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posted by martyb on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:17PM   Printer-friendly
from the getting-closer dept.

From the latest blog post of Derek Lowe :

One of the big (and so far unanswered) questions about the coronavirus epidemic is what kind of immunity people have after becoming infected. This is important for the idea of “re-infection” (is it even possible?) and of course for vaccine development. We’re getting more and more information in this area, though, and this new paper is a good example. A team from the La Jolla Institute for Immunology, UNC, UCSD, and Mt. Sinai (NY) reports details about the T cells of people who have recovered from the virus.

[...] So overall, this paper makes the prospects for a vaccine look good: there is indeed a robust response by the adaptive immune system, to several coronavirus proteins. And vaccine developers will want to think about adding in some of the other antigens mentioned in this paper, in addition to the Spike antigens that have been the focus thus far. It seems fair to say, though, that the first wave of vaccines will likely be Spike-o-centric, and later vaccines might have these other antigens included in the mix. But it also seems that Spike-protein-targeted vaccines should be pretty effective, so that’s good. The other good news is that this team looked for the signs of an antibody-dependent-enhancement response, which would be bad news, and did not find evidence of it in the recovering patients (I didn’t go into these details, but wanted to mention that finding, which is quite reassuring). And it also looks like the prospects for (reasonably) lasting immunity after infection (or after vaccination) are good. This, from what I can see, is just the sort of response that you’d want to see for that to be the case. Clinical data will be the real decider on that, but there’s no reason so far to think that a person won’t have such immunity if they fit this profile.

Onward from here, then – there will be more studies like this coming, but this is a good, solid look into the human immunology of this outbreak. And so far, so good.

Be sure to read the article if you’ve been wondering what your thymus has done for you lately.

Journal Reference
Alba Grifoni, Daniela Weiskopf. Targets of T cell responses to SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus in humans with COVID-19 disease and unexposed individuals, Cell (DOI: 10.1016/j.cell.2020.05.015)


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  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:55PM (33 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:55PM (#995404) Journal

    Assuming this one acts like SARS, it would make sense to get a combined nCov-2019/influenza vaccine every year, IMO.

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    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
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  • (Score: 2, Disagree) by PocketSizeSUn on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:03PM (31 children)

    by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:03PM (#995406)

    Assuming this one is like SARS-v1 (yes) an effective vaccine is quite unlikely to arrive soon. The SARS-v1 vaccine was scrapped because the outcomes were worse that the disease ... and SARS-v1 was 10x more deadly that SARS-v2.

    If the current IFR rates hold steady an vaccine will be nearly as pointless as the yearly flu vaccine.

    FYI the yearly flu vaccine is only lines up with the flu 1/3 of the time? So only 1 year in 3 is the flu vaccine the one for the flu that is going around. 2 out of 3 years you get a vaccine for the wrong flu.

    Finally the flu vaccine is only confers immunity for an average of 6 months.

    So bottom line. No it doesn't make sense.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:11PM (19 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:11PM (#995410) Journal

      What do you suggest then? My main motivation for mixing the two is the flu shots are well-covered by Medicare (so the elderly and very sick get them free). If the government thinks flu is important enough to vaccinate against like that, then nCov-2019 sure as hell ought to be. More so, if anything.

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by PocketSizeSUn on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:38PM

        by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:38PM (#995413)

        You will need to get the a SARS *series* of vaccines as profitable as the flu vaccine.

              https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/12/20/784608400/do-you-really-need-a-flu-shot-heres-how-to-decide [npr.org]

              https://www.wired.com/story/flu-vaccine-big-pharma/ [wired.com]

              https://www.drugwatch.com/news/2018/02/19/us-flu-season-reaches-peak-vaccine-profits-climb/ [drugwatch.com]

        Since China is doing the vaccine and GoF research ... we could just wait for a Made-in-China solution to a Made-in-China problem?
        Or maybe a little oversight on China's rapid increase in GoF and vaccine research? China is now building out BSL4 labs as fast as they built a containment hospital in Wuhan.

        It is also worth noting that China has been doing GoF + SARS development in lower classifcation labs as well as in WIV BSL4 lab. They plan to build 5 to 7 labs

        https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-to-permit-lab-poised-to-study-worlds-most-dangerous-pathogens/ [scientificamerican.com]

        The move is part of a plan to build between five and seven biosafety level-4 (BSL-4) labs across the Chinese mainland by 2025

        governments will assume that such excess capacity is for the potential development of bioweapons

        “These facilities are inherently dual use,”

        So ask yourself this. Did China react the way they did in Wuhan because they thought the had a SARS outbreak ... or because they thought they had a containment problem of something much worse leak out of WIV?

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:11PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:11PM (#995435)

        the flu shots are well-covered by Medicare (so the elderly and very sick get them free). If the government thinks flu is important enough

        Ever the optimist, assuming that the government's primary motivation is protecting the well being of their most costly citizens.

        --
        My karma ran over your dogma.
      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Monday May 18 2020, @01:17AM (1 child)

        by Bot (3902) on Monday May 18 2020, @01:17AM (#995556) Journal

        Are you aware plasma from survivors does cure the covid? even the evil gates is eyeing that therapy. Using plasma is a delicate matter, sure, but given the way vaccines are manufactured and prescribed, getting plasma should not scare you much.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday May 18 2020, @01:34PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday May 18 2020, @01:34PM (#995748) Journal

          Yes, I am. At some point, I plan to get tested, and if it's positive (I've had no symptoms at all, so am either uninfected or asymptomatic and recovered) I plan to donate plasma when possible.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday May 18 2020, @04:48AM (14 children)

        by Reziac (2489) on Monday May 18 2020, @04:48AM (#995613) Homepage

        I agree, and take it a step further -- do like was common in the 1980s, and in some places even today -- vaccine is cheap or even free to everyone. Tho it might not be a good idea to combine CV and influenza vaccines; a few weeks apart would be better for maximum immunity and fewest fails/bad reactions. At least until we determine if there's any interaction. (Sometimes one vaccine can interfere with another.)

        Up here in Redneck Land, some counties have an RV that tours every wide spot in the road giving out vaccine for every disease known to man... having found that free vaccine is a lot cheaper than treating the illness. Last time I encountered the vaccine tourbus, I went home immune to everything but death and looking like a pincushion. :D

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday May 18 2020, @01:35PM (13 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday May 18 2020, @01:35PM (#995749) Journal

          Sounds like *socialism* ta me, boy..whah duh yew hayt uh-merrika?

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 2, Disagree) by Reziac on Monday May 18 2020, @02:03PM (12 children)

            by Reziac (2489) on Monday May 18 2020, @02:03PM (#995766) Homepage

            Socialism is when you don't have a choice, you participate or else. Socialism only 'works' when there's a man with a gun to enforce participation.

            No one forced us to line up for flu vaccine; we merely observed that flu was worse than an hour in line on a subzero night. No one forced county health to juggle numbers and decide vaccine was cheaper than disease. In both cases it was purely enlightened self-interest, for which we were willing to spend a tiny bit of those tax dollars we'd already paid.

            • (Score: 2, Disagree) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:49AM (11 children)

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @12:49AM (#996105) Journal

              "Or else" what, pray tell? Because in a crony-capitalist milieu like the modern US, the "or else" is equally dire.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:05AM (10 children)

                by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:05AM (#996111) Homepage

                Or else what? The best answer came from Lenin or Stalin or Mao, tho there have been plenty of also-rans (eg. Castro and Chavez).

                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:14AM (9 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:14AM (#996115) Journal

                  Same shit happens here in the US, just slower: you die. I think I'd rather be shot than starve. You're dishonest as Hell, you know that?

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:49AM (8 children)

                    by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:49AM (#996144) Homepage

                    And you're pleasant company, as always.

                    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:26PM (7 children)

                      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @01:26PM (#996325) Journal

                      Cry harder. I may be unpleasant to the deserving, but I'm also correct. If you don't like getting snarked at, don't say stupid shit.

                      --
                      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Reziac on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:50PM (6 children)

                        by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:50PM (#996362) Homepage

                        No, you're unpleasant because you're wrong and you don't have a good argument, but you do have a fine stable of insults. We all use the skills we're able...

                        ;)

                        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:24AM (5 children)

                          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:24AM (#996631) Journal

                          So this is what you descend to? No, I'm correct, and if I weren't you wouldn't be getting so upset about it. The nastiness is just the well-deserved icing on the cake. Fuck off, keep fucking off until you've circumnavigated the globe and fucked off right back to where you started, then fuck off one more time.

                          --
                          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                          • (Score: 2, Funny) by Reziac on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:39AM (4 children)

                            by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @12:39AM (#996636) Homepage

                            I'm not upset. I love you too. :D

                            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday May 20 2020, @05:20AM (3 children)

                              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @05:20AM (#996757) Journal

                              Denial. Ain't just a big wet in Egypt.

                              --
                              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                              • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday May 20 2020, @06:38AM (2 children)

                                by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @06:38AM (#996772) Homepage

                                You can get Depends for that...

                                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday May 20 2020, @01:10PM (1 child)

                                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @01:10PM (#996861) Journal

                                  If it weren't bothering you, *you wouldn't keep replying.* You fat middle-aged manchildren are all so goddamn *predictable.*

                                  --
                                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                                  • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday May 20 2020, @02:45PM

                                    by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @02:45PM (#996905) Homepage

                                    No, I do it to keep YOU replying. Because you're so predictable. :D

    • (Score: 2) by NickM on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:13PM (9 children)

      by NickM (2867) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:13PM (#995463) Journal

      The other good news is that this team looked for the signs of an antibody-dependent-enhancement response, which would be bad news, and did not find evidence of it in the recovering patients (I didn’t go into these details, but wanted to mention that finding, which is quite reassuring).

      As far as I know it was scrapped because the disease died out. According to https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00533741 [clinicaltrials.gov] 0 person were enrolled into it's trial. How can you claim that the vaccine outcome was worse than the disease when it was not even tested ? If you have some credible references contradicting what I have posted, please share them. If you don't, please refrain from spreading unsubstantiated disinformation.

       

      --
      I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by PocketSizeSUn on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:35PM (8 children)

        by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:35PM (#995506)

        https://theconversation.com/the-mysterious-disappearance-of-the-first-sars-virus-and-why-we-need-a-vaccine-for-the-current-one-but-didnt-for-the-other-137583 [theconversation.com]

        What about a SARS vaccine? Vaccine studies for SARS-CoV-1 were started and tested in animal models. An inactivated whole virus was used in ferrets, nonhuman primates and mice. All of the vaccines resulted in protective immunity, but there were complications; the vaccines resulted in an immune disease in animals.

        Hence clincial study withdrawn.

        As to the obvious follow-on question of why did research in to SARS-CoV-1 vaccines stop ... it didn't. That's why there a hundreds of samples of bat virii and GoF testing being done.

        • (Score: 2) by NickM on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:41PM

          by NickM (2867) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:41PM (#995507) Journal
          Thank you for the link.
          --
          I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
        • (Score: 2) by NickM on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:46PM (1 child)

          by NickM (2867) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:46PM (#995511) Journal
          But why did you excluded the following paragraph from your quote ?

          No human studies were done, nor were the vaccine studies taken further because the virus disappeared. Many factors were involved in the end of SARS-CoV-1, perhaps including summer weather, and certainly strict quarantine of all those who had contact with infected individuals, but we don’t really know why the epidemic ended. Viruses are like that, unpredictable!

          --
          I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by PocketSizeSUn on Monday May 18 2020, @12:05AM

            by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Monday May 18 2020, @12:05AM (#995521)

            Because the author's assertion is mostly inaccurate.

            There were human trials with other attempts at SARS vaccines. The SARS family virii continue to be studied and attempts at vaccines continue to be developed.

            The *pace* of development may have changed but is rather typical in these cases ..

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by PocketSizeSUn on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:52PM (4 children)

          by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:52PM (#995514)

          And one with human subjects in China:
          https://www.intmedpress.com/serveFile.cfm?sUID=bba35bb3-9126-4c66-ae0f-4e96b8291dea [intmedpress.com]

          This one protected 83.33% of the study subjects for > 210 days. It used two vaccinations and ~8 weeks to achieve seropositive, had complications (not immediately life threatening) however some test subjects ended up with impaired liver functions.

          More research on the influences of SARS-CoV on liver functions in animal experiments are need to address the potential liver damage of SARS virus vaccine candidates.

          It did not progress to a clinical trial.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:58PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:58PM (#995516)
            Did you read the abstract of your link ?

            Conclusion: The inactivated vaccine was safe and well tolerated and can elicit SARS-CoV-specific neutralizing antibodies.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by PocketSizeSUn on Monday May 18 2020, @12:28AM (1 child)

              by PocketSizeSUn (5340) on Monday May 18 2020, @12:28AM (#995533)

              Yes .. I actually read the whole study which you obviously did not.

              The vaccine achieved seropositive results (that's good) but also cause liver disease (that's bad).
              The level of seropositive achieved is believed to be 'enough' but was below the level of seropositive of people who had SARS and survived (this is not atypical of a vaccine).
              So this vaccine may work but you have to get it in stages to get enough immunity to maintain any realistic possibility of protection from SARS.

              Also the trial size 36 healthy adults. That means that even 1 case of liver disease => 3% chance, 2 => 6% chance.
              Any sane person would RTFA (run-the-*-away) from this one.

              • (Score: 2) by NickM on Monday May 18 2020, @01:00AM

                by NickM (2867) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 18 2020, @01:00AM (#995548) Journal
                A transient increase in serum ALT is not that relevant in this study, again you selectivly choose not to state that it also occured in the placebo control group (1/12)...
                --
                I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
          • (Score: 2) by NickM on Monday May 18 2020, @12:06AM

            by NickM (2867) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 18 2020, @12:06AM (#995522) Journal

            Although a group has reported that they observed severe liver inflammation when a recom- binant vaccine, created by genetically modifying a pox virus to produce SARS-CoV spike (S) protein, was tested in ferrets [14], our previously performed pathological study on monkeys [15] and another study [16] did not find any evidence of liver damage. More research on the influences of SARS-CoV on liver functions in animal experiments are needed to address the potential liver damage of SARS virus vaccine candidates.

            --
            I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday May 18 2020, @05:01AM

      by Reziac (2489) on Monday May 18 2020, @05:01AM (#995616) Homepage

      Back when flu vaccine was the new kid on the block, after I'd had 3 or 4 different vaccines, I noticed that I didn't get the flu anymore, not even if this year's vaccine proved to be the wrong one. So appears there's some cross-coverage, and enough immune memory to be useful even if the current vaccine is a near-miss. And if there's only strong immunity long enough to cover flu season -- well, the rest of the year you don't need it anyway. Regardless, I find it prudent, especially as an old fart, to get the shot every year. If CV19 vaccine becomes part of the annual pincushioning, well, it's better than being sick, especially as one approaches the high-fatality age bracket.

      And when/if a vaccine is developed... well, it's better to not load up the healthcare system with preventable disease, even if the vaccine coverage is a bit iffy.

  • (Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @01:05AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @01:05AM (#995551)

    Read up on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement [wikipedia.org]
    And specifically this part: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement#In_coronavirus_infection [wikipedia.org]

    Biology is NOT a school testsheet where you check the right boxes and receive an A. Here in the real world, an overachiever can get a nice grave for their effort. Like they say, "if you drive like hell, you're bound to get there".