from the "don't-be-a-jerk"-still-applies dept.
The metaverse has a groping problem already:
Katherine Cross, who researches online harassment at the University of Washington, says that when virtual reality is immersive and real, toxic behavior that occurs in that environment is real as well. "At the end of the day, the nature of virtual-reality spaces is such that it is designed to trick the user into thinking they are physically in a certain space, that their every bodily action is occurring in a 3D environment," she says. "It's part of the reason why emotional reactions can be stronger in that space, and why VR triggers the same internal nervous system and psychological responses."
That was true in the case of the woman who was groped on Horizon Worlds. According to The Verge, her post read: "Sexual harassment is no joke on the regular internet, but being in VR adds another layer that makes the event more intense. Not only was I groped last night, but there were other people there who supported this behavior which made me feel isolated in the Plaza [the virtual environment's central gathering space]."
Sexual assault and harassment in virtual worlds is not new, nor is it realistic to expect a world in which these issues will completely disappear. So long as there are people who will hide behind their computer screens to evade moral responsibility, they will continue to occur.
The real problem, perhaps, has to do with the perception that when you play a game or participate in a virtual world, there's what Stanton describes as a "contract between developer and player." "As a player, I'm agreeing to being able to do what I want in the developer's world according to their rules," he says. "But as soon as that contract is broken and I'm not feeling comfortable anymore, the obligation of the company is to return the player to wherever they want to be and back to being comfortable."
The question is: Whose responsibility is it to make sure users are comfortable? Meta, for example, says it gives users access to tools to keep themselves safe, effectively shifting the onus onto them.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @11:22AM (4 children)
The solution is simple. Take a cue from our British editors, no one wants to grope slimey scales.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Friday December 17 2021, @03:18PM (1 child)
The solution is simpler: don't use shite like Meta-Face, etc.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Saturday December 18 2021, @08:59AM
Trolls & incels would attempt the exact same garbage behavior even if the VR service was being run by a pro-privacy FOSS non-profit, and chances are that an org like that would either lack the resources to do jack about it, and/or wouldn't be terribly motivated to try.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @05:25PM (1 child)
What is wrong with people now days?
Imagine if cave men thought they were allowed to grope anyone they wanted?
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:29PM
(Score: 3, Funny) by looorg on Friday December 17 2021, @11:50AM (22 children)
Metagroping? What is that? Please show us on this 3d model where your sprites collided ... Perhaps they should just not have avatar on avatar collision so everyone are like ghost towards each other, new form of ghosting?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @11:52AM (13 children)
I guess it's a particularly obnoxious form of griefing. And if someone has had real world issues going on, it can take on a lot more significance.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @11:59AM (9 children)
This post makes me uncomfortable. I demand that soylentnews make me comfortable.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @01:23PM (8 children)
I agree with the sentiment in the general case. I think the difference follows from friendface's business model.
Take mincecraft as an example:-
* Mojang provide a UI, and charge for the binaries for said UI. This is their main income stream.
* on some servers, e.g. those aimed at kiddies, the server admins will have fairly strict policies surrounding griefing and if you break the policies (and get caught) you get the banhammer.
* on other servers griefing is okay, it is part of the game.
You wouldn't expect Mojang (or M$ as it now is) to take responsibility for people griefing on any server unless Mojang are the server admins.
* On SN griefing is explicitly allowed in almost all circumstances - the exception being spam mod (and that is another discussion).
Now consider friendface. They are a monolithic entity and explicitly are pedalling bundled server access with the UI. The "product" is the server and associated advertising revenue.
Almost certainly FF will not run servers where griefing, particularly sexual harassment, is considered okay. So then they need to bake into the UI some system to protect users against sexual harassment/griefing.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @01:30PM
Wholly agree. I think the issue is that this guy is mad at all developers, but their real complaint ought to be directed to the authorities of whatever community he's engaging with. You don't sue Apache for powering websites run by assholes, right?
Granted, in this case, they happen to be the same thing, blaming developers as a whole is also incorrect and unfair. Frequently we have zero control over that sort of thing.
Now, he should be able to host or join a community that meets his morals and ethical expectations, and there should be ways for them to enforce that internally. Just stop blaming the wrong people!
(To use the nuclear example, it'd be like meaning to call Netanyahu a complete piece of shit, but you actually say, "but the Jews!". Don't do that. Blame the right asshole(s).)
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 17 2021, @02:51PM (4 children)
Seems like the pandemic has already shown us the way: make the UI enforce 2 meter social distancing.
Then we just have to deal with flashers and obscene gestures, but groping should be pretty much impossible.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @04:26PM (2 children)
Well, there are people who see groping everywhere, even at 2m distance.
My suggestion: use a non-gropable avatar.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:46PM (1 child)
I suggest a Klein bottle [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Monday December 20 2021, @02:00AM
Did you check out the curves on that Klein bottle though? Damn!
Never forget Rule 34 [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by jasassin on Friday December 17 2021, @11:04PM
Booger : What's mopery?
Sergeant : Mopery is exposing yourself to a blind person.
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @03:08PM (1 child)
"Almost certainly FF will not run servers where griefing, particularly sexual harassment, is considered okay."
Oh, my sweet summer child.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @04:47PM
Thanks.
"Almost certainly FF will not run servers where griefing, particularly sexual harassment, is allowed in the terms of the EULA."
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 17 2021, @02:49PM
I guess it's all about expectations.
There are plenty of virtual worlds people go into to kill and be killed by other avatars driven by very real people.
In some of those, people aren't upset about being shot, knifed, blown up, thrown off tall or not so tall buildings, run over, kicked into shredder or compactor machines, being tied up and waterboarded, but then they take exception to being teabagged. Others like it and beg for more.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Saturday December 18 2021, @01:36AM (1 child)
Maybe people should avoid situations where they are likely to experience adverse reactions, rather than expecting the rest of society to take responsibility. The people with food allergies, diabetes, and religious dietary restrictions seem to handle it pretty well.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Saturday December 18 2021, @12:54PM
> avoid situations where they are likely to experience adverse reactions
Like sharing your holiday photos and nattering to your friends?
This is Facebook, don't forget.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @03:21PM
show us on the 3d rendered real doll[tm] where the bad avatar touched you. take it slow. make it hot.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:02PM (6 children)
I'll mod funny.
However I think this is going somewhere that we might not want to go.
Go back to Usenet. BBSes. The green site in the 90s. Facebook. Twitter. Etc.
What we see is that (some) people will engage in outrageous behavior online that they refrain from in real life. They can manage to maintain a certain degree of self control in real life.
Now as time passes, the worst most basest impulses they engage in online begin to creep into their real life. End result: Karens. Incels. People doing outrageous things in real life that were largely unheard of before the 1990s. Sure there were occasionally entitled people who thought the rules didn't apply to them. But not in the numbers we see today.
Now imagine the kind of bad behaviors that VR may normalize into real life.
If one is not rich or powerful, why would they think they are entitled to grope someone or sniff their hair when such behavior may be unwanted.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:55PM (2 children)
I want to agree with your general point, but introspection tells me it's only half true. Even as an AC, I'm a nicer person on the internet than in real life, because we're in public and people are watching.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @08:10PM (1 child)
You may be the exception. I seem to perceive ACs as far worse than those with fake names.
Nothing like being an AC to just toss in a molotov cocktail every chance they get.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @10:15PM
Not all AC's are like that.
(but that's just the sort of thing an AC would say)
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Friday December 17 2021, @07:49PM (1 child)
Obvious counter argument:
Have you seen Second Life ?
Have you seen how much of it manifests back in first life?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @08:08PM
Have not seen it. I did hear of it years ago.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday December 18 2021, @06:08AM
I'd add to this that in real life bad behavior is usually associated with some form of physical advantage while online it's more typical that weak in real life do bad things. Therefore I expect that in VR former victims will become perpetrators.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @12:07PM (21 children)
The problem is that people are taught that fiction and reality are the same thing and they get confused. Today too many believe that words are violent and harmful and touching people in a video game is the same as in real life, truthfully the only hospital a person should be sent to if they are hurt by words and virtual touching is a mental hospital, but thanks to indoctrination there isn't enough vacancy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @12:59PM (1 child)
> ...people are taught that fiction and reality are the same thing...
...people need to be taught that friction and reality are the same thing...
Friction is the stuff of life, without it we couldn't walk around, or get any stimulation from sex. Who started this fiction that there is such a thing as a life without friction? Can we blame that on physics where elementary systems are modeled as "frictionless"?
(Score: 3, Funny) by weilawei on Friday December 17 2021, @01:03PM
(Score: 3, Insightful) by choose another one on Friday December 17 2021, @01:49PM (1 child)
Yeah but no.
The real problem is that people are taught that they have a fundamental right to be protected in all forms (physical, written, audio, visual, virtual) from things that are "fake" "false" or "wrong", where that equates to "anything they don't agree with". Further, in multi-user environments of all forms, defining acceptable behaviour cannot be the joint responsibility of the users because that would mean some form of negotiation with people who are wrong which would require giving them a platform which you can't do, plus the users who are wrong don't have any money. So it becomes the responsibility of the environment provider to make other people behave in a way that offends nobody who thinks the right way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @01:52PM
(Score: -1, Troll) by crafoo on Friday December 17 2021, @02:46PM (14 children)
No, people do not believe this. Women SAY this because it gets them what they want and feeds a useful narrative.
If anything, this early response to "The Metaverse" is that it needs to be segregated. There are areas that are not going to be safe for women and they should be made to stay out.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @03:36PM (6 children)
Tell me you want to rape women without any consequences for yourself without saying you want to rape women without any consequences for yourself.
(Score: 2) by HammeredGlass on Friday December 17 2021, @04:10PM (5 children)
How many women exist in the metaverse? Zero.
This isn't the old trope that there are no girls ON the internet. This is the fact there are no people IN the internet.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @05:05PM (3 children)
Behind every nym, and even some ACs, is an actual human being. Similarly, there are humans behind everyone you meat in a VR.
If there are going to be VR spaces where incels can treat women badly, then maybe these incel spaces should have bots offering favors in exchange for compensation. Clearly mark the bots from the real humans.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by HammeredGlass on Saturday December 18 2021, @03:51AM (2 children)
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @05:43AM (1 child)
I thought your type liked to keep 'em in the kitchen, barefoot?
(Score: 2) by HammeredGlass on Saturday December 18 2021, @07:16PM
*and pregnant.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @10:29PM
You mean everyone on the internet isn't a dog‽
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday December 17 2021, @05:17PM (6 children)
Hoooooooly *shit,* really? Really? You're really saying--my God.
I hope like Hell you're permanently single and not dating. I feel so sorry for any woman who's ever been inflicted with your presence and that includes your mother.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Friday December 17 2021, @06:12PM
The same goes for whoever the fuck modded that Insightful ffs.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @10:42PM (2 children)
To the self-appointed Representative of All Women: Nobody cares what you think of male-female relations. You literally don't know what you are talking about on the subject.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @09:02PM
*yawn*
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday December 23 2021, @01:44AM
And the more I see of the hetero mating game the more I thank my lucky stars this is the case.
The fact that well over 98% of women have some natural attraction to men, given how you've historically treated us, is the strongest possible proof that we can't choose our sexual orientation. Because if we could? There would not be one single straight girl left in the entire human race.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Troll) by darkfeline on Saturday December 18 2021, @01:41AM (1 child)
Your ad hominem attack is very convincing and I would like to unsubscribe to your newsletter.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday December 23 2021, @01:55AM
Sure, it's easy: leave and never come back again. Then you won't have to read one single post of mine ever again. "Freeze peach" cuts both ways, snowflake.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @03:01PM
> Today too many believe that words are violent and harmful and touching people in a video game is the same as in real life,
Well, it isn't a very nice thing to happen if not expected or invited. And if someone has been sexually assaulted/equivalent in real life (as many have), it is downright horrid.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:07PM
We have a lot of people today who cannot distinguish fiction and reality. They don't think they are confused.
* secret jewish space lasers starting california wild fires
* dead dictators rigging voting machines
* 5G causes covid
* the earth is flat
I could go on.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 5, Touché) by GlennC on Friday December 17 2021, @12:46PM (2 children)
I'm surprised it took this long!
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @05:09PM (1 child)
People want to do, or think they are entitled to do, things in a VR that they would never[1] be allowed to do in real life.
[1]unless you are rich and/or powerful, or a stable genius
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2) by https on Friday December 17 2021, @05:22PM
Not "people," but a very specific subset of people. Me and Biden are both people, but we are not the same - and I would be folding money he'd be fucking offended if anyone seriously tried to make a comparison.
Offended and laughing about it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @12:46PM (2 children)
Being PK'ed is not the same thing as beging murdered/mugged
In the same vein this is not the same as being groped
And the solution is the same:
- like you have pk mode and non-pk modes
- just have 'touching others is possible' and 'touching others is not possible' modes
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday December 17 2021, @03:15PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:46PM
DON"T YOU DARE GIVE THEM IDEAS!!!!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by weilawei on Friday December 17 2021, @12:56PM (5 children)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @01:29PM (2 children)
I think you are getting "developer" and "server admin" confused.
If I go on a server run by someone like friendface, typically there are a bunch of EULA which will say words to the effect of "don't be a pillock". If others act like a pillock, I then have a reasonable expectation that the server admins will ban them (with some usual report/review/appeal process). As I posted elsewhere, this is a typical thing done by e.g. Mincecraft server admins.
friendface want to run servers, but don't want to do the sysadmin stuff because it hits their $$$. In 3D it is a particularly nasty thing that can be abused in many nasty ways.
(Score: 2) by weilawei on Friday December 17 2021, @01:35PM (1 child)
I think we agree, but I think it's them that have confused developers and server admins. That's kind of my point.
When in reality, the developer frequently has no control. I agree with you that it's the admins of servers that are responsible for making those agreements--just not developers.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Friday December 17 2021, @02:28PM
Quite right.
The only other point to make is that FriendFace will (I expect, if it goes like their other softwares) take on role as both developer and server admin - and then declaim/underfund responsibility for the server admin side of things.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Friday December 17 2021, @03:24PM
Yup, that paragraph caused the bullshit sirens to wail very loudly.
If you "enter a contract" (you don't) to roam around a world with a set of rules, then you have agreed to those rules. If you cannot imagine those rules being abused, then maybe you're the stupid one. Perhaps a virtugrope might be just the thing needed to educate you and slap you out of the naive fantasy land that you live in. Or join a mechanistically simpler virtual world with no capabilities for the things you're offended by.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday December 17 2021, @05:38PM
There's also the problem of the contract's expectations being somewhat asymmetric [wikipedia.org] between user and developer (or server admin, per responses below). That may incorporate differences between the explicit written contract and an implicit social one, though.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Mojibake Tengu on Friday December 17 2021, @01:19PM (7 children)
Hypnosis.
Now, you have a really big problem coming.
Rust programming language offends both my Intelligence and my Spirit.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @01:48PM
I think that problem is here already. Now, I don't have kids, or any "real" social media accounts, so I was confused at work when my co-workers were talking about keeping their kids home from school today. I asked why, and they said that on Tik-Tok there was some threat of mass school shootings all across the US.
Now, I don't have an answer for this one, and I don't think there is/necessarily should be an answer, but I do have an observation: larger scale social networks correlate more strongly with instability than smaller sized communities. (Where [in]stability is just the frequency and magnitude of deviations from the existing state, like sudden mass shootings in otherwise normal schools.)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @01:52PM (5 children)
Look closely at the screen.
Focus on the spinning images.
Relax and let all the tension drain out of you.
Focus on the spinning images.
You have no big problems coming.
Mr Zuckerberg is a wonderful person.
FaceBook is here to help you.
All of this is just nonsense that you can ignore,
When I snap my fingers you will wake up refreshed and remember none of this.
Snap.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Mojibake Tengu on Friday December 17 2021, @02:31PM (4 children)
You joke, but pattern interrupt induction and other similar techniques work in a VR. Together with relevant haptics they work almost perfectly.
See Anthony Galie on YouTube for classic demonstrations in real world. Virtuality will be no different to that.
Rust programming language offends both my Intelligence and my Spirit.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 17 2021, @02:53PM (2 children)
Matrix step 1: induce the population while they are in VR.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Mojibake Tengu on Friday December 17 2021, @03:17PM (1 child)
Old school Ziegarnick effect is what adds more levels to that. Those interrupts can be stored in brain and cultivated separately:
https://maxtrance.com/zeigarnik-effect/ [maxtrance.com]
Simple results, such as induced amnesia is already a perfect political tool of the day. Decades of grinding improvements on TV technology already, the mechanics is well brushed.
On socnets, that works rather weakly because the media is static and the feedback is weak. That's why conversion of Facebook to VR technology was a logical next step and not a random business decision.
Rust programming language offends both my Intelligence and my Spirit.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 17 2021, @06:14PM
VR has been incredibly slow to take off... we were playing with headsets as potential products in 2015, and still are no closer to actually incorporating them in a product. Maybe something like a Google Glass will happen in our products, some day.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @11:34PM
You are vastly overstating the power of hypnosis on people who aren't expecting to be hypnotized. To get that instance hypnotized effect you see in most videos you either need to have the target train a significant amount of time or they need to be under significant social pressure to play along.
VR is also different from real world due to lag. Hypnotists don't do instant inductions over video chat.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @02:14PM (5 children)
It was good fun though... ;)
p.s. I did a fair bit of killing too.
p.p.s. so when are the cops coming to arrest me for murder? I mean according to Ms. Cross it's practically the same thing right?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:32PM (4 children)
As soon as you (or someone who is less of a stable genius) brings this behavior out into the real world. Maybe without realizing it. Maybe just because such behavior now seems "normal".
Example: how did the phenomena of "swatting" become a real thing? Was swatting associated with video games? How could anyone not think this was a very bad and dangerous idea? Why? Because nothing online has real consequences. What could possibly go wrong? It's all just for fun! LOL Ha Ha
YouTube video disclaimer: Don't do this dangerous experiment at home! (do it at your friend's house instead)
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @07:49PM (3 children)
Swatting is only dangerous and "a thing" because your cops are bad:
https://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504718239/military-trained-police-may-be-slower-to-shoot-but-that-got-this-vet-fired [npr.org]
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836 [go.com]
You're doing things badly wrong when your cops are more trigger happy than a US soldier. It's not like US soldiers are famous for their restraint compared to soldiers of other NATO countries.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160706195805/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1490058/Trigger-happy-US-troops-will-keep-us-in-Iraq-for-years.html [archive.org]
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jun/05/broadcasting.Iraqandthemedia [theguardian.com]
Go try "swatting" in some civilized country with "proper" cops. Nobody will die. I think even in many third world countries nobody will die from a swatting.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @08:13PM
You have a point. But it does not excuse swatting.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @08:15PM (1 child)
You have a point, but I will re-assert what I said.
Basically the phenomena seems connected with video games and outrageous online behavior that leaks into real life by people who may not be a fully mature adult yet.
They may be in an adult body, but they really don't understand reality, or consequences, or have any ability to look forward at potential bad results, or have any responsibility for their own actions.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @03:05AM
This "leaks into real life" is crap and it always has been.
Bugs Bunny cartoons cause violence!
Video games cause violence!
Explicit lyrics cause violence and Satan worship!
Dungeons and Dragons causes violence and Satan worship!
Not only is it not a causal link, it PREVENTS real life problems, it doesn't cause them. How's that Satanic Panic going?
One of the things the purveyors of moral panics always want to sell is that their pet causes are equivalent to the worst possible crimes. But they aren't. Someone griefing in a video game is someone who is NOT out committing crimes in the real world. So report them, let them get their ban, and maybe they'll learn something.
If someone can't tell the difference between sexual assault and griefing, they are the one that has trouble distinguishing fiction from reality. The people doing the griefing? They know exactly what they're doing.
Focus on real problems.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Gaaark on Friday December 17 2021, @03:24PM (20 children)
She got groped and made to feel uncomfortable. Is she still using it?
Do something stupid, feel stupid using. Keep using it.
And we are the most intelligent species on Earth....................Dog help us.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @05:16PM (19 children)
Why is the default assumption that it is okay to virtually grope someone in VR when it is not okay in the real world? And then blame the victim for thinking they are equally entitled to use the VR without being virtually victimized.
There seems to be a trend here that (certain) people / incels have an expectation that they can behave in VR in ways that would never be tolerated in real life.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Friday December 17 2021, @06:03PM (1 child)
Sorry, what i was trying to imply was "Everyone using Facebook, Microsoft products, etc etc, keep getting fecked over and over and keep using the products. I was wondering if she was still using it and still complaining about it instead of just either saying "enough is enough i'm gone", or "I'll continue to be a possible victim even though i have the option of not using it and not being a victim".
Policing it would be good, but sending a message by quitting it would be better. But no: people continue to get fecked and continue to complain about it.
What i was trying to imply was "We should be smarter than this and we're not."
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:19PM
Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.
Unfortunately, there is a certain amount of benefit (real or perceived) that comes from using the television to watch trash, or the internet with Facebook, or VR, or God Forbid -- even use of Microsoft products (omg!).
Maybe they feel like Microsoft or Facebook will change their ways. They say things like "but he's never beat me up enough to go to the hospital", or "but Microsoft cares about me so much and doesn't want to lose me", or "He can't help it -- he was abused back when he was MS-DOS 1.0 and had no hierarchical file system. (his sub directories hadn't descended yet)"
So the victims keep going back for more abuse. Others on Facebook, or now on the VR are happy to abuse them while telling themselves "it's all virtual", "there's no harm". The harm is that those people may eventually do those things in real life.
Why do we have so many mass shootings today compared to before the 1990s?
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:21PM (4 children)
Why is the intersection of geometric numerical calculations considered groping? What victim?
I see only math here, and butthurt humans unable to discern reality from a deliberate, constructed mathematical fiction.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:36PM (3 children)
Different question. Why is outrageous online behavior considered okay (by some) and that nothing they do online has any real world consequences and can be justified by saying that it was online and not real.
There is a human being behind that other avatar.
The next thing you know, VRs will allow ACs.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:55PM (1 child)
So, make some things called RULES and enforce them with things called PUNISHMENTS.
It's a fake world which allows total surveillance. These things are not complicated. Maybe they should have things called FEES to pay for things called POLICE to enforce said rules? I don't know, but generally nothing is for free.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:59PM
But some people feel that rules don't apply to them. Because they are special.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @07:15PM
Did you miss VRML, ActiveWorlds, etc.? Functionally anonymous at the time (and probably still). It appears that ActiveWorlds still exists, after 26 years.
(Score: 3, Touché) by choose another one on Friday December 17 2021, @06:33PM (5 children)
Umm, maybe because it's not the real world?
Why is the default assumption in VR that it is OK to stick an axe through someone's head? Answer: Because it's not the real world.
What are the terms of engagement in Horizon Worlds? Seems pretty clear:
Sounds like anything is fair game for others on your content (which includes the pixels in your avatar), but wait, there's also a "Conduct in VR" policy [oculus.com] which basically says don't do anything anyone else might find offensive (no first amendment in VR...), except it is just a policy and the maximum penalty is repeated offenders might get their account disabled.
So, if you don't agree that the maximum penalty for repeated egregious "sexual harassment" in VR is maybe suspension of account, then don't use that VR.
Similarly if you don't agree with shooting people in the head in VR, don't play shooting-people-in-the-head games in VR.
Seems pretty simple.
If people want "safe space" VR where no one is allowed to offend anyone else in any way, then there is a market for it and it will come.
On the other hand, if people want a VR where anything goes, then there is a market for that and it will come.
Or maybe the market will decide on a VR where anything goes but defined areas enforce their own rules, if you want to be "safe" stay in "safe" areas, if you don't, don't - much the same way as one might choose which bars or clubs to go to in the real world (or, of course, see Second Life for non-VR prior art).
(Score: 2, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @06:37PM (4 children)
What you want is a safe space. For incels.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @07:42PM (3 children)
(Score: 1, Troll) by DannyB on Friday December 17 2021, @08:17PM (2 children)
Please forgive me for not being tolerant of unwanted groping of people in real life. Or online.
If you find someone who wants you to grope them online or in real life, I have no problem.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @08:07AM (1 child)
I'm not going to forgive you for conflating two things, and then being mad about something that is literally impossible (to physically grope another conscious being in a virtual simulation).
You LITERALLY can't touch them. You have serious issues with thinking fantasy is real.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @09:08PM
It is real dumdum. It may not have a physical effect on their body, but the harassment is still there. You think the problem women have with sexual harassment is purely the "my boobs and ass got touched" or more with the intention behind the touching? By your logic nurses that rape coma victims are doing nothing wrong since the person doesn't even perceive what is happening. Maybe you should step out of your own libertarian fantasies where the 1st Amendment makes you think you can say whatever you want and no one should complain or kick you out. Would you say you are pro or anti-vaxx? Just curious.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:50PM
There you go, failing to separate the real world and the game world...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @10:37PM (1 child)
If you can't behave in VR in ways that you can't in real life, why the hell would anyone ever use VR?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 20 2021, @04:50PM
The question isn't whether you can. The question is: why is this considered acceptable?
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 18 2021, @06:19PM (1 child)
The real question is how sexy did she make her avatar. Tease.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday December 20 2021, @04:51PM
That sounds consensual.
Why is it so difficult to break a heroine addiction?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 20 2021, @04:04PM
Have you seen the horror that is Call of Duty, Multiplayer?
For the past decade or so, parents have said it's okay for the kids to play COD and to spew forth such vitriol that it's unsettling. Yet, now a decade or more on and those "kids" are now adults and you expect them to be civilized human beings?
Violent video games aren't nearly so much the issue. As opposed to the fact that parents don't parent.
Also, seriously, Groping in a VR game could definitely be Harassment. What it is not, is Assault. Please note "T-Bagging" your enemies corpse is a thing in Multiplayer FPS games such as Call of Duty. COD is possibly single-handedly responsible for some of the worst behavior you see in kids. Not due to the "Violence" aspect, but due to the Social aspect of the game. Environment has a lot to do with the development of your child. That child will grow up and be an adult. That adult will have been shaped by their childhood.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 5, Insightful) by choose another one on Friday December 17 2021, @03:41PM (3 children)
Just noticed something in TFA / TFS (my bold):
So, taken together that means (some) users think that the service provider / admin / developer has an obligation to detect when they are "not feeling comfortable" and act as a result. The user is not to be required to take any action beyond not feeling comfortable, and stuff is expected to happen.
Holy crap, can anyone else see where this goes? The only way for the "company" to do this is to actually tap into your feelings with the VR kit, that should scare people - but they are begging for it.
Next step is the board meeting:
Finance: bad month last month guys, user time rental income down all over the place, what gives?
Technical: it's the now-legally-mandatory feeling-uncomfortable disconnect, doesn't matter which user we disconnect - the uncomfortable or the making-uncomfortable - it loses us rental time, if they keep getting disconned they go elsewhere
Finance: Sooo... what are we going to do, tell me you have a plan, I have quarterly shareholder meeting in five days?
Technical: well we could reverse the feedback on the discomfort-detector neuro hookup, so users would kinda be comfortable all the time, but...
Finance: Legal - where to we stand on that?
Legal: Hmm, I think clause 451b of the user contract would cover us, but we can add something to make it totally watertight and roll it out in the weekly click-through update...
Finance: Do it. Next item on the agenda?
And just like that, the users are all going to be nice and "comfortable" in VR, all the time, whatever is going on. Win for everyone, no?
Be really careful what you wish for
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @06:23PM
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 17 2021, @07:01PM (1 child)
It's a virtual world. Every single human player in that world has a "beam me up, Scotty" button, it's called the power switch. The interface could certainly formalize this, and also selectively block other players from interaction - if that's what they want to do, but certainly every player of every computer game in the history of computer games has the rage-quit option. It's not like you're Robin Williams in Jumanji.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 17 2021, @07:45PM
Alt-F4?