Ryan Sullivan cancelled what he thought was a "random charge for $4.99 per month from HP called 'Instant Ink'". Then his printer refused to print:
It turns out that HP requires its customers to enroll HP Instant Ink eligible printers into one of the Instant Ink plans, and continue paying a monthly subscription in order to be allowed to use the device.
But where's the need to come up with different plans coming from, you may wonder? HP explains: the company charges a fee based on the number of pages a customer prints each month, and the page count is shockingly monitored remotely.
Naturally, the scheme is not advertised as a rather unusual application of DRM, but a way for customers to save time and money. Still, it would seem HP has not exactly gone out of its way to explain all the consequences to those customers.
HP's terms of service also say that these eligible, internet-connected printers can be remotely modified in several ways, including by applying patches, updates, and "changes" – without notifying customers.
Another thing HP can see thanks to the Instant Ink program is the type of documents you print, identifying them by extension as Word, etc., documents, PDFs, or JPEG and other types of images.
Additionally, the HP cartridges have been locked to specific printers for quite a while now.
Earlier on SN:
US Customers Kick Up Class-Action Stink Over Epson's Kyboshing of Third-Party Ink (2019)
Xerox Is No More (2018)
Meg Whitman Resigns (2017)
Supreme Court Lets Consumers Refill Ink Cartridges (2017)
HP to Issue "Optional Firmware Update" Allowing 3rd-Party Ink (2016)
Related Stories
Submitted via IRC for Bytram.
Following a story that we reported a few days ago which covered how the latest software update issued by HP for its printers prevented them from working with other cartridges, HP have responded and promise another update to re-enable other ink cartridges. But HP is still defending its practice of preventing the use of non-HP ink and is making no promises about refraining from future software updates that force customers to use only official ink cartridges.
"We updated a cartridge authentication procedure in select models of HP office inkjet printers to ensure the best consumer experience and protect them from counterfeit and third-party ink cartridges that do not contain an original HP security chip and that infringe on our IP," the company said.
The recent firmware update for HP OfficeJet, OfficeJet Pro, and OfficeJet Pro X printers "included a dynamic security feature that prevented some untested third-party cartridges that use cloned security chips from working, even if they had previously functioned," HP said.
For customers who don't wish to be protected from the ability to buy less expensive ink cartridges, HP said it "will issue an optional firmware update that will remove the dynamic security feature. We expect the update to be ready within two weeks and will provide details here."
While I'm sure that we recognise that HP cannot guarantee the operation of any printer not using their own cartridges, how often are similar techniques used to lock-out fair competition? What are your experiences and views?.
Score one for the little guys. In a precedent-setting decision handed down this morning, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a company's patent rights are forfeited once they sell an item to a consumer under the "first sale" doctrine. This idea was central to Impression Products, Inc. v Lexmark Int'l, Inc. and is a major blow to companies that sell their printers for (relatively) low prices and then recoup any losses on the sale of expensive ink and toner cartridges. [...]
"Extending the patent rights beyond the first sale would clog the channels of commerce, with little benefit from the extra control that the patentees retain," wrote Chief Justice John Roberts. In his opinion, Chief Justice Roberts contended that Lexmark's heavy-handed approach to discouraging cartridge remanufacturers only emboldened them to find new and innovative ways to circumvent the company's defenses.
A patent holder that restricts the reuse or resale of its printer ink cartridges can't invoke patent law against a remanufacturing company that violates the restriction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday.
The court ruled that Lexmark International's patent rights are exhausted with its first sale of the cartridges, despite restrictions it tried to impose.
Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote the opinion (PDF), joined in full by six justices. Justice Neil M. Gorsuch didn't participate in the case.
Additional coverage by Consumerist.
Doesn't the Supreme Court care how many lawyers this will put out of work? Think of the Lawyers! And the effect on commerce for those selling ink at $8,000 a gallon.
"Hewlett Packard Enterprise Co (HPE) said on Tuesday that Meg Whitman was stepping down as chief executive officer, sending its shares down 7.4 percent in trading after the bell.
Whitman engineered the biggest breakup in corporate history during her 6 year tenure at the helm, creating HPE and PC-and-printer business HP Inc from parent Hewlett Packard Co in 2015."
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/11/21/hp-enterprise-ceo-meg-whitman-steps-down.html
The once mighty Xerox corporation, inventor of the photocopier, the graphical user interface, ethernet and the workstation is no more. Today it has been announced that Xerox is to be acquired by Fujifilm, with whom it had the joint venture FujiXerox, for $6.1 bilion.
In recent years, much of Xerox's previous, and quite recent, acquisitions have been sold off including Tektronix in Willsonville, Oregon (acquired for its solid ink technology) and Affiliated Computer Services.
Back in 2011, Xerox entered into a partnership with Indian outsourcing firm HCL, transferring thousands of engineering staff, including most in the UK and mainland Europe.
Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
Epson is facing a class-action suit from disgruntled US punters sick of being told what sort of ink cartridges to put in their machines.
Of course it is a cliché of printers that they send dismal warnings of imminent destruction if owners dare to go with cartridges bought from anywhere but the machine's manufacturer.
But the US case (PDF here) alleges that Epson went further with firmware updates that detected third-party ink in printers and simply disabled them. The suit claims the unofficial cartridges work perfectly well in machines that have not been updated.
It complains that Epson never warned users that installing the firmware would remove their ability to use third-party cartridges.
The case names complainants who own Epson WorkForce WF-3640 All-in-One Printer or an Epson XP-830 Small-in-One® printer.
[...] Epson refused to comment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @11:50PM (4 children)
$4.99 per month! Just cancel after the first month, and re-subscribe when you need a refill!
yeah.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20 2020, @11:57PM (3 children)
Sounds like a Mafia tactic to me. MPAA, RIAA and now introducing the HPAA.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:06AM (2 children)
What we really need is a tool that will remotely disable HP.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:51PM
Hopefully this story goes viral and enough people stop buying HP crap and they go chapter 11.
(Score: 2) by ilsa on Tuesday January 21 2020, @11:28PM
They actually had one, but then they fired him.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by black6host on Tuesday January 21 2020, @12:07AM (1 child)
I've got an old HP 2300L sitting beside me that just won't die. It'll be the last HP printer I use. I'm so tired of getting nickel and dimed each month. There's only so much of me to go around; there ain't no more to take folks. Which was the master plan in the first place, I'm sure.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Ethanol-fueled on Tuesday January 21 2020, @08:22PM
I've had 2 HP color printers and the second one was a nice photo printer but it was gifted to me so I didn't complain...at first.
Until I realized that you have to explicitly tell it that you want greyscale, otherwise, it defaults to using the colors' ink to print greyscale even though there is a separate dedicated black cartridge. Totally wasteful.
Oh yeah, and it wouldn't print at all, not even greyscale, using only the black cartridge unless all cartridges including the colored ones were installed and not empty. In my specific example, I ran out of yellow. No big deal, I had plenty of ink in the dedicated black cartridge and was only printing greyscale Word documents. Nope. You're not printing anything, at all, until you buy another 40-dollar yellow cartridge. And if your magenta cartridge is also empty, you're gonna have to also buy that one.
After consulting the forums and seeing that all the hacks and workarounds no longer worked on my machine, it was at that point that I literally threw the whole fucking thing right into the dumpster and went to a FedEx center and had the 3 greyscale pages printed for like 30 cents. Color pages are like 80 cents/each. And if you need to use one of their computers there to do some last-minute editing, a quick session will run you a couple bucks.
The way I see it, if you're going to be printing fat books of pages on a regular basis and don't want to go to a copy center, you might as well buy a used full-size business printer/copier and definitely not an HP-branded one.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Tuesday January 21 2020, @12:10AM (18 children)
Signing people up for a bullshit service, monitoring remotely, remotely disabling something that should still work fine - each of these should be illegal by themselves. But somehow this is not only allowed, but average people crave this ass raping.
This sort of thing has gone past insane. I don't want to live in this world any more. Please, kill me!
[Congratulations, you have been automatically signed up for HP Instant Death! A low, low charge of $4.99 will be extracted from your rotting ashes every month for all eternity. We will remotly monitor your death to ensure the highest death standards, and monitor the money extraction process. Should this fee go unpaid, you will be brought back to life until you pay up.]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:22AM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Tuesday January 21 2020, @08:25PM
That is okay if you are renting the machine for a reasonable flat fee and a technician comes and refills the ink at no additional charge to you whenever you're running low on ink. And they take it away for you when you are done using it for awhile.
Done right they would be embracing the whole rental mentality, not only the parts they like.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by RS3 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:03AM (7 children)
I see it as an extension of software as a subscription. Slowly but surely they're expanding the monthly fees for everything, now into hardware.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @04:08AM
It's called business innovation, and the MBAs are getting massive bonuses for it.
(Score: 2) by Chocolate on Tuesday January 21 2020, @08:16AM (2 children)
How will Microsoft continue to pay their quality software developers if they don't source new income streams?
Bit-choco-coin anyone?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by RS3 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:48PM (1 child)
You mean how will the world continue to subsidize H1B and offshore workers?
The irony of my statement is that I commented more strongly on this HP ink situation on a certain green site and I got at least 2 accusations of being a "communist".
Yet on same sites are stories about how capitalism taken to extremes, devolves into feudalism (which I've understood to be the case most of my life). I'm anything but a communist. I did poorly in history and political science in school, but the older I get, the more I learn and understand why societies and governments make the laws and rules they do- it's called "big picture thinking".
I had more to write but no time...
(Score: 2) by Chocolate on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:21AM
Atlassian blasted the government for not increasing the immigration cap for IT workers while celebrating the resounding success of their globally distributed agile workforce. Go figure.
Bit-choco-coin anyone?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday January 21 2020, @05:54PM (2 children)
Who would have dreamed such a thing of the HP of old.
How about HP charges your based on the number of calculations you do on your calculator?
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @07:26PM (1 child)
> "Who would have dreamed such a thing of the HP of old."
You're referring to the pre-MBA days, when techs did tech. I guess someone dreamed of it.
> "How about HP charges your based on the number of calculations you do on your calculator?"
Shhhh!! Don't give them ideas! Maybe quick patent that.
To be fair, it is an age-old concept- give away the razor and sell the blades. And printer companies have been doing this for years, with ink advertising often embedded in the printer software and even the Windows drivers.
However, they've crossed into the "you don't own your software, you lease it" territory. Okay, you own the physical printer, but you lease the right to use the software that runs it.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @07:30PM
Adding, it would be awesome if someone made alternate free software/firmware for the printer. I'm sure it would violate some HP TOS / license / whatever, but I'd argue "right to repair".
(Score: 5, Interesting) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:30AM (4 children)
I can see the attraction of having someone else monitor the amount of ink that a printer uses and send me replacements when I need them. In a corporate environment, that's pretty much what you get from the high-end vendors: you lease the device, it reports to them when it's low on toner or a part needs replacing or servicing, and they send a support tech to handle it as required. A low-end version of that service sounds useful if it doesn't collect ludicrous amounts of personal information and the customer knows that that is what they're buying (or, rather, leasing).
My mother 'borrowed' my printer a few years ago and then moved sufficiently far away that it would be cheaper for me to buy a new one than ship it back, so I haven't bothered with a printer for quite a while, but I can see the attraction of this kind of service if you print a moderate amount. Inkjets don't really make financial sense for anyone though: If you print a lot, the per-page costs are too high. If you don't print much, the odds of the ink drying up on the heads and your wasting a lot of the contents of a cartridge are high. There's probably a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, but I have no idea where it is. The last two printers I owned were lasers (mono then colour) and could happily print pages cheaply after standing idle for a month.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 4, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Tuesday January 21 2020, @10:13AM (3 children)
> The amount of detail that they collect (which is probably a GDPR violation).
Probably it was signed off in the ToS. GDPR doesn't prevent you from letting people extract data, but it requires your consent.
(Score: 4, Informative) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:26PM (2 children)
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @05:34PM (1 child)
It would seem fairly easy to argue that knowing how much is printed is required to send ink cartridge refills when they'll be needed.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 21 2020, @06:57PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by Lester on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:58AM (1 child)
4.99 so far. Nobody knows what will be the next charge.
When you pay a blackmail, you only can expect keep paying forever, and bigger amounts each time.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday January 21 2020, @06:36PM
Even if the price remains seemingly reasonable, the blackmail business model encourages others to adopt the same model. Before long there no other model.
This is what happened long ago with ink cartridges. Someone started the razor-blade model, then everyone else followed. Soon lots of super cheap printers with outrageously priced ink. It has to start somewhere. HP is starting a new trend.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday January 21 2020, @03:38PM
Probably my favorite joke in all of Futurama was in that episode where all the robots revolted. Some guy is getting cash from an ATM, the ATM eats his card, so he turns to step into a nearby suicide booth, but it closes its doors in his face.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Bot on Tuesday January 21 2020, @12:10AM (6 children)
- decades ago rms couldn't print so he launched free software.
- now the dystopic scare stories about DRM and IOT becomes real thanks to a printer.
Bravo HP. I better start learning how to drive a makeshift plotter with a raspberry, because that's the future of printing if the IoT keeps IoTing.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:28AM (4 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:44PM (2 children)
That works a lot of the time, but sometimes, you need to print something, e.g. to take the information to a place where you don't have a computer handy or a steady power supply to run said computer even if you did have it, or to have a hard copy of a legal document. And for that, you need a printer. I'd fully support efforts to create some kind of open-source open-design device that people could build at home, and while it's easier said than done it's also the fastest way to get printer companies to start behaving themselves.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @05:36PM (1 child)
Can 3D printers print in 2D? There are open-hardware 3D printers already.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @03:29AM
No, however, if you mounted a pen on the extruder, you could probably get it to write.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday January 21 2020, @06:37PM
Only until they are made illegal.
They infringe someone's patent or other exclusive rights.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by EEMac on Tuesday January 21 2020, @03:06PM
A lot of life seems to be an intelligence test.
Do you think an always-on speaker that shares your information with Google/Amazon/Apple is a good thing? Here's the device for you.
Can you figure out how to pirate movies and TV shows? If not, here's a pile of ads, plus you can pay for multiple streaming services.
Do you think inkjet printing as a service is a good idea? Why yes, we'll keep taking your money, thank you.
Sadly, my mother-in-law would love this. She's smart otherwise, but not at all tech-savvy.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @12:54AM (8 children)
I read this thread on that ghastly green sight, and apprently, the clown agreed to the terms of contract, and now whining and moaning about it.
Nevertheless, the fact that HP, once a renowned and respected label, sunk so low ... just so you all know, it's Hewlett and Packard. Yus, heweletts and packards, sold out your grandpas legacies for a few bucks.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:13AM (2 children)
HP, although they are a bunch of mindless jerks, will not be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
They will, however, be third or fourth against the wall.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:10AM
Pink hairs, Zuckerberg... who's third?
(Score: 5, Funny) by el_oscuro on Tuesday January 21 2020, @04:43AM
Actually, that line is rather long now. The entire "healthcare" industry, Boeing, Facebook, Monsanto, Google, Ajit Pai, just to name a few. That line looks like the Star Wars premier in 1977.
SoylentNews is Bacon! [nueskes.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by driverless on Tuesday January 21 2020, @03:40AM (3 children)
It's also partly the clown's fault. He signed up for it despite the exact thing that happened to him being well- and widely-documented. For example PC Mag [pcmag.com] says about Instant Ink:
Which sounds exactly like what he experienced (it then goes on the cover the different plans and what you get for different prices). He got exactly what he signed up for. It's a shit service that I'd never accept, but if you do accept it like he did then you can't later complain about getting exactly what you asked for.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @08:15AM (2 children)
Where exactly does it say that "your printer will be bricked if you at any time cancel the subscription"?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:04AM
You pay for X pages, can print X pages. You pay 0 pages, you can print 0 pages.
The idiot got exactly what he signed for.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:28AM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 5, Informative) by zocalo on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:10AM
"HP Instant Ink is an ink cartridge replacement service. To participate, enroll your HP Instant Ink eligible printer in an Instant Ink plan."
Yep, it's *optional*. As is buying a printer from HP in the first place, come to that. If you prefer to buy your own ink, you can do just that, and there's a switch to toggle between both ink supply approaches in the printer driver setup as required. So:
Sure, HP is doing some fairly invasive data capture here (although, to be fair, knowing what types of document are being printed and in what volumes would help with working out future ink consumption and ensuring replacement cartridges arrive in a timely manner), but they *are* providing users of eligible printers with a choice, and have done exactly what their Ts&Cs said they would, even if some of the more subtle points may have been buried in the small print. It might not be a ink supply model you'd want to sign up for, but for those with a suitable print output $4.99/month for 50 pages and ink just arriving in your mailbox as needed, could well be a good deal, especially if most of the 50 pages are going to be full colour (10c/page is a pretty good rate for a home printer). Choice is supposed to be good, right?
Nope, I'm entirely with HP on this, and that's a position I haven't thought I'd be taking for a *long* time.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:16AM
I haven't looked at their inferior crap in quite some time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @01:39AM
https://old.reddit.com/r/assholedesign/comments/983e4g/i_cant_use_these_perfectly_good_hp_ink_cartridges/ [reddit.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by anubi on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:14AM (2 children)
If it has to connect to the internet, it will be used to compel your obedience to someone else.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday January 21 2020, @04:00AM
Lesson: you don't own the printer**, it's just the token that was given to you to identify your right to rent the services.
Just make sure it's plugged in in all the sockets it needs. Of course at your expense, how else?
** substitute "printer" with any IoT gizmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:47PM
Also, anything that connects to the Internet will spy on you as much as is physically possible.
After all, your data has value to somebody (the FBI if nobody else) and storage is cheap.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Fnord666 on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:24AM (1 child)
HP Instant Ink is a subscription service that this guy explicitly signed up for at some point. As part of that service, he agreed to let HP monitor the number of pages he printed, etc. When ink gets low, HP will send him a new ink supply contained in cartridges. These cartridges are supplied as part of the subscription service and are merely the vehicle used to transport the ink. They are also the mechanism used to enforce the agreement.
When you cancel the service the printer stops using the ink (i.e. printing) in those cartridges. In fact, as part of the subscription agreement, he was supposed to return the unused ink by returning the cartridges to HP when he cancelled his subscription.
What doesn't seem to be mentioned is that the printer itself is not disabled at all. Mr. Twit is free to go out to Staples and buy, at his own cost, the ink cartridges that his printer uses and it will work just fine.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Tuesday January 21 2020, @02:46AM
Can be quite a bit of work [inkbank.com.au]
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21 2020, @07:21AM (1 child)
I don't print very often. I feel for those that need to print all the time. On those rare occasions when I really need to print, I generally outsource that to Kinko's which got bought by FedEx. Let's see them try to push around FedEx like this. I'll pop the popcorn while the corporate behemoths slug it out. Who knows, maybe some champion in a suit will win one for all of us, but I doubt it. They'll probably just cut a deal.
Proposed real solution? Well, you hear so much about DIY 3-d printers. Can DIY, "open hardware" 2d printing really be that hard? I get that there's some pretty intricate micro-tech in the printing heads, but if Jeri Ellsworth can fab transistors at home, printing heads don't seem too far out of reach. And ink? It's just pigments. It can't be *that* hard, can it?
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday January 21 2020, @09:39AM
It's typically Xerox, not HP, but a lot of big companies have an agreement like this for their printers: you lease the device, someone else is responsible for sending out support techs to replace or service parts and refill the toner. I don't know if Kinko's does this, but it seems quite plausible that they would (they won't want to pay one tech per store, and they're probably too spread out to make financial sense operating their own servicing network).
Or you could just buy a printer. Lots of companies make decent and cheap colour laser printers now. If it breaks out of warranty, you're on your own. If it runs out of toner, you have to buy and install replacements. It's probably cheaper than a lease or lease-buy hybrid scheme, but comes at a cost of increased risk and responsibility. Which you choose is up to you.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday January 21 2020, @05:42PM (2 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday January 21 2020, @06:41PM
With the state of micro controllers and DYI, maybe a movement to build your own. Or use the mechanical parts of existing printers, but scrap all of the electronics in favor of an "open source" type solution.
But the printer manufacturers will find some way to complain about you buying their printer then tearing all the guts out of it.
Sort of reminds me of the iOpener [wikipedia.org]. A cheap Linux computer sold at a loss, but it only worked with their overpriced dial up service. But horrible hackers could wipe it and reload software making it suitable for other porpoises.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 22 2020, @02:24AM
Given how old the tech is, are we that far away from being able to assemble one ourselves?