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posted by mrpg on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:23PM   Printer-friendly
from the yes-carrier dept.

San Francisco: Building Community Broadband to Protect Net Neutrality and Online Privacy

Like many cities around the country, San Francisco is considering an investment in community broadband infrastructure: high-speed fiber that would make Internet access cheaper and better for city residents. Community broadband can help alleviate a number of issues with Internet access that we see all over America today. Many Americans have no choice of provider for high-speed Internet, Congress eliminated user privacy protections in 2017, and the FCC decided to roll back net neutrality protections in December.

This week, San Francisco published the recommendations of a group of experts, including EFF's Kit Walsh, regarding how to protect the privacy and speech of those using community broadband.

This week, the Blue Ribbon Panel on Municipal Fiber released its third report, which tackles competition, security, privacy, net neutrality, and more. It recommends San Francisco's community broadband require net neutrality and privacy protections. Any ISP looking to use the city's infrastructure would have to adhere to certain standards. The model of community broadband that EFF favors is sometimes called "dark fiber" or "open access." In this model, the government invests in fiber infrastructure, then opens it up for private companies to compete as your ISP. This means the big incumbent ISPs can no longer block new competitors from offering you Internet service. San Francisco is pursuing the "open access" option, and is quite far along in its process.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:28PM (19 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:28PM (#643104)

    Like roads, perhaps even more importantly than roads, internet access should be universally provided to residents.

    --
    Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:31PM (16 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:31PM (#643108)

      Even more important than roads? What the hell are you smoking? How do you expect your below minimum wage (plus tips) delivery driver to deliver your rich people toys to your giant mansion without roads?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:47PM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:47PM (#643113)

        Yes roads are important, but if you think the most people in SF are living large you've got another thing coming. If you want to get the high SF tech salary you'd better be comfortable paying $1100 for a single room in a 2br/1ba apartment. $1500+ for a tiny studio if you're lucky, more like $2k+ for decent yet still tiny studios.

        Maybe you should travel, find out what the rest of the world is really like before you form such drastic opinions.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (#643117)

          Why do you assume I'm not living in a big city and paying $1000 to rent a room? No, I don't live in SF. Maybe you should pull your fucking head out of your fucking ass and comprehend that SF isn't the only place in the world with a high cost of living, you fucking stupid elitist techbro.

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:15PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:15PM (#643129)

            Ah, so you're just an idiot with an axe to grind. Got it you slack jawed inbreeder.

            • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:46PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:46PM (#643145)

              You fucking stupid piece of shit, can't you even tailor your insults to your audience? We don't have slack jawed inbred redneck hicks here in the inner city urban ghetto.

              • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:53PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:53PM (#643168)

                You fucking stupid piece of shit, can't you even tailor your insults to your audience? We don't have slack jawed inbred redneck hicks here in the inner city urban ghetto.

                Other AC didn't say anything about rednecks or hicks. There's plenty of inbreeding going on in the "inner city urban ghetto", as you've so graciously demonstrated. Well done!

                Although, the phrase "inner city urban ghetto" seems to be a bit out of character for a denizen of such a place, but then there's the inbreeding. Ahhh....Carry on.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:52PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:52PM (#643223)

                Nah given your general anger I figured you are a child of British aristocracy throwing a fit cause you are finally old enough to understand how much you lost when we told you to fuck off. Now your trolling our superior websites like a whiny brat. Inbred was simply the most rational explanation.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @10:09PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @10:09PM (#643194)

          "If you want to get the high SF tech salary you'd better be comfortable paying $1100 for a single room in a 2br/1ba apartment. $1500+ for a tiny studio if you're lucky, more like $2k+ for decent yet still tiny studios."

          Boo fucking hoo. Can't afford it? Move or shut the fuck up.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:43PM (3 children)

            by Thexalon (636) Subscriber Badge on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:43PM (#643221)

            For comparison's sake: There was someone talking about recruiting me to work in Silicon Valley for about 3 times what I was making in Ohio. That was enough to make me sit up and take notice ... until I started doing the math, and I realized that my quality of life was going to go down, my cost of living was going to go way up, and the bottom line would be at best no better. To give an idea of the difference, those tiny little studio apartments that are hard to get are double the rent of the comfortable 4-bedroom house I was living in, in a nice neighborhood with a lovely view of Lake Erie and the sound of waves crashing against the beach.

            --
            The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 2) by Geezer on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:01PM (2 children)

              by Geezer (511) on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:01PM (#643423)

              Shhhhh! Keep it quiet. Don't let on that many places in Ohio have good-paying jobs, affordable housing, and better ISP's than hip west-coast techbro hives. We'll get over-run by Starbucks-seeking hipsters. Especially don't mention the wild paw paws. Let them eat kale.

              My totally uncool SuddenLink cable hookup way down here in Meigs County gives me better RTS gaming performance than anything I ever saw in California. Our cozy 3-bedroom 2-bath bungalow near the Ohio River was only $40K, and if I choose to do some part-time consulting from home there are plenty of companies around Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland that offer easy Pro From Dover gigs.

              Don't Californicate Ohio!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @07:52PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 26 2018, @07:52PM (#644130)

                We've got domesticated Paw Paws popping up here in California thanks to a broad network of specialist seed growing, cutting sharing plant clubs, as well as access to multiple major seed companies (Baker Creek, Kitazawa, Trade Winds Fruit, and dozens of others.) I've got two paw paw seeds sprouting in planters awaiting potting during the warmer part of the year. From common to exotic, we've got it covered here. And unlike you guys, outside the mountain ranges we barely hit freezing 9+ months of the year.

                Having said all that, the Bay Area has turned into a shithole even (smart) natives are avoiding. A friend got a job there to try and break into the 'big league' software industry, and only still has that job because a year on they agreed to let him telecommute from a cheaper region a few counties over (75-100+ miles) rather than give him a raise (which had already been lowballed when he started and after the first year didn't cover his cost of living increases in the CHEAP (just shy of 'might get shot') parts of the bay.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (3 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (#643118)

        My delivery drivers make it down 1/4 mile of unpaved potholes and dirt to drop packages at my door every day.

        I feel like I'm paying Comcast $80 per month (or whatever the hell they want to charge) for similar internet access - flakes out when it rains, craps out my voice connections every few minutes, etc. Meanwhile, my tax dollars are putting 4 additional lanes onto the freeway a mile from my house - not sure we needed those, but I am sure that the project ran into the hundreds of millions.

        --
        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:42PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:42PM (#643143)

          Thank you for admitting you are a lazy rich asshole.

          I don't have delivery drivers, because when I want to buy something, I walk to the goddamned store myself. I have exactly zero packages delivered to my house.

          I pay $20 a month for internet since I'm not a stupid moron who says, "Duh, I gots to pays my $80 to Comcast cuz monopoly and stuff."

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:56PM (#643169)

            It sucks to be poor, huh?

            Is that how you make what little money you have, by sucking?

            Based on your writing, I'd say that was a much better use for your mouth that spewing the bullshit you're spewing here.

            Kissy Kissy honey!

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:39PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:39PM (#643182)

            lazy rich asshole.

            Dayum son, you been livin' high on the hawg with that in-home internet, real folks walk to the public library to get their network access - why you wastin' $20 per month on luxury? And walkin' to the store to get all your needs, you must be one of them lucky folks what lives next to a Circle K or somethin' - yep, that's real smart gettin' everything you need from the corner store, cars and gas and insurance is just for rich bastard asshole suckers.

      • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday February 25 2018, @10:21PM

        by maxwell demon (1608) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 25 2018, @10:21PM (#643607) Journal

        By drone, of course.

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:48PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:48PM (#643114)

      Grow your infrastructure through voluntary trade, not imposition.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @04:41PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @04:41PM (#643480)

        I hear sprinkling some pennies around your infrastructure planters will keep the regulators away.

  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:28PM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:28PM (#643105)

    Mesh networks will fix everything. All of the techbro dudes living in my apartment complex agree with me. Mesh, bro.

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:55PM (#643116)

      It actually would work quite well if enough people ran nodes. There is still the problem of the fiber lines connecting cities, unless those are turned into dumb pipes then mesh networks won't change a whole lot. The only feasible method I can imagine is to have caching nodes that reduce the demand on the actual internet connection. Sneakernet meets meshnet.

      Except for OP, screw that troll he can stand in line at the internet kitchen.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:18PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:18PM (#643132)

        When you grow up, kid, you will realize mesh networks will never work outside of your fantasy land. Here in the real world, nobody runs the nodes.

        Bart: Hey everybody! Let's all turn our desks backwards before Mrs. Krabappel comes in!
                      [everyone agrees vociferously]
        Bart: [laughs, looks around] Huh?
                      [he's the only one facing backwards]
        Edna: All right, backwards boy, back your butt down to detention.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:39PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:39PM (#643142)

          I get that reading comprehension isn't really your thing, but c'mon, 1st fucking sentence "It actually would work quite well if enough people ran nodes"

          What is wrong with you?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:51PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:51PM (#643146)

            MESH WILL NEVER WORK. NOBODY WILL EVER RUN THE NODES. STOP DREAMING.

            Why don't you vote for Hillary a few more times, cretin.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:57PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:57PM (#643189)

              Unless you made mesh the product - hyperlocal social media as a front for internet revolution? Write a halfway decent app, get your botnet to push the new hotness on the existing network until you get some momentum, and everyone wins in the end.

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:32PM (2 children)

        by HiThere (866) on Saturday February 24 2018, @08:32PM (#643159) Journal

        Mesh networks are inherently high latency. This is true even if everybody and his dog and *his* guinea pig are running nodes. That's because there are so many hops. The only way to solve this is to increase the switching speed, and that has its own problems.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:01PM

          by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:01PM (#643209) Homepage

          And just imagine the havoc that all those torrenting freeloaders would inflict on the system.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by frojack on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:21AM

          by frojack (1554) Subscriber Badge on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:21AM (#643240) Journal

          Besides that, nobody has a good solution for load balancing what few gateways exist from the mesh to the Internet, so some poor sod ends up with a saturated link while others go unused. More gateways make it harder to manage, and few gateways make it easier for ISPs to detect AUP violations. If it were easy, whores would do it.

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @01:06AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @01:06AM (#643252)

      Appy mesh appers app mesh apps.

      Apps!

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:30PM (6 children)

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:30PM (#643106) Homepage

    Where is the affordable housing? Why are Facebook employees sleeping out of their cars, why are entire families having to live in rented garages and basements?

    ISP competition doesn't matter at all if you can afford 5000 a month for a studio apartment, because in that case even relatively expensive internet fees are of little consequence. And while this is a good idea, the rest of the U.S. considers "San Francisco" a pejorative phrase and is disgusted by anything associated with it.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:34PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:34PM (#643109)

      You forgot to mention you are a gay faggot.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:51PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 24 2018, @06:51PM (#643115)

      Gee I wonder why people dislike San Francisco.

      Oh right!! Because it is known as a very gay friendly town, and a large minority in the US is homophobic and bigoted. I lived there for a short bit and every person over 50 I met in different areas had to make a wisecrack about gay people and SF. Pretty sad, but hey the bigots are dying off and we'll probably have a civil war that gets the confederacy to finally secede and build a wall to keep the liberals out. I would be OK with that.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:07PM (2 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:07PM (#643122) Homepage

        I don't hate San Francisco, just the people in it. As a libertarian, I have no problems with the 'Mo's having naked parades down the streets and jacking up in broad daylight. What I do have a problem with is the amount of control over tech and culture the area holds, and worst of all, they're every bit as intolerant, oppressive, hypocritical, and preachy as the worst Baptist windbag televangelists.

        Liberals stopped being "the good guys" at least a decade ago. There is plenty of tech work throughout California, and skilled people who are able to move choose to live in San Francisco because they choose to live in a self-reinforcing circle-jerk and lack the self-control to contain their sex-lives indoors. Even the most ardent liberals should be horrified at the amount of censorship going on at Facebook, Google, Twitter, and others.

        The only hope now is for viable alternatives to the above services to emerge.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by DrkShadow on Sunday February 25 2018, @01:33AM

      by DrkShadow (1404) on Sunday February 25 2018, @01:33AM (#643260)

      [That's Great But...] Where is the affordable housing?

      This is discussion of the city creating a fiber network to allow companies to compete as ISP's. Taken to what you're suggesting, the city would own all of the properties, all of the buildings, and farm out management to outside service organizations.

      Do you understand what you're saying? Separately, are you just entirely socialist? If the last item, then just come out and say it, but it's not particularly relevant to this discussion. Do you want to be charged service charges by random company XYZ for providing you with renter services?

      What are you even trying to say?

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Spamalope on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:24PM (3 children)

    by Spamalope (5233) on Saturday February 24 2018, @07:24PM (#643135) Homepage

    high-speed fiber that would make Internet access cheaper and better for city residents

    This is why the utilities have been working for decades to make community/co-op access illegal.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by stretch611 on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:55PM (2 children)

      by stretch611 (6199) on Saturday February 24 2018, @09:55PM (#643188)

      Slight Correction...

      This is why the telecoms have been working for decades to make community/co-op access illegal.

      In many places power utilities have created ISPs to compete. Specifically in TN and NC where the telecoms have bribed the state politicians to limit the expansion.

      --
      Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:45PM

        by NotSanguine (285) <reversethis-{grO ... a} {eniugnaStoN}> on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:45PM (#643222) Homepage Journal

        Slight correction to the correction:

        This is why the telecoms, aided by restrictive legislation written and supported ALEC [alec.org] and supported by elected officials from one side of the aisle (I wonder which one?) have been working for decades to make community/co-op access illegal.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @05:31AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @05:31AM (#643337)

        Chattanooga's publicly-owned power utility is the classic case of expanding into adding internet cables to their infrastructure.

        ...and, yeah, the incumbent companies pulled the backdoor move to limit expansion.
        ...but In Spite of Lobbyist Efforts, over 500 Community Broadband Networks Across US [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [broadbandnow.com]

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:35PM (2 children)

    by NotSanguine (285) <reversethis-{grO ... a} {eniugnaStoN}> on Saturday February 24 2018, @11:35PM (#643214) Homepage Journal

    I find it striking that the comments on this story are of a much different tenor than the discussion on the same subject [soylentnews.org] three weeks ago.

    It seems odd that the same topic would lead to such a different mix of comments. I wonder why?

    Both stories were published on the weekend, so that's probably not it.

    I know TMB does similar stuff from time to time, so perhaps he could look at quality measures for comments (upmods vs. downmods) in different dimensions (day of week, subject matter (e.g., science, tech, politics, etc.), number/length of comments, number of commenters, etc.) and break things down.

    Not sure if that would be too much work to ask of TMB, as I know he's usually pretty busy fixing bugs, keeping things running smoothly and making his presence known when he isn't fishing.

    The results might be interesting.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:11AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:11AM (#643233)

      Discussions are group conversations, and the group for any one article over the course of a day is not always the same, or people don't care about it. Possibly tied to the early troll posts derailing into extremity.

      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Sunday February 25 2018, @01:22AM

        Discussions are group conversations, and the group for any one article over the course of a day is not always the same, or people don't care about it. Possibly tied to the early troll posts derailing into extremity.

        It's still disappointing *to me* though. Especially (IMHO) when discussing municipal broadband (not specifically in SF, but in general), as *I* think it's a pretty important issue.

        Quite possibly any or all of those things. That was kind of my point.

        Which is why I thought it might be interesting to understand (via the data) the who, what, when, and possibly why of differences in the quantity/quality of comments attached to various types of stories.

        That said, I'm not condemning any particular commenter, even^W especially if they're trolling (if we block/censor them, who decides what is appropriate/inappropriate? Better just to use the moderation system), as they have just as much of a right to say what they want to say (even if it shows them to be assholes) as anyone else.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:35PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 25 2018, @12:35PM (#643426)

    http://tpg.com.au/fttb [tpg.com.au]

    Fibre to the building. Cheaper and better than the NBN

    This can be the outcome from disallowing a monopoly

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