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posted by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:43AM   Printer-friendly
from the just-the-tip dept.

Bluestone, which now has 20 stores in the U.S., went cashless last October.

A big reason: Nearly 90 percent of customers [...] never paid in cash.

Another reason: The lines move faster when employees don't have to make change.

"We see a lot of guests that pay for a meal with a credit card, but will always leave a cash tip. And I think people like doing that. People like palming a bartender a $20 or palming their server a $10. Palming the bus boy a couple bucks," said Fileccia.

There are also people, he said, who want to keep their meal off the books — if they're having an affair, for example.

No, businesses are not required to accept cash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender


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  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:23AM (24 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:23AM (#619882)

    See subject. It's a nasty, ugly custom, sorta thing that leads to "give her a 20 and slap her bottom" sorta shit.

    • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:34AM (17 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:34AM (#619888)

      I mostly don't patronize the sorts of places where I might be expected to tip.

      When I do, I still don't tip.

      The corrupt nonsense won't end until... we just end it. Stop tipping. Just don't do it.

      • (Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:20AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:20AM (#619917)

        Federal minimum wage is NOT $7.25. It's actually $2.13. [google.com]
        If you are at one of the chain restaurants and you don't leave a tip, it's likely that that is what your server is getting for the hour after working for you.

        I mostly don't patronize the sorts of places where I might be expected to tip

        Do what it takes to remove the "mostly" from your statement, slimeball.
        ...or take lessons in what it requires to be a proper human being.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:35AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:35AM (#619922)

          "...or take lessons in what it requires to be a proper human being."

          When business owners take those lessons first and actually pay a proper salary, I'll feel guilted into doing so. Remember tipping started because business owners deliberately started paying their staff too little, expecting the customer to actually pay the rest of it on top of what they're actually buying.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Joe Desertrat on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:02AM

          by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:02AM (#619925)

          If you are at one of the chain restaurants and you don't leave a tip, it's likely that that is what your server is getting for the hour after working for you.

          Not to mention they are getting taxed as if they were tipped 8%...

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:03AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:03AM (#619926)

          The ideal minimum wage is negative infinity. Some people are worth less than zero because they harm the business, but maybe they need the learning experience or just need to have an activity to keep them busy.

          The de facto minimum wage may well be negative, particularly with illegal aliens and other wanted criminals getting paid under the table. For example, pay $1.00/hour for the right to be a waitress and get tips that won't be properly reported to the IRS.

          Removing the "mostly" would mean I can't travel. I certainly don't patronize those places in my hometown. In any case though, a proper human being doesn't encourage corruption. Tipping is the payment of a bribe. Don't do it.

        • (Score: 2) by chromas on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:16AM

          by chromas (34) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:16AM (#619942) Journal

          Maybe he's black. Don't be racis, y'all!

          Many states have their own minimum wage, which is usually higher. Washington and some other states [dol.gov] also don't allow employers to count tips to be toward wage.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM (11 children)

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM (#619972) Homepage Journal

        There's nothing corrupt about tipping, you're just an idiot and a douchebag. Wait staff who are good at their jobs make more than those who are not, so there's your idiocy for opposing meritocracy. Wait staff who are good at their job also make a damn sight more than the management would be willing to pay them, so you're a douchebag for wanting to cut their pay.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:48PM (10 children)

          by TheRaven (270) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:48PM (#619990) Journal

          My enjoyment in a restaurant is far more likely to be improved by the attention to detail of the kitchen staff than the front of house staff. In some places in the USA (New York, for example), it is illegal for front-of-house and kitchen staff to pool tips. In other places, it may be legal but it isn't always done. The US is currently suffering a skills shortage in kitchen staff because you need to spend money on a qualification and then earn less than someone with no qualification working front of house. Scheduling waiters is also difficult, because the total tip revenue is related to how busy the restaurant is, so people get paid a lot more if they work Friday or Saturday than if they work Wednesday or Thursday, so people are far more likely to call in sick on the worse-paying days and finding cover is harder.

          Meanwhile, in a civilised country, when I go out for a meal the company that I am buying it from quotes a price. At the end of the meal, I pay that price. The company that employs the people that produce the meal is responsible for paying them all a fair wage. They get paid a proper wage even if the restaurant has only one customer that evening.

          --
          sudo mod me up
          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:28PM (9 children)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:28PM (#620102) Homepage Journal

            The company that employs the people that produce the meal is responsible for paying them all a fair wage. They get paid a proper wage even if the restaurant has only one customer that evening.

            See, here's where we differ: you want some magical, infitely deep-pocketed Employer to be responsible for making sure employees are comfortably able to pay their bills and have enough left over to buy a big ole bag of weed every two weeks. I prefer the employees to be responsible for how much they earn according to their ability. They do a far better job and they make significantly more than they would otherwise.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:47PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:47PM (#620114)

              Just make the tip mandatory and then everyone wins!

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:25PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:25PM (#620133)

              What the fuck, buzz? Bad argument!

              The employer is an EMPLOYER, not a contractor. The moment when waitstaff are independent agents who get a commission or whatever for every client they serve, sure. Until then...

              I know! Here's the thought experiment for you!

              I get hired as a waiter, by a restaurant that pays only tips, to work 1pm-5pm, 7d/wk. My job includes cleaning, rollups, etc while not waiting tables. That restaurant then starts putting signs out front at noon, saying 'come back at 5pm.' Now I'm earning $0/hr but doing productive work for a profiting company.

              Get it now?

              Servers are not responsible for:
              -advertising
              -scheduling appropriate waitstaff count
              -kitchen supply
              -weather
              -etc.

              All of these - yes even weather!* - need to be accounted for by the employer. They have employed me. They haven't offered me piecemeal work at any tables I can find where people are hoping for food. If my employer decides to schedule double the waitstaff, without clientele increasing, why am I suddenly working the same hours for half the pay? It's not my decision when to open the doors in the morning, nor how many others I will work beside.

              Paying employees of a larger entity in tips is /insane/ if you put /any/ thought into it.

              Paying individuals a tip, or even making the tip be the whole payment, is fine. It's not fine to get free labour, with the hope of tips if all goes well. That's an abusive power structure.

              *weather: really! if a rainstorm is coming in, let some staff go home, it's going to be a quiet night! If it's a balmy game night, call extras in to handle the volume! If you'd ever worked in a kitchen you'd understand this.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by crafoo on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:25PM (5 children)

              by crafoo (6639) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:25PM (#620193)

              If an employer cannot pay a livable wage they should not be allowed to operate their business. Either their business is not worth having around, or they are so bad at it someone else should take over their customers.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:55PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:55PM (#620207)

                FDR is dead and your 20th century New Deal fantasy is dead. We live in the 21st century now when social media tech bros are billionaires and selfish sacks of rotting pigshit like Buzzard are mighty successful.

                The Great Depression is repeating and the Gilded Age is repeating and stupid shit like Buzzard is too stupid to notice.

                Morons like Buzzard learned nothing from history. Buzzard wouldn't learn his lesson if he received a railroad spike through his worthless skull.

                So fuck you because Buzzard got his.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:12PM

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:12PM (#620260) Homepage Journal

                  If you can't make more than your employer would pay you for waiting tables off of tips, absolutely fuck you. Your dumb ass just failed at smiling and keeping glasses from running empty. If I can do a job involving constant interaction with other people well, anyone can do that job well if they make even a miniscule effort to.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:13PM (2 children)

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:13PM (#620261) Homepage Journal

                Let me get this straight... It's perfectly fine for wait staff to be paid less than they make now so long as the money passes through the employer's hands on the way to theirs? You are a fucking moron and an asshole.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 10 2018, @11:00PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 10 2018, @11:00PM (#620701)

                  > It's perfectly fine for wait staff to be paid less than they make now so long as the money passes through the employer's hands on the way to theirs?

                  That's not at all what was said. How did you read that? Did you skip a couple of words?

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday January 10 2018, @11:38PM

                    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday January 10 2018, @11:38PM (#620718) Homepage Journal

                    That is exactly what you said.

                    A) Competent wait staff always make more than the employer thinks they should.
                    B) The only difference between the customer paying them and adding it to the price then having the employer pay them is the extra step.

                    But lets be real clear here. You don't give a shit about any of that. What you care about is that wait staff that can't be arsed to even half-ass it don't make a livable wage while those that work hard make out quite nicely. It's nothing but democracy, asshat. One customer, one vote. Your notions though? I've heard something like them before... What was it? Something like "From each according to his ability. To each according to his greed." wasn't it?

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:58AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:58AM (#619895)

      Tipping is sexist now. Peak SJW reached.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:51AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:51AM (#619905)

        Financial domination is acceptable.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:47PM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:47PM (#619978) Homepage
      What you should hate is the assinine law that lets some businesses ignore previously agree-upon laws regarding fair payment of workers.

      "Serving staff get tips, therefore they don't need the minimum wage" is pure unadulterated bullshit, and it *obliges* the underpaid staff to hawk for tips, which people like you don't like. Therefore you should, if you're being consistent, abhor that law. Write to your congresscritter - get it changed.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:12PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:12PM (#620026) Journal
      I tip. Sorry, I disagree about the strip dancer vibe.
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:32PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:32PM (#620041)

      Move to a civilized country. The American tipping system is there to encourage a separation between the rich and the peasants. By forcing you to tip "the help", they encourage you to feel a degree of entitlement. It's all part of a messed-up system that discourages people from recognizing their actual fiscal status and instead feeling that "I'm not poor, I'm just temporarily not rich, but I will be soon".

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:15PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:15PM (#620159)

        "I'm not poor, I'm just temporarily not rich, but I will be soon".

        Incisive insight into the US mentality. Thank you!

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:30AM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:30AM (#619885)

    Unless they have some seriously exotic payment equipment, lines now move slower. I swear, credit cards must go over a 50 baud modem to a 386 running Windows 95 that runs an S/360 emulator.

    The real reason is one or both of:

    1. tracking customers in a giant database

    2. keeping out the riff raff undesirables, who might not have credit cards

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:38AM (2 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:38AM (#619890) Journal

      Unless they have some seriously exotic payment equipment

      It may be a "race to the bottom" for all the other businesses.

      Where I leave, the cards have a NFC chip and even the small coffee shop (kiosk size rather) of the train-station in the almost-countryside burb I'm living has contact-less POS terminals - great for the first sip of (awful) espresso I'm having in the morning.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:40AM (1 child)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:40AM (#619891) Journal

        Sorry, not NFC, RFID.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:21PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:21PM (#619985)

          the almost-countryside burb

          RFID

          TWO posts, TWO typos? ... did you mean "Mayberry R. F. D. " ?
                You silly Goober.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Whoever on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:51AM (2 children)

      by Whoever (4524) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:51AM (#619893) Journal

      I think it is due to the chips on cards. Each transaction has to be validated, rather than batch processing them.

      It's quite noticeable that the chip-and-pin cards are processed much faster in the UK, where I believe batch processing is still allowed.

      • (Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:53PM

        by TheRaven (270) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:53PM (#619993) Journal

        It's quite noticeable that the chip-and-pin cards are processed much faster in the UK, where I believe batch processing is still allowed.

        Nope. All EMV (chip and pin or contactless) transactions in the UK are validated in realtime. Even the 50 baud that the grandparent suggests would probably be fine, because the total data exchanged in both directions is only a few hundred bytes. The problem is that the US was so late to the EMV party that everyone else realised it was a great opportunity to dump all of their ancient equipment. The UK was quite late, because our banks didn't want to pay to license a French patent, so waited 20 years until it expired. The US was about a decade later, and so got all of the crappy left-over or returned first-gen equipment. The US banks also have archaic back-end infrastructure, which doesn't help even for the businesses that do buy decent EMV terminals.

        Contactless transactions in the UK take under a second, chip and pin is typically bottlenecked on entering the pin (so usually takes a second longer than it takes to enter a 4-6 digit pin).

        --
        sudo mod me up
      • (Score: 2) by leftover on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:30PM

        by leftover (2448) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:30PM (#620104)

        The entire purpose of moving to EMV cards was to provide an offline validation mechanism at the point of sale. It took off in Europe because the online infrastructure at the time was more spotty than it is now. Telephone line service (POTS) was widely available in the US and good enough for online validation so EMV never took off.

        In both cases, the validation process is separate from the financial transaction. Clearing is done in batch form, up through the merchant banks and back down through consumer banks' card processors.

        --
        Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:09AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:09AM (#619914)

      Unless they have some seriously exotic payment equipment,

      Have you been to Walmart recently? Not sure about where you are, but in Canada all CC payments were under 1 second in duration. Longest is when you are required to enter your PIN, but tap-and-pay is very fast.

      tracking customers in a giant database

      Yes, although many do this via facial recognition now.

      keeping out the riff raff undesirables, who might not have credit cards

      Then they can pay with debit? Or have those pre-paid CC that some employers use to pay them with.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:39AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:39AM (#619923)

        Longest is when you are required to enter your PIN

        Aka, when they are pretending[1] to care about security. As in, the rest of the time they don't even pretend, there is no security at all.

        [1] We've started moving from 8 chars [a-zA-Z0-9] to 12 or 16 chars, and they insist on 4 chars [0-9]... That's pretending, at most.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:10PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:10PM (#620187)

      Lots of credit cards go over satellite link - especially those at gas pumps.

      The new "smart chips" seem to both be 3x slower than the old swipe system and also have been passed through an anti-user-experience design process making sure to require the card to be inserted when the user would naturally pull it out, require a signature when the user is still holding their wallet from getting the card out, instantly make a "you've done something WRONG" audible alarm when it's time to remove the card, and otherwise set an extremely low bar from which to improve in the future.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 2) by richtopia on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:47PM

      by richtopia (3160) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:47PM (#620200) Homepage Journal

      Also depends where you live. If the USA stopped adding the tax after advertised price or adopted Swedish rounding, change would be a couple of bills and people wouldn't need to fish a penny out of their pocket.

  • (Score: 2) by julian on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:33AM (7 children)

    by julian (6003) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:33AM (#619887)

    I was hesitant to use Apple Pay, but now when stores don't accept it I get annoyed. I do carry cash for emergencies and small tips but I hate having to use traditional cards or cash. Making change is a plague, how many man-hours does it waste every day? It's especially bad because of our horrible coin denominations. We still have a penny, for fuck's sake. If we had sensible increments it wouldn't be so bad.

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:56AM (3 children)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:56AM (#619909)

      Making change is a plague, how many man-hours does it waste every day? It's especially bad because of our horrible coin denominations. We still have a penny, for fuck's sake. If we had sensible increments it wouldn't be so bad.

      One thing I don't understand is why there aren't mechanical change-dispensing machines that allow you to take some or all of your change, and then either put it in a tip jar or allow the coins to be automatically fed back into a hopper, counted, and sorted back into the machine for re-dispensing. It's not as if we don't have far more complex mechanical systems in modern use.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:47AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:47AM (#619924)

        It was either Albertson's or Safeway. The coins drop out of a machine. You can then grab them or not.

        • (Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:15PM

          by Nerdfest (80) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:15PM (#619964)

          Wendy's used to have them as well, here in Canada at least.

        • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday January 10 2018, @04:32AM

          by krishnoid (1156) on Wednesday January 10 2018, @04:32AM (#620340)

          Right, I've seen these too. I was wondering why there couldn't be a hopper/counter/sorter that could feed them back in to the top, so you could take the change you needed, donate or pay forward the rest, and leave the coins so they could go back in the machine to be redispensed if you didn't want your change.

    • (Score: 1) by doc_doofus on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:25PM (2 children)

      by doc_doofus (6746) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:25PM (#620066) Homepage
      Until you remove any and all percentage based charges added to a bill/invoice, you will need pennies. So, you will never get rid of pennies, because the governments will always require taxes be charged to the consumer, collected by the retailer and submitted to them.
      --
      "Just because you're real, doesn't necessarily mean that you're intelligent." - Inspirobot
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:26PM (1 child)

        by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:26PM (#620098) Journal

        In Canada, they DID get rid of the penny: if you pay cash, the decimal is rounded up or down (2cents or under, rounded down/3cents or over, rounded up IANAL/Financial accountant, your penny rounding may vary i have no idea, really... just pulling numbers out my ass). You either pay 0cents or 5cents, etc.

        If you pay debit/credit, you pay the pennies.... a good reason to pay cash if it will save you the 2-3cents....if you don't have a freaking life!!!

        :)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: 5, Touché) by captain normal on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:36AM (14 children)

    by captain normal (2205) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:36AM (#619889)

    Did the submitter actually read the Wikipedia link? Especially the section on the U.S.? If someone goes into a restaurant and orders something and is served and tenders cash when presented with the bill, it must be accepted or the debt must be excused. Now maybe if there is a clear and very obvious signage claiming that only a credit card is to be presented for payment the business might get away with such a requirement. Like many fastfood restaurants take your order and payment before serving food. But virtually all such businesses take cash. Even if the business can survive possibly losing the 10% of it's customers who want to pay cash, it still may be operating on shaky legal grounds.

    One other thing is the claim that making change takes longer than 40 seconds...maybe if your staff is on drugs or something. The 40 seconds is about right for card transactions. I've timed smart card transactions at grocery markets, and find that those transactions take at least 30 seconds and often as much as 45. Cash transactions on the other hand usually take only 10~15 seconds.

    --
    When life isn't going right, go left.
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:38AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:38AM (#619901)

      But if someone loads up a shopping cart and shows up at the register, there is no debt yet, thus no obligation for the merchant to settle with cash.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:59AM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:59AM (#619938)

      cash [...] must be accepted or the debt must be excused.

      That is my understanding of the situation in the UK; Refusing an offer of payment in legal tender discharges the debt. I pay in cash for most small transactions because I find it easier to budget.

      There are also people, he said, who want to keep their meal off the books — if they're having an affair, for example.

      Conversely perhaps they're taking someone out on a date? Make the other party pay half in cash and then put the bill through company books as entertainment, exactly like any self-respecting, self-employed person does? Perhaps someone wants to discuss a surprise birthday party or interpersonal problems and doesn't want their partner to see it on the statement? Suggesting an affair says more about the person speculating than those being speculated about, specifically that they are small minded and need to mind their own business!

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:57AM (5 children)

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:57AM (#619948) Journal

        Yes. But there are a few wrinkles with cash. The debtor has to offer legal tender in the amount of the debt or greater. The creditor is not required to have change.

        Friend of mine would fill his truck with gas at these stations that say they won't accept any bills larger than $20. Sometimes he had only a $50 bill, and he would offer it for nearly $50 worth of gas, and often they would refuse to take it until he explained that they weren't required to give him change and that if they didn't take the bill, he would drive off, with his debt discharged and if they called the police, the police would side with him. They always took the bill after hearing that.

        Another wrinkle is that the one cent coin somehow doesn't have the same exalted status as all the rest of the cash denominations. I think that's so vending machines don't have to deal with them. Also I understand it is illegal to destroy money. No melting down of nickels for their metal. But pennies, yes, can legally destroy them. Many tourist places have those vending machines that take 51 cents to let you turn a crank and watch it smash the penny, imprinting a design on it, and returning it.

        • (Score: 1) by GDX on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM

          by GDX (1950) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM (#619973)

          This varies a lot for place to place, where I live the more typical is not that they do not accept large bills but that they offer a maximum of possible change. Basically in one concrete place if you offer a 200€ bill for a 160€ purchase they accept it but they don't accept a 100€ bill for a 20€ purchase as they only offer a maximum of 50€ change. And I think that this is a more sane approach.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:21PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @06:21PM (#620132)

          No, you're not allowed to destroy pennies, either. Those 51-cent machines don't actually stamp your penny - they just have a supply of blank copper pieces and stamp those, and keep the penny.

          • (Score: 1) by Farmer Tim on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:04PM

            by Farmer Tim (6490) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:04PM (#620183)
            That’s even worse than destroying pennies! Do you realise how many adventurers are eaten by gelatinous cubes every year getting those copper pieces?
            --
            Came for the news, stayed for the soap opera.
        • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:05PM (1 child)

          by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:05PM (#620151) Journal

          Friend of mine would fill his truck with gas at these stations that say they won't accept any bills larger than $20. Sometimes he had only a $50 bill, and he would offer it for nearly $50 worth of gas, and often they would refuse to take it until he explained that they weren't required to give him change and that if they didn't take the bill, he would drive off, with his debt discharged and if they called the police, the police would side with him. They always took the bill after hearing that.

          The U.S. Treasury [treasury.gov] disagrees with your friend. He was just being an ignorant jerk. Unless there was a state law requiring a private business to take denominations larger than $20, they didn't have to accept a $50 bill. As long as the payment policy was clearly posted, the police would likely side with the gas station.

          A sale is a contract. A seller is not obligated to agree to the buyer's terms. If a seller posts a sign saying "I only accept goats as payment," that's perfectly legal. Granted, I think a gas station would have a hard time enforcing such a policy if it didn't restrict people who pumped their gas before offering payment. (In such a situation, they'd probably be better off forcing pre-payment in goats before allowing the pump to function.)

          But the "we don't take larger than $20" thing is a pretty standard policy of many small businesses. If it's posted, it's a stated part of the terms of the sales contract, unless otherwise prohibited by law. If your friend attempted to depart the gas station with the gas in his tank without paying, he was stealing, plain and simple. And the gas station could take him to court to force him to settle said debt after the fact. (Although there, I'm not sure they could insist on small bills.)

          • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Wednesday January 10 2018, @04:39AM

            by krishnoid (1156) on Wednesday January 10 2018, @04:39AM (#620341)

            He was just being an ignorant jerk.

            The guy's willing to hand over $50 for less than $50 worth of gas and not get change back; as far as jerks go, it's not like he's hogging a pump, hitting on the cashier, or using all the paper towels or something.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:08AM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:08AM (#619940)

      The pertinent part:

      There is no federal law stating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins for payment. Private businesses are free to create their own policies on whether or not they accept cash, unless there is a specific state law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in cents or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores, and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency as a matter of policy or safety.

      is paraphrased in part from this [federalreserve.gov]:

      There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services.

      How do you read the opposite meaning than the submitter took from it?

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by pendorbound on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:59PM (3 children)

        by pendorbound (2688) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:59PM (#620050) Homepage

        There's a legal difference between "goods and services" and a "debt." No US business may refuse to accept US currency to pay a debt. (Well, they can, but that effectively discharges the debt, unpaid.) The currency says, "legal tender for all debts public and private." Any business MAY refuse to accept cash before they provide goods & services for you.

        Where it gets grey with restaurants is where the difference between goods and serves versus a debt comes in. Fast food, pay when you place your order, before you get your food. That's goods & services. No question. If they don't want to take your cash, they refuse your order. No debt created, no McHolesterol with cheese for you.

        A sit-down restaurant where you order, eat, then pay is different. They've served you food ahead of payment, creating a debt. You can pay that debt with legal tender. If they refuse, the debt is discharged. They may or may not be required to give you change if you don't have exact. Pretty sure that varies by state. If the bill is $42, you slap a $50 on the table and walk out, if they call the cops, the cops will tell them to pound sand. If you throw a fit and say you want your $8 change, chances are you're going home eight bucks lighter than you planned. Instead, throw an extra single down and at least make it a half-way decent tip.

        • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:20PM

          by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:20PM (#620162) Journal

          Yes, there's a reason it's a "gray area," because it's not as clear as you make it out to be either. Yes, you're correct that if someone refuses to pay after a debt is created, and they decided to sue you to recover the debt, they must accept any legal tender in court or whatever.

          But things are a lot more shaky if there's a posted policy on payment options in advance. Even though sales are mostly handled informally, they are basically governed by contract law. A business that clearly informs customers of restrictions on payment in advance is basically stating the terms under which they are willing to render a service or sale. They could easily argue that acceptance of any service is a tacit agreement to said terms. (And on a much more solid legal footing than, say, an obscure clause in an EULA.)

          I dare you to try to do what you claim: go to a restaurant that has a clearly stated and posted policy stating "We don't accept bills larger than $20" or whatever. Then try to offer a $50 or $100 and try to leave when they refuse. Claim that your "debt is discharged." They will call the police. And you will likely end up paying one way or another. (Unless there's a state law prohibiting said business policies.) Eventually you might end up in court. And eventually they might end up being forced to accept your $50 bill there. BUT I guarantee you you're not getting away with "Oh, too bad, my debt is now discharged and I owe you nothing."

        • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:17PM

          by darkfeline (1030) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:17PM (#620220) Homepage

          I think that interpretation gets trumpeted a lot by people playing at being a lawyer (with the caveat that while I'm not a lawyer, I'm at least capable of critical thinking).

          If a company sues you for damaging their one of a kind MacGuffin, they must accept US currency, cash, to settle that debt. They cannot somehow force you to procure a replacement MacGuffin for repayment, or payment via credit card (although the company and the courts may agree to charge extra for the processing and transport of a large amount of physical currency).

          However, eating at a restaurant is a normal exchange between buyer and seller, even if you pay after. If the restaurant did not make their payment policies clear, you might end up settling or going to court, but you are NOT cleared of "debt" by default.

          Now, if you eat and pay (or not pay), the restaurant is satisfied, and then they turn around and sue you for civil damages later and win the case somehow, they are obligated to accept US currency, cash, for the repayment. They cannot force you to repay using a credit card for example.

          --
          Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
        • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday January 10 2018, @10:32PM

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Wednesday January 10 2018, @10:32PM (#620687) Journal

          Legal citation, or stand down. And Juilliard v. Greenman does not count - that case was strictly about whether or not banknotes carried the same force as coin as Legal Tender. (i.e. you say you accept Cash but then refuse banknotes and accept coins... That's not legal.)

          As to your examples.... You drop a $100 bill on the table of a restaurant for a $1 McDouble (yeah, I know Mickey D's don't work like this), restaurant refuses, you try to walk away. They may call the cops. Cops may or may not arrest you for theft. But I sue you, I'm gonna get my dollar.

          By the way... you want authority for the above? Try the U.S. Treasury. https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx [treasury.gov]

          [The Coinage Act of 1965, 31 U.S.C. 5103] means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

          You're welcome.

          --
          This sig for rent.
    • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday January 10 2018, @10:26PM

      by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Wednesday January 10 2018, @10:26PM (#620682) Journal

      I think you're the person who did not read the last sentences on the section on U.S. in the Legal Tender article. What part of...

      There is no federal law stating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins for payment. Private businesses are free to create their own policies on whether or not they accept cash, unless there is a specific state law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in cents or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores, and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency as a matter of policy or safety.

      ....made you think that a place can't accept cash? You place the order, it's given to you, the debt has been created for you to fulfill. Especially if you've eaten it. If you drop a $100 bill on the table, the establishment has every right to tell you they won't accept that and you still owe the debt. Until or unless you go to court to prove that the debt was satisfied.
      That thing on the note that it's Legal Tender for All Debts, Private and Public, was put on there because there were a LOT of questions about whether those notes (especially when backed by gold) were legal for the U.S. Government to print and declare they were money. Has nothing to do with requiring they be accepted as such, and everything to do with the authority of the government to say that they CAN be.
      For order and to avoid conflict, this place would be well advised to post signs that say Credit Cards Only - We Don't Take Cash. But they are also perfectly within their rights to call the cops when someone doesn't drop payment the way they expect, especially if they've published it as such. (Same as a place putting up a sign, "We Don't Take Checks" or Credit Cards.) Stupid for them to do so with cash IMNSHO, but legal.

      --
      This sig for rent.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by drussell on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:47AM (30 children)

    by drussell (2678) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:47AM (#619902) Journal

    ... I will laugh at the clerk and leave the store...

    If you don't take actual currency, or I suppose, perhaps allow some kind of barter for precious metals or other services, then I will not do business with you. Full stop.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by krishnoid on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:51AM (1 child)

      by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:51AM (#619906)

      "Great story, daddy! So did you at least get my insulin prescription back from the pharmacist? I'm starting to get a little shaky."

      • (Score: 1) by knarf on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:22AM

        by knarf (2042) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:22AM (#619919)

        Ah, yes, won't someone think of the children?

        To answer this childish (lol) hyperbole I pose an answer: sheep. Get one, take out its vital bits, process its pancreas into insulin and eat the rest of the critter. See, now you both have insulin for your child *and* you can feed the family. You can extract around 2000 units of insulin per kg of pancreas.

        If you don't like sheep, can't get them or are out of mint sauce you can also use pig or cow pancreas.

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:17AM (24 children)

      by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:17AM (#619916) Homepage

      You have about 10-20 years before you won't be able to pay for anything, anywhere then.

      Cash is dying, except for anonymous transactions.

      I have now met any number of other people who are like myself and literally carry no cash. When we need it, it's a massive hassle if you're not already carrying it, so it's actually more convenient to go elsewhere even if it costs more.

      About the only cash I have in my possession is in two stashes.

      One in my car, coins for parking. Usually added to whenever I'm forced to use cash or people give me cash (e.g. friends to pay their halves of meals, etc.)
      One in my house, a coin jar. Literally, when I get home, I dump all cash straight into it and then don't touch it. Friends, etc. are welcome to dig into it, it's used for "emergencies" and a treat if it gets too full, that's about it.

      Sorry, but I could quite happily set up a large retail business in the centre of London now and never need to touch cash. Your lost custom would be lost in the noise.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by rob_on_earth on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:50AM (1 child)

        by rob_on_earth (5485) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @09:50AM (#619935) Homepage

        I hate parking and then finding the meter, can only be used, once you have signed up, phoned up, downloaded and entered your Car and plate details.

        And none of them are the same.

        I remember the good old days when you had cash stash in your car, but you hardly ever used it because as you entered the car park someone would pass over there old ticket that still had half an hour on it.

        • (Score: 5, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:42AM

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:42AM (#619957) Journal

          Parking meters are a much older scam than those red light cameras. The city is really hoping that they can bust owners of parked cars with huge fines for expired meters, and have been known to fiddle with the timing to make the meters expire too soon. Enforcers hover over nearly expired meters, with tickets already written and ready to be slapped on the car the second the meter expires. Or they don't wait for the last few seconds to tick away. Why bother waiting if it looks like no one can reach the car in time? Another trick is limiting the maximum time the meter can handle to less than what people need, for instance to wait in a long line. Much more lucrative than collecting chicken feed.

          One day after work, a friend of mine who parked on the same street every working day for months discovered that the city had added new parking meters to the street. Of course there was a parking ticket on his car that day.

          I found the story of Sylvia Stayton especially revealing: http://articles.latimes.com/1996-11-10/news/mn-63253_1_parking-meters [latimes.com] She was a nice granny who fed coins into expired meters, and the police actually arrested her for that. She interfered with their racket.

          I'll walk a mile to avoid having to use a parking meter. Or I'll take my business elsewhere. Parking meters are the top reason I never park in the downtown area of a large city.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Unixnut on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:28AM (14 children)

        by Unixnut (5779) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:28AM (#619944)

        > You have about 10-20 years before you won't be able to pay for anything, anywhere then.
        > Cash is dying, except for anonymous transactions.

        I very strongly doubt that is the case. Cash will stay for a long time to come. Perhaps not in dystopian police states (or ones on that path) like the UK, but there are enough people in the world who know how much it is a bad idea to trust banks/government with your money and will try to minimise their exposure thereof (The French, Germans and Swiss are still big on cash, and that is just in the EU), not to mention any number of software companies that now think they (who can barely code a bug free functional app) can start dealing with money.

        I don't trust my phone with my basic details, and you think I am now going to hold money and/or do financial transactions on it? Yeah, as if.

        Not to mention the fact that money in your bank current account is no longer "yours". You have technically loaned the money to the bank, you are an unsecured creditor, and if the bank goes bust, you can lose your money, or just have them skim 30% off your balance without your consent in the form of a bail-in (like they did in Cyprus). Best bit is, the interest earned on loaning your money out to them is, well, nothing. Now they want you to pay to loan the banks money.

        In comparison, you try taking out an unsecured loan from the bank, and see if you can get away with 0% interest, or them paying you to take out the loan. As such, I keep virtually no money in the bank. Either in cash, some in physical metals, and others in all kinds of assets/investments.

        > I have now met any number of other people who are like myself and literally carry no cash. When we need it, it's a massive hassle if you're not already carrying it, so it's actually more convenient to go elsewhere even if it costs more.

        Then you have a very small social circle, live in a very unified monoculture, or just don't go out much. I guess I am the opposite, I carry cash, and perhaps one of my cards, which I use rarely. In fact I use my cards so rarely I have the problem of trying to remember the PIN on those times when I want to use it. So for me it is a massive hassle to not pay with cards (and if I can't remember the PIN, impossible at that time).

        As a result, I will tend to go elsewhere even if it costs more, just not to have to deal with the hassle of cards. Saying that, only once in the 10 years of going out in London have I ever been refused service due to a "no cash" policy. It was a new craft brewery in Shoreditch. I guess they were trying to be "Hip", so I just went to the next craft brewery down the road, which was more than happy to earn some money.

        I wasn't always like this, I used to be big on cards, but experiences led me to realise how much of a bad idea it is, hence the move to cash. And not just because of the spying aspect, or the fact others control your money, but that the system is unreliable. I cannot tell you how many times I have had my card refused, transaction rejected, connection issues between the till and the bank, and all other myriad problems that don't exist if I just hand over cash.

        The straw that broke the camels back was when I was stuck at a petrol station on new years eve for 2 hours because all card payment systems went offline (missing a good NY party) , because in the UK, you fuel up your car first, then go to pay, and I had no cash, relying always on cards. Likewise the ATMs didn't work, so couldn't even get cash out to pay. The entire system was offline.

        > About the only cash I have in my possession is in two stashes.
        > One in my car, coins for parking. Usually added to whenever I'm forced to use cash or people give me cash (e.g. friends to pay their halves of meals, etc.)
        One in my house, a coin jar. Literally, when I get home, I dump all cash straight into it and then don't touch it. Friends, etc. are welcome to dig into it, it's used for "emergencies" and a treat if it gets too full, that's about it.

        I don't have stashes as such. I have cash on hand, usually for the week (good for budgeting), then cash at home, and a coin jar that occasionally gets emptied into a coin sorting machine at the local supermarket (I get vouchers back off my shop).

        > Sorry, but I could quite happily set up a large retail business in the centre of London now and never need to touch cash. Your lost custom would be lost in the noise.

        Possibly (but I doubt it, the amount of Saudis and general rich folk that buy expensive stuff for wads of cash in London is something to behold), but London is not representative of England, or even the rest of Europe, let alone the rest of the world. Some people willingly submit themselves to to spied upon and taken advantage of, others are ignorant of what they are doing, but that is no reason to ignore the rest of the world that are neither.

        • (Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:00AM (10 children)

          by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:00AM (#619949) Homepage

          "(The French, Germans and Swiss are still big on cash, and that is just in the EU)"

          I have travelled through all three of those, for months on end, without a single cash-related problem.

          "I don't trust my phone with my basic details, and you think I am now going to hold money and/or do financial transactions on it? Yeah, as if."

          Nor do I. That's a phone. It's also running general purpose code supplied by unknown outside third-parties. That's just stupid.

          "Not to mention the fact that money in your bank current account is no longer "yours". You have technically loaned the money to the bank, you are an unsecured creditor, and if the bank goes bust, you can lose your money, or just have them skim 30% off your balance without your consent in the form of a bail-in (like they did in Cyprus)."

          Nope. The UK guarantees all current account deposits up to ... is it £80k per person? Partly because of the Iceland crisis, but also because they always did as they recognise that's where "money" actually exists nowadays (they just raised the limit). Zimbabwe had cash. It didn't do them much good.

          "Best bit is, the interest earned on loaning your money out to them is, well, nothing. Now they want you to pay to loan the banks money.""

          The interest earned on anything is an absolute pittance, if you haven't noticed. Leave £10k in a bank for 10 years untouched and you might earn enough to compensate for inflation and a few hundred quid on top. They are providing a service for that "free" interest, however - being able to access your money in any country, use it on any website, get it queried, refunded, etc. without any hassle. Something cash doesn't offer.

          "In comparison, you try taking out an unsecured loan from the bank, and see if you can get away with 0% interest, or them paying you to take out the loan. As such, I keep virtually no money in the bank. Either in cash, some in physical metals, and others in all kinds of assets/investments."

          Banks are not the only places to offer cards. Pre-pay cards exist, for example, and even debit cards for children (my 9-year-old has a Visa card, to teach her how to handle money... it's an official card from a company called GoHenry, it has her name on it and everything. But her spending is strictly monitored and controlled and she can never get into debt). I distrust banks too, and literally have never even looked at using them beyond being a storage of funds, paying them nothing to do so.

          "Then you have a very small social circle, live in a very unified monoculture, or just don't go out much."

          Not really. It's quite common. Go stand by any Tube station and watch as people get the coffee and paper with a card, tag onto the Oyster reader to pay for their journey, go for lunch on card, pay all their bills by DD, etc.

          "I cannot tell you how many times I have had my card refused, transaction rejected, connection issues between the till and the bank, and all other myriad problems that don't exist if I just hand over cash."

          I can. Zero. I've literally never had a card refused or not work (if the hardware is clearly operational - worst case is "Could you come over to this till, please?"). Hell, I went to an antiques market full of old fogies selling tat on rickety tables in an old community hall, and they all have Zettle.

          "The straw that broke the camels back was when I was stuck at a petrol station on new years eve for 2 hours because all card payment systems went offline (missing a good NY party) , because in the UK, you fuel up your car first, then go to pay, and I had no cash, relying always on cards. Likewise the ATMs didn't work, so couldn't even get cash out to pay. The entire system was offline."

          Never had that happen. But, to be honest, I would never try to fill up a car on NYE. And the solution is simple "I only have a card and you have no way to take that... Okay, sir, can you just fill out this form". I've done it before with friends when they realised they didn't have any money. Any large chain gives you a form, checks some ID, and gives you something like a week to pay and then charges you £10 on top if you don't.

          This isn't a case for "never use a card". It's a case of "what do those shops do when their system is down". They are just as likely to not be able to operate the pumps or ring up your goods at all, to be honest.

          "London is not representative of England, or even the rest of Europe, let alone the rest of the world."

          It doesn't need to be. It's millions of people, some portion of whom would be able to live cash-free today which they couldn't do 10 years ago. That portion was smaller 10 years ago, bigger now, will be bigger still in 10 years. At the point that having to put coin/note readers into every device (and updating them every time they change the pound coins!) becomes less than just sticking in a card reader / RFID reader, fewer places will start handling cash. Hell, even banking cash is a risk where people still have to don riot-helmets and lockboxes to take their earnings to the bank.

          It's not about when PEOPLE change. It's about when BUSINESS changes. And business has no reason to not use cards over cash. In fact, the only reason they have at the moment is customer-request. As that dies off, it very, very quickly becomes a business expense to handle cash that you can eliminate by one simple sign: Cards only. People complain that they don't have a card? Well, sir, over here we have our loyalty credit card and/or pre-paid cards you can use in-store. We'll take cash at that one till, for the next few years, until you learn that it's easier for everyone to use cards.

          Go through London, and you no longer ever have to ask "Do you take cards?". I used to have to ask all the time.

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:52PM (2 children)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:52PM (#619992) Homepage
            > Go through London, and you no longer ever have to ask "Do you take cards?". I used to have to ask all the time.

            In taxis? If so, things have changed in the last 12 months.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:04PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:04PM (#619999)

            >> "(The French, Germans and Swiss are still big on cash, and that is just in the EU)"
            >
            > I have travelled through all three of those, for months on end, without a single cash-related problem.

            Really? You can't even pay for public transport e.g. in Hamburg (or pretty much anywhere else) without cash. They only take the local German "debit" cards since they have no fees (or rather, they just use them to find your bank account and take the money from there).
            The convenience store in my home village ONLY takes cash, even though they are owned by the bank (you can go over to the bank and take out cash, if you are not a customer you'll pay for that though).
            Also, even at big stores like ALDI and LIDL it's only since maybe 4 years you can pay with card, and only since about 1 year they take CREDIT cards. And not sure they still have the 10 Euro minimum for that.

          • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:15PM (3 children)

            by Pino P (4721) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:15PM (#620030) Journal

            The UK guarantees all current account deposits up to ... is it £80k per person?

            So does the FDIC in the United States.

            I went to an antiques market full of old fogies selling tat on rickety tables in an old community hall, and they all have Zettle.

            How much did they have to pay for the equipment and ongoing services needed to use iZettle [izettle.com] or Square [squareup.com], such as a phone or tablet, card reader, and cellular Internet access? Say you wanted to use iZettle or Square payment processing at your next garage sale or yard sale [wikipedia.org]. How much would it cost to set up, and how much of each transaction would payment processing cost?

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:03PM (2 children)

              by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:03PM (#620051) Homepage

              I'll tell you, because I've done it.

              My ex-gf makes pottery. She was talking about selling it, I bought her a iZettle reader for her phone. Does chip-and-pin, NFC, Apple Pay, etc.

              You could either pay £49 for the fancy bluetooth standalone reader, and a smaller commission charge.

              Or £0 and a larger commission.

              Very much reliant on "the phone you have in your back pocket" but if you already have one... literally nothing. And she only had an old smartphone but it still worked. I reckon 95%+ of people have a phone they could use and a data package that would work already.

              Just add a few percent to the price you negotiate, even if you need to say "Look, it's £10 cash, or £11 if you want to use your card".

              To be honest, it's incredibly easy to get one. And they work remarkably well. Hell, they'll even sort out receipts, accounts etc. for you for free with their app.

              • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:29PM

                by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:29PM (#620103) Journal

                I can see the pros now:

                $20 for a blow job if you pay cash...$25 for a card.

                :)

                --
                --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
              • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:33PM

                by Pino P (4721) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:33PM (#620167) Journal

                You could either pay £49 for the fancy bluetooth standalone reader, and a smaller commission charge.

                How much is the minimum commission per transaction? Consider that 0.50 to 1.00 USD transactions are common in a garage sale.

                Very much reliant on "the phone you have in your back pocket" but if you already have one... literally nothing.

                It's possible to have a phone but no data service. Currently my Android phone is on a $36/yr T-Mobile plan that includes 0 MB of cellular data transfer allowance per month. Other phone users whose plans do include cellular data may have used up all their data for the month. An access point in your garage should let you run a garage sale on your wired home Internet, but not away from your home.

                Just add a few percent to the price you negotiate, even if you need to say "Look, it's £10 cash, or £11 if you want to use your card".

                That depends on whether your national law, provincial law, and merchant agreement allow cash discounts.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by Nuke on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:18PM

            by Nuke (3162) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:18PM (#620061)

            Ledow wrote :-

            Unixnut wrote :-

            "Best bit is, the interest earned on loaning your money out to them is, well, nothing. Now they want you to pay to loan the banks money.""

            The interest earned on anything is an absolute pittance, if you haven't noticed. Leave £10k in a bank for 10 years untouched and you might earn enough to compensate for inflation and a few hundred quid on top.

            You missed Unixnut's point. He is talking about the interest the bank earns by using your money, not the interest you earn by lending it to the bank. Banks can get much more interest - by lending it in turn to pay-day loan companies, for example.

            Ledow wrote :-

            And business has no reason to not use cards over cash.

            My wife does the bookkeeping for a small specialist supplier, and they do not take cards; they looked into it and found the expense of installation is horrific, and the ongoing expenses and the cut the bankers take are horrific too. In the UK many shops refuse to take cards for purchases below 10 GBP because the banker's cut makes it not worthwhile. I was in a bookshop recently when the shopkeeper launched into a long and emphatic diatribe about the downside of cards for her business when a customer offered to pay with one; I paid cash. The only reason most shops offer card transactions is that their rivals do and they'd go iout of business if they did not. My wife's company can refuse cards because they are specialists and customers would need to go a long way to find an alternative.

            Ledow certainly seems to lead a charmed or sheltered life, never having had a problem with cards, DDs etc.

          • (Score: 2) by Unixnut on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:30PM

            by Unixnut (5779) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:30PM (#620195)

            > I have travelled through all three of those, for months on end, without a single cash-related problem.

            Yes, because they are not "cash only", they will happily accept card payments. Very few places are "cash only", and usually because they want to keep money off the books for tax purposes.

            However they will happily accept cash, and a lot of the locals transact in cash.

            > Nope. The UK guarantees all current account deposits up to ... is it £80k per person? Partly because of the Iceland crisis, but also because they always did as they recognise that's where "money" actually exists nowadays (they just raised the limit). Zimbabwe had cash. It didn't do them much good.

            Yes, but they don't say when they will pay up. If there is a massive bank fun, the government would have to print a lot of money, which is inflationary. Sure, you might eventually get your balance back, but that £80k might buy a loaf of bread. Not keeping your wealth in the bank is the better option.

            Also, that is only in the case of a bank going under, not a bail in, in those situations you would get money taken out of your account. It is an EU law, which the UK has ratified (quietly), although not sure what will happen now with Brexit. They would be wise to get rid of that little rule IMO.

            > The interest earned on anything is an absolute pittance, if you haven't noticed. Leave £10k in a bank for 10 years untouched and you might earn enough to compensate for inflation and a few hundred quid on top.

            Yes, my point exactly. However try to take out a loan, and they will charge you a lot of interest. So between giving a bank my money for a pittance, and keeping it outside earning decent returns (around 10% so far, ignoring cryptocurrencies, which are more like gambling right now), I will keep as much of out outside of the bank.

            > They are providing a service for that "free" interest, however - being able to access your money in any country, use it on any website, get it queried, refunded, etc. without any hassle. Something cash doesn't offer.

            Actually, nowadays they want to charge you. I didn't realise people actually pay to have a credit card nowadays. My cards are grandfathered in due to having them so long, but if I want a new CC, they want me to pay (indeed a lot of current accounts want to charge me monthly now too).

            And yes, there are benefits to using cards. I am not arguing against card based transactions (hell, it is the only way I buy stuff online). Just saying that I don't believe a cash-free future is on the horizon. Most likely we will continue to have both side by side.

            > Banks are not the only places to offer cards. Pre-pay cards exist, for example, and even debit cards for children (my 9-year-old has a Visa card, to teach her how to handle money... it's an official card from a company called GoHenry, it has her name on it and everything. But her spending is strictly monitored and controlled and she can never get into debt). I distrust banks too, and literally have never even looked at using them beyond being a storage of funds, paying them nothing to do so.

            Yes, but still have the security and tracking issues. Admittedly I had one of those accounts as a child. HSBC (or Midland Bank as it was then) offered them and my parents took it for me. I agree, it taught me a lot, even if I never actually used the card (still have it, pristine and unsigned, in my accounts folder).

            > I can. Zero. I've literally never had a card refused or not work (if the hardware is clearly operational - worst case is "Could you come over to this till, please?"). Hell, I went to an antiques market full of old fogies selling tat on rickety tables in an old community hall, and they all have Zettle.

            Well, not my experience. I can (and have) had cards rejected multiple times a month. Can't tell you how embarrassing it is going out on a date and having your card refused by the restaurant, or holding up the line at the supermarket trying repeatedly to pay for something, and being rejected multiple times.. Thankfully with cash I know it will be accepted, no matter what.

            > Never had that happen. But, to be honest, I would never try to fill up a car on NYE. And the solution is simple "I only have a card and you have no way to take that... Okay, sir, can you just fill out this form". I've done it before with friends when they realised they didn't have any money. Any large chain gives you a form, checks some ID, and gives you something like a week to pay and then charges you £10 on top if you don't.

            Yes, I made that mistake, however if I had cash, I could fill up whenever I wanted as long as the station was open, I would not have to work on the banks time, I have access to my money, on hand, whenever I want. Now, I can pay whenever I want, even on NYE, or if the systems are down (like with that outage a few months ago, was it Natwest?).

            Yes, after 2 hours there, they realised the system wasn't coming back soon, and let me go, after taking my driving licence and my promise to come back tomorrow to settle the bill. Still, a very uncomfortable situation, and ruined my NYE. Petrol stations are far more strict, because people filling up and then driving off is a big problem, so they don't really believe you "will come back later". So, now with cash, I don't have to worry about that, which is one less thing to worry about.

            > This isn't a case for "never use a card". It's a case of "what do those shops do when their system is down". They are just as likely to not be able to operate the pumps or ring up your goods at all, to be honest.

            I have never had that happen. Unless there is a power cut (which doesn't happen in London often), they can ring up the till and process my payment with cash just fine. Likewise the petrol station worked fine, apart from no card based transactions.

            > Not really. It's quite common. Go stand by any Tube station and watch as people get the coffee and paper with a card, tag onto the Oyster reader to pay for their journey, go for lunch on card, pay all their bills by DD, etc.

            To be fair "TFL travelers" are a monoculture. In that tightly controlled and monitored system, where there is really only one choice (and people are conditioned to use contactless) you don't offer alternatives, so all the people will use the most convenient (or only) option available to them.

            Compare it to the countryside in the UK, or even parts of London outside of the commuter/underground system, and you will find cash is still king (hell, where I lived, many places were "cash only", refused all cards and contactless).

            > It doesn't need to be. It's millions of people, some portion of whom would be able to live cash-free today which they couldn't do 10 years ago. That portion was smaller 10 years ago, bigger now, will be bigger still in 10 years. At the point that having to put coin/note readers into every device (and updating them every time they change the pound coins!) becomes less than just sticking in a card reader / RFID reader, fewer places will start handling cash. Hell, even banking cash is a risk where people still have to don riot-helmets and lockboxes to take their earnings to the bank.

            There is a right tool for the job. I am not arguing for a cash only world, just that a "cash only world" is just as unlikely as a "cashless world", despite governments pushing really really hard for it.

            > It's not about when PEOPLE change. It's about when BUSINESS changes. And business has no reason to not use cards over cash. In fact, the only reason they have at the moment is customer-request. As that dies off, it very, very quickly becomes a business expense to handle cash that you can eliminate by one simple sign: Cards only. People complain that they don't have a card? Well, sir, over here we have our loyalty credit card and/or pre-paid cards you can use in-store. We'll take cash at that one till, for the next few years, until you learn that it's easier for everyone to use cards.

            Well, seeing as many business still offer me a "cash discount" when I don't pay by card, seems they still have an incentive over cards. I suspect it is to do with card transaction costs (which are borne by the traders), along with less overhead for processing. I am happy to get a discount in return for using an anonymous, simple and direct system of value exchange. Others who are willing to pay more for the "convenience" of cards are also welcome, I have no problem people using whichever system they want.

            That, along with a large number of people I encounter preferring cash over cards, means that customer requests "dying off" is not going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps it is the different social circles I live in/encounter to you, but it goes to show that there are whole groups of people who do not live, work or handle money like you do.

            The only way cashless societies can happen if they are forced upon unwilling people, which I don't doubt the government will try to do. The ability to tax, monitor, control and deny anybody their wealth is an immense power over those people, and governments love power.

            And quite frankly, I don't care how easy cards are to use, they are still a bad idea. There are more important things than convenience and ease of use.

            > Go through London, and you no longer ever have to ask "Do you take cards?". I used to have to ask all the time.

            Fair enough, I never had to ask if they took cards, primarily because those who were "cash only" had it displayed clearly on their tills, so you knew when you entered what to expect. The one time it was "card only" they didn't advertise it anywhere, otherwise would not have wasted time picking out my beer there.

            I never knew a time when you had to ask if someone took cards, it is pretty much a given people accept both, or just cash.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @12:34PM (#619970)

          In Europe cash is and remains king.
          There are however a few exceptions:
          Nordic countries, UK and Ireland are less cash heavy than other EU Countries.

          As I Belgian there are certain groups I want to know as little as possible about my or anyone's finances...
          Namely the state((s), both Federal, provincial, city and district), the banks (who are legally required to send certain info to the state(s)) and the IRS.
          I trust no government with my money, and no Bank not to do stupid things (like lending out 40 times what the bank has in deposits) so I prefer cash and avoid CC as much as possible.

          Any shop not taking cash is a dead set idiot bunch of fucktards whom will only hear my laughter fade away as they reload whatever I had put in my trolley back on their shelves while I walk off laughing at their idiocracy. Thus costing them whatever they could have possibly saved in change time a thousand times over.

          • (Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:05PM

            by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:05PM (#620053) Homepage

            "Thus costing them whatever they could have possibly saved in change time a thousand times over."

            Only if you represent even 10% of their customers. Otherwise your refusal is lost in the noise of 90% of their customers coming back every time and paying by card (possibly without even realising they don't take cash), and then not having to handle cash (secure tills, the little sucky-tube machines to move it, safes, two people to count it and bag it, security van visits to pick it up, banking fees, etc.)

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:59PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:59PM (#620083)

          (The French, Germans and Swiss are still big on cash, and that is just in the EU)

          The Swiss are not in the EU.

      • (Score: 2) by chromas on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:28AM (4 children)

        by chromas (34) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 09 2018, @10:28AM (#619945) Journal

        Usually added to whenever…people give me cash (e.g. friends to pay their halves of meals, etc.)

        Do your banks do Zelle? [zellepay.com] Your friends can throw money at you and it's usually free (last I checked) because it's a service provided by the banks instead of a third party.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:05AM

          by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:05AM (#619951) Homepage

          Or PayM.
          Or PingIt.
          Or Paypal, even.

          Loads of places do that and most only need a mobile phone number or email or similar to send money to people.

          I mean "those friends who only have cash", and things like work colleagues who don't want to faff about adding you for a single payment and happen to have a tenner on them.

          To be honest, as time goes by - and especially with younger friends - they are infinitely more likely to do a direct bank transfer to me via their banking app, rather than any third-party service.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:56PM (2 children)

          by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:56PM (#619994) Homepage
          > it's usually free ... because it's a service provided by the banks

          What kind of perverted banking system do you have over there?!?! I pay for them to look after my money. I pay for them to accept more of same. I pay for them to give some of my money back to me. I'd pay even more for them to lend their money to me. I pay for them to tell me how much of my money they have. I probably have to pay ground rent while waiting in a queue at the ATM, they're such ferengi.
          --
          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
          • (Score: 2) by ledow on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:15PM (1 child)

            by ledow (5567) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:15PM (#620057) Homepage

            UK banks - I pay my bank nothing. There is a "premium" account that you do pay and get discount travel insurance, etc. but the numbers don't add up enough for me to bother. They keep trying to con me into it, I keep saying no, like most people I know.

            No charge for a card (Visa/MasterCard).
            No charge to pay in.
            No charge to draw out.
            No charge to set up PayM or PingIt (depends on which bank which one you use).
            No charge to send via PayM or PingIt.
            No charge to NOT send anything via PayM or PingIt or equivalent (i.e. if you don't use it very often).
            No charge to talk to someone.

            They pay me a couple of quid in interest every month. It's really not worth the effort to bother about it.

            Sure, if I go overdrawn they charge fees and interest. That's expected, it's basically unarranged credit. But I don't pay for banking services. I can't fathom those who do. Businesses, sure. But personal accounts? Bugger off.

            That's why they have a certain rule, though. You must pay in so-much a month, each month, even if you immediately spend it. They use that to (presumably) generate further interest on that which they keep, and that's the threshold to make it profitable for them to do so. Pretty much every working individual or person receiving benefits will do just that without fail every month.

            People whine about the banking system but they hold my money for free and have to comply with legislation which guarantees I get that money back. And give me a card. And sort out mistakes. And have somewhere I can go to argue or pay in cash etc.

            That side of banking, the high-street banking? I can't fault that. And I've blacklisted at least three banks permanently from my life for other things.

            The irony: If you're a foreigner with no UK credit history, they will charge you for a "basic" bank account that does nothing and has a card you can't even really use online. Even if you earn twice as much. My girlfriend found that out. Only after a few years, or if you move elsewhere, will they give you a "real" account.

            • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:41PM

              by Pino P (4721) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:41PM (#620172) Journal

              That's why they have a certain rule, though. You must pay in so-much a month, each month, even if you immediately spend it.

              The one downside of a "free checking with payroll direct deposit" offer happens when your employer isn't large enough to offer payroll direct deposit, instead requiring employees to either accept paper payroll checks or resign. Or when you're a contractor instead of an employee; there's no "payroll" to speak of, and there may not be a deliverable every month. I've been in both situations.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:02AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:02AM (#619950)

        Thanks for contributing to our mass surveillance society. Your masters are grateful.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:42PM

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:42PM (#619989) Homepage
        Yes, and vinyl will be dead by the year 2000.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Justin Case on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:42PM (2 children)

      by Justin Case (4239) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:42PM (#620076) Journal

      I usually pay cash, because it seems difficult for the bank, government, etc. to simply twiddle a few bits and make my cash disappear. When cash no longer exists, any undesirables can simply be digitally vaporized: no notice, no trial, no recourse.

      Anyway, back on topic for this thread... I recently rung up about $108 of groceries at one of those self-checkout lanes. Just as I attempted to put my cash in the device, the entire store's computer system locked up. All registers frozen. Nothing moving anywhere.

      I had $110 in my hand, ready to insert in the dollar-gobbler. I took my $110 to the nearest store employee and offered to pay the posted price for my purchases. She declined my offer.

      I attempted to clarify: "Are you refusing to accept payment for this merchandise?"

      "Um, ah, our system is down."

      "Not my problem. I'm offering to pay your advertised price for this merchandise. Will you take my money?"

      "Could you just wait a minute."

      "No, actually, I have to be somewhere. Now I am going to head for the door. You can call the cops. If they get here before I'm gone, I will tell them I tried to pay and you refused my legal tender."

      I don't know how that would have played out. I don't even know for sure if I was bluffing. But she decided to accept the cash. Did she turn it over to her employer later? I don't know, but again, I didn't write their code so I'm not responsible for their defects and failure to have a downtime procedure.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 10 2018, @06:17AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 10 2018, @06:17AM (#620361)

        You would be arrested. They are refusing you the merchandise until you pay for it not refusing to accept payment for something you've already received. You only moved the goods around the store, you don't own them yet. You don't have a debt with the store until after they've allowed you to leave with the goods and they never allow the goods out of the store until you pay, so you must always pay first.

        • (Score: 2) by Justin Case on Wednesday January 10 2018, @01:10PM

          by Justin Case (4239) on Wednesday January 10 2018, @01:10PM (#620449) Journal

          But I was trying to pay for it.

          They offered their goods at a stated price. I agreed to pay that price. We had a deal. Now I was trying to fulfill my obligations, but they were refusing to sell to me at the advertised price.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:30AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 09 2018, @08:30AM (#619921)

    1. Stop accepting cash as a business
    2. Announce it to the world
    3. Grow the brand name...

    A business not taking cash sounds a bit crazy, even a tad unpatriotic, until you remember that Amazon and every other eCommerce site has the same policy (sans gift cards).

  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:49AM (6 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @11:49AM (#619962) Journal

    What do they do when the cashless payment system goes down?

    At least if they still accept cash, SOME customers can still help keep money coming in and help resolve the splh (sales per labour hour) where it should be.

    Or should the store send people home hoping the system doesn't come back up? Close the store? Have employees standing idle?

    Stores not wanting to have customers. Silly.

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:58PM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Tuesday January 09 2018, @01:58PM (#619995) Homepage
      > What do they do when the cashless payment system goes down?

      Guessing, just guessing, they'll accept cash. Principles are only worth so much, and cash is worth more.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:03PM (3 children)

      by TheRaven (270) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:03PM (#619997) Journal

      What do they do when the cashless payment system goes down?

      Send everyone home and close. They'll lose less money by cutting a bunch of overheads than by keeping those overheads and having a turnover of 10% of a normal day.

      --
      sudo mod me up
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:46PM (2 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:46PM (#620113) Journal

        In a small organization, yes. Maybe.
        In a larger store: if it happens in the morning, do you wait to see if it comes back (here in Canada, you have to pay people for at least 3 hours wage unless you tell them ahead of time and they stay home (although Wynne/Whine (whatever her name is in Ontario who won't get voted back in no matter how much she wishes) may just have changed something in this dynamic...not sure).
        So, the people come in: no debit/credit...no customers. Do you send staff home, realizing they will be paid for 3 hours no matter what. No, you keep them for 3 hours. Now, you got people coming in for the lunch rush. Do you phone staff and tell them not to come in, thinking the system will still be down or do you have them come in and hope it comes back up.

        Finally, your afternoon people/supper rush people are coming in. Systems still down but may come back up ANYTIME NOW. What do you do.

        If you close, you seriously piss off your customers. If you stay open and the system comes back up, but you've told people to stay home and they've made other plans, what do you do? If you are short staffed your customers get pissed off.

        It's not a no brainer to just close. You've got your district manager saying "You didn't meet your target, cut your hours and you'll have to make up the splh over the next week" even though it wasn't your fault.

        If you stay open and the system comes back up, you're a shiny new star in the sky.
        If you stay open and your system stays down, you are fucked.
        If you close, you are fucked for splh because you've paid your people to show up in the morning and are paying them for their 3 hours NO MATTER WHAT and you're customers are pissed.

        So... do you stay open and hope the system comes up quickly ...... or do you close and hope you have a fabulous next day and will make up your splh?

        It's not a no brainer.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by Justin Case on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:51PM (1 child)

          by Justin Case (4239) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @05:51PM (#620115) Journal

          Systems still down but may come back up ANYTIME NOW. What do you do.

          Ask an old person, who remembers that the Earth used to rotate even before we had systems.

          Seriously, would you be cool with your local emergency room saying "We've been down for three days; don't know why; don't know when; come back later. (Shrug.)"?

          Oh but saving lives is important.

          And your business isn't?

          Your call, I guess. Bear the consequences.

          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:46PM

            by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @07:46PM (#620173) Journal

            Ummmm let's see: emergency room, government funded (or US style, insurance funded or rich people funded) doesn't matter and they take CASH!

            My own business....if I don't take cash....

            Get a reality check. Go be stupid somewhere else.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by Oakenshield on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:10PM

      by Oakenshield (4900) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @02:10PM (#620005)

      That is precisely what I want to know. Recently, I had dinner with a friend and as we left, their credit card system was down. There was a huge line of people trying to pay their bills. Normally, I carry almost no cash, but I happened to have money on me at the time. I'm sure there were people with no cash on them. I was able to skirt the line because I could pay.

      There was no warning when we came in...

      These people better have a backup plan.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:13PM

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @03:13PM (#620029)

    Nearly 90 percent of customers

    In other news, nearly 90 percent of their customers are idiots who don't value their privacy.

    When I walk in to a brick and mortar store, I usually expect to be able to pay cash. (And hopefully without a "loyalty" or "discount" tracking card) Any place that doesn't, probably won't get by business.

    What store would turn away 10% of their customers? or even 1%? Probably the same idiots that used to make their web site only accessible in Internet Explorer 4/5/6 because those pesky less than 10% Netscape users are unimportant and should just switch.

    If you want to make cash a little less annoying for your cashiers, start rounding off to the nearest 0.05 and get rid of pennies. Thanks to inflation, those are worthless and just annoying now. Ah, but those in charge WANT cash to be as big of a headache as possible.

  • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:42PM

    by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday January 09 2018, @04:42PM (#620078)

    Shaving that kind of time doesn't make Bluestone more money. In fact, it's more expensive to be cash-free because of the additional debit and credit card fees tacked on to each transaction.

    Debit cards charge a flat fee of about a quarter per transaction, while credit cards range between 2 and 5 percent per transaction.

    "We didn't make the decision for economic reasons, because if it was purely for economic reasons we'd try to reduce all of our [operating expenses], which means we'd try to take cash for everything. We wanted to make sure the experience was better," said Stone.

    I was trying to figure out whether the summary really was saying that they want people to stop tipping. But apparently this isn't the first four lines of the article verbatim, lol.

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
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