genes to process milk which we didn't use to have.
Vegetarianism is no nearly so bad, but veganism is just planned malnourishment, and encouraging others to do it for "their health" is a nonsense. Moral choice, sure, but don't pretend that like almost all moral choices it doesn't come at a cost. In this case the cost is almost permanent malnourishment throughout your veganist periods of your life. People have to understand this. People have to understand that their moral choice to be malnourished voluntarily, supplement artificially, in order to prove a moral point is a choice that comes as a bundle. Advertising it as a normal way of life is even potentially harmful - kids and teenagers (especially girls) will follow this example and not know the complete choice that they are making. And, yes, parents have been charged with failing to give children an adequate diet because they put babies on veganist regimes, which killed and/or significantly harmed the baby in its formative years.
Do what you like, but make clear: You're making the choice to be malnourished in order to... whatever noble cause... protect animals, reduce bloodshed, live off local produce, live a sustainable life in the modern age, whatever it is. They are all noble causes, but they come at a cost. In the case of veganism the cost is imposed malnutrition which it is necessary for your health to supplement with artificially-produced supplements, forever.
Stop pretending otherwise, or trying to avoid that fact. And stop encouraging others to follow your example without making that absolutely explicit.
If you're proud to be malnourished and have to live off artificial supplements, say so. There's no shame in the truth. But don't pretend that it's a normal way of life, that everyone already understands that, that everyone could follow you, or that it's the right thing to do to encourage people - wittingly or not -into that same action without that knowledge.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday November 25 2020, @10:37AM (2 children)
OK, I'll bite (are you made of vegetable matter BTW?).
The body doesn't care that these supplements are "artificial"--what does that even mean? Are you advocating only eating simple, unprocessed foods? There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do but in the modern age it's not a necessity for many people.
Nourishment from processed foods or supplements is still nourishment. I can't tell if you're trying to hint you believe the supplements might be somewhat inadequate in a diet--you don't say so--but it may well be the case. Anyone relying on them certainly needs to consider the amounts they plan to consume and any potential side-effects.
I don't see how that follows. Had I been living in the wild I quite possibly wouldn't have become a vegan. Thankfully that's not a decision I have to make today. But any diet I might hypothetically rely on in the wild is not relevant to how nourished, or not, I am now.
I fully accept that my vegan diet has risks and disadvantages associated with it. If I die earlier than I otherwise would have as a result of it, I consider that an equitable trade for the lives of the animals I haven't eaten.
Yes anyone that wants to become vegan needs to be well-informed about it. It helps that it's become much more popular in the west in recent years so awareness is growing--both among consumers and producers (for example vegan food products are more likely to be labeled now and to even just be available). I know that since I became a vegan I actually became much more aware of human nutritional needs and how to get them--turns out there were nutrients I was missing out on before I even went vegetarian!
I do believe it's right to encourage vegan and vegetarian diets in adults because the benefits to the environment are massive. At the same time it's right to encourage a full understanding of the issues, although saying "malnourishment is malnourishment" and claiming it's not sensible are not how I would do that.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 2) by ledow on Wednesday November 25 2020, @11:14AM (1 child)
Hint: Supplements are not food. Not even close. If you ask a doctor to choose between even the best medical food substitute (e.g. that given to patients unable to eat), and actual food, they'll advise you to go for actual food if they have an ounce of professionalism.
Absent meat in your diet, you are malnourished and hence need to supplement to stay healthy. Claiming that supplement is just another ordinary part of your diet is dubious. It's like saying "I don't need to drink water, I just take this water supplement." There isn't a doctor in the land that thinks that that's a good idea compared to just drinking water.
Your lifestyle is entirely reliant on man-made supplements, while (not necessarily you personally) simultaneously advocating for the removal of meat production. This is a food-chain problem. It's making the food chain even more reliant on human processes and processing while (again, not necessarily you personally) saying that it's more natural, the "ancient human" way of life, etc.
Your lifestyle has environmental benefits, I'm not going to argue that one bit. But the trade-off is a less-rounded diet, artificially propped up by guesswork of what nutrients your body actually needs, and then taking very particular and isolated nutrients all together en-masse. As such studies suggest (I wouldn't say prove) - you're missing out on things still. Food isn't just a collection of vitamin letters and X amount of fibre, that's not how it works, it's an incredibly complex biological process with billions of factors in both the food, the processing, the individual and the gut.
It's like handing someone a bottle of each primary colour and then saying "There you go, everything you need for a photorealistic painting". Technically, yes, but you've boiled it down a few steps too far and then live by precisely feeding each nutrient in amounts for a generated (and ever-changing!) average recommendation for a model human.
There's also an issue here with future generations - if you feed to what the model says, your gut flora will reflect what the model says. You're forcing evolution in your own gut and, via secondary processes, into the next generations (much like the lactose-tolerance genes). You're tuning your body to a very specific and isolated and unnatural (i.e. the things you want do not occur in nature and have to be processed and manufactured in order to exist, and cannot be replicated without that technology) diet, one which you would have trouble replicating in even an economic emergency, let alone an actual emergency. By the time you need those gut flora to process the things you've excluded, it's already too late.
If there is, say, a deadly pandemic, or a food crisis (as your more-ecological-minded community representatives actually predict) in the coming generations, you're not going to be set up to utilise the resources which will be available. Even in times of war, we recognised meat as an essential ingredient to human life for long-term survival.
Your choice is your choice, but it's not without a cost that is *NOT* heavily advertised. And that cost is a deliberate malnutrititive diet and its knock-on effects as per papers like this, countered by a obviously-not-very-well-targeted supplementation even in the best cases.
I'm not claiming as far as "It's the apocalypse and we won't be catering for you" (though that is a consideration in such circumstances, albeit minor in comparison), it's that the recognition that supplementation is somehow "as good as" just eating the human diet is widespread, when it's actually not. Never has been. Quite possibly won't be for a couple of generations at least. You're doing the equivalent of living off those packs you get for people with serious diarrhoea or who can't keep food down. It's not equivalent even then, and no doctor would tell you it was. It's *adequate* at best, better than the alternative of not eating.
That's your choice, but you have to be clear. You're sacrificing your diet for supplementation that isn't equivalent to the thing you sacrificed for it. You are (as a group) malnourished, even with careful supplementation - this study shows one effect of that. It's like someone reading that the human lungs on average process X amount of air per day, and then breathing EXACTLY that amount of purified, filtered air. It's not the same. And when you then go out into a biologically-complex world, you're at a disadvantage - everything from gut flora and immunities (often derived from food exposure) to insufficiently-formed bone structures.
Your lifestyle isn't normal. There's nothing wrong with that. But you have to be very careful about how you advertise it, even obliquely, especially to children, such that you acknowledge the shortcomings of that lifestyle. The same way that I have to admit that fat-heavy processed foods are equally not as ideal. We're banning advertising of fast-food and heavily-processed food in many countries around the world, but there are vanishingly few controls on the sale of a vegan lifestyle or product modified for vegan-diets.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Wednesday November 25 2020, @12:17PM
A largely linguistic distinction.
We're more or less in agreement about this core point but neither of us likes the way the other is framing it. I wouldn't personally use the phrase "less-rounded"--and anyway, compared to what, a hypothetical ideal omnivore diet? Vast swathes of the meat-eating population are not eating a well-rounded diet. You can kill yourself eating burgers and fries all your life, or an Atkins diet. Everyone takes a risk if they make uninformed choices. I'll grant you veganism complicates the process, though.
That's an interesting hypothesis but I'd need to see more evidence to adopt it as a belief. I'm not denying the complexity, just that I would need to see more evidence of any negative or positive effects of missing out on these complex biological aspects. It's not just a simple case of the vegan sources of nutrients being less complex because in some cases vegans will eat a plant or vegetable, that a meat-eater might never have, to get a given nutrient.
No, not necessarily "even with careful supplementation". The study is quite possibly showing the effects of failing to take the correct supplements.
I broadly agree with that.
Thanks for acknowledging that.
It's in its infancy compared to the rest of the food industry. Controls should be about informing people about their nutritional needs and what is or isn't included, rather than trying to scare people away from the diet, in my opinion.
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @04:15PM
It was the case that B12 was in the water, and all your vegetables. It is one of the most abundant vitamins on earth, which is why humans don't make their own. The issue is that we now sterilize everything. Water, food, everything is more or less sterile, i.e. clean, before consumption which kills the bacteria that makes B12. Hence the supplementation.
Farm animals (non-ruminants) get their B12 from supplementation. When you eat animals, that B12 supplement they ate, some of it gets to you. Don't believe me, here's a link for swine:
https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/swine_extension/nutrition/nutritionguide/vitamins/vitamins.htm [ncsu.edu]
Ruminating farm animals in theory can make their own B12, BUT factory farming food they eat isn't suitable for this purpose so they are generally fed supplements as well for example:
https://farmanimalsupplies.co.uk/products/cobalt-b12-selenium [farmanimalsupplies.co.uk]
https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestock-biosecurity/cobalt-deficiency-sheep-and-cattle [wa.gov.au]
So the debate is, where in the food chain do you want to take the supplement, rather than if you should take one at all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2020, @10:37AM
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
- Romans 14:2 ESV