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posted by martyb on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:11PM   Printer-friendly
from the absence-of-proof-is-not-proof-of-absence dept.

Despite U.S. Pressure, Germany Refuses To Exclude Huawei's 5G Technology

The Trump administration insists that Chinese firm Huawei, which makes 5G technology, could hand over data to the Chinese government. The U.S. has warned European allies, including Germany, Hungary and Poland, to ban Huawei from its 5G network or risk losing access to intelligence-sharing.

Germany has refused to ban any company, despite pressure from the U.S. Instead, Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated that her country would instead tighten security rules. "Our approach is not to simply exclude one company or one actor," she told a conference in Berlin on Tuesday, "but rather we have requirements of the competitors for this 5G technology."

Did The U.S. Just Lose Its War With Huawei?

"There are two things I don't believe in," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Tuesday, referring to Germany's standoff with the United States over Huawei's inclusion in her country's 5G rollout. "First, to discuss these very sensitive security questions publicly, and, second, to exclude a company simply because it's from a certain country."

Europe now seems likely to settle on 'careful and considered' inclusion of Huawei instead of any blanket bans. Chancellor Merkel stressed this week that a joined-up EU response would be "desirable", and Italy and the U.K. are also backing away from Washington's prohibition on Huawei's 5G technology. If they fold, it is likely the broader European Union will follow suit. And if those key European allies can't be carried, what chance Asia-Pacific, Africa, the Middle East?

There comes a tipping point in any battle, and with this one, we may be just about there. Even as the head of the U.S. European Command told the Armed Services Committee "we're concerned about [Germany's] telecommunications' backbone being compromised... If [Huawei] is inside of their defense communications, then we're not going to communicate with them," the industry was delivering a very different message. "We've not seen any evidence of backdoors into the network," said Vodafone's most senior lawyer in the U.K. "If the Americans have evidence, please put it out on the table."

Clearest sign yet of diminished U.S. influence?

Also at Bloomberg and Reuters.

Previously: U.S. Lawmakers Urge AT&T to Cut Ties With Huawei
The U.S. Intelligence Community's Demonization of Huawei Remains Highly Hypocritical
New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei
Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project
Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei
Huawei's Equipment Removed from UK Telecom BT's Network for Emergency Services
Australian Residents Reject Huawei Small Cell Boxes

Related: Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites
Huawei Under Investigation by DoJ for Theft of T-Mobile Trade Secrets
The FBI Conducted a Sting Operation on Huawei During CES
The US Cannot Crush us, Says Huawei Founder


Original Submission

Related Stories

U.S. Lawmakers Urge AT&T to Cut Ties With Huawei 17 comments

Exclusive: U.S. lawmakers urge AT&T to cut commercial ties with Huawei - sources

U.S. lawmakers are urging AT&T Inc, the No. 2 wireless carrier, to cut commercial ties to Chinese phone maker Huawei Technologies Co Ltd and oppose plans by telecom operator China Mobile Ltd to enter the U.S. market because of national security concerns, two congressional aides said.

[...] Earlier this month, AT&T was forced to scrap a plan to offer its customers Huawei handsets after some members of Congress lobbied against the idea with federal regulators, sources told Reuters.

The U.S. government has also blocked a string of Chinese acquisitions over national security concerns, including Ant Financial's proposed purchase of U.S. money transfer company MoneyGram International Inc.

The lawmakers are also advising U.S. firms that if they have ties to Huawei or China Mobile, it could hamper their ability to do business with the U.S. government, one aide said, requesting anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

Related: NSA Spied on Chinese Government and Huawei
Kaspersky Willing to Hand Source Code Over to U.S. Government
Kaspersky Lab has been Working With Russian Intelligence
FBI Reportedly Advising Companies to Ditch Kaspersky Apps
Federal Government, Concerned About Cyberespionage, Bans Use of Kaspersky Labs Products


Original Submission

The U.S. Intelligence Community's Demonization of Huawei Remains Highly Hypocritical 51 comments

Submitted via IRC for Runaway1956

The U.S. Intel Community's Demonization of Huawei Remains Highly Hypocritical

We've noted for some time how Chinese hardware vendor Huawei has been consistently accused of spying on American citizens without any substantive, public evidence. You might recall that these accusations flared up several years ago, resulting in numerous investigations that culminated in no hard evidence whatsoever to support the allegations. We're not talking about superficial inquiries, we're talking about eighteen months, in-depth reviews by people with every interest in exposing them. One anonymous insider put it this way in the wake of the last bout of hysteria surrounding the company:

We knew certain parts of government really wanted" evidence of active spying, said one of the people, who requested anonymity. "We would have found it if it were there.

[...] This week, hysteria concerning Huawei again reached a fevered pitch, as U.S. intelligence chiefs, testifying before Congress over Russian hacking and disinformation concerns, again proclaimed that Huawei was spying on American citizens and their products most assuredly should not be used:

At the hearing, FBI Director Chris Wray testified, "We're deeply concerned about the risks of allowing any company or entity that is beholden to foreign governments that don't share our values to gain positions of power inside our telecommunications networks." Purchasing Huawei or ZTE products, Wray added, "provides the capacity to maliciously modify or steal information. And it provides the capacity to conduct undetected espionage.

Which values would those be, exactly? Would it be the values, as leaked Edward Snowden docs revealed, that resulted in the NSA hacking into Huawei, stealing source code, then attempting to plant its own backdoors into Huawei products? Or perhaps it's the values inherent in working closely with companies like AT&T to hoover up every shred of data that touches the AT&T network and share it with the intelligence community? Perhaps it's the values inherent in trying to demonize encryption, by proxy weakening security for everyone?

New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei 26 comments

President Trump yesterday signed a defense funding bill that included a sweeping ban on the US government using technology supplied by Chinese telecommunications giants ZTE and Huawei. The bill also includes a narrower ban on using surveillance gear provided by Chinese companies Hytera Communications, Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology, or Dahua Technology for national security applications.

The legislation directs federal agencies to stop using the Chinese-made hardware within two years. If that proves impractical, an agency can apply for a waiver to permit a longer phase-out period.

Obviously, being banned from selling to the US government is a significant blow to these companies. But overall the bill actually represents something of a reprieve for ZTE. Back in June, the US Senate passed a version of the bill that would have re-imposed an export ban that would have been a de facto death sentence for ZTE because ZTE is heavily dependent on components like Qualcomm chips and Google's Android operating system.

Previously: Verizon Cancels Plans to Sell Huawei Phone Due to U.S. Government Pressure
U.S. Intelligence Agency Heads Warn Against Using Huawei and ZTE Products
The U.S. Intelligence Community's Demonization of Huawei Remains Highly Hypocritical
Huawei CEO Still Committed to the U.S. Market
Rural Wireless Association Opposes U.S. Government Ban on Huawei and ZTE Equipment
ZTE Suspends Operations Due to U.S. Ban (UPDATED)


Original Submission

Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project 13 comments

The Sydney Morning Herald reports that Australia's government on Thursday banned major Chinese telecoms firm Huawei Technologies from supplying equipment for its planned 5G mobile network, citing risks of foreign interference.

The 1000-word statement did not mention China, or the Chinese telecommunications equipment giants Huawei or ZTE. Nor did it plainly state the bombshell decision that they are to be banned from building Australia's new telecommunications network.

The fifth generation mobile telecoms system, or 5G, is a big deal. It's to be the key architecture of an increasingly wired nation, connecting power and water systems, medical and driverless technologies, systems in homes and hospitals, factories and farms, enabling the so-called "internet of things".

If you're getting the impression that the government didn't want to draw attention to the announcement, you're right. After months of careful scrutiny, the cabinet's national security committee had made the decision a week earlier. Then sat on it.

Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei 36 comments

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1984

Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei

The U.S. government has initiated an extraordinary outreach campaign to foreign allies, trying to persuade wireless and internet providers in these countries to avoid telecommunications equipment from China's Huawei Technologies Co., according to people familiar with the situation.

American officials have briefed their government counterparts and telecom executives in friendly countries where Huawei equipment is already in wide use, including Germany, Italy and Japan, about what they see as cybersecurity risks, these people said. The U.S. is also considering increasing financial aid for telecommunications development in countries that shun Chinese-made equipment, some of these people say.

Also: The US is warning other countries against using Huawei's 5G tech


Original Submission

Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites 86 comments

Huawei Arrest Tests China's Leaders as Fear and Anger Grip Elite

The arrest of one of China's leading tech executives by the Canadian police for extradition to the United States has unleashed a combustible torrent of outrage and alarm among affluent and influential Chinese, posing a delicate political test for President Xi Jinping and his grip on the loyalty of the nation's elite.

The outpouring of conflicting sentiments — some Chinese have demanded a boycott of American products while others have expressed anxiety about their investments in the United States — underscores the unusual, politically charged nature of the Trump administration's latest move to counter China's drive for technological superiority.

In a hearing on Friday in Vancouver, Canadian prosecutors said the executive, Meng Wanzhou of the Chinese telecom giant Huawei, faced accusations of participating in a scheme to trick financial institutions into making transactions that violated United States sanctions against Iran.

Unlike a new round of tariffs or more tough rhetoric from American officials, the detention of Ms. Meng, the company's chief financial officer, appears to have driven home the intensifying rivalry between the United States and China in a visceral way for the Chinese establishment — and may force Mr. Xi to adopt a tougher stance against Washington, analysts said. In part, that is because Ms. Meng, 46, is so embedded in that establishment herself.

Previously: Canada Arrests Huawei's Global Chief Financial Officer in Vancouver

Related: New Law Bans U.S. Government from Buying Equipment from Chinese Telecom Giants ZTE and Huawei
Australia Bans China's Huawei (and maybe ZTE) from 5G Mobile Network Project
Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei


Original Submission

Huawei's Equipment Removed from UK Telecom BT's Network for Emergency Services 14 comments

Huawei's kit removed from emergency services 4G network

BT has confirmed that equipment made by Huawei is being removed from the heart of a communication system being developed for the UK's police forces and other emergency services. It follows a statement from BT earlier this month that it was swapping out the Chinese firm's kit from the "core" of its 3G and 4G mobile networks.

The Sunday Telegraph was first to report the latest development. It said the move could extend work on the late-running £2.3bn project.

BT is covering the cost of the switch. It does not believe the changeover will lead to a further delay.

See also: Defying US crackdown, Huawei ships a record 200 million smartphones in 2018

Huawei on SN.


Original Submission

Australian Residents Reject Huawei Small Cell Boxes 16 comments

Residents in a Sydney suburb have rejected small cell Huawei boxes that are part of the 5G rollout. While this type of infrastructure normally requires approval, these boxes are simply being stuck on poles around the place. Their purpose is to supplement the forthcoming 5G network which will replace the existing 3G/4G network in the future. The residents so far are limiting themselves to requesting the local council to removing the undesired boxes.

Are they just fearful Luddites or are they blocking Big Brother?


Original Submission

Huawei Under Investigation by DoJ for Theft of T-Mobile Trade Secrets 7 comments

Report: DOJ pursuing criminal charges against Huawei for theft of tech

In the wake of a civil lawsuit by T-Mobile and other telecommunications companies against the Chinese networking and telecommunications company Huawei, the US Department of Justice is reportedly conducting a criminal investigation of the company. According to a Wall Street Journal report, the DOJ is close to filing an indictment against Huawei for theft of trade secrets, including the technology used in a robot developed by T-Mobile to test smartphones.

[...] In the recent civil case, which was originally filed in 2014, a jury in Seattle found that Huawei had stolen robotic technology from a T-Mobile lab. Huawei had used the access it gained by being a handset supplier to obtain copies of the robot's specifications and steal software, parts, and trade secrets from the lab. According to T-Mobile's original filing in the suit, "Huawei initially tried to cover up its actions but ultimately admitted that its employees misappropriated parts and information about T-Mobile's robot in coordination with Huawei R&D so that Huawei could build and improve its own testing robot."


Original Submission

The FBI Conducted a Sting Operation on Huawei During CES 26 comments

FBI reportedly carried out a sting operation on Huawei at a burger joint - While a Bloomberg reporter watched from a nearby gelato stand.

The makers of a super-hard smartphone glass made partially of synthetic diamonds took part in an FBI sting on Huawei, according to a new Bloomberg report. The operation apparently took place at a Prime Burger joint in Vegas during CES last month, while a Businessweek reporter watched from a nearby gelato stand. The embattled Chinese company had ordered samples of the "Miraj Diamond Glass" from US startup Akhan Semiconductor in 2017, only to return them badly damaged. Suspecting Huawei of intellectual property theft, Akhan's founder Adam Khan reportedly contacted the FBI, which drafted him and COO Carl Shurboff to take part in its Huawei investigations.

Email and text communications between the startup and a Huawei engineer were reportedly forwarded to the agency as part of the inquiry. A phone call between Khan, Shurboff and the same Huawei representative was also allegedly tapped on December 10th. Then came the Vegas sting, with the same Huawei staffer in attendance along with her colleague, Jennifer Lo, a senior official with the company in Santa Clara, California. Unbeknown to them, Khan and Shurboff were allegedly taping the entire get-together.

Throughout the meeting, the Huawei reps denied that it had violated US export laws, including provisions of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), which control the export of materials with defense applications -- diamond being one of those materials. They also "claimed ignorance" when it came to the damaged samples.

The FBI also raided a Huawei lab in San Diego. This particular investigation has not resulted in any charges yet.

Also at CNBC.

Related: Arrest of Huawei Executive Causing Discontent Among Chinese Elites
China Arrests Former Canadian Diplomat; Chinese Companies Ban iPhones, Require Huawei Phones
Huawei Under Investigation by DoJ for Theft of T-Mobile Trade Secrets


Original Submission

The US Cannot Crush us, Says Huawei Founder 14 comments

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47274679

The founder of Huawei has said there is "no way the US can crush" the company, in an exclusive interview with the BBC.

Ren Zhengfei described the arrest of his daughter Meng Wanzhou, the company's chief financial officer, as politically motivated.

The US is pursuing criminal charges against Huawei and Ms Meng, including money laundering, bank fraud and stealing trade secrets.

Huawei denies any wrongdoing.

Also at CNBC.


Original Submission

Huawei Open to Selling 5G Modems to Apple 12 comments

Huawei is 'open' to selling 5G chips to Apple for iPhones, marking a big shift in strategy

Huawei is "open" to selling high-speed 5G chips and other silicon to rival smartphone maker Apple, marking a significant shift in the Chinese tech giant's thinking toward its own intellectual property.

The world's largest networking equipment maker has been in the consumer market for a relatively short amount of time with its own-brand smartphones, but it has quickly risen to become the third-largest vendor by market share.

Huawei started by selling phones at low prices but in recent years has shifted focus to increase its market share in the high end of the market, battling Apple and Samsung. As part of that move, Huawei has developed its own chips, including a modem to give smartphones 5G connectivity, and a processor to power its devices. 5G is next-generation mobile internet, which delivers data at very high speeds.

So far, those pieces of technology have been used only in Huawei's devices. That could change. In an interview with CNBC that aired Monday, Huawei founder and CEO Ren Zhengfei said the company would consider selling its 5G chips to Apple. "We are open to Apple in this regard," Ren said. The CEO spoke in Mandarin, which was translated into English by an official translator.

Apple products (e.g. new iPhones) are likely to use 5G modems from Intel, although they won't be ready until 2020. Huawei has been shunned by U.S. companies due to warnings and pressure from the U.S. government claiming that Huawei products enable Chinese espionage. There has even been discussion of the U.S. government developing a 5G network free of Chinese influence. Given that there aren't many places in the country where you can get a "5G" connection yet, is there any point to this offer?

Related:


Original Submission

U.S. Chief Technology Officer Urges Europe to Take a Stand Against Huawei 8 comments

US Official Criticizes Europe For Letting Huawei 5G Equipment Inside Borders

At this point, the United States' open opposition to Europe adopting Chinese tech giant Huawei's 5G equipment is well known. The US considers Huawei's legal commitments to the Chinese government and potential backdoors in the company's 5G equipment a national security threat. Subsequently, the country wants its European allies to forego 5G networking gear from Huawei at the cost of being left behind in the race to adopt the next-generation networking standard.

[...] Speaking at a tech conference in Lisbon, Portugal, US Chief Technology Officer Michael Kratsios urged Europe to follow America's lead in dealing with Huawei. Mr. Kratsios asked Europe to ''take a stand'' against the Chinese company who the US believes can be forced by China's intelligence to hand over sensitive data at any point in time.

Mr. Kratsios' statements come at a time when Europe is welcoming Huawei with open arms. Earlier this week Hungary announced that it would allow Deutsche Telekom and Vodafone to work with Huawei in introducing 5G services in the country. The decision marked another European country that's unfazed by the US' concerns. Germany, UK and other European countries have already laid down frameworks for letting Huawei's equipment broadcast 5G within their borders, but recent statements by the German foreign minister Heiko Maas suggest that Germany might be having second-thoughts about fully trusting Huawei.

Previously: Washington Asks Allies to Drop Huawei
Germany and the EU Likely to Embrace Huawei, Rebuff the U.S.
EU to Drop Threat of Huawei Ban but Wants 5G Risks Monitored


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by opinionated_science on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:24PM (3 children)

    by opinionated_science (4031) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:24PM (#817439)

    give a few years, there'll be a new scandal and we can all go "Hah Hah!" (Nelson voice!)

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:54PM (1 child)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:54PM (#817460) Journal

      New scandal in which country?

      If you mean new scandal in the US, I'm not sure at this point what could seem scandalous any more.

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
      • (Score: 1) by EJ on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:26PM

        by EJ (2452) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:26PM (#817611)

        I think in the EU when China pwns them.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:56PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:56PM (#818041)

      With your top quality long-term memoryspan you'll have forgotten it in a few years. My country chose Ericsson. I'm betting it will be more expensive and not more secure. I think the reasonable approach is the one of Germany. Tighten security requirements and procedures instead of operating on rumours.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:32PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:32PM (#817443)

    That's because the US cannot offer reasonable alternatives, because our best techs are spying "social media networks" and shiny overpriced i-phones. All that fancy claims about SV being the bastion of innovation, that's a long-gone history.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:37PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:37PM (#817504)

      That's because the US cannot offer reasonable alternatives, because our best techs are spying "social media networks" and shiny overpriced i-phones.

      Yeah, and let's not forget which country makes most of the components of those iPhones...

      Giant Hint: Not the US
      Even bigger hint: The same country Huawei is located in.
      Need another hint? The name starts with C and continues with H, I, N, and ends in A.

      The majority of my fellow Americans today appear to be complete provincial idiots, and while the UK with Brexit is doing its best to emulate us, when it comes to dumbshittery we are the Best in the World. Number One Baby! Come on, say it with me: USA! USA! USA!

      (and yes, I am an American, with the misfortune of having my eyes open and my fingers not jammed firmly in my ears)

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:36PM (#817532)

        I've tried plugging my fingers into my ears. It made no difference to the massive volume of stupidity. It just made my ears hurt more.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:38PM (2 children)

    by Snotnose (1623) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:38PM (#817450)

    The NSA has been caught with their hands in Cisco routers. The Chinese have been accused but not caught.

    --
    In this month in 1958 Project Snot was started. This has upset many people and is widely considered a bad idea.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:45PM (1 child)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:45PM (#817454) Journal

      Trump's war on Huawei is because China would implant spyware into routers and infrastructure equipment.

      If the administration is assumed to be correct, then it is an admission of yet one more thing that China is better at.

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
      • (Score: 2) by legont on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:00AM

        by legont (4179) on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:00AM (#817623)

        Man, you should start using "Trump war on Russia" meme or risk look outdated.

        --
        "Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
  • (Score: 4, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:42PM (32 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:42PM (#817452) Journal

    At some point might the US be ostracized by the other 96% of the world's population?

    (Yes, I wrote ostracized, not oversized. I know Americans like everything big.)

    World population: about 7.53 Billion.

    US population: about 327 Million.

    Using a sophisticated mathematical technique: Rest of the world is 95.66%. I only say this because I've had someone say [citation needed] before (on green site). Use Google and get help from elementary school math teacher please.

    --
    If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:47PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:47PM (#817456) Journal

      Cute. I was wavering between "funny" and "informative". I went with the more serious mod. :^)

      --
      We've finally beat Medicare! - Houseplant in Chief
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:21PM (30 children)

      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:21PM (#817474)

      My country will not ostracize the US, presumably because we're scared of what you might do to us, as we're small and harmless.

      Germany, however might have had enough.

      The US spied on the German Chancellor's phone communications.

      Then you elected a President that seems to think NATO is past it's use by date.

      Then you sent them an ambassador who is interfering in local politics.

      You're not doing yourselves any favours with your friends.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:31PM (23 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:31PM (#817478)

        We know, but as you can see from many of the more prolific commenters here the US was hijacked by trolls. There is little we can do but wait to see if we can survive this shit storm, and if we do THEN we find out if we can pass some sane legislation.

        The big problem is so many US citizens have been brainwashed into blind faith, and it is SO BAD that we have many people actively supporting Trump despite the mountain of evidence that he is a horrible person in just about every single way. As we see on here facts don't matter, just the blind faith.

        We shall see how it shakes out, but if we don't get election reform at the minimum then the US is fucked.

        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:44PM (19 children)

          by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:44PM (#817480) Journal

          How does "election reform" work if nobody is elected to implement it?

          And, if such "heroic" people do get elected, why would you need "election reform"?

          Election reform is done in the voting booth, by the voter.

          --
          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:10PM (10 children)

            by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:10PM (#817490)

            How does "election reform" work if nobody is elected to implement it?

            I don't really know is the short answer. I have never voted for any candidate who campaigned on an election reform platform, but despite that I have lived through several minor and major reforms of the electoral system in my country.

            It is always something that is debated vigorously, and implemented slowly but it happens. Ditching first-past the-post voting is the big one in my lifetime. The only people who think that was a mistake are a few very wealthy powerful business people who now have less influence than they had.

            It strikes me as odd that the US set up an electoral system in the 18th century, then decided it was perfect and the founding fathers could do no wrong, so it cannot be reformed.

            Follow the money I suppose.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:26PM

              by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:26PM (#817495) Journal

              It strikes me as odd that the US set up an electoral system

              Rich people afraid that a true direct democracy would result in the voters voting to narrow the wealth gap.

              --
              If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
            • (Score: 1, Disagree) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:33PM (8 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:33PM (#817501) Journal

              In the US the problem is the voter. Look at the class of people they nominate on the ballot and in the primaries. The system itself is still an accurate reflection of voter mentality. And every issue can be traced back to them. It costs the voter nothing to turn their back on corruption, except it might cost them their little piece of it. Lose that big fat defense contract, and he's out of a job at the cruise missile factory.

              Yes, always follow the money. More than that, follow the desire.

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:41PM (7 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:41PM (#817539)

                Ranked choice voting fixes that, but you just keep repeating "the problem is with the voter." That accusation fixes nothing and just adds to the apathy. I'm starting to think you push that message for alternative reasons.

                • (Score: 0, Troll) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:44PM (6 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:44PM (#817542) Journal

                  Ranked choice voting fixes that

                  You fail to explain how. The voters are responsible for who gets on the ballot and who wins. You're just blame passing.

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:00PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:00PM (#817562)

                    I will assume the that the person who modded this troll is trying to suppress the truth about himself. Typical knee-jerk response. And of course, the partisanship (tribalism) kicks in.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:24PM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:24PM (#817583)

                    And you just fail. badly.

                    Don't worry, was not I who troll modded you. Feel free to use your favorite search engine to find out about ranked choice voting, if you are incapable of seeing how that would help the current situation in the US then you've got bigger, more personal, problems.

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:34PM (1 child)

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:34PM (#817590) Journal

                      show where it already has helped. Show me how more qualified people get on the ballot. It can be done just as easily in the American system if people take the initiative to become informed and act on the information available to them right now. It only requires the votes, nothing more.

                      The problem is purely psychological. Ranked choice will not make the voter act any more rational than they do now. You just break the tribes into smaller antagonistic groups.

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                      • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:08AM

                        by exaeta (6957) on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:08AM (#817627) Homepage Journal
                        Some variant of "eliminate most hated candiate" would work best imo. Candidate A: We should take all money from the rich and implement socialism! Candidate B: We should give big corporations the power to arrest people who break contracts! Candidate C: We should strive for economic balance between freedom and fairness. Votes: Candidate B: 44% Candidate A: 42% Candidate C: 14% Candidate C eliminated. Candidate A: 52% Candidate B: 48% Eliminate most hated candidate first: Candidate B eliminated. Candidate C wins. Candidate C could win because both sides strongly preferred candidate C to the other candidate. So we should strive for a system that favors moderates like this.
                        --
                        The Government is a Bird
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:13PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:13PM (#817604)

                    S/N - the forum to get an education.
                    Homework [wikipedia.org]

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:53PM

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:53PM (#817617) Journal

                      This does not mean that preferential voting is intrinsically better... There is, accordingly, no consensus among academics or public servants as to the best electoral system.

                      Thank you! That was very helpful!

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:05PM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:05PM (#817517)

            And, if such "heroic" people do get elected, why would you need "election reform"?

            They would be heroic, no quotes needed. Very real possibility of having their lives ruined / ended over election reform.

            Just because one election might favor the actual people's choice does not mean election reform is not needed. You keep repeating that point about the voters but that is a total lie. Voters can't vote for national election reform, only for their representatives. You are placing the blame on the people stuck in a broken system, yes indeededly doodley we NEED election reform so it isn't a constant battle of "money vs. will of the people".

            • (Score: 0, Troll) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:41PM (6 children)

              by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:41PM (#817538) Journal

              You are placing the blame on the people stuck in a broken system

              They broke it themselves. They are still free to nominate and elect whoever they want. It's nobody else's fault if they choose to be strung along by mass media propaganda.

              --
              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:03PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:03PM (#817564)

                All these Troll mods! Looks like a sensitive nerve was struck! Too bad the reaction is always the same. This is why Trump/Clinton wins every time. They reflect their fan base perfectly, and they are hard at work here keeping the charade running.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:18PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:18PM (#817606)

                  Well wasn't from myself, the AC fust replied to, so most likely fust's comment was modded troll because it adds nothing new and just repeats the same opinion.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:16PM (3 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:16PM (#817605)

                Blame the victim won't get you sympathy.
                If you can explain your point without deprecation, you may get past trollmoding.

                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:57PM (2 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:57PM (#817620) Journal

                  Oh please! Show me where I blame the "victim". In fact explain to me who is the "victim". It's worth the Troll mod to tell you that you're full of shit, and are just whining at this point.

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:34AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:34AM (#817654)

                    I see you're not after a normal discussion, you just feel the need to purge your frustrations no matter if they pertain to TFA, S/N or just your SO experiencing a headache (a.k.a. not-enough-sex syndrome).

                    I'd suggest you go fuck yourself and stop wasting our time.

                    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday March 21 2019, @02:41AM

                      by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday March 21 2019, @02:41AM (#817673) Journal

                      Eh, whatever... You're just lashing out with nothing to say.

                      --
                      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:08PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:08PM (#817567)

          We have a mountain of evidence Trump is doing a great job too. Economy, unemployment numbers, stopping our precipitous slide into globalization, pushback against open borders, dropping severely bad trade deals, and hundreds of other things.

          Try to see that you are a victim of brainwashing when you don't recall any of these things but only think he is horrible and his supporters only support horrible things.

          "Election reform" pushed by Democrats seems to include 16 year olds voting, illegal immigrants voting, and destruction of states rights via Electoral College, all for Democrats to take and hold power, that is exactly what we don't need!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:52PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:52PM (#817616)

            We have a mountain of evidence Trump is doing a great job too.

            You call that mountain Dew?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @05:18PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @05:18PM (#818054)

            dropping severely bad trade deals

            Have you seen the PDF from the EU on toll sanctions against the US, that was made entirely because of Mr. Trump?

            http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/may/tradoc_156909.pdf [europa.eu]

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:29PM (1 child)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:29PM (#817498) Journal

        Germany, however might have had enough.

        I remember a week or so ago reading a news article where Angela Merkel said something like, . . . it had become quite apparent in the EU that the US no longer cares about Europeans or about what they think. (not an exact quote)

        If she were so bold as to be quoted saying something like that, there is probably a deeper resentment already in place.

        --
        If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:04AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:04AM (#817648)

          You think so? I'm a EU citizen who not only knows quite a lot of Germans, but also works together with them.

          The current situation is increasingly that Germans see the US as an (unfriendly) occupation power.

          Most Germans that I spoke want to actively get rid of all US military personal on their soil.

          Consider that Germany is the heart and soul of the EU's economy.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:21PM (1 child)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:21PM (#817526) Journal

        The US spied on the German Chancellor's phone communications.

        Conversely, Germany has sloppy security practices. They wouldn't have even known, if US intelligence hadn't leaked it far and wide.

        So how are they going to hear about Chinese spying?

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:20PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:20PM (#817607) Journal

          So how are they going to hear about Chinese spying?

          Simple, from leaked US intelligence. (grin)

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:58PM (1 child)

        by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:58PM (#817622)

        > You're not doing yourselves any favours with your friends.

        I highlighted where the confusion lies.
        The US is always acting first in its own best interest (that's normal).
        The rest of the world is divided into enemies, potential enemies, harmless hostiles, harmless neutrals, obedients, customers, unofficial colonies and protectorates, specific suppliers, places to hide your cash, and Israel.

        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:30AM

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:30AM (#817636)

          The US is always acting first in its own best interest (that's normal).

          That's normal for the US. Other countries have divided the world into some of the categories you listed there, but they also have friends, and family too.

          As long as the US can continue to spend $800 billion every year on its military, not really having friends is not a problem. when the day comes that you cannot fight two or three wars at once you might find friends are a handy thing to have.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:45PM (5 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:45PM (#817453) Journal

    It's really beginning to look like this battle is a lost cause. I started out kinda neutral, but I'm beginning to slide toward Huawei's side. Is their gear compromised, or is it not?

    If, A, it is compromised, then the US needs to publicize the fact, so that everyone can decide, based on facts.

    B, it is NOT compromised, then the US is definitely losing the fight. Then it moves from a security issue, into the economics arena - and no one outside the US is going to pay extra just to make the US "feel good".

    Who is leading the charge in this fight, anyway? Dems? Repubs? A few select corporations in competition with Huawei?

    Clearest sign yet of diminished U.S. influence?

    Yeah, it's pretty clear. The US no longer issues edicts that all the "free world" obeys.

    --
    We've finally beat Medicare! - Houseplant in Chief
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:49PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:49PM (#817458) Journal

      If, A, it is compromised, then the US needs to publicize the fact

      That sounds too much like something resembling work.
      1. The US would have to acquire or borrow the equipment to study
      2. The NSA would need to have some kind of capability to reverse engineer and disassemble code. (yes I'm snickering)

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @10:16AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @10:16AM (#817847)

        The NSA would need to have some kind of capability to reverse engineer and disassemble code. (yes I'm snickering)

        Huawei is one of our major partners. One of most important partners. We are 100% open source company. So not sure about this need to reverse engineer.

        Huawei just invested into making better things at cheaper prices. Now they have the know how. The technology is not magic beans. It's in books and journals. If you can read, you can understand and then even improve on it. And Chinese are not idiots and they invest in their education system because they care in a little longer terms than next quarter or next election cycle.

        • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Friday March 22 2019, @09:52PM

          by exaeta (6957) on Friday March 22 2019, @09:52PM (#818600) Homepage Journal

          This is the real reason the government is trying to push out Huawei. Follow the money. Corporate money in the area thinks that open source = bad. After all, how can you make money if the tech is free?

          So the corporations lobby behind closed doors and we get this result.

          I would literally bet my left arm on this being the truth behind the whole China spying bullshit.

          --
          The Government is a Bird
    • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:48PM

      by fustakrakich (6150) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:48PM (#817544) Journal

      Who is leading the charge in this fight, anyway? Dems? Repubs? A few select corporations in competition with Huawei?

      jaaa

      --
      La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 24 2019, @07:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 24 2019, @07:27PM (#819121)

      Since Huawei is from a 'Communist' country... How about open sourcing the firmware? :)

      Make the in-device signing keys writeable by the end users on a replaceable chip sealed inside the device casing. Provide all the firmware and line by line build instructions to verify the unmodified firmware matches official releases. Auditing of the firmware is now internationally scrutinizable, and everybody is on level ground. If anyone keeps exploits to themselves they run the risk of someone else discovering them, or that they patched them and using that to scrutinize or target them.

      Furthermore if Huawei negotiated correctly they could get blanket patent protection for anything that might be infringing in their codebase, allowing them to develop their code in public with a patent grant any future company would either have to match by opening their own codebase, or lose because they weren't first to suggest it and have of being an also-ran to the suggestion.

      This would put huawei's firmware directly in the public spotlight for better or worse, but could help them dominate and ruin Cisco, Juniper, and company whose code is not just proprietary but has also been shown time and again to have US or Israeli developed backdoors placed in it.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:47PM

    by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @06:47PM (#817457) Journal

    Behind the scenes stuff we're never exposed to: Were there actual proof, the NSA would be ordered to share it with the CIA, and the CIA would be given clearance to give that proof to BND. BND would tell Merkel. Merkel would then get on board.

    My guess is that the US is still playing Trade War, and pushing so hard against loss of intellectual property secret loss that Huawei will no longer play ball with U.S. governmental code reviews. But Germany, not trying to play Trade War, is under no such restriction with them and can still do code review if that is a necessary facet, so they have no reason to distrust them.

    --
    This sig for rent.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Subsentient on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:50PM (31 children)

    by Subsentient (1111) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @07:50PM (#817482) Homepage Journal

    People here seem to think the US is the eternal bad guy. Wake the fuck up. The US isn't murdering dissidents and selling their organs to rich oligarchs, like the Chinese government is. Yes, the US has some serious snooping stuff, a long history of imperial behavior, and is guilty of many very serious crimes, but when you compare them to China, they're Mister Fucking Rogers.

    Huawei is very closely integrated with the Chinese communist party in a way that's uncommon even for other Chinese megacorps. That's reason enough to dump gas on them and toss in a lit match.

    I do think Huawei is doing some nasty shit, and I know they're planning more.

    Don't support that company. You (nearly directly) support the Chinese communist party when you do.

    One of these days, we're going to find they were skimming political secrets off European nations and sending them back to China, and when that day comes, I'm not going to laugh, I'm going to angrily say "well I fucking warned you faggots".

    --
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:09PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:09PM (#817489)

      I think a healthy dose of protectionism here is warranted. It's kind of hard to do anyhting about it when the shit is in the pants. The German idea of somehow being able to monitor and control the whole infrastucture is complete bullshit.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:18PM (15 children)

      by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:18PM (#817492)

      The US isn't murdering dissidents...

      Yes, you do. Drone strikes (among other acts of violence). Hundreds dead, including wedding parties. You don't sell their organs to rich people though, I'll give you that.

      but when you compare them to China, they're Mister Fucking Rogers.

      How so? Is China at war? How many wars has the US started in the last 20 years or so?

      I do think Huawei is doing some nasty shit, and I know they're planning more.

      Citation Required. That's what the Germans are asking for. You remember the Germans? They're the country whose Chancellor had her phone bugged by the NSA.

      One of these days, we're going to find they were skimming political secrets off European nations...

      See point above.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:23PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:23PM (#817527)

        Yeah, those nice "reeducation camps" they made for the Uighurs are just so comparable to what the US does today. Slavery, genocide, cultural annihilation - we're all guilty so let's just ignore it.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:55PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @11:55PM (#817619)

          Yeah, those nice "reeducation camps" they made for the Uighurs are just so comparable to what the US does today.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]

          Hint: the correct mod is "Touche"

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:41PM

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:41PM (#818028) Journal

            Re-education camps (Uyghur: قايتا تەربىيەلەش لاگېرلىرى‎; Chinese: 再教育营) is a title given to internment camps operated by the People's Republic of China Xinjiang autonomous region's government since 2014.[2] They have unprecedentedly intensified since a hardline party secretary, Chen Quanguo, took charge of the region in August 2016. These camps are operated secretly and outside of the legal system; many Uyghurs have been locked up without any trial or charges being levied.[3][4][1] Local authorities are reportedly holding hundreds of thousands of Uyghurs and Muslims from other ethnic minorities in these camps, claiming the detentions are a bid to counter extremism and terrorism.[5][6][7][8][9]

            It is estimated that the Chinese authorities may have detained hundreds of thousands to millions of Uyghurs,[10][11][12] Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Hui (Muslims) and other ethnic Turkic Muslims,[13][14][15][16] Christians,[17][18][19] and also some foreign citizens[20] such as Kazakhstanis[21][22][23] to be kept in these secretive internment camps throughout the region.[24] The United Nations[25][26][27] and many international media reports have said from 1 to 3 million people are being held in such "re-education camps" in this region.[28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38].

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps [wikipedia.org]

            Yeah, I would say 100% totally dissimilar. Please note, these re-education camps aren't prisons. The people were rounded up to be "re-educated". What that means exactly, varies greatly. Usually it's some form of brainwashing, forced acceptance of culture, or worse kinds of things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing [wikipedia.org] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_camp [wikipedia.org]

            Now think, if the United States, literally rounded up hundreds of thousands of Muslims that were living the USA and transported them to Guantanamo for "re-education". As opposed to the relatively few by comparison that were sent there.

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:04AM (1 child)

          by bob_super (1357) on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:04AM (#817626)

          Yeah, those nice "reeducation camps" they made for the Uighurs are just so comparable to what the US does today. Slavery, genocide, cultural annihilation - we're all guilty so let's just ignore it.

          Highlighted a pretty important word, I think. How long ago did the US stop officially doing all these things ?

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:32PM

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:32PM (#818023) Journal

            Personally, I would say, the Last Indian War was the final vestiges of that. That was nearly 100 years ago. China, never learned a thing. Well, they did learn to hide things a bit better or even in plain sight (Social Credit System).

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
      • (Score: 2, Troll) by Freeman on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:29PM (9 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:29PM (#817529) Journal

        The USA has started 0 wars in the last 20 years. Most of the wars in the last 100 hundred were wars that we were asked to fight or were dragged into. The so-called "War on Terror" is a series of reactionary wars that have been fought or are being fought due to countries unwillingness or inability to control their own extremist factions. When your country is anti-USA and doesn't mind letting extremist factions bomb the United States, you're asking for trouble.

        Was / is the "War on Terror" an over reaction? Perhaps, but it was most definitely reactionary. Would attacks have escalated, if we didn't respond with as much force as we did? There's no telling for sure, but there had to be some sort of consequence for the action taken against the USA.

        China is/was a part of the so-called "War on terror" as are a number of other countries.

        As far as the whole Huawei thing goes. Do you want to trust a country that disappears it's own citizens for "re-education", because their Social Credit score wasn't up to snuff? That's what Germany and the EU will be doing, if they trust Huawei. Assuming they're doing it, because the NSA tapped Merkel's phone. We have a really nice saying for that. "Cutting off your nose to spite your face."

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:54PM (2 children)

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:54PM (#817555) Journal

          The USA has started 0 wars in the last 20 years.

          GWB's invasion of Iraq was absolutely the US starting a war, based on manufactured "evidence".

          Note that is in stark contrast to the situation when George Bush senior went to Iraq; back then the Iraq actually had invaded another country.

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:08AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @12:08AM (#817628)

            And they got away with it because "... there had to be some sort of consequence for the action taken against the USA."

            • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday March 21 2019, @07:00AM

              by maxwell demon (1608) on Thursday March 21 2019, @07:00AM (#817795) Journal

              Yeah, like if John does something bad, and then Bill gets punished because “there had to be some consequence for the bad action”.

              --
              The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:04PM (3 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:04PM (#817565)

          Most of the wars in the last 100 hundred were wars that we were asked to fight or were dragged into.

          Here's a list of wars the US fought during the 20th century. [wikipedia.org] Could you point out the majority that you were asked to fight? I know several of them were just your military murdering your own native people so maybe those don't count, but I can only count two where the US did not provide it's own casus belli.

          As far as the "War on Terror" goes, a bunch of Saudis crashed planes into the World Trade Center, and so you invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Your president actually lied about the reasons for going to war too.

          Can you provide some evidence the Chinese disappear citizens because of their social credit score? The only time I've ever heard of that happening it was a claim made on the Internet without any evidence provided.

          Why would Germany trust China? I'm sure they don't. They also don't trust the US, and they have evidence why that's a sound policy.

          • (Score: 1, Troll) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @03:44PM (1 child)

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @03:44PM (#817992) Journal

            The first 6 wars on that list were, before 1919 (100 years ago).

            Definitely started by the USA:
            Occupation of Haiti
            Occupation of the Dominican Republic
            Bay of Pigs Invasion

            Definitely not started by the USA:
            World War I
            Russian Civil War
            World War II
            Korean War
            Laotian Civil War
            Lebanon Crisis
            Simba rebellion, Operation Dragon Rouge
            Vietnam War
            Communist insurgency in Thailand
            Korean DMZ Conflict
            Dominican Civil War
            Insurgency in Bolivia
            Cambodian Civil War
            War in South Zaire
            Gulf of Sidra encounter
            Lebanese Civil War
            Action in the Gulf of Sidra
            Tanker War
            Tobruk encounter
            Gulf War
            Iraqi No-Fly Zone Enforcement Operations
            First Intervention in the Somali Civil War
            Bosnian War
            Kosovo War
            War in Somalia
            Operation Ocean Shield
            American-led intervention in Libya
            Operation Observant Compass
            American-led intervention in Iraq
            American-led intervention in Syria
            Yemeni Civil War
            American intervention in Libya

            Debatable:
            Last Indian Uprising (Not started directly by the USA, but not like we didn't have it coming.)
            Invasion of Grenada
            Bombing of Libya
            Invasion of Panama
            Operation Infinite Reach
            Intervention in Haiti
            War in Afghanistan
            Iraq War
            War in North-West Pakistan

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday March 21 2019, @06:51PM

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday March 21 2019, @06:51PM (#818109)

              You do have a point about many of those. It's a bit hard to pin World War I on the US*, but Vietnam? Come on now, it's known in Vietnam as the American War for good reason.

              Have a read about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Wikipedia can help you:

              but eventually became very controversial with widespread belief that at least one, and possibly both incidents were false, and possibly deliberately so.

              The US lied in an effort to escalate the war. Spoiler: This was bad for everyone involved.

              *As any fule no, WWI was started because Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @03:59PM

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @03:59PM (#818003) Journal

            Regarding China's Social Credit System:

            In March 2018, Reuters reported that restrictions on citizens and businesses with low Social Credit ratings, and thus low trustworthiness, would come into effect on May 1st.[27][28] By May 2018, several million flight and high-speed train trips had been denied to people who had been blacklisted.[11]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System [wikipedia.org]

            Regarding disappearing people:

            “She’s like collateral damage,” Hung Huang, a critic and publisher, said.

            Ms. Fan’s disappearance appears to be related to a government investigation into tax evasion in the film business, but she has not been charged with any crime, and no officials have confirmed that she is even under investigation. Few who know her, or the industry, believe it is simply a matter of paying taxes, though. And the damage to her reputation — and perhaps her livelihood — has already been done.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/13/world/asia/china-fan-bingbing.html [nytimes.com]

            While, perhaps, there's not a 1:1 correlation between her Social Credit Score and her disappearance, I wouldn't presume that to be true. When it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's most probably an enhanced robot chicken of doom?

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:47AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:47AM (#817655)

          Do you want to trust a country that disappears it's own citizens for "re-education", because their Social Credit score wasn't up to snuff?

          What's the choice? Some other country that:
          - (uses tracking functionality to) drop missiles from drones?
          - organizes extraordinary renditions?
          - spies on all the internet traffic originated in other countries on a "that's our mission, bitch, wadda you expect" basis? Including actively spying on the government of allied countries?

          Yes, is indeed a matter of choice. Can you blame the ones that make a choice that's not the one you'd like?

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:24PM

            by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:24PM (#818015) Journal

            Choice I like or not, it's insanity to trust an even more backwards country to behave better. I freely admit the United States has it's own issues and some of those are pushed onto other countries as well. China, for one has things like "The Great Firewall" and the "Social Credit System", to keep their population in check. Heaven forbid, that someone might hear about Freedom of Speech, Democracy, or Winnie the Pooh. China is also responsible for the disaster that is North Korea. The shear amount of human rights violations happening in North Korea, should have been taken care of by China. They wanted the USA out, and didn't want them anywhere near their borders, fine. Turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed against North Korea's own population is inhuman.

            About 76% to 84% of defectors interviewed in China or South Korea came from the Northeastern provinces bordering China. If the defectors are caught in China, they are repatriated back to North Korea where they often face harsh interrogations and years of punishment, or even death in political prison camps such as the Pukch'ang camp, or reeducation camps such as the Chungsan camp or Chongori camp.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors [wikipedia.org]

            --
            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
    • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:33PM (3 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:33PM (#817500) Journal

      I'm not going to laugh, I'm going to angrily say "well I fucking warned you faggots".

      I think a lot of hetrosexual people need to be warned as well. By spreading the warning further and wider you might avoid the situation where you need to say I told you so.

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
      • (Score: 2) by Subsentient on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:50PM (2 children)

        by Subsentient (1111) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:50PM (#817549) Homepage Journal

        Well, I'm bi, so. I'm a personal believer in that the word "faggot" should be re-tooled as a more generalized insult.

        --
        "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:27PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20 2019, @10:27PM (#817586)

          Yeah! "A dumb piece of wood destined to be burned." About sums up the intentions behind the use of "faggot".

          Sadly the cultural momentum is behind it being slang for homosexuals, so might as well just give it up.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:53AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:53AM (#817659) Journal

          Or... invent another word and let the original for its older meanings?

          Like: bassoon [wikipedia.org] or a meatball and offal dish [wikipedia.org]?

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:03PM (2 children)

      by bradley13 (3053) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:03PM (#817516) Homepage Journal

      "People here seem to think the US is the eternal bad guy."

      How many governments did the US topple in the Middle East? The US funded and armed the rebels who became ISIS, as a side effect of trying to topple the government in Syria. Millions of deaths, tens of millions of lives destroyed, trillions of dollars in damages. If the UN had teeth, the US would be impoverished by the reparations. I mention that in detail, but the US has played similar stupid games throughout Africa, Central and South America.

      Domestically, you are absolutely right that the US government isn't as bad as some other places. That's no credit to the politicians - as far as I can tell, it's entirely due to that somewhat tattered Constitution, which the politicians are doing their best to destroy, bit by bit. Give it another decade or two, and you'll be in the running, right along with China and Russia. Just ask Martha Stewart, to name one prominent example. Ask the people at Ruby Ridge. Ask the people killed by SWAT attacks and no-knock warrants, or those impoverished by asset forfeiture.

      Nothing against Americans as individuals - it's your government that's the problem.

      --
      Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Subsentient on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:47PM

        by Subsentient (1111) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:47PM (#817543) Homepage Journal

        The US has toppled many governments, often unjustly. You forgot South America, too. That said, do you really think that China would be setting up a better world order if they had the same influence? I think it's obvious from their track record of how they treat their OWN people that they would be 100x worse, and everyone would pine for the days of the US being the sole true superpower. Look up the African debt traps, how they bugged a parliament building they were contracted to build there, their support of Venezuela's regime, etc.

        --
        "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:49PM

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:49PM (#817548) Journal

        Nothing against Americans as individuals - it's your government that's the problem.

        If you believe 'Lesterland' (google it), then you mean . . . the rich people are the problem.

        --
        If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
    • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:49PM (6 children)

      by exaeta (6957) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:49PM (#817546) Homepage Journal

      Oh, you think we should complain more about China than the USA?

      I mean, sure, China's government is worse, but since I live in the USA, it's obviously a more pressing concern for me when the US government misbehaves.

      Chinese culture is also more accepting of the Chinese government than American culture is of the US government.

      Furthermore, on a more fundamental note, whatever bad stuff Chinese do doesn't give the U.S. the moral high ground here. The US government is playing the bully because it doesn't want China to get ahead in technology. Thag's wrong, no matter how you look at it. Plus the US is bullying China into accepting the US's draconian and tyranical IP laws.

      Oh and the US government murders people all the time. It's called drug laws and cop shootings of innocent civilians. Free speech really is the only moral high ground the US has, and even then we aren't so great at it these days.

      --
      The Government is a Bird
      • (Score: 1, Troll) by Freeman on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:50PM (5 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:50PM (#818035) Journal

        Embracing China, because the USA isn't behaving nicely is insanity. You may as well embrace a cactus, because you have a splinter. Things can't be any worse, because that splinter hurts so bad.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @10:11PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @10:11PM (#818191)

          So you say the US is the lesser of two evils? I'd walk away from all the cacti, open my top drawer and get myself a pincet. Then stop playing with cacti.

          • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Friday March 22 2019, @12:01AM

            by exaeta (6957) on Friday March 22 2019, @12:01AM (#818226) Homepage Journal
            I'd say it doesn't work like that. Buying from China, using Huwei products, is not "evil". There is no justification to harm the American people and technology progress in general because of political squabbles. America needs competition, this is an attempt to shut down competition. So yes, anti-competitive behavior is the greater of the two evils, all things considered.
            --
            The Government is a Bird
        • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Friday March 22 2019, @12:11AM (2 children)

          by exaeta (6957) on Friday March 22 2019, @12:11AM (#818229) Homepage Journal

          Buying a phone from Huwei is not exactly embracing China's practices.

          Not buying a phone because it comes from China is a type of guilt by association, which is against normal human morals. There is no evidence, I repeat, NO credible evidence (unless you count US governments self serving assertions without any proof), that Huwei has done anything wrong. Boycotting Huwei hurts the American citizen for meager if any political gain against the Chinese government. The actions of the U.S. will harm both the average American citizen and the company Huwei, but the Chinese government will only suffer minor incidental harm. Though Huwei might spy on Americans for China, given how much spying the NSA does on American citizens, that's not really a legitimate concern and is actually completely hypocritical.

          I am more concerned the move to exclude Huwei is because the NSA doesn't have backdoors in their products than that Huwei would spy on U.S. citizens. There is ZERO credible evidence of Huwei spying and LOTS of evidence of NSA spying in products like Cisco and AT&T, etc.

          So most likely, this is just a ploy to exclude any products that don't give NSA backdoors from the U.S. market and therefore is probably unconstitutional at that in addition to economically stupid.

          --
          The Government is a Bird
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DrkShadow on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:00PM (5 children)

    by DrkShadow (1404) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:00PM (#817487)

    "There are two things I don't believe in," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Tuesday, referring to Germany's standoff with the United States over Huawei's inclusion in her country's 5G rollout. "First, to discuss these very sensitive security questions publicly[.]

    That's a very, very disturbing line.

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:35PM (3 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @08:35PM (#817502) Journal

      Maybe Twitter is a better venue where important security questions should be discussed.

      --
      If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Freeman on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:36PM (2 children)

        by Freeman (732) on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:36PM (#817533) Journal

        With regards to publicly funded infrastructure. Yes, discussion on Twitter would be preferred to meetings behind closed doors. While citizens and countries may want certain kinds of things discussed behind closed doors. This is not one of them, except for those who want power.

        --
        Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:53PM (1 child)

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 20 2019, @09:53PM (#817553) Journal

          I would be interested to know why the details of sensitive security questions shouldn't be discussed privately?

          The results should be published.

          I'm assuming we're talking about security issues that rise to national importance. Maybe even existential. It seems that a lot of the detailed policy is formed behind the curtain. But within the government, just not wide open to the public, and our enemies who want to know about our sensitive security questions.

          --
          If we tell conservatives that the climate is transitioning, they will work to stop it.
          • (Score: 2) by exaeta on Friday March 22 2019, @12:25AM

            by exaeta (6957) on Friday March 22 2019, @12:25AM (#818233) Homepage Journal

            The U.S. has no enemies, except maybe North Korea.

            Nobody wants to destroy the U.S., except maybe some crazy jihadists in the middle east. Even North Korea is just trying to establish itself as an independent state and really has no ill will towards the United States other than that they fear the U.S. attacking them. Countries like China and Russia are not enemies, they are trading partners and associates. China and the U.S. are allies, even if the government doesn't want to admit it. There are disagreements between the U.S. and China, but nobody would think that cutting all ties with China is beneficial to us. Hence, they are not "enemies", more like economic rivals.

            Acknowledging Russia, China, etc. as economical rivals and not "enemies" would go a long way to properly set the narrative. It's long past time for our government and the CIA to stop dictating the U.S. who is our "friend" and "enemy". People need to stop believing this horseshit. China has not (in recent history) showed one ounce of ill will towards the United States. Even between Russia and the U.S., the closest thing to an "enemy" (except NK), the main disagreements are about whether or not Russia should be allowed to annex some areas of Russian speaking persons of Russian culture, if not nationality. They couldn't care less about annexing e.g. France or expanding their country into other ethnic regions. Given how the U.S. behaves in the area, I'd say we have no moral high ground to tell them no. But regardless, they aren't U.S. enemies.

            --
            The Government is a Bird
    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:59AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 21 2019, @01:59AM (#817660) Journal

      I'll believe I should be worried when NSA/CIA/US.gov will make all their "Minutes of Meeting" public.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:30AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @04:30AM (#817724)

    Germany is crawling with terrorists now. Makes you wonder why they would sink themselves in deeper but hey Merkel has yet to show a shred of common sense in this arena.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by maxwell demon on Thursday March 21 2019, @07:05AM

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Thursday March 21 2019, @07:05AM (#817797) Journal

      Germany is crawling with terrorists now.

      [[Citation needed]]

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @05:52AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 21 2019, @05:52AM (#817776)

    The old Master was so mean and abusive that everybody is looking for someone new, come hell or high water.

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