Our Anonymous, Anonymous Coward has submitted the following story:
Motor Trend reports on shenanigans after Hertz employees at the Syracuse, NY airport left early one afternoon... https://www.motortrend.com/news/hertz-car-rental-new-york-empty-desk/
When travelers arrived after those employees left in order to pick up their reserved rentals, and no one was around to help them, some decided to help themselves. Approximately 20 customers simply grabbed keys for whatever car was available (or seeing which cars had the keys left in them) and went on their way. Note that this Hertz location isn't quite dealing in autonomous rentals yet, so pulling a grab 'n go with the keys was in no way an official option.
[...] When the airport realized what was going on, officials tried to contact Hertz but couldn't reach anyone that was on-duty.
[...] It's not clear if everyone who took a vehicle had to later swap it out or faced some sort of penalty.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Monday November 18, @01:17AM (14 children)
Then go elsewhere to rent a car and never get around to posting the yelp review. I can't think of any scenario where I would grab keys and take a car.
Then again, I'm a retired boomer and stealing a car is more a "that's wrong" than "I probably won't get caught and if I get caught I can deal" issue.
Is anyone surprised ChatGPT got replaced by an A.I.?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by aafcac on Monday November 18, @04:23AM
Yep, there's usually other car rental places at an airport. If one isn't open, try another. There are so many issues with just helping yourself to a car, even if you return and pay.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Monday November 18, @10:13AM (9 children)
If you've pre-booked, then you've already spent a substantial sum and may not be able to do that again immediately in a foreign country having just travelled.
Doesn't justify theft, no, but the option to "just go elsewhere" in this circumstance isn't as easy as loading a $1000 deposit onto another credit card while this one may never get refunded in a reasonable time.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Unixnut on Monday November 18, @10:52AM (3 children)
This.
I don't know how it works in the USA, but in Europe you generally have to book a rental in advance for the days you want a car, and more importantly you have to pay the full rental fee in advance.
So if you book a rental for 5 days you have to pay the full 5 days rental before you've arrived at your destination to pick up the vehicle.
If I had arrived after a long (and probably stressful) flight to my destination airport, only to find the rental I already paid for was not available because nobody was there to give me the keys I would have been right fuming angry. Paying another rental company without pre-booking will cost much more (if that is even possible, as all their cars may have already been pre booked by others)
I would not be angry enough to just take a set of keys as I can't be bothered with the legal fallout from such an action. I would call their HQ and rant at them until they sorted out their self inflicted cock-up, but I can understand the sentiment of those who find themselves in such a situation, especially if they have other deadlines and can't wait about for hours arguing on the phone.
I always avoid Hertz as I had some awful rental experiences with them in the past. From the article sounds like the incompetence is not only limited to their European offices.
How on earth can all the employees just decide to leave during their shift? I can only imagine they are so fed up working for the company that they either don't care or actively want to get fired, neither of which bodes well for the long term viability of the company.
My bigger surprise is that the keys were not in some locked key box, but apparently were either in the cars or just hanging somewhere within easy access to the public. That blows my mind. The rentals I've been to have thick steel key boxes with combination locks (presumably to prevent break-ins for car theft). To get the keys the staff have to unlock the box to give you your key, and upon return of the vehicle you have to deposit the keys back in the box.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @02:47PM (1 child)
> you have to pay the full rental fee in advance.
I believe it's a "feature" of US laws that makes it more traditional to take some kind of arbitrary "security hold" deposit upon renting and not actually settle the bill until return.
> Paying another rental company without pre-booking will cost much more
Yeah, like 3x more, if you can even get a car.
> I would call their HQ and rant at them until they sorted out their self inflicted cock-up
This is becoming more and more difficult as time passes. Contacting an actual human being who isn't locked into a very limited scope script it getting to be an extreme challenge. I noticed in a recent dust-up with my health insurance company, they are more than eager to call _you_ on their time, on their terms, to take information about your dis-satisfaction, but reaching them when you are "hot" with the problem? Virtually impossible.
We had a rental car break down (wheel bearing died in the rain) and the customer service (out of India, of course) was very responsive and helpful - scheduled a tow truck and an uber to take us to the airport to get a replacement, but... that was the extent of their capabilities: one job, getting the customers' car towed and getting the customer a new car.
I doubt they have a customer service script for "no agents anywhere on site."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday November 18, @06:21PM
I think the last known copy of "The Cluetrain Manifesto" self ignited a few years ago.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @04:44PM
Across the US, in rental agencies, in used car lots... I have seen a lot of reliance on faith that nobody is going to steal a car - at least during business hours. Places that close up with nobody present overnight generally do put physical barriers in place, lock the keys away, etc. but during business hours... recently I went to test drive a used car, called ahead, they knew when we were coming. When we got there the office was empty, key locker readily accessible hanging open on the wall. Took a couple of minutes for someone to show up at the desk. My wife went inside 10 minutes later and experienced the exact same thing - almost as if they wanted you to steal the cars...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @05:36PM (2 children)
It's not theft if you already paid. In fact Hertz should be charged with theft if they don't supply the car. When the system fails, we must take control ourselves.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday November 19, @08:38AM (1 child)
It could be theft if you don't have permission, didn't take the car allocated to you, didn't notify them of which car you took, etc.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 19, @02:38PM
The payment is ipso fatso permission. Think of it as a shrink wrap contract.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday November 18, @06:16PM (1 child)
If you have already rented a car, is it even theft if you take the car and properly return it when you're done? It may not be totally kosher, but I would say it falls short of theft.
(Score: 4, Informative) by number11 on Monday November 18, @08:21PM
Hertz is a company known for filing "stolen car" charges, even though the car in question was returned on time.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Monday November 18, @05:05PM
Oh, and I suppose you're also telling me you wouldn't fill up an empty shopping cart, then run out the entrance without paying? That's just ridiculous.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by sjames on Monday November 18, @06:14PM (1 child)
At least some of the people had a rental agreement in hand that they had made before they flew. It's just that there was nobody there to hand them the keys to the car that they had already rented. One more in a long line of Hertz colossal screw-ups of late.
Watch Lehto's Law on Youtube and you'll never rent from Hertz again.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Tuesday November 19, @02:45AM
And here ya go:
Steve Lehto: New Move by Hertz: Abandoning Their Jobs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3tfGCA8xPw [youtube.com]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Barenflimski on Monday November 18, @01:59AM (1 child)
I've showed up at many Hertz counters and found no one. Usually you pick up a phone and call someone and eventually they get off the couch, put on clothes and come help you. Not sure why this is news now.
Taking the keys to any car available though? Hah. That's some fun for sure, but I've never been in such a rush to go to these lengths.
I'm trying to imagine an environment where I felt compelled to take any random keys to a car and drive it off.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday November 18, @03:35PM
I mean, typically, auto theft is one of those "you just don't do it" kinds of things. The only ones that "can get away with it" with a "slap on the wrist" tend to be teenage joyriders. You're essentially automatically committing a felony, because of how much a car costs. So, just randomly taking off with a car has never been a thing I thought "would be cool". Maybe kids these days have played one too many hours of "Grand Theft Auto"?
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @02:11AM (40 children)
I wouldn't want to be Hertz in a courtroom.
"Did he reserve a car?"
"No one was there. Are you aware that you had a contract with that customer to provide a car?"
"Did he return the car?".
"Did he pay as per the agreement?"
"Could you explain to the court why you are here?"
"I award the defendant $5000 for the loss of time and resources to be brought here today over such a matter."
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @02:20AM (39 children)
A reservation is just that. A reservation is *not* a contract.
There is no contract until the renter signs a, you know, "rental contract." Did you ever wonder why they call them that?
So if I take your car, but return it three days later, it's not car theft?
As per what agreement? No rental contract (there's that pesky word again) was entered into by Hertz or the car thief.
To testify against these car thieves.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @02:42AM (33 children)
Hertz corporate has a lot of experience and expertise in legally protecting their business, especially including when their (typical) employees do outrageously unprofessional things.
Self satisfied Gen whatever "my word is your bond" nitwits apparently need some schooling in basic contract reading. As in: if you haven't signed it yet, it doesn't mean anything. And: that reservation you have on your phone is absolutely worthless until you actually have a signed contract.
I am getting very annoyed with the rental companies that take their stuff back and tell you "you are good to go" without closing out the contract. Of course their corporate lawyers have written enough weasel wording into the "agreement" they make you sign that even if you do get a nitwit employee to sign off that you returned your rental in good condition, they still might find all sorts of hidden damage after you leave.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Monday November 18, @04:05AM (7 children)
Or a key in hand. Those keys shouldn't have been accessible to the would-be customers. That neuters the "They should have signed something first."
If I were in charge on the Hertz side, those rides would be on Hertz with an apology and some sort of voucher to anyone who had a reservation over that span. Then investigate why it happened in order to keep it from happening again. Maybe someone needs to be fired. Maybe it's something unfortunate that doesn't have an obvious blame target (like the sole employee on duty collapsing and being whisked off to the ER). Even in the latter case, there's something probably being done wrong, but which can be fixed.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @11:57AM (4 children)
>That neuters the "They should have signed something first."
How protected do the keys need to be? In a locked cabinet? Behind a counter? If I am paying a cashier and pay a $100 bill on the counter, does that make it fair game for you to snatch it and run? If the car door is unlocked and keys behind the visor, does that make it not theft to get in and drive?
>If I were in charge on the Hertz side, those rides would be on Hertz with an apology and some sort of voucher to anyone who had a reservation over that span.
I agree, that is good business. It has nothing to do with the law.
The main thing that is being done wrong by the business is understaffing, and under incentivization of the staff they have.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Monday November 18, @02:04PM
Yes.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by number11 on Monday November 18, @08:28PM (2 children)
They may well be understaffing, but the acts of the staff they have are the actions of the company.
A rental reservation doesn't have signatures, but neither does an oral contract (and the rental reservation is a lot easier to prove). Hertz has represented that they will provide you with a car at a specific time, and you have committed money to guarantee your performance.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @09:50PM (1 child)
>A rental reservation doesn't have signatures, but neither does an oral contract
I'd like to extend this way of thinking to interpret modern law as: where an oral contract is more noticeable to a party to the contract than more obscure representations, the orally contracted point shall take precidence over any conflict with more obscurely represented aspects of the contract.
In other words: if the contract obscurely tells you a higher price, but the highly visible aspect of the contracting party is an oral representation of a lower price, then the more prominently represented price shall be available to the other party?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 19, @04:53AM
> ...then the more prominently represented price shall be available to the other party?
Assuming you are joking, but if not I've got an Aerosmith song for you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU44W5W9lqg [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @07:49PM (1 child)
> That neuters the "They should have signed something first
No it doesn't.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday November 18, @09:57PM
(Score: 5, Interesting) by ledow on Monday November 18, @10:18AM (15 children)
"As in: if you haven't signed it yet, it doesn't mean anything"
That's simply not true, especially if you pre-booked and agreed to all the terms and conditions on the website when you did so.
A contract consists merely of offer and acceptance. By offering a car rental for $X to a customer, then accepting and then paying for that, a contract has formed. Hertz have failed in their fulfillment of that contract, paperwork or not. Hertz cannot claim not to have offered that contract, nor that the customer didn't accept it. They'd have a hard time in court.
Same in a shop. If they AGREE to charge you $X for something, and you agree and pay that amount, that's a contract.
It may not be as rigorous as one signed on the dotted line with lots of T&Cs but how enforceable it is is for the court to determine, not you or them.
Now, it doesn't *necessarily* give you the legal right to just take a car at random, but it is most definitely a contract, hence a breach of contract not to fulfill it. And it would cost more to argue than just apologising, getting the car returned and charging the customer what you would have charged them anyway.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @12:05PM (5 children)
There are verbal contracts too, they are just unenforceable.
Long before click-thru TOS BS, there was and still is "the fine print" that actual written enforceable agreement that the business acts like they would never enforce, but actually when it comes down to it, they can, and your verbal understanding of the relationship doesn't supercede the written terms of
accepting and then paying for that, a contract has formed
Ever notice how actual payment in full isn't made until after the rental is returned?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Informative) by shrewdsheep on Monday November 18, @12:58PM (3 children)
Maybe this varies per jurisdiction. In Europe at least, verbal contracts are absolutely enforceable. Burden of proof is harder to fulfill certainly, nonetheless they enforceable. If there are witnesses or actions of the parties imply the contract (such as handing over a check) or other indirect evidence, a verbal contract can be enforced in court.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @02:29PM (2 children)
Unenforceable is, of course, an overstatement.
If both parties agree, in court, about the content of the verbal agreement, then... they wouldn't likely be in court, would they?
Witnesses: always fun.
Then in states like Florida where recordings require two party consent, having an audio or video recording of the verbal agreement isn't admissible in court - because it is illegal without the consent of both parties - convenient, right? For the lawyers at least.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Fnord666 on Tuesday November 19, @10:19PM (1 child)
The nice thing about most company help lines is that they start off by saying that the call will be recorded (for training purposes, wink wink). That implies their consent so I have no issue recording the call as well. If they don't say that, I start the call by saying the same thing.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 19, @11:32PM
That implied consent is not a guarantee..
If you end up in court it is their lawyers' duty to have your evidence thrown out any way they can if there is any chance it might harm their clients' case.
It's not called a mutual seeking of justice process, it's called an adversarial process for many reasons.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday November 18, @02:05PM
Not when you just drove the car off the lot.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @12:25PM (8 children)
>They'd have a hard time in court.
Reread the fine print. I suspect they have chosen the venue, possibly even had you agree to arbitration in those states where they can. They have corporate lawyers who do this all the time, do you?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday November 18, @02:11PM (1 child)
That's fine if they want to say you breached contract and are on the hook for some extra service fee or compensatory damages for misrepresentation or the like. But if their allegation is that you stole the car, there's no legal manipulation they could possibly present that would deny you your right to a fair, speedy, and public trial for a criminal charge.
...Yet. We'll see how the next decade shakes out for that.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @04:49PM
I just wonder if these are actual foreign agents, or just domestic nitwits:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-than-democrat-shirts/ [snopes.com]
This is not the future I want for my children:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/vladimir-shklyarov-death-st-petersburg-ballet-star-fall/ [lbc.co.uk]
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday November 18, @06:31PM (1 child)
If I'm bound by the fine print on the rental agreement, then I guess they agree they did in fact enter into a rental agreement with me to rent a car.
A judge is unlikely to allow them to argue that I would be bound to the fine print in a contract that they are arguing doesn't exist.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @07:21PM
Well, hold on a minute...
You're bound by the fine print on the agreement after you sign the agreement (and initial it 12 times, at least in the US.)
They are specifically unbound by the fine print on the RESERVATION when you click through to "agree to terms and conditions" - you know: that 50 page document that if you don't click "agree" you don't get a reservation? Yeah, that fine print.
>A judge is unlikely
to stay awake all the way through opening arguments, in my experience. Also bear in mind, unless you've retained a lawyer who is going to cost far more than ten typical car rentals, the rental company's lawyers are going to be the ones who are effectively choosing your venue, right down to the judge in the case. Yeah, yeah, lawyers will tell you that "venue shopping isn't something we do" - but you bet your ass: when it's something precedent setting for a megacorp, they pull out all the stops.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Monday November 18, @10:43PM (1 child)
I live in a country where such forced arbitration isn't legal, because it's an absolute nonsense, even if they state it in the contract (very little in a contract is actually overruling your statutory rights to such things anyway).
For reference, I have taken on several very large companies (much larger than Hertz) in my time, on my own and without legal experience, been threatened with lawsuits by time (strangely, never actually stepped foot in a court!), and never needed lawyers to even begin to make my case (because in civilised countries, much of this stuff would fall at any attempt by Hertz to play games when it was their mistake and they breached the contract first). I "won" every time (by getting at least what I asked for originally and getting them to admit their fault).
Corporate lawyers outside the US are absolutely neutered by basic consumer law, for instance.
Also, I married a woman who - when working as a part-time book store manager for a major chain bookstore - was falsely accused of fiddling the petty cash. She took on the entire company's lawyers single-handed, took it to court, won against unfair dismissal allegation, received damages and compensation, and enjoyed it so much she LATER trained to become a barrister. Turned out, they had literally zero evidence whatsoever and their lawyer was laughed out of court for letting it get that far - and she was able to prove things that they hadn't even looked into to show her innocence.
Generally, companies don't operate on the basis of "we'll do what we can at any cost to sink this guy in court" more than "it'll cost us X to settle this without admission of fault but Y to even hire a lawyer to answer this letter" and just giving up.
"They have corporate lawyers who do this all the time, do you?"
I don't do it all the time. But if you piss me off I will dedicate more time to it than a company can generally afford to pay a lawyer to do. Have you seen the hour rates of corporate lawyers? And I won't let it drop. Ever. I have spent many a weekend writing letters (with an increasing bill on the bottom tallying the hours and cost of my proposed compensation if they were to just settle the whole affair now) and offering to take them up on their offers of court action. Surprisingly to date, not one has ever accepted my proposal to stand in front of a court at great expense and explain their (without exception horrendous, untrue and poorly rationalised) case.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 19, @02:08PM
>very little in a contract is actually overruling your statutory rights to such things anyway
The interesting thing in my experience is that these contractual nonsensical clauses (at odds with statutory rights) are in effect raising the cost of enjoyment of those statutory rights: first you have to hire the lawyer to effectively dismiss the nonsense in the contract, then you have to continue to fight the other side to obtain enjoyment of your statutory rights, and all these things take time - even when you have all the money in the world to pay the lawyers...
>because in civilised countries, much of this stuff would fall at any attempt
I would agree. In U.S. courts, the minimal price of entry seems to be around $3000 for "little stuff" that goes beyond cookie cutter everyday actions, and quickly rises to a level of: if you don't have at least $50K to gain, it's not worth your time and effort to pursue. Then there's always the risk of failure, and many specific areas of US law have been "booby trapped" with low thresholds for treble damages, paying the prevailiing party's legal costs, etc. which can quickly run into several hundreds of thousands of dollars of risk for anyone attempting to seek justice under the law who might possibly fail in court.
https://fernandinaobserver.com/stories/ryam-legal-threats-result-in-no-ethanol-fernandina-dropping-challenge-of-bioethanol-air-permit,36849 [fernandinaobserver.com]
>Corporate lawyers outside the US are absolutely neutered by basic consumer law, for instance.
Wouldn't it be nice? And we're poised to become even "greater" through regression of such progress as we have made in recent decades...
>Turned out, they had literally zero evidence whatsoever and their lawyer was laughed out of court for letting it get that far
Much legal negotiation consists of bluffing...
>it'll cost us X to settle this without admission of fault
That is the commonly taken route.
>But if you piss me off I will dedicate more time to it than a company can generally afford to pay a lawyer to do.
You've got more time for / enjoyment of the process than I do... I view the legal system like I view the US healthcare system: best avoided until absolutely necessary.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Tuesday November 19, @10:20PM (1 child)
The fine print on what? The contract? So they would be admitting that there was a contract.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 19, @11:34PM
The contract, the reservation, the website... Legalese lurks behind every possible representation by the company.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by gznork26 on Monday November 18, @01:34PM (3 children)
Speaking of incurring charges after you have returned the car, this was a recurring problem at a rental agency I did some work for in Seattle. People would drive to Canada, and travel past automatic tolls on roads and bridges before returning the car. Those tolls are charged against the owner of the car, the agency, but are not reported immediately. So there would be toll charges against cars that had now been rented out to another person when the charge was received. Software then had to match the timestamp on the toll to the correct rental, and the agency had two choices: eat the toll, or go after the renter who has already completed their contract. Collections had a serious mess to deal with.
Khipu were Turing complete.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @02:32PM (2 children)
>Collections had a serious mess to deal with.
Yeah, that one is messy... the whole concept of "drive right through, we'll bill you" is pretty messed up IMO.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @07:21PM (1 child)
> the whole concept of "drive right through, we'll bill you" is pretty messed up IMO.
NY State switched to this a few years back. If you have an EZPass with transponder, then the toll is automatically deducted from your account (which you have to top-up to maintain a positive balance).
If you don't have an EZPass (that's me), they do license plate recognition and I get a bill in the mail after I use a toll road (very infrequently). It seems like it takes a couple of months before they send out the bill.
A possible easy solution for car rental companies--have the EZPass transponder in all their cars and work a quantity-purchase deal with NY State. They might arrange for all their transponders to connect to one large account.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @10:04PM
They've had those EZpass transponders in rental cars atleast since 2008, when i first visited NY state. But a colleague had a bad experience and got a ticket, because it didn't read the transponder, and so we never used them and paid with cash.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday November 19, @02:49AM (4 children)
If they've already taken your money, they have, to my understanding, confirmed that you have a contract.
But as you say, it's still a good way to fall afoul of someone with much bigger lawyers.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 19, @02:11PM
Not just bigger lawyers, but more experienced. They know with a high degree of certainty how certain cases will play out, having done similar if not identical things many times before, quite possibly in the exact same venue you and your naive attorneys will be venturing into. That calculus of certainty factors into their settlement table negotiations, strongly in their favor.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Tuesday November 19, @10:22PM (2 children)
But they haven't "taken your money". They've just put a temporary hold on the funds via a pre-authorization. They don't settle the transaction until you return the car and they determine the final billing amount.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday November 19, @10:37PM (1 child)
Is that how they do it? is that different legally?
[I don't know, I never rent cars.]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 20, @12:41AM
Yes, "They've just put a temporary hold on the funds via a pre-authorization." is common for car rentals and also motel reservations.
It's one way for the company to make sure you aren't exceeding the credit limit on your card.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @03:00AM (1 child)
Is that reservation subject to a cancellation fee if you don't turn up? If so, it is a contract.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @03:17AM
IME unless you *prepay*, "cancellations" and/or no shows don't cost you anything.
If you "prepay" then you actually do have a contract, as money has changed hands and presumably an electronic version of the contract was "signed" and/or otherwise agreed to.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ChrisMaple on Monday November 18, @03:46AM (1 child)
My understanding is that an oral agreement is an enforceable contract if at least one party relies on it. However, another requirement of a contract is that each party receives something of value.
(Score: 1, Troll) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @12:28PM
In Florida real estate there is the statute of frauds which does state that oral agreements are enforceable contracts. However, in practice they are nearly unenforceable and always inferior to a written agreement.
That part about receiving "something of value" is also true but very slippery. Good will has value...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by OrugTor on Monday November 18, @04:03PM
I've been dicked around so much by car rental companies I have nothing but sympathy for the car "thieves". In my book what they did was ethical; the process that would have a produced a contract was voided by Hertz, not the customer. The customer simply substituted another process that worked a lot better.
If the company says "I can't be bothered to provide service, you're on your own" they can expect creative responses.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @04:35AM
That a company which reports their validly rented cars stolen and has their customers arrested and sometimes imprisoned [npr.org] would be so poorly run as to let something like this happen.
(Score: 4, Touché) by EJ on Monday November 18, @05:15AM (2 children)
I wouldn't even look over at the Hertz rental counter, because I would never rent from them in the first place.
They appear to be actively trying to run off prospective customers these days.
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday November 18, @05:23AM
The rash of incorrectly reporting cars as stolen is quite disconcerting.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by pTamok on Monday November 18, @08:46AM
I used to do a reasonable amount of car rental for leisure purposes, and have not for a while now.
I actually read the contracts, and looked at the corporate behaviour of handling me, an ordinary, customer looking for cheap, effective deals.
As a result of the unreasonable contracts and unreasonable behaviour (I'm not going to go into detail) of all the other rental companies at the airports I used, I ended up using Hertz, who cost me a little more, but gave me a far better level of service.
I'm sorry to hear that they have deteriorated. Perhaps it is because other people took advantage of any leeway they offered, so it has become a race to the bottom to protect themselves against the (truly astonishingly) bad behaviour of the general public.
I'm not looking forward to my next trip.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by ElizabethGreene on Monday November 18, @05:22AM (3 children)
I'm a Hertz gold member. I don't go to the counter, usually. I walk to the lot, get in a car with keys, and drive to the exit gate. At the gate they take my id, print a contract, and then I drive out. There is, in every airport I can recall, a physical barrier preventing exiting until the exit attendant pushes to green button. There is also a severe tire damage one-way gate preventing going out the return.
It sounds like both the counter crew and the exit crew bailed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 18, @12:26PM (1 child)
Some of the lesser known vendors don't have physical barriers. When the airport has one of those rental car centers, they can easily put the smaller vendors behind those barriers, but where they are still outside, you can drive right out. That was the case at least where I had a rental from ACE at ABQ.
And let's talk about those barriers in the rental car centers! They are ridiculously over spec'ed in that they look comparable to ones you'd see at military installations or other high value locations where they'd probably stop a small tank.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday November 18, @04:06PM
It's probably cheaper to have those, than to build walls. Typically they have quite a few cars in the lot as well, maybe over 100 cars. Which is quite a lot of money just sitting there.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by chewbacon on Tuesday November 19, @08:01PM
I’m a Hertz member as well. Generally, airports with the keys behind the counter don’t have these barricades/tire slashers. They hand you the keys and you just go.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday November 18, @03:39PM
I find it interesting the comments all seem to assume a private citizen rental whereas all my experience with Hertz is with corporate booking. I'm sure a contract between Hertz and some private individual has an unfair balance of power; however; I imagine a contract between Hertz and one of the megacorporations I used to work for is also a very unfair balance of power in the opposite direction. I have done rental with Enterprise rent a car as a private citizen and it was not noteworthy.
Yeah well others certainly are. Sure, "mobile is dead" in 2024, but there is a "Hertz 24/7 mobility" android app you can download right now where you can walk up to, book, and remotely unlock a car assuming you have logged into an account at Hertz. I'm very unclear if these people did that or if two or three people in a row did the mobility app and then everyone else copied them not entirely understanding you have to book thru the app you can't just drive off if you booked using the old paper process. AFAIK you can use the mobility app anywhere although I'm not an expert on internal Hertz operations and neither are the customers in the story, I guess.
A few times I've rented while already at a hotel location and the rental company just leaves the keys with the hotel concierge so simply grab and walk out even with a fully old fashioned paper process is not unheard of. IIRC when I checked in I told them I'd need a car in three days and I filled out the paperwork and a set of car keys magically appeared at the front desk in three days, very convenient for a day trip while on vacation at a resort.
It is true that a company where operations has collapsed to this level of confusion is probably not long for this world. They could try paying more to get more and better employees but they will not.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Frosty Piss on Monday November 18, @03:52PM (2 children)
All these people saying they'd just jump in and take the car because you know "contract" (ever actually read one of those things?)... Yeah sure see how that explaination goes at the felony stop when the cops are pointing guns at you... I'm not a lawyer, an neither are any of these car theives, but contract or not, driving off in the car like this isn't going to fly, welcom to the *real* world.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 18, @04:54PM
Maybe it's different when the car has been stolen from a mega-corporation. When you report your own car stolen, police won't be doing much of anything to stop it if they see it on the road - they might note it in a report, if they're really bored.
I literally called in two guys driving a stolen car down Biscayne Blvd one morning, they had a small child standing between them in the front seat while they wove through the 40mph traffic at 60+. These are the same two guys who I saw just before and after they hit-and-ran me two weeks earlier in another stolen car. I've got Miami Police on the cell phone with them in sight and the police tell me "we don't really bother with car thieves, the judges just kick 'em back on the street 'cause they're non-violent offenders." Yeah, non-violent offenders hit me and a city bus with a 3500lb missile and spun me through oncoming traffic - real non-violent.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Monday November 18, @10:00PM
So did any of those renters have cops pointing guns at them? Doesn't sound like that happened. In other words, it flew.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Monday November 18, @06:01PM (1 child)
One time I took a red eye flight I got through Priceline, to a job interview. Turned out I should've offered less, but not being a frequent flyer, I didn't appreciate I was very likely to be shoved onto a red eye. The trip turned complicated. Had a short layover at the airline's hub, and while there I saw and took an opportunity to switch to an earlier outgoing flight for the 2nd leg. That flight's departure was delayed by mechanical problems, and while I was sitting on the plane regretting having switched, I learned the flight for which I was originally booked had been canceled (by reason of more severe mechanical problems, IIRC), so it turned out a good thing I switched. Arrived at my destination only 90 minutes late instead of an hour early, to find the rental car I had reserved had so thoughtfully been canceled because I was over an hour late. Or so they said. They were all out of the econobox class of rentals, but I could rent a bigger vehicle for more money. I was angry, and tried to find an alternative, but all the other rental car businesses were closed for the night. And I definitely didn't want to try sacking out in the airport. Maybe get a taxi? Nope, not at that hour at a smaller airport. They had me over a barrel and knew it, the scumbags, and when I came back to their counter, they oh so regrettably had just rented the last of those midsize vehicles and now all they had left were even bigger vehicles for even more money. Sure, they could've been lying their behinds off. I think they ought to have honored the original price, and not canceled my reservation so very quickly. So much for the money I'd saved.
Didn't get the job. The winner was a person by name of "Budget Cut". No one was hired. At least they fully reimbursed me for the trip. SMH at the waste of doing all that interviewing, only to eliminate the position. If the budget was such a problem, you'd think they'd figure that out before spending money and effort doing interviews.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 19, @10:29PM
Interesting. Every time I've shown up and they didn't have the class of car I reserved, they upgraded me to whatever they did have at no extra cost. Went from a Corolla one time to a BMW I7. Of course the extra cost in gas was a different story.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 20, @10:19PM
Obligatory Seinfeld clip. [youtube.com]