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posted by janrinok on Sunday January 16, @10:21AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the By-the-inch,-it's-a-cinch-but-a-mile-takes-a-while dept.

We've previously discussed ( https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=21/12/11/1847236 ) how it becomes impossible to reverse the polarization of a community once their differences become too great, and how that plays out both here at SN and in the wider world. Science Blog has a piece ( https://scienceblog.com/527745/computer-model-seeks-to-explain-the-spread-of-misinformation-and-suggest-counter-measures/ ) about a PLOS paper titled "Cognitive cascades: How to model (and potentially counter) the spread of fake news" ( https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0261811 ) which uses an interesting computer model to explore how this actually happens.

The model demonstrated that if the new information is too much at odds with a person's existing belief, it will be ignored. Furthermore, if that belief is connected with the person's identity, their current belief will be strengthened as a defense against cognitive dissonance. Interestingly, though, a succession of new information that gradually nudge the person to adjust their beliefs can, over time, cause the person to adopt a belief that is very different from the one they started with. This sounds like how psy-ops manipulate targets to accept extreme views.

What was the gradual change of ideas that have led national political parties to be ever more different from one another, and who fed them those messages?


Original Submission

Related Stories

Politics: Tearing the "Fabric" of Political or Social Cohesion 332 comments

[ED NOTE: Editors discussed whether we should even run this story. I decided to take a chance. BUT, it's up to the community how this goes. Feel free to downmod comments that attack the *commenter* rather than *add* something to the discussion.--martyb]

Growing extremism can and has turned almost anything into a political struggle in which people pay diminishing attention to the topics and more to the 'tribal' group that they may be associated with. We've seen the effects on the functioning on the US congress, as well as in how laws on various topics have been playing out lately.

But the idea that without a center, things fall apart, may be more real than we thought, as this article at ScienceBlog about a Cornell study describes: https://scienceblog.com/527200/tipping-point-makes-partisan-polarization-irreversible/

It seems that up to a point, it is possible to reverse the polarization. Beyond that tipping point, it cannot. From what I've seen, the US is probably in the vicinity of that tipping point. The pattern described here sounds an awful lot like the period-doubling path to chaos, a mathematical construct in which a function that has a single stable state in one range of numbers starts developing two stable states, and then four, until stability is lost and the set devolves into chaos. If this reflection has any validity in the political or social realms, then we should also have seen the same pattern play out within discussions that turn to chaos.

Is there predictive power in this observation by the researchers at Cornell? If so, can anything be done to head it off, or are we all doomed to watch it play out?

Journal Reference:
Michael W. Macy, Manqing Ma, Daniel R. Tabin, et al. Polarization and tipping points [$], Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.2102144118)


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:30AM (24 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:30AM (#1213093)

    Right now there is zero filter between state/corporate level propaganda and the barely literate mouthbreathing Trump voters. Like weeds and adverts the goal is to grab attention before flaming out due to lack of substance. That's where we are - the world is being innoculated to propaganda by mass exposure. Yes, we dweebs are probably 5 years ahead of the lumped mass of humanity and disable ads so that's why the rest of them look so retarted to us.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:40PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:40PM (#1213106)

      baby steps psy-ops is entirely indisernable from marketing. no doubt the troll mod here is entrely for the cancelled name calling in the first sentence. otherwise a very relevant point made.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:27PM (4 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:27PM (#1213184)

      Trump was controlled opposition installed by the same enemies of the nation that control the Shabbos Goy husk puppet Biden.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:06PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:06PM (#1213201)

        Oy oy, if it's not the Russians, it's the J*ws. Or the Muslims. Or Mexicans, Chinks, liberals, Satanists, sheeple, angry blacks, the list of imaginary enemies is endless.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by hendrikboom on Monday January 17, @01:20AM

          by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @01:20AM (#1213290) Homepage Journal

          "We have met the enemy and he is us."

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @08:48PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @08:48PM (#1213468)

          It's funny how when Negroids commit violent crimes against everyone else they are called "angry", as if their crimes are justified somehow. You're just brainwashed by the Jew, dumb slave.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 19, @02:37AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 19, @02:37AM (#1213754)

            Your obsession with black and jewish people indicates that you have a tiny dick. Nothing wrong with that, until you let your insecurities get the best of you and start being a racist little nazi lover that targets groups known for their larger penises. So many problems in the world because some pathetic dipshits can't get over their own issues.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday January 16, @08:44PM (16 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Sunday January 16, @08:44PM (#1213243) Journal

      Right now there is zero filter between state/corporate level propaganda and the barely literate mouthbreathing Trump voters.

      I am a Trump voter. I voted for him as a change agent. It worked. His first act in office was to kill the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a sweeping trade agreement so sweeping and powerful and secret that not even members of Congress were allowed to know what was in it before being asked to vote on it. That saved manufacturing in America, and the middle class with it. I was happy with that, because it was the first and only significant campaign promise in my lifetime that a president has carried through on. So I voted for him a second time.

      Do I strike you as a barely literate mouthbreather?

      As far as corporate/state propaganda go, that's 100% in the same direction, and that direction almost completely goes against your "Trump" voters. Corporations and government are championing BLM, cancel culture, transgender rights (despite transgenders being a vanishingly small hundredth of a percent of the world population), and ever other plank in the Woke platform. So, yes, there is massive misinformation going on right now and it's not Trump voters are doing it, because they control none of the levers of information promulgation in the world; government, corporations, the media, Hollywood, and even social media titans are doing everything in lockstep they can to silence and censor wrongthink.

      It's a shame the rest of your post, which had some merit, was lost because you led with attacks. I will submit for your consideration that doing what you did is counterproductive to countering discursive fragmentation, because you can see how I responded in kind, can't you?

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @09:57PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @09:57PM (#1213259)

        > Do I strike you as a barely literate mouthbreather?

        In this case yes. My reference (which may be flawed?) is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership [wikipedia.org]

        Per that Wiki page the TPP included a number of countries,but not China. Since China is where the vast majority of USA manufacturing went (via the purchasing department at Walmart, Amazon etc), your claim that dumping the TPP:
        > That saved manufacturing in America, and the middle class with it.
        ...looks pretty idiotic to me.

        Canada, Japan and Mexico were the big established manufacturing countries in the TPP and there are/were already other trade agreements with them. Singapore & Vietnam are a couple of up-and-comers, not sure if we had any prior agreements with them, but I've seen plenty of goods from both so they must have been taking some business away from China?

        Why not have free trade among our friends and do a little bit to try and control the 800 pound panda (China) in the room?

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by HammeredGlass on Monday January 17, @01:13AM

          by HammeredGlass (12241) on Monday January 17, @01:13AM (#1213288)

          Robert Lighthizer's efforts were geared towards eliminating the need for China. It didn't matter that China wasn't included in the TPP. And you forgot about South Korea and the UK. The three you mentioned and the two you forgot was all the U.S. needed as they represented a majority of the American trade portfolio. The U.S. became a net exporter of all energy commodities 3 years ago and it set us up for controlling the world. Steel, aluminum, and automobiles, were not included anywhere in the TPP, as they were reserved as leveraging tools during the trade negotiations on a per country basis. The other great action of these negotiations that did involve China is the secondary currency market where the U.S. Dollar is used as a conversion transfer tool from corporations and countries for 95% of the world. Obama set it up during the Iran deal to use that market to sanction corporations from providing Iran with banned goods. The Trump administration took that tool and started to use against errant countries like China. The previous administration was set to use that tool to begin to take China out of the global market for it's many sins against the world, not the least of which were currency manipulation and copyright/IP theft.

          Then covid fucked all those done deals in the nose.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:55PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:55PM (#1213269)

        Took you long enough to admit it, good to know you're a liar with little backbone to stand behind your own choices. Now, did you vote for him 2x or just the first time?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:37PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:37PM (#1213279)

          > Now, did you vote for him 2x or just the first time?

          Answered in Phoenix's original post:
          > > So I voted for him a second time.

          He doubled down, I don't know anyone else that did that.

          Watching Trump on Howard Stern's show, many years ago, told me everything I needed to know about Trump. He's out for himself and no one else. With the possible exception of his kids(?), although I'm not sure about that. I had no respect for him then, and nothing changed since then except more damning details.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by aristarchus on Sunday January 16, @11:01PM (10 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday January 16, @11:01PM (#1213271) Journal

        Do I strike you as a barely literate mouthbreather?

        I, as well, vote "yes". It's a shame, Phoenix, you used to be a rational person. Now you are just a divisive old fart.

        --
        #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @12:33AM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @12:33AM (#1213284)

          But As A rEaL LiBeRaL his viewpoint is invaluable!!/s

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by aristarchus on Monday January 17, @02:12AM (1 child)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday January 17, @02:12AM (#1213301) Journal

            Are you suggesting that Phoenix666 is actually hemo? I thought sockpuppetry was forbidden!

            --
            #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @10:49AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @10:49AM (#1213368)

              Obviously not. You're still here after all.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:14AM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:14AM (#1213302)

          It's a shame, aristarchus, you used to be a rational person. Now you are just a divisive fuckwit.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:31AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:31AM (#1213307)

            He has been doing the same song and dance for years. Best to ignore him.

          • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Monday January 17, @06:20AM (4 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday January 17, @06:20AM (#1213338) Journal

            But, lo! I am not the one voting for Trump, twice! And admitting it on a public forum! Trump is an ignorant moron, like one of his other admirers here. He cannot, or will not, read. He pronounced the Himalayan nations as "Nipple" and "Button". He recommended the Lysol up the alimentary canal treatement for Covid-19. And Phoenix cannot understand why he should be cancelled for support of such idiocy? Twice? You can only stick it to the libs, or overthrow the Constitution in an insurgency of stupid insurrectionism, so many times before it becomes obvious you are not to be trusted. Right, khallow?

            It is my rationality that causes division from the insanity of Trumps supporters, and you need to decide which side you are on.

            --
            #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @10:54AM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @10:54AM (#1213369)

              I'm not in the USA, but when the alternatives were Killary and Sleepy Old Joe, I'd have voted for Trump too.
              And as Phoenix said, killing the TPP was a major weight on the good side of the scales.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @12:42PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @12:42PM (#1213376)

                haha the other 'choices' were party no 2.

                always vote 3rd party for the nations sake.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:30PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:30PM (#1213495)

                We get it, trumpers would vote for trump, seems a bit obvious dontcha think? So what great nation do you come from then?

                • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 18, @01:11AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 18, @01:11AM (#1213509)

                  You obviously don't "get it". Trump won in 2016 because Hillary was so bad a candidate, not because he was a great one. Four years later you almost did it again by offering a senile old political whore as the candidate.

                  When are the Democrats going to put forward a candidate whose main argument is something other than "at least I'm not as bad as the other guy" ?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @01:58AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @01:58AM (#1213295)

        More than a vanishingly small hundredth of a percent of the world population are trans, but the number is inflated by transtrenders and brainwashed non-binary types. They also tend to off themselves.

    • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @09:58PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @09:58PM (#1213260)

      You might want to actually check on which news agencies are filled with former intelligence agency big-wigs:
      https://greenwald.substack.com/p/nbc-news-uses-ex-fbi-official-frank [substack.com]

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:51AM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:51AM (#1213097)

    The article failed to mention that if the misinformation is published by a respected newspaper then it is always generally accepted. The traditional established media is where most misinformation comes from. Some newspapers even have the hide to instigate faux "fact checking". Governments are also frequently sources of deliberate misinformation, including about misinformation, and the sheeple accept it all unquestioningly.

    • (Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @01:55PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @01:55PM (#1213121)

      Bwahahahaha yes we should use NewsMax and OAN instead! Not to forget tucker and hannity!! Those true patriots will return us to glory!!! The fuck is wrong with reublicans? Or should we imagine that the sheeple detector uses only homegrown organic news sources?

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:34PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:34PM (#1213213)

        Why do you hate America, son? It makes baby Jesus weep.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:08PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:08PM (#1213397)

          crying is good for a baby's lungs

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @05:25PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @05:25PM (#1213166)

      Actually, the sheeple have stopped accepting it, at least to some extent, which is why there's this moral panic about "misinformation" now. That what fills that void is unmitigated bullshit + /pol/ conspiracy theories is another story.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:35PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:35PM (#1213214)

        Moral panic? I do believe you mean the pandemic.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:58PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:58PM (#1213246)

          The establishment losing it's shit about "misinformation" and "fake news" predates the pandemic by half a decade. It is a classic moral panic alright.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday January 17, @04:31AM (3 children)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday January 17, @04:31AM (#1213325)

      "Lugenpresse".

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press [wikipedia.org]

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:22AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:22AM (#1213339)

        We are using Richard Spencer recommended Nazi terminology, now? (In case anyone missed the obvious reference.)

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:11PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:11PM (#1213398)

          Whatever sins the skinheads and neonazis are guilty of, they do have a pretty clear view of the established press. You are used and manipulated by the propaganda masters. Sad that you can't see it.

          • (Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @05:31PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @05:31PM (#1213423)

            What do yall think? Should we tell him?

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday January 16, @11:06AM (26 children)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (4757) on Sunday January 16, @11:06AM (#1213102)

    is critical thinking, and a willingness to cross-check sources.

    That comes with education, and that takes roughly 20 years.

    The state of education in the US for the past few decades explains why misinformation is so successful today. Whereas in my days, 3/4 of what flies around today would have been quickly laughed at and dismissed outright by people with even a moderate school attendance record. Sorry if I sound old or "ageist" as they say today, but that's the plain old truth.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:30PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:30PM (#1213105)

      The problem is that you will not check the sources even if you want to.
      I was looking at most of news in my country's outlets and NEVER seen the information about source. Really. Even when it is about the recently published law act - there is a national site in which you can see new law acts published, there are no links to it. The only links are advertisements and they are paid links.
      So news outlets got what they wanted: they don't point to the sources, so they got misinformation. Sorry, that's how it works, you asked for it.

      • (Score: 1, Troll) by khallow on Sunday January 16, @05:51PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @05:51PM (#1213173) Journal

        The problem is that you will not check the sources even if you want to.

        Sounds like a pulled out of your ass problem. Maybe you need to find a better class of problem?

        When the reader gets blamed first thing for some perceived fault from a position of complete ignorance of the reader's context, I look elsewhere for the actual problem.

        I was looking at most of news in my country's outlets and NEVER seen the information about source. Really. Even when it is about the recently published law act - there is a national site in which you can see new law acts published, there are no links to it.

        Then sounds like you're looking in the wrong places. Look elsewhere. We really do have this figured out, seriously. News isn't some scientific journal. They routinely don't link to sources. You have to do the work yourself. So do the work yourself.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by darkfeline on Sunday January 16, @12:47PM (6 children)

      by darkfeline (1030) on Sunday January 16, @12:47PM (#1213109) Homepage

      >is critical thinking

      Unfortunately no. Humans just can't overcome their innate irrationality, at least not consistently. There are plenty of contemporary examples of esteemed individuals who clearly have critical thinking faculties and yet fall victim to "misinformation". As a bonus, there are examples for every side of every COVID-19 topic, so everyone can participate in this exercise. And if you feel there are no examples against your chosen side and you fancy yourself a critical thinker, you might want to do a bit of soul searching; you'll find an example right under your nose.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:10PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:10PM (#1213205)

        “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty” Albert Einstein

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:57PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:57PM (#1213228)

        100% correct, and I see it as based in ego. I think the pandemic is causing human nature in people to tend toward survival mode. I'm seeing worsening of "me me me, screw you" in US "society", and probably much of the rest of the world.

        To oversimplify, if we look at the human brain as 2 hemispheres, with one being more imagination and creativity where much of the ego is, and the other side rational ("critical thinking"), the more emotional / impulsive side wins out in crises.

        I also think the speed of information / communication (and therefore misinformation and miscommunication) plays into the more impulsive / ego side.

        The more rational side is much slower acting. "Sleep on it" is a great old snippet of wisdom. It means: don't make impulsive decisions, rather, give your brain time to process all of the complex data. Huge supercomputers take time to calculate pi, or DNA, or whatever. We don't just stop the machine and take whatever it has at the moment (I hope we don't!)

        The incredibly wise founders / framers of the USA understood that, and that's why they formulated a republic that became one of the greatest nations on earth. The sheeple are too gullible, too easily influenced, and as we've seen over and over, make very bad decisions. The hope was and is that no matter who eventually wins elections, that the process hopefully filters, such that any of the final candidates for political office will be pretty good.

        But those founder / framers didn't foresee the power of the speed and quantity of "information" of electronic "media".

        No matter your political leanings, pretty much everyone thinks the other side is misinformed. So at least we all agree on misinformation being a major problem.

        I think a very powerful component of the solution is to break up the media monopoly.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:11PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:11PM (#1213233)

          > the media monopoly

          The media monopoly doesn't exist in a vaccuum. It's the propaganda arm of corporations wealthier than most countries. Break them up? How?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:18PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:18PM (#1213262)

            International general strike.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:15PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:15PM (#1213399)

              That will accomplish little. You need to get those corporations into court, and fuck them up in court. Silly strikes might sting them a little, but they'll shake that off and continue 'business as usual'. A determined court can destroy the biggest of corporations. A coordinated effort by a dozen of the most powerful governments will bring the biggest multinational to their knees in short order.

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:58PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:58PM (#1213247)

          >To oversimplify, if we look at the human brain as 2 hemispheres, with one being more imagination and creativity where much of the ego is, and the other side rational ("critical thinking"), the more emotional / impulsive side wins out in crises.

          It's nothing to do with the hemispheres, and everything to do with the amygdala and hypothalamus and executive feedback loops.

          >they formulated a republic that became one of the greatest nations on earth.

          They had the benefit of a largely uncontested and immensely wealthy land possessed of virtually every resource in an era when technology was sufficiently advanced for efficient extraction of that wealth. They had the biggest leg-up of any nation in the world. This is a correlation/causation issue and I'd posit that given the state of affairs today it's reflective of the fact that the system, like all governments before it, is the problem. The fact of the matter is that it is exploitable, and has been exploited, and has been so for decades largely unchallenged because of the immense inertia it possesses. And all the process does is obfuscate by implying itself as democratic while ingraining a self-perpetuating aristocracy who at the end of the day tends to be incompetent because there simply isn't a real metric to measure them against.

    • (Score: 2) by inertnet on Sunday January 16, @01:15PM (4 children)

      by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @01:15PM (#1213117)

      The state of education

      It would be evil if educational standards are intentionally lowered down. Sorry for bringing him into the discussion, but Hitler once said, after taking (I think it was) Ukraine and was met with resistance from intellectuals, that their local school system had to be changed. He said: "as servants they only need to be able to count up to 100, so they will be too stupid to revolt".

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @04:09PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @04:09PM (#1213150)

        The state of education

        It would be evil if educational standards are intentionally lowered down. Sorry for bringing him into the discussion, but Hitler once said, after taking (I think it was) Ukraine and was met with resistance from intellectuals, that their local school system had to be changed. He said: "as servants they only need to be able to count up to 100, so they will be too stupid to revolt".

        Given the thread, don't you think you should have provided a citation at least for the quote, or were you just making a point by not doing so?

        • (Score: 2) by inertnet on Monday January 17, @12:25AM (2 children)

          by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @12:25AM (#1213283)

          It's in ISBN 342116607 on page 76. The quote was actually written by Bormann, but he just wrote down Hitler's ideas: "Die slawische Fruchtbarkeit is unerwünscht... Bildung ist gefährlich. Es genügt, wenn sie bis hundert zählen können".

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday January 18, @05:04AM (1 child)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 18, @05:04AM (#1213532) Journal
            Does "ISBN 342116607" have a title? Author?
            • (Score: 3, Informative) by inertnet on Tuesday January 18, @07:49AM

              by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 18, @07:49AM (#1213542)

              ISBN 342116607
              Title: Die letzten Notizen von Martin Bormann. Ein Dokument und seine Verfasser.
              Author: Lew Besymenski

              The book was originally written by Russian historian Besymenski. The Russians were the first to enter Berlin at the end of the war, and they brought a lot of documents to Russia. Their historians had a lot to work with. The book was later translated to German and I bought it for some research I did. The "count to 100" quote was actually meant for all Slavic people including Russia. But if I remember correctly it was because the Germans met some resistance by Ukrainian intellectuals and concluded that intellectuals are undesirable among "Untermensche".

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:23PM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:23PM (#1213183)

      Sorry, but much of education is the process of ERADICATING critical thinking and stuffing heads with the desired worldview. You generally don't get the best grade by disagreeing with the teacher. Science and math courses are of course not opinion based but generally fields with a "correct" answer, so what I said is a liberal arts problem.

      English and history departments (psychology for upper studies) are the worst about this because they are based on story telling.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:13PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:13PM (#1213206)

        The polarization in politics began with education. Non-STEM education was an easy target, but also convenient as philosophy is an easy economic target and helps minimize anyone that criticizes the creep towards fascism. Wonder why it took conservatives so long to reize how fascist the US is, but it is also scary how it was eadily done through lies. Things are going to get much worse before better

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:55PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:55PM (#1213227)

          The camo, black outfits and military worship are a subtle clue...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU [youtube.com]

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:39PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @08:39PM (#1213241)

          Define fascist, 'cause that's quite a fucking non-sensical buzzword that gets tossed around by both sides with an impossibly fluid definition. And it has been for a long time, Orwell wrote on it in fact.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:24PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:24PM (#1213264)

            Fascism [wikipedia.org]

            According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far right. One common definition of the term, frequently cited by reliable sources as a standard definition, is that of historian Stanley G. Payne.

            Payne's definition of fascism focuses on three concepts:

            - "Fascist negations" – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism.
            - "Fascist goals" – the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire.
            - "Fascist style" – a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:08PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:08PM (#1213274)

            It's not a buzzword. It has clear meaning, though perhaps more expansive than mathematicians would prefer. Fascists benefit when others insist on narrow, binary definitions.

            I shall polnt out an excellent resource [theanarchistlibrary.org], written by Umberto Eco, which highlights how important it is that fascism exists in multiple dimensions. Three takeaways:

            • Not all elements need be present at once for your nation (and you) to get fucked over by fascism. Two or three is usually enough.
            • Because there are over a dozen elements to build with, different flavours of fascim can have totally disparate category basis - they appear unrelated only on the surface.
            • Fascists take advantage of lazy heuristics - people like binary definitions because they're simple. Fascists change just one or two things in their agenda and then say "we're not fascists" with a straight face to suchlike lazy people.

            Orwell's take is a great starting point. But it's only a start. Eco made the problem comprehensible to non-academics. Rigid definitions, as Aristotle pointed out, are only useful in one field (and it's not politics).

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:51AM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:51AM (#1213372)

              And yet you fail to both refute his point and to define fascism.
              Historically (and the original definition), fascism was the amalgamation of state power and corporatism.
              Currently, "Fascism" is a derogatory term that means "Authoritarians I don't like".

              • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:56PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:56PM (#1213387)

                I'm not doing the homework for some random stranger whose primary feature is being a disingeneous asshole on the internet.

                • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:21PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:21PM (#1213403)

                  Fascist.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:18PM (#1213402)

        You generally don't get the best grade by disagreeing with the teacher.

        True, as a generality. But, there have been times and places that bucked the trend.

    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 17, @06:26PM (1 child)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @06:26PM (#1213434) Journal

      The people who are against education are the same group that would do away with thought control and would forbid any dark sarcasm.

      --
      Difference between inlaws and outlaws: outlaws are wanted.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DrkShadow on Sunday January 16, @11:09AM (11 children)

    by DrkShadow (1404) on Sunday January 16, @11:09AM (#1213103)

    What was the gradual change of ideas that have led national political parties to be ever more different from one another,

    Different? Every time I look they're more and more the same. Wasn't it Trump who offered to buy the pfizer vaccine, if it were limited to US use? Had the Democrats not won the next election, the Republicans would have been forcing the vaccine on people so hard people would likely have sued to stop it. Oh, wait...

    The republicrats are entirely the same party. It's just that they opt to be difficult toward whatever the other wants to do. Note how the democrats recently passed some bill with absolutely zero Republican support, but the democrats were earlier saying that for something to be successful it needs the buy-in of both parties.

    "Both". Two parties. That are the same, but just try to be difficult to make the other look bad. Two parties. For 300 million people, two. Ugh.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by gznork26 on Sunday January 16, @01:17PM (8 children)

      by gznork26 (1159) on Sunday January 16, @01:17PM (#1213118) Homepage Journal

      Submitter here. Thanks for pointing this out. On an absolute scale, when compared to the rest of the world, the two US parties are both right wing, but one is more extreme than the other. To keep entraining their adherents, both parties focus the people's attention on the few differences that exist, while hiding their vast similarities. This hypnosis allows them to gradually move the shared bulk of their objectives further rightwards. But the method remains consistent with the proposed model.

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by DrkShadow on Sunday January 16, @01:48PM (7 children)

        by DrkShadow (1404) on Sunday January 16, @01:48PM (#1213119)

        Interesting take/feedback.

        ---
        One of the things that gets me: over time, the Democratic party became more republican (big-gov) than the republicans. (Decent reference: https://www.livescience.com/34241-democratic-republican-parties-switch-platforms.html [livescience.com] -- though I read more about the shift / stay-the-same / 1990's in school than I am at this link.)

        In the past, as we know, the Democrats were more for small government, and the republicans were for centralization and control. That hasn't necessarily changed for the republicans - the attempt to acquire (own) the vaccine, the banking breaks, the business-oriented goals.. all republicans in the past and present. However, the democratic party shifted around them to become more-republican-than-the-republicans, in their attempt to win the west -- at the time, republican viewpoints of personal freedoms, equal rights, safety-net, etc that were adopted by the Democrats.

        Ok.

        What that means to me is that Republicans have been basically the same for the life of the United States (pandering to the same core group?) while the Democrats have changed with the "popular thing". I would argue that both have their good-merit (We have our core principles! Times change and people change, so change with them!) so I can't necessarily fault either party, but ... maybe they've both settled in basically the same spot. And so, they've become the Republicrats. (Maybe this will change some more, and the democrats will change with them and there will again be a natural difference between the parties.)

        Just a recently-old dude rambling on. Feel free to ignore this comment. :-)

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @04:04PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @04:04PM (#1213149)

          Democrats were more for small government

          That part, at least is laughably wrong. The Dems have always been for more big government.

          republicans were for centralization and control

          Another knee-slapper. The Republicans were always much more supportive of the 10th Amendment than the Democrats ever were.

          One of the main differences was the Democrats long history as the party of slavery and segregation. Remember just the other day when Biden asked if the people wanted to be George Wallace, Bull Connor and Jefferson Davis? Note that all of them were Democrats. Joe Biden used to heap praise on George Wallace (ref [newsweek.com]).

          It's worth remembering, with the Martin Luther King holiday tomorrow, that MLK was a Republican.

          • (Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:16PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:16PM (#1213208)

            > It's worth remembering, with the Martin Luther King holiday tomorrow, that MLK was a Republican.

            It's also worth remembering that the parties "switched" at some point in past, causing no end of confusion to right-wing blowhards from that date on. So confusing for them.

            • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:47PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:47PM (#1213220)

              "I don't think the Republican party is a party full of the almighty God nor is the Democratic party. They both have weaknesses ... And I'm not inextricably bound to either party."[380] King did praise Democratic Senator Paul Douglas of Illinois as being the "greatest of all senators" because of his fierce advocacy for civil rights causes over the years."

              wikipedia

              So he wasn't much affiliated with R or D, just more FUD from Republicans that don't want to be the party of racist fascists. Well, they don't want to admit to it anyway, though surely some truly don't like the racist fascism.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:22PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:22PM (#1213404)

              Why is that nonsense moderated as 'informative'? It's a crock of shit, it always has been a crock of shit. "We'll have those niggers voting for us for the next 200 years." There was no switcheroo, the Dems were using blacks then, and they are using blacks now. It's far past time people woke up and understood that Dems don't care for anyone, they care about POWER!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:06PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @11:06PM (#1213489)

                Viciously allowing gay marriage, equality, voting rights. Those bastards!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 19, @05:57AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 19, @05:57AM (#1213789)

                  "We'll have those niggers queers voting for us for the next 200 years."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:27AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:27AM (#1213341)

          What that means to me is that Republicans have been basically the same for the life of the United States

          Um, are we Jaywalking tonight? The Republican party did not exist before 1854, its first national candidate was Abraham Lincoln. Perhaps you refer to the Whigs? (Oh, the United States have "lived" since 1789, with the ratification of the Constitution.)

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday January 17, @04:38AM (1 child)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday January 17, @04:38AM (#1213326)

      >The republicrats are entirely the same party.

      I will give you a difference.

      Our nuclear bombs were built and are maintained by the Department of Energy. Under Obama, the DOE was headed by a nuclear physicist. Under Trump, the head was a Texas politician who did not know what the agency did.

      Want another one? Max Boot is a columnist who emigrated from the USSR, hates dictatorships, and was a Reagan Republican. Today he is a straight ticket Democratic voter. He doesn't consider himself a Democrat but he sees what is going on with the organization that used to be called the Republican Party and he will do anything to oppose it.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 18, @11:21PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 18, @11:21PM (#1213711)

        Under Trump, the head was a Texas politician who did not know what the agency did.

        .... and? Stupid person made stupid decision. Based on the rest of the comment, I think I've identified another.

        Want to know a really big, really stupid party decision? the Democrats shanked their slam-dunk candidate (Bernie) and put in his place a candidate so vile that the candidate lost to TRUMP. Go ahead. Try and defend that.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Mojibake Tengu on Sunday January 16, @12:18PM

    by Mojibake Tengu (8598) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @12:18PM (#1213104) Journal

    What was the gradual change of ideas that have led national political parties to be ever more different from one another, and who fed them those messages?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli [wikipedia.org]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule [wikipedia.org]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj [wikipedia.org]

    Social decoherence is a model of local stability induction by system compartment. It is a kind of braking by friction or turbulence in a domain of social processes.

    When opposition/uprising/rebellion to governance occurs somewhere in a well-fragmented society, by the added costs of passing ideas through the barriers of decoherence, any chances to unite the movement to be strong enough to form a successful systemic change (revolution) are significantly lowered.

    So, the real question is: What were you prevented to achieve?

    --
    The edge of 太玄 cannot be defined, for it is beyond every aspect of design
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:48PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @12:48PM (#1213110)

    >countermeasures

    The countermeasure to an enemy having nuclear weapons was to have /bigger/ nuclear weapons... In this context, and mentioned in the blog/journal, it's tighter cognitive manipulation, aka 'weaponizing peer pressure'. What could possibly go wrong...

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:00PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:00PM (#1213122)

    There was an editor's note about whether to run this story or not? What gives, where'd it go?

    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday January 17, @08:08PM (1 child)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @08:08PM (#1213459) Journal

      Where did what go? What did the "editors' note" say? Where was it?

      --
      We are always looking for new staff in different areas - please volunteer if you have some spare time and wish to help
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Mockingbird on Tuesday January 18, @12:32AM

        by Mockingbird (15239) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 18, @12:32AM (#1213503) Journal

        Exactly. Getting harder and harder to remember where you put things, eh? How about an AirTag [apple.com]?

        --
        "It is a sin to kill a mockingbird" Atticus Finch
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Username on Sunday January 16, @02:03PM (34 children)

    by Username (4557) on Sunday January 16, @02:03PM (#1213123)

    This has nothing to do with misinformation, it's about suppressing dissent. There has been a huge authoritarian push, with the majority of the press on board, that has been sweeping the united states the last few years. They've been in lockstep with a political party, an unpopular political party, with a 38% approval rating, that got into power though a very suspicious election. This party is comprised of members who filled their need for religion, not with god, but with the politics of their group. They supplant reality with the fables and stories of the party. Like the hands up don't shoot, covington catholic hates natives, or Kyle Rittenhouse killed three black guys kind of nonsense that was completely fabricated. Whenever you point out how they're wrong, their brown shirts come out of the woodwork and start swearing at and insulting you. I have no doubt these fascists would try to kill me in real life. These people are just so full of hate. They just want you to accept their beliefs or die. I wish they'd just smoke some dope, and reevaluate their life. Maybe that's not enough, probably need a DMT trip or two to push them out of their psychosis.

    • (Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:12PM (13 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:12PM (#1213127)

      So you're a Joe Rogan fan too stupid to realize how much of an idiot he is. The DNC is shite, but Republicans are literally approving of anti-democratic violence.

      Want fake news and misinformation? Come to SoylentNews and experience the testing ground for bullshit.

      • (Score: -1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:26PM (10 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:26PM (#1213130)

        Didn't see much violence from the right in 2020. We saw cities held hostage by the left though. Fiery but mostly peaceful violence. Or some such silly shit. But, you'll tell us not to believe our lying eyes, and accept the party line. You are a perfect example of misinformation applied successfully. Step back and think awhile, and you'll begin to understand that the "insurrection" of Jan 6th is little more than projection from your side.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:32PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:32PM (#1213133)

          Always the stupid whataboutism from the stupid insurrectionists too entitled to take even a modicum of responsibility.

          The fact the people supported the BLM protesters while condemning the rioters seems too complicated for your limited mental faculties. Shit son, you can't even tell an insurrection when it is recorded on video for you! Fascist traitors gotta pretend they're chosen opponents are the real enemy, thanks for illustrating the point immediately.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday January 16, @06:07PM (8 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @06:07PM (#1213177) Journal
            I guess you missed this bit of whataboutism?

            So you're a Joe Rogan fan too stupid to realize how much of an idiot he is. The DNC is shite, but Republicans are literally approving of anti-democratic violence.

            That wouldn't happen to be your contribution to this discussion?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:41PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:41PM (#1213216)

              Aren't you one of the ones saying the insurrection didn't happen? Truly a master of reality you are /s

              • (Score: 2, Troll) by khallow on Sunday January 16, @07:50PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @07:50PM (#1213221) Journal

                Aren't you one of the ones saying the insurrection didn't happen?

                Nope. I was instead saying that the riot in question was not an insurrection. The evidence supports me, such as a lack of action indicating lack of intent to commit insurrection (entered Capitol and milled around for a while), poorly armed for an insurrection when it would be easy to show up heavily armed (firearms instead of flagpoles and fire extinguishers, for example), and an absence of any planning of said insurrection.

              • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Sunday January 16, @07:52PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 16, @07:52PM (#1213223) Journal
                I also couldn't help but notice your deflection from the subject to my alleged stance on "the insurrection". That's a classic whataboutism tactic. I guess you're just broken, eh?
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:32PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:32PM (#1213266)

                And thirdly, their firearms were taken to the riot in a truck, which means that it wasn't an attempted insurrection and attack against the Constitution.

                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday January 17, @07:24AM (1 child)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @07:24AM (#1213352) Journal

                  And thirdly, their firearms were taken to the riot in a truck

                  But not carried or used in said riot. See a pattern there?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:26PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:26PM (#1213406)

                    They're too stupid to understand. Just too stupid. They've got their talking points from CNN, and they won't allow anything to distract them from chanting the mantra.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:32AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @06:32AM (#1213344)

              That wouldn't happen to be your contribution to this discussion?

              Do try to keep up, khallow! It is always a good thing to have idiots pointed out as such. Consider, Rand Paul! But I usually point out that Rogan, Jordan Peterson, and Newt Gingrich are what someone once pointed as "a stupid person's idea of a smart person". Second order Dunning-Kroger, I guess. But of a kind, as Trump is a stupid person's idea of a billionaire. "If he's so rich, why isn't he smart?" See where all this is going? Khallow?

              • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Monday January 17, @07:31AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @07:31AM (#1213353) Journal

                It is always a good thing to have idiots pointed out as such.

                I'm glad my efforts are appreciated.

                See where all this is going? Khallow?

                The real question: do you?

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Username on Sunday January 16, @02:29PM (1 child)

        by Username (4557) on Sunday January 16, @02:29PM (#1213132)

        > too stupid
        > idiot he is
        > is shite
        > for bullshit

        I fail to understand your argument.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:34PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @02:34PM (#1213134)

          > I fail to understand your argument.

          No one is surprised.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @05:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @05:41PM (#1213170)

      What are some better options?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:35PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:35PM (#1213186)

      fascists? brown shirts? why don't you go watch Adolf Hitler: The Greatest Story Never Told so you can stop regurgitating the blood libel/Jew lies you've been taught.

      https://odysee.com/@stpierrs:f/Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told-(Full).mp4:3 [odysee.com]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:06PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:06PM (#1213200)

        Hopefully your brain gets dissected so wr can learn more about your mental illness.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @05:07AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @05:07AM (#1213330)

          An electronic microscope powerful enough hasn't been invented yet.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @06:41PM (#1213190)

      Oh look, a theocratic fascist try hard!

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:20PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:20PM (#1213209)

      Whenever you point out how they're wrong, their brown shirts come out of the woodwork and start swearing at and insulting you. I have no doubt these fascists would try to kill me in real life. These people are just so full of hate. They just want you to accept their beliefs or die.

      Boo!??

      This is the main mis-information of the FA:

      What was the gradual change of ideas that have led national political parties to be ever more different from one another,

      There was no "change of ideas", it is just that one party decided to dispense with them. This is why there was no Republical party platform, and why there were no ideas at the recent Florence rally.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:23PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @07:23PM (#1213210)

        No ideas??! What are you talking about? There's, I mean there's... repeal Obamacare. Among other things. And... and... freedom, of course. And abortions.... LOOK, this is not the time for 1/2 measures. We need to take our country back first, by any means necessary, then we can instill some family values around here.

    • (Score: 2) by helel on Sunday January 16, @08:35PM

      by helel (2949) on Sunday January 16, @08:35PM (#1213240)

      First, it would help if you could format your ... argument ... a little better. Wall of text doesn't lend itself to reading particularly well.

      The fact that you start out describing Republicans and then jump to Democrats mid steam is also confusing. I understand the impulse to paint the two with the same brush, given their behavior and beliefs, but maybe make that explicit rather than implied?

      Finally, the whole "I stopped being conservative after taking DMT and realizing other people have feelings" thing is amusing but you make it unclear whether you view this as an actual solution to the fascists in the Republican (and Democrat?) party or if it's just a joke.

      --
      Republican Patriotism [youtube.com]
    • (Score: 2) by qzm on Sunday January 16, @08:44PM (10 children)

      by qzm (3260) on Sunday January 16, @08:44PM (#1213242)

      Unfortunately you are largely correct, even though the majority will knee jerk and name call against you - which regrettably almost proves your point.
      there is a good reason its being labeled 'misinformation' now 'false information', as that is often being attacked is not actually false, just 'against the narrative' - ie: dissent.
      So, misinformation is now mostly just meaning dissent, and dissent is now punishable by the mob it seems.. and that is a very bad thing in general.

      However you are wrong that it is a US thing - this is throughout most of the western world, and not even lead by the US it seems.

      What you probably need to do is take a step back from the 'OMG Headline' approach being blasted, and look at how the world is actually evolving right now.
      It wont look much better, and the conclusions are similar, however what you will most likely see is the number of people doing the screaming are a much smaller percentage than their volume makes them appear.
      There are a majority who 'follow along', however they are more easily coaxed back to reality - they are followers not true believers.

      It is important to ignore, laugh at, and mock the true believers at times - but also feel sorry for them. They are caught up in a cult.

      If the cult succeeds, then dystopian socialism is the outcome (socialism has always turned dystopian, and there is no reason to believe it wont again), however most likely we will see a normal drift back as more people reject the crazy.

      • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:30PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @10:30PM (#1213265)

        > (socialism has always turned dystopian, and there is no reason to believe it wont again)

        Just a friendly note to qzm (3260):
        Time to read up on the Nordic countries, highly socialistic and for the most part doing just fine.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:02PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 16, @11:02PM (#1213272)

          Rightwing puds fon't see any difference between communism and socialusm. To be fair lots of dictatorships have tried to sell themselves as socialust when they were really just authoritarian or full blown fascist.

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:12AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:12AM (#1213300)

            People who believe in Marxism are like the young girls who believe that her boyfriend will only stick the head in. Neither understands the lie until they've been thoroughly shafted.

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 17, @03:46AM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 17, @03:46AM (#1213314) Journal

              Define "Marxism" for us, please? Marx's problem is he's a natural born critic, meaning he's dead-on right about what the problems are but not who you want to ask for solutions to them, is all.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @08:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @08:56PM (#1213472)

            and in the US we were always taught that Socialism is just Communism-lite, by the capitalist Jews, of course. The same Jews that funded the oh-so-anti-capitalist Jews in Russia who murdered 10's of millions of White Russians in the Bolshevik Revolution and the Holodomor.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by aristarchus on Sunday January 16, @11:09PM (4 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday January 16, @11:09PM (#1213275) Journal

        So, misinformation is now mostly just meaning dissent, and dissent is now punishable by the mob it seems.. and that is a very bad thing in general.

        That there is some first-class mis-information! Well done, qzm! So nazi racist fascism is just "dissent", much like attempting to overthrow the Constitution of the United States? Not just the "Big Lie", but the "Very Big Lie"! VBL!!

        --
        #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:09AM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @02:09AM (#1213298)

          You are the master of disingenuity, aren't you? (lol, spellchecker really doesn't like that word. [collinsdictionary.com])

          Cancel culture cancels people for much, much lesser 'infractions' than preaching Nazi doctrine. How's your critical race crusade going? Rational people put CRT and Antifa right up there beside Nietzsche's fairy tales.

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Monday January 17, @06:37AM (2 children)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday January 17, @06:37AM (#1213346) Journal

            Cancel culture cancels people for much, much lesser 'infractions' than preaching Nazi doctrine

            What did you have in mind? White supremacy? Denying women control over their own bodies? Threatening public health and the lives of others because you are stupid? Defending exploitation of the "lower" classes? Supporting genocide, of indigenous people? Or deadly violence by law enforcement against minorities? I'm not saying you're racist, but, . . .

            --
            #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:32PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 17, @04:32PM (#1213408)

              all bullshit of course

              you, aristarchus, toss terms like fascist and nazi around to the point the terms become meaningless

              • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Monday January 17, @09:30PM

                by aristarchus (2645) on Monday January 17, @09:30PM (#1213477) Journal

                You lack of vocabulary does not consititute an obligation for the rest of us to have to explain the meanings of words every single time they are apropos!

                --
                #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Monday January 17, @04:43AM

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Monday January 17, @04:43AM (#1213327)

      You know, you could talk to a single left-winger and find out otherwise.

      But no, the guy on AM radio told you to be scared, so he could shop you to his advertisers with your higher functions turned off.

      Perfect example of the problem.

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