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posted by
LaminatorX
on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:00PM
from the not-going-to-make-light-of-this dept.
from the not-going-to-make-light-of-this dept.
romanr writes:
"The situation in Ukraine was pretty wild yesterday. Over twenty dead protesters have been reported, and many more have been injured. One student, a supporter of peaceful demonstrations and a participant in the riots, answers questions about the current situation in Ukraine."
[ED Note: Background on the Ukraine situation from the BBC.]
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Ukrainian Riots Participant Answers Questions on Reddit
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Can anyone remember when the times were not hard, and money not scarce?
(Score: 2) by dilbert on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:07PM
Ukrainian Riots Participant Aswers Questions on Reddi
(Score: 2) by mattie_p on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:08PM
Offtopic, yet still a pertinent topic. Thanks, it is fixed now! ~mattie_p
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by song-of-the-pogo on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:11PM
This got fixed while I was looking for a good way to report a typo. I'd be happy to volunteer (please steer me to the appropriate venue) as a typo-spotter. I don't think I'm qualified to be an editor, but would like to help out in some way if you can make use of me.
"We have met the enemy and he is us."
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by dilbert on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:14PM
(Score: 1) by GungnirSniper on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:25PM
It's the little things that will bring in the usual gang of readers.
Tips for better submissions to help our site grow. [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by combatserver on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:45PM
"And so it begins..."
King Theoden
I hope I can change this later...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:49PM
Where exactly did "Over twenty dead protesters" come from? The reddit post never mentions that these were only protesters and the news sources claim 26 people dead, 10 of them police officers.
(Score: 5, Informative) by romanr on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:28AM
Here [wikipedia.org] you go.
(Score: 3, Informative) by romanr on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:35AM
Err, the summary is indeed misleading, there have been 20+ causalities among the protesters but not since yesterday but since the beginning of the protests. I'm sorry next time I'll be more careful.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:50PM
Violence solves nothing. It will just end up using more violence, eventually the Army decides who "wins" or you have civil war if they are not cohesive.
Ukraine could turn into Syria if shit hits the fan. And for what? Ridicules. Both sides equally at fault from where I'm sitting.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:21AM
The alternative is a non-violent protest which would be systemically taken apart and pacified by illegal government actions, think Occupy. Violence is the only thing that governments and those in power understand as they are inherently violent themselves. Gandhi is revered as a hero of the non-violent movement but the fact is he wouldn't of succeeded without simultaneous efforts of violent revolutionaries. The March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom was successful partly because it scared the shit out of white people knowing that it could turn into a riot. The labor movement in America was successful because bomb throwing anarchists and die hard violent revolutionary communists fought it out in the streets, not because they sat around and held hands while police beat the shit out of them.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:03AM
The alternative is a non-violent protest which would be systemically taken apart and pacified by illegal government actions, think Occupy
Yes. Non-violent protests take time and patience.
The difference with Occupy movement was that it had no purpose. You need a goal and a message and you need the movement to become political. Since Occupy movement wasn't political, they failed. Public had a positive perception of the protests, at first. But then, no message to unite behind, the public became indifferent eventually viewing them as irrelevant. And that's why they failed.
Tea Party, on the other hand, is succeeding because they have a message and are political (irrespective if I disagree with their message).
The labor movement in America was successful because bomb throwing anarchists and die hard violent revolutionary communists fought it out in the streets...
No. I do not agree with this. Public perception of fairness towards protesters is paramount. If protests turn into riots, I would not give a shit what happens to the protesters. Neither would most observers. This is one of the major reasons why protest-opponents try to spark violence - to plant hooligans into protest movements to justify violence against the protesters.
If original protesters in Syria did not arm themselves and started shooting back, Syria would not be at civil war at this moment. But they did, and now they have a bloodbath. You see, most people when told to harm others do not feel so good about it. They will eventually rebel and "do the right thing". But if you start to shoot at them, the situation changes from them questioning their actions to trying to survive. And people will do anything to survive.
The problem is people want immediate results and they act irrationally. Non-violent opposition does not cause immediate results, but it does not delay lasting results. Change happens "when people are ready", not because some groups wants them now.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @02:06AM
Change happens "when people are ready", not because some groups wants them now.
There are groups in Ukraine who want the change right now. They are using the fact that the government of Yanukovitch is corrupt, impotent, and indecisive. (Compare to Al Sisi in Egypt; there were thousands of protesters in the streets against him; he sent helicopters with machine guns and issued live ammo... and we heard crickets in the Western MSM. Protesters are no more, and Egypt is stable again. Is the price worth it?)
Just like the revolution in Russia in 1917, the current government is universally despised and weak. However the vast majority of Ukrainians do not want violence. A revolt is only going to install a new boss, who may be not any better than the old boss. Ukraine is a largely democratic country, such as that parties can propose candidates, and the voters vote for them. Ukraine could have simply elected a better President. However the protesters (and those who instigate the riots) do not want the democratic process because they'd never be elected. Some of them are following in the footsteps of Stepan Bandera, a NAZI associate of Hitler. Those guys can get power only in fire of a violent revolt, where the "election" is done by force, not by careful and free consideration of all voters. What's happening in Ukraine right now is deeply undemocratic, on par with Pinochet's takeover in Chile. Sometimes such actions are necessary... but only if the democratic process in the country is dead. Ukraine's democracy was not dead, far from it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @11:24AM
I agree. Carrots don't work without sticks. Also, Malcolm X deserves credit and so too the Black Panthers.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:28AM
Sometimes violence is the end result, not so much a means. Also, Please Hitler stop killing all those Jews and taking over Europe. Come on let's sit down and talk about your frustrations...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:16AM
How is this possibly off topic when all in the comment is a point simply disagreeing with the OP?
Mods stop being so trigger happy and read the CONTEXT.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by SpallsHurgenson on Thursday February 20 2014, @05:11AM
Not that I entirely hold to this particular thesis, but it seems an appropriate quote for the topic at hand and this particular audience:
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Daniel Dvorkin on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:18AM
From the BBC article:
Catapults certainly used to be serious weapons, and there have been few military forces in history more serious than the crusaders. I get the impression the reporter was going for "oh look, how quaint" but didn't grasp the important point that their willingness to confront a modern army with medieval weaponry is a sign of exactly how serious the protesters are.
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by kbahey on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:30AM
There was an attempt to build a trebuchet in Tahrir, during the uprising against Mubarak (Jan/Feb 2011). It did not work though.
A year and a half after the event, the Ministry of Interior (pretty much still the old regime) leaked alleged phone calls blaming this on Hamas, linking them to the Muslim Brotherhood. They could not get the lie right and called it a "slingshot".
Here is a picture [twitpic.com].
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning [2bits.com].
(Score: 1) by Daniel Dvorkin on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:27PM
"Slingshot" seems to get applied to almost any pre-gunpowder weapon designed to throw something, with the exception of hand-held bows. I've heard it applied to slings, catapults, and ballistas.
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(Score: 1) by kbahey on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:33PM
In this context, no.
Slingshot has a specific meaning in Arabic, which is the thing David used against Goliath: the piece of rope with a cradle used to hurl stones.
The State Security Police in Egypt were just trying to blame the entire 2011 uprising on the Muslim Brotherhood, by linking them to the Palestinian Intifadas, hence Hamas, ...etc. so as to discredit all participants by rewriting history.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning [2bits.com].
(Score: 1) by Daniel Dvorkin on Friday February 21 2014, @12:54AM
In English, that's a sling [wikipedia.org], not a slingshot [wikipedia.org]. Are they actually the same thing in Arabic? Anyway, my point was not to defend the incorrect use of the word to describe things that clearly aren't slingshots in any language, but to point out how common the error is.
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(Score: 1) by kbahey on Friday February 21 2014, @02:27AM
It is my mistake in translating then. I meant sling. Sorry ...
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning [2bits.com].
(Score: 1) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @04:08AM
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/02/three-ukraini an-lessons-for-the-united-states/ [legalinsurrection.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by affenkopf on Thursday February 20 2014, @08:50AM
Well informed?
"Bilingual nations are inherently unstable."
That certainly explains the daily riots in Singapore, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Canada, Botswana.....
(Score: 4, Insightful) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @09:02AM
You are not entirely correct about Canada - it does have issues with Quebec, and French separatists [wikipedia.org] are actively using the language to drive the wedge between QC and the rest of the country:
I was in Toronto at that time and watched the referendum on TV.
Bilingualism indicates that the society is not monolithic. How dangerous are the differences? In Switzerland they are not significant. In Ukraine they are. In Canada they are made to be important.