Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

Meta
posted by NCommander on Monday December 05, @08:37AM   Printer-friendly
Hey folks,

Well, it's been a bit of time since the last time I posted, and well, I had to think a fair bit on the comments I received. It's become very clear that while I'm still willing to at least help in technical matters, the effort to reforge SN is much higher than I expected. In addition, given the, shall we say, lukewarm response I got to my posts and journal entries, well, I'm clearly not the right person for the job.

I think at this point, it's time to figure out who is going to lead SN going forward. After my de facto stepping down in 2020, the site has, for want of a better word, been a bit listless. At the moment, no one on staff really has the cycles to take that position on. A few people have expressed interest in the position, and I've talked with Matt, who is co-owner of the site about this. By and large, whoever fills the seat will have to figure out what, if anything, needs to change in regards to moderation policy, content, and more.

If you're interested in potentially fulfilling the role, drop me an email at michael -at- casadevall.pro, with the subject of "SN Project Leader", and include the following:

  • Who you are
  • What you want to do with the site
  • How you intend to do it
  • Why do you want to get involved

I'll leave this call for candidates open until December 14th, at which point Matt and I will go through, and figure out our short list, I'll talk to editors, and solicit more comments from the community. I'm hoping to announce a successor in early January, and formalize the transition sometime in February, which will be the site's 9th anniversary.

This discussion was created by NCommander (2) for logged-in users only, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1)
  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @08:49AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @08:49AM (#1281232)

    Serve owners that have veto on everything you do, in exchange for the feeling that comes when you serve the visionaries with high standards that expect the Moon on a silver platter.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @09:06AM (1 child)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @09:06AM (#1281235) Journal

      They put a lot more money into creating this site than I suspect you or I ever will. They are willing to give the day-to-day control of the site to the right person. Would you rather buy it outright?

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Thexalon on Monday December 05, @08:01PM

        by Thexalon (636) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @08:01PM (#1281315)

        Also: To the best of my knowledge, it's not for sale. That was a big part of the discussions about how it was legally organized as a public benefit corp back in the days of Buck Feta, and I'm pretty sure part of the thinking is that we didn't want it to be possible for somebody to buy it and then change it into something it wasn't like DiCE did to the green site.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by PiMuNu on Monday December 05, @11:59AM (55 children)

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Monday December 05, @11:59AM (#1281240)

    Just to say, from what i saw most people were grateful for your intervention and effort. I certainly was (and am).

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Kell on Monday December 05, @12:42PM (52 children)

      by Kell (292) on Monday December 05, @12:42PM (#1281242)

      I'll echo this. It's been quieter since The Troubles but the SNR is higher. Running any public service is hard and often unrewarding, but it need not be a thankless task.

      Ncommander: Thank you for your hard work on our behalf. Even if this place wraps up, I'll still be glad to have been here for the past 9 years. 9 years! Can you believe it? In comparison, the green site is 25 years old - that might seem like three times as long, but in context we've lasted more than twice as long as fucking Dice's control of /. I've not logged back in since Buck Feta - I haven't needed to. Y'all helped make that happen.

      Good Soylentils: We should not let this thing we all created go into the long night. I don't know how, but it's worth fighting for.

      --
      Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by canopic jug on Monday December 05, @01:05PM

        by canopic jug (3949) on Monday December 05, @01:05PM (#1281246) Journal

        Indeed. Thanks for all the hard work and good results, Ncommander. The skill, effort, and results are truly appreciated.

        --
        Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
      • (Score: 2) by cosurgi on Monday December 05, @01:09PM

        by cosurgi (272) on Monday December 05, @01:09PM (#1281247) Journal

        Nine years! Incredible. Feels like yesterday to me.

        --
        #
        #\ @ ? [adom.de] Colonize Mars [kozicki.pl]
        #
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @01:48PM (48 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @01:48PM (#1281250)

        I have a thought, and I acknowledge the shortcomings before even describing this, but...

        If the Soylent editorial crew were willing to moderate https://old.reddit.com/r/SoylentNews [reddit.com] that would instantly solve the technical hosting issues for zero dollars, but at the costs of:

        Loss of control of the moderation system (though there is a decent moderation system in place)

        Loss of control of the commercial free configuration (though my own low volume subreddit doesn't seem to ever show sponsored content, of course that could change at any moment, but it hasn't in 10 years so far.)

        Discontinuity in the posting history (though the existing Soylent News history could be maintained as long as desired...)

        Loss of the domain address access (though soylentnews.org could redirect...)

        I had other thoughts, but was just interrupted for 30 minutes and only have a few before going away for hours (demonstrating why I am reluctant to take any position of responsibility in the community...)

        Anyway... The idea is hereby floated. Love it, flame it, ignore it, I don't mind. The fact that I was able to claim /r/SoylentNews just now shows that it likely hasn't been considered at all before.

        Oh one of the lost thoughts: story selection and publishing could be an area for automation if anyone is so inclined, in fact the existing Soylent subs queue might be retained as a way to feed the subreddit until something less kludgy is created (if that ever happened...)

        --
        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by canopic jug on Monday December 05, @02:21PM (19 children)

          by canopic jug (3949) on Monday December 05, @02:21PM (#1281254) Journal

          The owners of the orange site are even worse than the owners of the green site in regards to suppressing discussion of free and open source software, open standards, and technology policy. Anything positive and/or useful gets flagged and hidden post haste. They go as far as to strip posters of the "subreddits" they have created without pointing to a single TOS violation if they gain too much traction for FOSS and related topics. It is not even in the same category. Seriously a moderated mailing list would be better, but moderation would induce unreasonable delays.

          --
          Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
          • (Score: 4, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @02:29PM (17 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @02:29PM (#1281256)

            I, personally, have not experienced this, at all... (assuming you are referring to reddit.com as "the orange site.")

            As far as my 10 years of (admittedly limited) experience has run, the only moderation or banning I have experienced has been at the hands of the sub-reddit owners. There is some sitewide moderation and banning, but as far as I can see: subreddit owners have the option to ignore that if they choose. Subreddits can also be invitation only, or varying degrees of privately controlled.

            I would picture r/SoylentNews as being limited to links posted by the editors, with comments open to members - possibly members only.

            As far as reddit quashing of FOSS, I am not a "regular" but I have been in-and-out of various Raspberry Pi, Ubuntu, Gnome, and other FOSS oriented subreddits which seem to be pretty deep with helpful content and community. Maybe I missed an era where FOSS was bashed by the site owners, maybe that era has passed?

            --
            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @03:21AM (16 children)

              by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @03:21AM (#1281356) Homepage

              I got banned from Reddit for several years, having made ONE post. (And this was well before the Great Subreddit Banning.)

              What did I post? told someone how to make the New Green Site look and behave like the Old Green Site.

              This did little to encourage me to love Reddit.

              And even at its best -- I don't want another Reddit. I don't much care for how the interface operates.

              Appreciate the floating of the idea, tho.

              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 06, @03:32AM (15 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 06, @03:32AM (#1281360)

                > banned from Reddit for several years

                The whole site? And was it your IP address, or just the one nickname? Because creating a new nickname takes about as long as logging in with an old one... I get the burn, I was banned from /r/LateStageCapitalism for discussing an issue with one of the mods and not agreeing with everything he thought. Their loss, I never bothered to create another nick for that, I feel no need. 6 years later my 10 year old nick is still banned as far as I know.

                I'm not a reddit super-fan or anything, I just have found it to be growing some interesting and valuable little niches over the years. The /r/all front page is another thing altogether, and usually not very interesting. The trick is to learn to ignore the noise, which is pretty easy to do in a lot of it.

                --
                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @04:05AM (14 children)

                  by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @04:05AM (#1281365) Homepage

                  The whole site, yes. And the nick, not the IP address (that changed radically when I moved, and was still banned). Then after some years (I checked once in a long while), I found myself mysteriously unbanned. Yeah, could have done the alt-nick thing, but wasn't finding myself sufficiently attracted to get exercised about it. I think I've made like 25 comments there total, over however-many-years.

                  It's easier to ignore the noise here, as frankly I think we've got a better S/N ratio.

                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 06, @11:12AM (13 children)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 06, @11:12AM (#1281381)

                    You must have rubbed a site mod the wrong way... My nick is still banned after 6+ years from a single sub-reddits, I would bet that I could appeal to them if I cared enough and probably get it restored by now but I just don't care enough to bother.

                    I agree that the S/N is better here than reddit in general, but if you focus specific sub-reddits, particularly those with mods who care even a little, I think the S/N is actually better there. Yes, that is due to censorship (as the good S/N is here too), but... when you are the subreddit mods you get to choose how that looks, at least until you start showing up on /r/all, and there is a mod setting to keep the subreddit off of /r/all and similar high exposure things if that is what you want.

                    Bottom line, does the community care enough to do the work to maintain the site on an independent platform? If not, there are several options out there that reduce the work, for various prices. IMO, reddit would be a decent community experience for this community as it realistically stands today. It lacks some of the ideals that being independent embodies, but those come at a price that it seems like this community may not be willing to pay.

                    --
                    Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @06:36PM (12 children)

                      by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @06:36PM (#1281413) Homepage

                      Ya know why I think I was banned? Nothing to do with my one post (which was basically, "Disable javascript, and voila, old Green Site.") I'd also subbed to a political subreddit that was later banned wholesale (but had not posted there. Just the one post, as noted.)

                      Tells me which way the site mods like to be rubbed, all right.

                      I'm sure there are good communities there. I'm sure there are good moderators. But I don't have the time or interest to dig them up, and when I see threads where the majority of the posts are "deleted" this does not inspire confidence.

                      My learned expectation for "r/SN" would be that any comment not in line with The Mods That Be would be deleted.

                      Also, as others note the interface is not really geared toward conversations, but rather toward drive-by commenting.

                      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 06, @08:12PM (11 children)

                        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 06, @08:12PM (#1281427)

                        >I'd also subbed to a political subreddit that was later banned wholesale

                        That sounds more likely...

                        >any comment not in line with The Mods That Be would be deleted.

                        Their system does lend itself to that, although after a few downvotes comments become visible only when clicked on, so that might actually work as well or better than the current SN system without requiring mod involvement.

                        Bigger point: I would expect the mods of /r/SN to be the same mods we have here.

                        >as others note the interface is not really geared toward conversations, but rather toward drive-by commenting.

                        I don't agree with this, except: this place has the "two minute nanny" which does discourage the drive-bys... Checking here: https://old.reddit.com/wiki/automoderator/full-documentation [reddit.com] they have a body_longer_than criteria, but nothing about timeouts. And... in practice, a lot of posters do make drive-by comments, and the nature of people means that the drive-bys tend to get more upvotes than tl;dr long thought out discussion.

                        In other words, I see nothing preventing conversations at all - but they also don't "censor" the drive-by comments with timer requirements, etc.

                        Choices...

                        --
                        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                        • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @12:18AM (10 children)

                          by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @12:18AM (#1281461) Homepage

                          " I would expect the mods of /r/SN to be the same mods we have here."

                          Meaning every logged-in user? I thought Reddit was more a set pool of mods.

                          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @03:15AM (9 children)

                            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @03:15AM (#1281480)

                            Hell no. I am the one and only mod of /r/deer (don't laugh, it's a semi-long story). I also control /r/SoylentNews at the moment, but would hand full control over to NC if he would prove control of a reddit username to me.

                            If you create a subreddit, you are the mod, with the power to invite other mods (something I have never done in practice, so I don't know how a committee of mods works, but I bet it's reasonably manageable.). And, creating a subreddit is about as easy as signing up a new username.

                            You can recruit mods from your readership if you want, I think that is the common thing.

                            --
                            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @04:10AM (8 children)

                              by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @04:10AM (#1281484) Homepage

                              Well, the problem is that mods would be the approved pool, not everyone who cared to log in. And it's too easy to skew an approved pool. If SN's intent was to steer all one way, then you'd be set.

                              Well, here's an experiment: mirror stories over there, then compare discussions...

                              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @10:38AM (7 children)

                                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @10:38AM (#1281508)

                                Yeah, I think that would fail miserably until the original SN either died or did a redirect.

                                It would be possible to run a bot to mirror the comments too, but I can't even keep my Weather Underground station link up at what I would call acceptable uptime ratio for SN...

                                --
                                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @05:23PM (6 children)

                                  by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @05:23PM (#1281563) Homepage

                                  Likely so. I expect most of us are =here= because we prefer =here=, for whatever reasons may be. We've all got our rocking chairs on the porch, and we ain't movin'. :)

                                  So what's the issue with your WU station? just went and looked, had no idea they'd become such a complicated Thing. Back in my day, you had a couple basic instruments and a yellow pad and a pencil...

                                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @05:48PM (5 children)

                                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @05:48PM (#1281567)

                                    Yeah, so, the cheap / easy solution involves hooking the indoor display to a Windoze box via USB. I got that setup in a VirtualBox on our living room multimedia PC (Ubuntu host) and when the power flickers, the PC reboots, then I have to kick off the VM manually... I could automate loading of the VM, but for some reason Windoze won't auto-log me in anymore since its last update, so I would have to go into the VM and login anyway, then there's update roulette where you never know if you'll be able to do all that in 30 seconds or have to wait 3 to 23 minutes for the update to finish before you can finally log in. Given all that, and some nagging trust issues around having all this running in the first place, after a power fail I just manually kick it off when I have the time.

                                    Once it's up, it appears on the Wundermap: https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap [wunderground.com] and they keep a little better history than the Acurite cloud service does - plus, I can check my weather vs the surrounding neighborhood with the single wundermap interface. The history is fun for passing hurricanes and such... at least until the power fails.

                                    --
                                    Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                                    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @06:33PM (4 children)

                                      by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @06:33PM (#1281580) Homepage

                                      " when the power flickers, the PC reboots"

                                      Oy. Get the poor thing a UPS. That flickering is hard on the components, aside from being annoying when you have to restart stuff.

                                      Here in the Northern Wastes, the power flickers a lot, but all my PCs are on UPSs, so they never notice. This'un hasn't even had a restart in going-on 14 months. (Also too old to do the update roulette... but last time the Win11 netbookish-thing did an update, it downloaded a whole new monkey... and I'm not sure I want to know what Fedora is doing back there....)

                                      [puts on weather freak hat, goes off, looks at WU map]

                                      Wow, some of these people need to get the weather station away from their house, or out of the sun... I have some really strange microclimates right in my own yard (like, pouring rain out front while dry out back), but I guarantee you it is not 35F at the top of the hill when it's 11F at the bottom and was 0F last night... there's one over on the Jefferson River that was reading 30F all winter, when just up the road I was at -40. Turned out I could see the weather station from streetview, and it was RIGHT NEXT TO the river, which does not freeze over.... ooops!

                                      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @07:25PM (3 children)

                                        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @07:25PM (#1281591)

                                        >Get the poor thing a UPS.

                                        I have had the thought a few times, but since about 1993 I have had at least a dozen UPSs, several of which never experienced a flicker or blackout to serve their purpose before the battery died (which isn't a bad thing). Maybe three of those I tried battery replacements on, with just about universal frustrating / disappointing results - high cost of the compatible battery, high effort to find it (relative to purchase of a new UPS), and maybe psychological but it seemed that the replacement batteries almost universally didn't last as long as the originals. They do make nice portable power supplies to run an electric drill or similar in places too far from an outlet for practical extension cords... I would have pulled the trigger on a new UPS for this arrangement if I had found a reasonably priced LiFePO4 based unit, but so far I haven't. We've been in this house for 9 years, the first 4 years had no power flicker issues, then there were hurricanes in rapid succession, and lately we've been getting a flicker a month or so, I had a similar experience at my first house in Miami.

                                        >That flickering is hard on the components

                                        What really kills (Intel NUCs) is dust-packing in the cooling fans. A lot like the UPS battery replacement, cleaning the fan is a lot of effort and they seem to re-pack with new dust after a clean about 10x faster than when new. This is the 3rd i5 NUC in the media center role, first was already 4+ years old when transplanted here, second died in a massive lightning strike (that a UPS would not likely have helped: strike traveled in on the cable connection, literally shattered the insides of the cable modem, took out just about everything wired to the network. Yes, surge protectors on ALL wired network connections now...) Every time I consider a new NUC I try to talk myself into a fanless model, but it's a hard sell at the price ratio... Did pick up a fanless Celeron N5105 (10W) mini PC recently for about $220, it's no 3D gaming machine, but it plays HD video just fine (as does a RaspPi Zero 2 W for $15 & about 2W), it's a bit sluggish as compared with the i5, not quite ready to be the main media center PC, but unlike a RaspPi it does have enough oomph to drive a (now available @ $150 & down) 2TB USB external SSD, so I _finally_ have my main file backups in a separate location (on the Celeron) from the primary 2TB drive, which is over 10 years old spinning platters and survived that lightning strike.

                                        > I have some really strange microclimates right in my own yard

                                        Yeah, mine is on a pole about 3' above the garage's shingle roof, barely peeking over the crown for sort-of clear wind readings (still can't read wind very well due to surrounding trees...) My temps run lower when cold and higher when hot than most of my neighbors. It does measure rainfall, and that varies a lot by location microclimates around here, which shows on the Wundermap too.

                                        Around me, when they're reporting, most of the stations report fairly consistent temperatures (+/- 5F or less), you can actually see cold fronts pushing through & similar. Location scattering is of course random, but there's generally less than a mile between stations near me.

                                        --
                                        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                                        • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @08:03PM (2 children)

                                          by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @08:03PM (#1281597) Homepage

                                          Or why I don't buy expensive UPSs, but rather the $100 CyberPower from Costco (and each one will easily support several PCs). They reliably last about two years, they do the job, and the battery can be replaced, but it's about the same to just get another (often they die just inside the 2-year warranty, and Costco replaces 'em for free). ESR says the problem is nowadays they all overcharge the battery, which prematurely ages it; he has a project going toward a UPS that is better behaved. I can tell you in the old days, before however-it's-now-regulated charging, the batteries lasted ten years or more. But now I consider it a consumable. :(

                                          When I lived out in the desert... my nearest neighbor (quarter mile or so) had a lightning strike on the transformer pole in front of his house, and it rebounded as far as my house (I was very end of the line). It smoked the surge unit plugged into the wall, and killed the UPS plugged into the surge unit (you can do that, but NEVER do it the other way round), but the PCs attached to the UPS survived unscathed.

                                          Hadn't thought to use a UPS as a portable power source for corded equipment, thanks for the idea! Now, to find a mule to lug the durn heavy things...

                                          I haven't had my hands on an Intel NUC but they look like nice units. My PCs tend to be more like Johnny Cash's car...

                                          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @08:28PM (1 child)

                                            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @08:28PM (#1281600)

                                            >they die just inside the 2-year warranty, and Costco replaces 'em for free

                                            That's the deal, however... We had a Costco membership in Miami, then in Houston, then there was no Costco in Gainesville FL so we got a Sams' Club membership - then they started jacking up the annual fee to the point that we really weren't saving money anymore unless we crammed ourselves with more product from there than we really wanted, so we let it drop - probably 12 years ago now. We're pretty heavy Amazon users now, which saves all kinds of travel _and_ provides an ample supply of cardboard to burn... but it's not a great way to purchase products with big chunks of lead in them.

                                            >a UPS that is better behaved.

                                            That's what I was hoping for... more like a 5 year or longer service life on LiFePO4 cells. That and a smaller form factor, space is a little limited around the HTPC.

                                            >lightning strike

                                            Our "big one" shattered the tallest oak in the yard, guessing 70' tall. Threw 8' to 12' long splinters 40-60' across the yard, one hit the garage and knocked a hole in the hardi-plank siding. It smoked a GFCI outlet in the garage which I replaced almost immediately. It also took out the neighbors' cable TV box. We're both on about an acre, houses about 50' from the struck tree. Then, about 3 days later, a similarly huge strike hit something in the neighbor's backyard, took out the new GFCI I had just installed and the neighbors' new cable TV box. No strikes around us for 2 years since (or 7+ years before) then.

                                            I became a NUC addict shortly after they came out, around 2010 I guess. They are powerful enough and the form factor is the killer feature. I have two on my desk for work right now, but could easily add two more if needed for any reason. Some people get a large format "powerful" desktop and then load it with a bunch of VMs, I normally only need 3 - maybe 4 - machines at a time and I find it a whole lot easier to _not_ deal with the VM headaches (most of the time) and just stack NUCs as needed - 4 NUCs take less space than most desktop machines, VNC is a great way to access desktop OSs in the stack, and whatever you're interacting with the most can get the physical KVM hookup.

                                            --
                                            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                                            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @11:27PM

                                              by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @11:27PM (#1281624) Homepage

                                              Sam's Club is now $45/year for a two-card business membership. I don't do their whatever-they-call-it where you get rebates, because I don't buy enough there to justify it. I do at Costco, tho (you know you've spent too much too often when the store manager literally chases you around with the form for the Executive membership). I lived out in the sticks so long that buying everything in bulk is just how it is, cuz every trip is a PITA. We have both clubs in Billings and nowadays a shorter drive, so I'm thoroughly spoiled. :)

                                              The strike on my neighbor's pole split it down to the transformer and started a fire just above that... looked very strange, wish I'd gone back and got the camera. Had the oversized poles along there due to being a fire department trunk and the wind taking 'em out (every ten years regardless), so it was fairly impressive. Your tree was goin' for a good one too! Holy mackerel.

                                              I have space for however many PCs, but yeah, VM is not usually worth the bother, I just stack up PCs and KVMs. Only VM I run regularly is WinXP on the everyday linux box, because it won't reliably play nice with the network, so I use XP to schlep files. I did eye those NUCs with some envy, tho... just from the sheer number you could pile up. :D

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @03:28PM

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @03:28PM (#1281263)

            One further thought: there may have been a period of time when (corporate sponsored?) anti-FOSS shills trolled reddit and gave it that flavor.

            I could be wrong, but I feel that you can do pretty much whatever you choose, in your own subreddit(s).

            --
            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @02:37PM (14 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @02:37PM (#1281257)

          Always good to brainstorm new ideas, thanks for the Reddit comments.

          My personal experience with Reddit for a special purpose has not been good. I'm part of a college engineering competition community (I'm a judge and mentor). Many years ago (20+?) a traditional web forum was set up for use by students and professionals, it's now full of useful information. While not very pretty, the format of a couple of lines of text for each subject meant that 20+ threads were easily visible on the home page. Just thinking about it, the home page of this forum looks kind of like the Submission Queue page here on SN. That format promoted long discussions, often re-opened when new or related questions were posed in later years, the owners/moderators would make the high volume topics "sticky" at the top of the list. Some of the topics have a couple of hundred replies, going back 15 years.

          However, ~5 years ago there was a mass migration of the students to a sub-Reddit for reasons I don't fully understand. There was one "self-appointed moderator" who was a bit of a jerk, but easily ignored. Perhaps the students had thin skins and didn't like his comments? Anyway, the community is now on Reddit.

          I hate the Reddit format. Each post takes up a major chunk of real estate and no more than a few topics can be seen at once. There are adverts (that deceptively start with the appearance of a post) stuck in after every 2 or 3 posts. The screen is cluttered with bright colored (and useless) things, there are popups, even to see answers to a post. The whole experience is distracting and the chance of any post being seen after a couple of days is almost nil, so no continuing discussion ever happens. The longest thread I've seen in the past few years has been 15 answers.

          Personal peeve--I use a somewhat older version of Firefox, Reddit doesn't even work with that, so I have to open Chrome to view it.

          SN VT100 mode (green text on black) forever!! (yes, I have contributed to SN over the years).

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @03:21PM (2 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @03:21PM (#1281262)

            > "self-appointed moderator" who was a bit of a jerk, but easily ignored.

            Don't underestimate the ability of a jerk-leader to severely degrade the quality of the community. He has the power to ban users, remove posts, decide what gets stickied, etc.

            > There are adverts (that deceptively start with the appearance of a post) stuck in after every 2 or 3 posts.

            I really only see those on /r/all and other very high volume subreddits, and while they do look deceptively like a post, they are also pretty easy to mentally filter - most of them have much better thought out and lengthy subject lines than the average post. Price of free hosting, IMO.

            > The screen is cluttered with bright colored (and useless) things

            The subreddit CSS is under the control of the moderators. It is all too easy to customize it as you describe, so that happens a lot (the MySpace effect, essentially.) It can also stay relatively plain.

            > there are popups

            Maybe it's the age of my account there, I have never - ever - seen a popup on reddit, anywhere. Or, maybe I have popup blocking turned on in Chrome and it just works 100% there. Either way... And, I do get popups on that same instance of Chrome where they are necessary for my work sites to function. Whatever it is, I haven't touched popup blocking configuration in years...

            > the chance of any post being seen after a couple of days is almost nil

            The subreddit I have been running for about 10 years now is, admittedly, lower volume than SoylentNews, but... my subreddit's front page has the 25 "top" submissions which span the past 9 days at the moment. Even in the default "hot" sorting, the posts are mostly in chronological order - they range around 10 to 150 upvotes, typically. When I want to find something in /r/Gnome or similar, I'll use Google search, it works pretty well to find specific content.

            > no continuing discussion ever happens.

            It is rare, I have followed up on reddit posts I found through Google that were 2-3 years old and the posters were shocked to hear from me. So, while it's possible, the "community" at large doesn't generally do it. If that's the kind of thing you want to do, I'll say that it's at least possible in reddit, whereas it's literally impossible in facebook.

            > SN VT100 mode (green text on black) forever!! (yes, I have contributed to SN over the years).

            I _think_ that's something we might lose on reddit: the ability to customize the CSS on a per-user basis. My Soylent CSS is set to blue, I get quite the shock when it comes up brown. Tried GREEN on black for a while, but it just didn't feel good to me. Maybe a CSS & cookies guru could work out a way for the users to select from a set of CSS styles...

            --
            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @06:40PM (1 child)

              by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @06:40PM (#1281414) Homepage

              I use a Stylish/Stylus prefab called "Soylent News Night Mode Red" -- makes this place absolutely gorgeous.

              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 06, @08:26PM

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 06, @08:26PM (#1281432)

                Blue theme looks a lot like outlook mail...

                --
                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @03:30PM (5 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @03:30PM (#1281264)

            One further thought: I specifically browse old.reddit.com, not the new default reddit.com format. I wholeheartedly agree: the new format is.... unpleasant.

            --
            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @05:48PM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @05:48PM (#1281294)

              > ... old.reddit.com

              I'll have to look there, don't recall ever using old Reddit. Thanks for followup comments to my Reddit rant.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @06:59PM (3 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @06:59PM (#1281299)

                Just to reiterate, have a look here: https://old.reddit.com/r/SoylentNews/ [reddit.com]

                That's a screen grab of the SN site logo and a copy-paste of about 8 lines of CSS to color the top banner accordingly - then a copy-paste of one of today's stories, comments would be in the comments...

                I don't dislike the SN 5 point moderation system, but I don't think it's the be-all end-all solution to easy browsing in the comments.

                --
                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @06:44PM (2 children)

                  by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @06:44PM (#1281415) Homepage

                  [plaintively] Is there a way to turn it dark??

                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday December 06, @08:21PM (1 child)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday December 06, @08:21PM (#1281430)

                    There's a thing called Reddit Enhancement Suite, and it has a night mode that I used to use all the time.

                    Then I decided to review my browser plugins and remove all non-essentials, which included RES - I sort of miss night mode sometimes, but not enough to restore RES - yet.

                    The subreddit can have a custom (CSS) stylesheet, which most do, I would think with enough tweaking in there you could get whatever theme you want, but it would be a question for the /r/css community whether or not you could easily let your users cookie themselves to their preferred style sheet look and feel: https://mods.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003000471-Edit-Stylesheet [reddithelp.com]

                    --
                    Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                    • (Score: 3, Touché) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @10:28PM

                      by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @10:28PM (#1281451) Homepage

                      I was surprised to see there's no default dark mode, since it's been on the main site for a while. Ah, well, I'll just disable color in the browser, and turn it a nice restful grey. :)

          • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday December 06, @03:28AM

            by Reziac (2489) on Tuesday December 06, @03:28AM (#1281358) Homepage

            Yeah, I don't know what they did to it, but about the time of the last big PHP update, Reddit mostly stopped working in my middle-aged SeaMonkey too. I don't especially care. My main use for it in recent years was finding some jerk had attached my email address to their account (this was, um, taken care of by changing the password on =that= account). I still get random sub-notices because of that, but not enough to get exercised over.

            At any rate, tho it's an interesting idea, SN-on-Reddit would pretty much cause me to fade away. Pipedot is still up, we could go there...

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday December 06, @05:14AM (3 children)

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday December 06, @05:14AM (#1281366)

            I only fairly recently started looking at reddit, and mostly to search for useful tech advice. To me the discussions kind of have a culture of their own, and I'm not kewl enough to sling the lingo (and have no desire to, if that's not obvious by now). There are certainly interesting things there, crazy / funny / whacked out videos.

            That said, I mostly browse reddit with Old Opera, and javascript and images OFF. So I don't get anything annoying.

            AND, like JoeMerchant said, always old.reddit.com. Many links leave off the "old" so I have to correct that. Trying to figure out if I can force the browser to rewrite www.reddit.com to old.reddit.com.

            It'd be interesting to learn more about the mass migration. My hunch is just that: it's basic animal herding instinct, follow the crowd.

            I hate Chrome and won't run it. I don't mean to be a shill, but I found and use and pretty much like Vivaldi. Maybe a bit of a learning curve to get everything set right, but that's the thing- you can really customize it, and it keeps getting better (and bigger and bigger and...)

            --
            Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @12:20AM (2 children)

              by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @12:20AM (#1281462) Homepage

              Doesn't Greasemonkey have a URL rewrite function?

              Could you redirect it in HOSTS?

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday December 07, @04:42AM (1 child)

                by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday December 07, @04:42AM (#1281490)

                Thank you, I don't remember ever hearing of "Greasemonkey". I'll have to look into it.

                You've stumped me on the hosts file. My understanding is it's the first stop in DNS- any server name is mapped to an IP address. That will fail when a webserver serves many hostnames under one IP address. IE, the webserver software looks at the packets, sees which of the potentially many websites are being requested, maps the correct html (and php and whatever else) files, and sends them to the requesting client.

                I hope that made sense, and of course, if not, I'll try to 'splain better. :)

                I tried it, and I still get www.reddit.com, even when directed at the old.reddit.com server's IP address. Again, server software sees www.reddit.com inside the packets and well, so it goes.

                Another factor: large sites like reddit have load balancers at the front end. So your request packets go into a sort of distributor machine that sends your packets to one of many actual (virtual is okay) web servers. So, even if old.reddit.com is one physical machine, you probably can't get to it directly.

                You'd need a browser plugin that would change the outgoing packets. That may be possible, and maybe with Greasemonkey or some other existing plugin / extension. Problem for me is I'm using "Old Opera" and there were very few plugins made for it. I'll have to do some research...

                --
                Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @06:12AM

                  by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @06:12AM (#1281492) Homepage

                  Reasonable explainin', thanks :)

                  search terms:

                  use greasemonkey to rewrite url

                  and a bunch of StackOverflow discussions come up.

                  And I'm getting blocked popups every time I come back to this page. Somethin' wrong here... also as someone else complained, my mod points did not reset tonight (should have happened about 8pm).

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Mykl on Monday December 05, @08:44PM (12 children)

          by Mykl (1112) on Monday December 05, @08:44PM (#1281322)

          I think a move to Reddit would eliminate the sense of separate community that exists here on SN. I kinda doubt that we'd survive the move.

          Besides, I'd then need to accept being a Redditor.

          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @09:05PM (11 children)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @09:05PM (#1281324)

            Oh, I get that... however, if you really believe the tagline: "Soylent News is people" then the platform shouldn't really matter, it's the community - starting with the stories and building from there (which is something I've never seen on reddit, but seems like it's not a very hard thing to do...)

            And, you'd only be a "real" Redditor if you started reading /r/all and similar mainstream filters which would expose you to the community memes. Remember buck feta? Pepperidge Farm remembers...

            --
            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Kell on Monday December 05, @09:44PM (10 children)

              by Kell (292) on Monday December 05, @09:44PM (#1281326)

              It's true that the people are soylent news, but part of what makes us work is the fact that we are relatively unfettered in our interactions here. Ironically, that was the source of recent drama: certain types of freedom empower certain types of people to be destructive and obstructive. With a site hosted by a for-profit company, we're just trading the dictates of the green site for some other overlord. I would not make the switch.

              --
              Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @10:29PM (9 children)

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @10:29PM (#1281332)

                So, again, I get the sense of independence that comes from logging into an independently run site. It has been a hook that keeps me coming back as well.

                On the other hand, I have been using reddit and moderating a (single, low stress) subreddit since slightly before Beta, and what I have experienced in those years in my little corner of reddit tells me that reddit doesn't bother to be overlord, nor really disruptive at all, of the many thousands of small sub-reddits. That may change at any minute, but after 10 years it seems unlikely to. Reddit hosted forums undeniably lack a feeling of independence, but they also lack hosting headaches and expenses.

                Now, if /r/SoylentNews were to blow up to maybe 100x the readership we have peaked at over the last 9 years, then we might start looking back to an independent hosting solution to regain that total control before reddit gets obnoxious with targeted advertising. I doubt that is a likely reality.

                --
                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @12:30AM (8 children)

                  by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @12:30AM (#1281463) Homepage

                  I think the sense of independence comes from the fact that we are SN, and no other. We are not surrounded by other communities, or other moderation policies, or any corporate anything; we're beholden to no one but ourselves.

                  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @03:26AM (7 children)

                    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @03:26AM (#1281482)

                    I'm pretty sure that moderation policies are pretty much up to the subreddit mod(s). Actually, in 10 years of moderating, I haven't kept up with all their mod guidelines, but they are there for you to read and see if you find anything objectionable.

                    I think the main gist of their guidelines is: don't leave the garden too un-tended. I think the main way you might get unwanted attention from reddit management would be if you have users abusing each other on a large scale and some start complaining with abuse reports that you ignore. Never been a problem on /r/deer. I did have one user telling stories elsewhere on Reddit of sex with deer and another user suggesting I ban her, I explained that I wouldn't be banning anyone for things they do outside my domain... And nothing further came of that. Otherwise, I remove a couple of T shirts for sale posts a week and maybe ban the posters, dull, boring, the kind of thing you can run for a decade without thinking about it much.

                    --
                    Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                    • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @04:17AM (6 children)

                      by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @04:17AM (#1281486) Homepage

                      Do, a deer, a female deer... ;)

                      You'd still wind up with a pool of moderators, not the "everyone can play" we have here. And that makes for a different ambience.

                      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @10:47AM (5 children)

                        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @10:47AM (#1281512)

                        Well, everyone "mods" the comments with up/down votes. It's not limited to 5 points, and you don't get the "touche" or whatever labels (though they have badges or something that that I haven't really bothered to understand... I know it started with gold badges which cost money to support the site, then there were free ways to "give silver" then it proliferated and I haven't kept up...)

                        So, the limited pool of "mods" can ban users, I think they can run the forum private and approve users by hand if they choose - never tried that - and of course they do invitations to the subreddit mod pool, but, like digg before it, every user can up/down votes comments. Usually every user can post stories, but that's not the flavor of SN and I believe that's something subreddit mods can take control of too.

                        --
                        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                        • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @05:26PM (4 children)

                          by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @05:26PM (#1281565) Homepage

                          Yeah, it's not the up and down votes that are an issue. It's that only the Select have the right to say if your post stays or is deleted.

                          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @05:52PM (3 children)

                            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @05:52PM (#1281568)

                            >It's that only the Select have the right to say if your post stays or is deleted.

                            Is that any different than how SN runs now? I don't fully understand "the algorithm" but, with just a few net downvotes I believe the posts go invisible, like low rating comments in SN do too.

                            I suppose there's a lack of karma influence in the reddit rating process, too... for whatever that's worth.

                            >I expect most of us are =here= because we prefer =here=, for whatever reasons may be. We've all got our rocking chairs on the porch, and we ain't movin'. :)

                            I get a strong sense of that, it's just an expensive porch in terms of manpower to keep it from collapsing, and we seem to be more rockers than carpenters.

                            --
                            Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @06:16PM (2 children)

                              by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @06:16PM (#1281574) Homepage

                              I don't know of posts going invisible here; even egregious spam is still there at -1, if you care to look.

                              And the carpenters are already busy, while the rockers lack carpentry skills anyway... I have nothing to contribute but my appreciation for the carpenters.

                              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday December 07, @07:04PM (1 child)

                                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday December 07, @07:04PM (#1281585)

                                Well, that "if you care to look" mode is what I'm calling invisible - as opposed to deleted.

                                I browse SN at +3 and up, but then I frequently open trees if anything looks interesting.

                                In reddit, it's more rare that I'll open an invisible (downvoted) thread, but that's because most of reddit is barely worth skimming through in the first place.

                                I'm a (figurative) carpenter in my day job, a literal carpenter (kitchen remodel) in the evenings, and family time snags big and little chunks of time as well. I get a fair amount of time to rock on the porch, but that's mostly stolen moments that just aren't enough contiguous time to get "real work" done.

                                --
                                Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
                                • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday December 07, @07:48PM

                                  by Reziac (2489) on Wednesday December 07, @07:48PM (#1281592) Homepage

                                  Ah. I browse here at 0 (tho at 2 on the Green Site; our S/N is that much better) and have become fairly skilled at judging when to peruse the -1, from whatever it replied to. If I'm skimming in a hurry, I may only look at parent posts. Most days I skim down through threads and posts until either I lose interest or they achieve some predictable stasis. I do find a lot of score 0, and the occasional -1, that I deem worth an upmod (I almost never downmod). So some of what you read at 3 may be a little bit my doing. :)

                                  The ability to build useful or beautiful things is always admirable, and earns you a bit of rocking time. :)

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Opportunist on Monday December 05, @02:55PM

        by Opportunist (5545) on Monday December 05, @02:55PM (#1281258)

        The SNR is way better here than on the greener pastures.

        Especially during election times.

    • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday December 05, @04:01PM

      by acid andy (1683) on Monday December 05, @04:01PM (#1281276) Homepage Journal

      I thought exactly the same thing but we must be a drop in the ocean compared to all his youtube subscribers.

      Thanks NCommander, you're awesome.

      --
      Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
    • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday December 06, @09:45PM

      by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Tuesday December 06, @09:45PM (#1281446) Homepage Journal

      Agreed.

      --
      Older than dirt? Kid, I was a BETA TESTER for dirt! We never did get all the bugs out.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by shrewdsheep on Monday December 05, @12:24PM (22 children)

    by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday December 05, @12:24PM (#1281241)

    A bit off-topic, maybe, but I think the technical side needs serious attention, too, notably backup and roll-back strategies, which need to be automated. I also think, that there should be a Meta on every DB rollback. The subscriptions should be manually recovered to have the current funding status.

    How is DB recovery handled at the moment?

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by shrewdsheep on Monday December 05, @01:24PM

      by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday December 05, @01:24PM (#1281249)

      PS: Re-reading this, I might sound a bit negative. My comment is not meant this way: All staff's work is highly appreciated. Thank you so much! Unfortunately, I am very time-strapped and cannot be part of staff in the foreseeable future, but if there would be a repo of a configuration management system dealing with backup/roll-back, I would certainly help out there.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @02:02PM (11 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @02:02PM (#1281252)

      How is DB recovery handled at the moment?

      From the looks of it, it's whatever that accidentally/coincidentally got backed up for other reasons (e.g. VM snapshot before some change). Or like those organizations that call up all their staff and ex-staff to see if anyone has some backups somehow. 🤣

      After all this is not the first or even second time it's happened.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @03:08PM (10 children)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @03:08PM (#1281260) Journal

        Until fairly recently, we were paying for (and getting) an regular automatic Linode backup which mechanicjay had used several times. I think that one of the problems was that the backup was everything in one image - so extracting, say, the sql wasn't straightforward. But this is not something that I have any real knowledge of so I will leave it at that.

        The sql was also backed up regularly but I have no details of where or how. These seem to have either vanished or simply not be found in the last few weeks. I don't know how big the sql is, but I would have thought that a daily backup during the quieter hours should be achievable without too much of a problem.

        Since the last problem a few days ago I have written software to backup the submission queue and the processed story queue every 6 hours so as to ease the task of recovery in the event of another failure. It is possible to backup comments but there is no easy way to reinsert them with meaningful names. Each person can save comments as their username or as Anonymous Coward - but not as somebody else. However, they should be saved as part of the database itself so we shouldn't be losing them - but we are. It is frustrating because it is the comments that contain all the interest to me and I suspect many others.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Monday December 05, @05:28PM (9 children)

          by RS3 (6367) on Monday December 05, @05:28PM (#1281289)

          Please see my other post in this discussion regarding mysql backup. It's pretty easy, and it'd done by cron.daily scripts. It could be done cron.hourly, or any other desired time increment.

          As I mention in the other post, the sql dump is then gzipped. Since sql is text, it compresses extremely well.

          I have many more thoughts on this, but no time. Basically I'd want to make very frequent incremental backups... Again, the backup file is literally sql, so super compressible, so it's not going to fill up drives / media (even full backups are tiny).

          --
          Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
          • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday December 05, @06:51PM (4 children)

            by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday December 05, @06:51PM (#1281298)

            My suggestion is to put the configuration (best as CMS scripts like ansible)/dockerfile online to spin up an instance of soylentnews on github/lab etc. Then you don't have to do the work yourself.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @07:48PM

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @07:48PM (#1281313) Journal

              Containerisation is exactly what NCommander is intending to do.

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @07:58PM (2 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @07:58PM (#1281314) Journal

              Of course, we cannot provide docker containers with all the personal database data already inside them. That would hardly be way of keeping everybody's personal data private, now would it? There is also a series of privileges that need to be allocated to specific users depending on their role or function.

              However, generating fake data is possible - we do it on the development system so that we can create reproducible data for testing. It is quite time consuming for the first time though. But it gives anyone a chance to spin up a system and debug/play with the code.

              • (Score: 2) by fliptop on Monday December 05, @09:54PM (1 child)

                by fliptop (1666) on Monday December 05, @09:54PM (#1281328) Journal

                we cannot provide docker containers with all the personal database data already inside them

                Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but can you not include the data in the container? Just the code and DB schema that runs the site, spin that up, then load the data from backup?

                --
                To be oneself, and unafraid whether right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformity
                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06, @01:08AM

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @01:08AM (#1281347) Journal

                  Yes - WE can. That is the whole point of doing this. But we are not going to provide the docker package complete with personal data to other people.

                  One of the benefits of the container is that is can be transferred elsewhere and run. If someone thinks that they are going to be able to simply ask for a docker installation and it will arrive complete with data then that is incorrect. They could have the container without any data so that they do not have to build a new system complete with all the same versions of software in order to test or debug software - which is what we have to do today. Several people have tried this path, including myself, and simply found the the effort was not justified.

                  However, I will happily take the docker container and create my own fake data in order to do bug squashing or testing changes to the Perl code.

                  At least that is my understanding of it.

          • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday December 06, @10:51AM (3 children)

            by PiMuNu (3823) on Tuesday December 06, @10:51AM (#1281379)

            > It's pretty easy, and it'd done by cron.daily scripts

            Implementing backups is usually pretty easy. But unless you regularly test for a disaster recovery, the backup procedure will go mouldy. So it needs someone to regularly check that cron is running the job properly, the backups are going still somewhere sensible and the data is recoverable. That's a waste of an afternoon every few months, so you need someone to volunteer for that (not me).

            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday December 06, @06:16PM (2 children)

              by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday December 06, @06:16PM (#1281411)

              Yes, and I do that now for the servers I admin (occasional work- not full-time).

              It takes very little time. Maybe an hour if I'm super thorough, make extra manual copies, etc. But just looking at the directory lists of backup files takes maybe a couple of minutes.

              Oh- almost forgot- "logwatch" and "anacron" logging programs email summaries of the processes and files that were backed up, so that's pretty good indication that all went well. Of course, that is not logically definitive, but so far, it's never failed (14+ years).

              I've rarely needed to do a restore, except one major time when one webserver failed- something in hardware, and in failing somehow the mirrored drive pair (not my build- previous person's) got severely corrupted. Being an efficiency-bound person, I had another machine on standby, ready to go.

              --
              Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
              • (Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday December 07, @08:38AM (1 child)

                by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday December 07, @08:38AM (#1281500)

                Okay - once upon a time we had a situation where backups were all made as intended, but due to a misconfiguration/misintention we could not restore from backup when needed. So I would go through the restore procedure.

                (Yes, the sysadmin did screw up. People are fallible, not everyone who is asked to sysadmin in a small outfit has enough experience/knowledge to get it right.)

                • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Wednesday December 07, @06:15PM

                  by RS3 (6367) on Wednesday December 07, @06:15PM (#1281573)

                  No question, people and things and procedures are imperfect. Restore testing is critically important. Of course, that done onto a copied image of the system.

                  I'm curious- what are some of the specifics of the situation you encountered? OS? FS? Backup software, or scripts running things like mysqldump, gzip, tar, ftp, etc.? Media onto which the backups were stored?

                  --
                  Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by inertnet on Monday December 05, @02:16PM (8 children)

      by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @02:16PM (#1281253) Journal

      I was wondering about the same thing, even thought about donating space on my NAS for database backups. It would be nicer to have the code updated to include an event store, which can be backed up incrementally and can be used to rebuild the entire DB. But we don't have a Perl programmer who could do that.

      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @03:35PM (6 children)

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @03:35PM (#1281266) Journal

        There are problems with off-loading backups to remote locations. We are handling personal data from all over the world and some nations expect (not unreasonably in my view) that it is given adequate protection. A single person's data might not seem important to you but the compromise of a whole database could certainly result in a few legal challenges.

        The major players, such as Linode, AWS etc can easily handle such legal requirements but they become an onerous task for a private individual.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by RS3 on Monday December 05, @04:50PM (4 children)

          by RS3 (6367) on Monday December 05, @04:50PM (#1281283)

          I have a lot more to say but little time at the moment:

          To OP- you don't need a single line of perl code to backup database:

          /usr/bin/mysqldump -q -e -hlocalhost -u(db username) -p(db username's password) (db name) > (some filename, or process like gzip, and/or an encryption utility then > filename, etc.)

          As you can see, you then encrypt the entire backup. Easy. I have cron.daily scripts doing this. They generate a backup filename based on the db_name and date+time at runtime.

          In all fairness, I did not invent this- someone previous to me, who I don't know, created the backup system in the early 2000s. Then other types of backup systems involving external backup server (just a fileserver), tape / optical / yet another hard disk / paper tape / punched cards (jk!) did their thing.

          --
          Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
          • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday December 05, @06:14PM (1 child)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @06:14PM (#1281296) Journal

            I use something similar on my own databases.

            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday December 05, @07:31PM

              by RS3 (6367) on Monday December 05, @07:31PM (#1281308)

              Funny you mention that. I used to use "FoxPro" (dBase similar) for a few personal databases, but I haven't run that software in probably 15 years, and I forget which older system's hard disk has it (maybe one that died!).

              One database I built long ago was simple- my house's circuit breaker panel and various branch circuits. I made several printouts sorted on breaker number, another sorted by floor then room.

              I finally decided to add my own circuit database to one of the MySQL ones I admin. But I neglected (just didn't think of it) to add a backup script for it. No need to keep backing it up- I'll do one manual mysqldump backup and be happy that I don't have to key it in again. Thanks!!

              --
              Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
          • (Score: 1) by shrewdsheep on Monday December 05, @07:04PM (1 child)

            by shrewdsheep (5215) on Monday December 05, @07:04PM (#1281301)

            This + using either a relay log or the general query log which should be rotated at the time of the db dump should allow the reconstruction also to points between dumps. I have not worked with mysql and do not know whether the dump is atomic which might be required to make replaying the log-files work.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by RS3 on Monday December 05, @07:21PM

              by RS3 (6367) on Monday December 05, @07:21PM (#1281305)

              Yes, really good point. AFAIK, and web search results say MySQL is atomic, so you'd want to back up the 2 (3?) log files.

              It really depends on the time-granularity (resolution) you need. Here, I dunno. It's not a Wall Street high-frequency trading database, so sub-millisecond is probably not necessary.

              It'd be good to do some analysis of various buffer / cache flushing. Big buffers can result in bigger data loss, but too small buffers would bottleneck a busy system (make faster storage system) so some tuning is in order to figure out the compromise, but that's pretty easy.

              Incremental backup is available within MySQL, so I'd look strongly at fairly frequent incremental backups, which again, compressed text is going to be tiny, and you could auto-delete older ones after a full backup is done.

              --
              Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
        • (Score: 2) by inertnet on Monday December 05, @09:38PM

          by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @09:38PM (#1281325) Journal

          I agree and I don't even want plain data on my NAS. Someone already mentioned encryption, which would be a logical thing to use with remote backups. I don't need encryption keys, the site administrators are the only ones who need to be able to rebuild the database from the encrypted backups.

          It's nice that you have automated Linode backups but apparently nobody knows how to restore them, or maybe they're unusable and you should stop paying for them.

      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday December 05, @05:17PM

        by RS3 (6367) on Monday December 05, @05:17PM (#1281286)

        I responded by responding to janrinok's response.

        --
        Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
  • (Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @01:57PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @01:57PM (#1281251)
    What are the odds this story and other recent ones will stay up till Dec 14th? ;)
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @05:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 05, @05:25PM (#1281288)

      Yeah, I had done some excellent shitposting on one of the articles that was lost. All that work for nothing.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pTamok on Monday December 05, @03:40PM

    by pTamok (3042) on Monday December 05, @03:40PM (#1281268)

    Heartfealt thanks to NCommander for all his efforts to keep SN operating, and janrinok, and other people keeping in the background (you know who you are).

    Don't sweat over the small stuff. It's done when it is done.

    If better and easier recovery is possible (rolling forward a db update journal), it is likely a good idea to do it. Worthwhile looking at backup strategy to enable this.

    As for moderation/'censorship' - I don't know of any answers. Keeping the technical bits working to give us something to argue over seems like a good first step.

    I wish you (collectively) success with your endeavours. I'm not in a position to volunteer. Sorry.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05, @03:50PM (12 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @03:50PM (#1281271) Homepage Journal

    The pushback you saw in the other discussion was about censorship. In fact, you specifically mentioned Reddit style censorship. Said censorship was to be applied to "misinformation" regarding subjects such as COVID.

    We've witnessed how that works over the past two years. China says COVID did not originate in a laboratory, WHO, and most all official government channels went along with that. China said COVID didn't even originate in China, that got less traction, but a lot of fools went along with it. Thus was born the "Hug a Chinaman" bullshit.

    People were censored and/or banned from various platforms for continuing to suggest that COVID was a biological lab experiment that escaped. And, the ban hammers really came down hard on anyone who entertained the thought that COVID was a biological weapon.

    After more than a year, it is safe to again question the official narrative regarding the origins of COVID.

    I'm here to tell you, if you give lip service to freedom of speech, but seriously consider censorship and banning for "misinformation", you're a hypocrite.

    On SN today, we can call out a hypocrite. With censorship implemented, no one can call out a hypocrite. Posts will just disappear, and the user will either be banned, or simply move on to less restrictive forums.

    The person who leads SN needs to remember that all of human advancement has been the result of questioning the status quo, and questioning authority. Groundbreaking advancements in medicine, or any of the sciences, has been the result of crazy people doing things differently, often incurring the wrath of established authority.

    Things like washing your hands before delivering a baby, or doing surgery? The very idea should have been censored when it originate, right? Germs? That idea was outrageous. Everyone just KNEW that if you got sick and died, it was the will of God!

    Censorship was wrong when the Catholic Church was hunting down heretics to kill, and it's just as wrong today.

    Yes, I chose that specific example for a reason. "Settled Science" is just a new religion, that requires censorship, to prevent outsiders exposing just how silly it is. "Settled Science" is a fiction, and it needs to be challenged continuously.

    Once again, we don't need a Ministry of Truth, whether it be run from the Biden White House, or from the SN administration. Everyone should fear the very idea of a MinTru.

    --
    Don’t confuse the news with the truth.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @07:18PM (11 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @07:18PM (#1281303)

      >Everyone should fear the very idea of a MinTru.

      I agree with this, but disagree that Reddit goes trolling through their entire system looking for "Non-truths" to censor. Stuff that hits the front page? Sure. Stuff that's getting millions of views an hour? No doubt. Stuff in a mostly private sub-reddit which might reach 1000 eyeballs in the first 30 days after posting? A) it's doubtful they even have a bot capable of such things, sure... the bot can give them a list of posts to look at, but just searching for COVID vaccine blood clot isn't going to tell you whether this is a "Pro-truth" or "Anti-truth" posting. So, B) given their limited bandwidth for evaluating posts, it seems that they do what I would do in their shoes: hit the ones that are having the maximum impact. And, C) they are semi-sensitive to anti-censorship sentiments, but like here, there comes a time when some kind of censorship really is the answer.

      Also consider: D) there are (supposedly proven) bad actors out there pushing divisive and harmful messaging onto social media platforms of all kinds, and while I respect the right to free speech, I don't respect bots with an agenda contrary to what is widely held sentiment. In other words: I have no problem at all with kicking the anti-semites out of the Synagogue.

      I strongly agree that the religion of settled science is out of control, grasping at the weakest of evidence and labeling it "Settled Science" when it matches their opinions / agendas.

      I would caution: the weakest snake oil can be dressed up with JAMA, PLOS and all manner of articles published by "big names" from Harvard School of Medicine, The Cleveland Clinic, University of Oxford, etc. etc. etc. providing dozens of articles spanning a decade or more of research all reaching the same conclusion. And, if you don't do your own research, you may not find the hundreds of counterpoint articles refuting the carefully procured impressive package of research.

      --
      Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday December 05, @11:18PM (10 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @11:18PM (#1281340) Homepage Journal

        You've made an excellent argument here for identifying, and eliminating the bots. Whether the platform be Reddit, Twitter, or some small place like SoylentNews, bots should always be unwelcome.

        But, you seem to be arguing that because Reddit's censorship only affects the big guys with millions of followers, that makes censorship acceptable. You and I can fly under the radar, so to speak. Sorry, I don't accept that. They may not restrict what I can say, but they will restrict what I can see, hear, and read.

        "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

        --
        Don’t confuse the news with the truth.
        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @11:31PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @11:31PM (#1281344)

          I understand the principal, but the practice is what I base my day to day decisions on.

          I sincerely despise AT&T for a laundry list of reasons, but I don't go choosing my ISP based on whether or not they use AT&T trunk lines...

          --
          Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06, @01:48AM (8 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @01:48AM (#1281350) Journal

          As you insist on continuing this discussion here, let me give you a few things to think about.

          1. A few months ago someone posted a link to child pornography in a comment. I deleted it. I didn't discuss it with everyone - just one other person - and it was deleted. It was possibly an attempt to land the site in serious trouble so that we would probably be forced to close down. Are you arguing that we should have debated the matter further, or not even deleted it at all? How long does US law permit us to display that link while we discuss whether or not a deletion is justified? What if we say we will not delete it because some of the community disagree in principle with deleting data. How do you think that would go down in court?

          2. We covered a story in the last few days of an 11 year old who ran a BBS. If he was doing something similar today and he wished to join this site we would probably welcome him with open arms. A few months ago we suffered from various attacks by 'apk' which resulted in 24 spam posts posted in a few hours and 16 of them in one story. You can probably all remember the content. Would you want your 11 year old son or daughter being exposed to that? I know some adults that decided to leave the site because of that sort of behaviour. The spam was also deleted.

          Several comments recently point out that the site has a reputation as a right-wing site. We are not. But several of our community hold fairly strong political views. The community might decide that such discussions should not be permitted because they put the site in a bad light. On the other hand they may fight for the opposite viewpoint. That discussion, if held here, will simply disrupt another Meta that is intended to get people thinking of a new leadership with a revitalised and maintainable software base. We are not trying to solve every issue now.

          We DO need to have a discussion on the policy regarding how we handle such things but not here, not now. Until we have a reliable way of deleting data that we are obliged by law to do, we cannot yet discuss any policy meaningfully. Currently there are parts of the site that the admins cannot edit or control. So any policy needs to take this into account yet the software is not yet even written. We do not know what will be possible or impossible to achieve. This story is about the leadership going forward. Whoever that person is will have to hold that discussion, construct and publish a policy which takes into account the views of the community, and then carry that forward.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06, @03:42AM (5 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @03:42AM (#1281362) Homepage Journal

            1. Illegal crap is deleted, doesn't need any fanfare. Illegal is illegal, and if in doubt, you should err on the side of safety.

            2. Spam may or may not be legal so you don't have that safety net to rely on when deciding whether to delete it. You do have the PG-13 rating to use. Almost no one would object to the deletion of that goatse spam. You would get nearly universal approval. If that objective is stated clearly, I would say go for it. Other spam is - - - debatable. The mod system has been and/or is being discussed. If the members could spam mod a post to negative leventy-leven, no one would ever see the spam, unless they actually went looking for it.

            Virtually all other censorship is, and always will be wrong.

            And, the reason I brought up censorship is, it was mentioned in the other meta post by Ncommander. The man stated pretty clearly that he wanted to introduce censorship to the site, above and beyond what the law demands, and above and beyond any PG-13 or R ratings might require.

            It is appropriate, when recruiting a sysadmin, to find out his/her views on the subject of censorship.

            --
            Don’t confuse the news with the truth.
            • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06, @08:09AM (4 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @08:09AM (#1281371) Journal

              it was mentioned in the other meta post by Ncommander

              Which is where your comments should have been directed. They would have been at home here https://soylentnews.org/meta/article.pl?sid=22/11/20/0342250 [soylentnews.org] or https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=22/11/12/1229226 [soylentnews.org] where the matter was first raised, and the justification for it explained.

              It is the community's views on censorship that are important - the leadership and administration of this site have always tried to serve the community. It is not done for self aggrandisement. Actually it is a pretty thankless task which will always fail to please somebody. We give everybody as much freedom as is allowed in the journals, but even that might have been against the site's own interests.

              If the community decide that journals containing extreme political views from either side of the spectrum should not be permitted then that is what the administration should be attempting to achieve. Politics was not a topic for the first year or two of the site. There is NO inherent right of freedom of speech on the internet. We can choose to host whatever is decided is suitable. Ask Google. Twitter, Facebook or any of a multitude of other web sites that are around today. The First Amendment limits the US Government's powers and nothing else.

              • (Score: 1) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday December 06, @01:33PM (3 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @01:33PM (#1281388) Homepage Journal

                As so often happens, my original post above has served as a lightning rod. Modded down, modded up, back down, and up. The community is voting . . .

                --
                Don’t confuse the news with the truth.
                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday December 06, @02:57PM

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @02:57PM (#1281396) Journal

                  Except this isn't the discussion that will count. That discussion is still to come.

                • (Score: 3, Funny) by kazzie on Tuesday December 06, @07:34PM

                  by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @07:34PM (#1281426)

                  Clearly we need to put your post inside a magnetic field: at this rate it could generate enough energy to power the SN servers!

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by pTamok on Tuesday December 06, @09:34PM

                  by pTamok (3042) on Tuesday December 06, @09:34PM (#1281443)

                  It's not a meaningful vote, as it is so easy to game. The disclaimer on the polls applies.

                  This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.

                  It is an indication of how strongly some people feel about the topic, but (strong) feelings and rationality make strange bedfellows. Being 'liked' by people and feeling good about your opinions doesn't necessarily make them error-free.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RS3 on Tuesday December 06, @05:40AM (1 child)

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday December 06, @05:40AM (#1281367)

            I see and agree this discussion's main topic is about tech issues and who and how to move forward. NCommander did mention that part of the person's role will involve content, moderation, etc., so this is somewhat on topic.

            I wasn't aware there was so much bad stuff being posted here. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that. I've had to deal with such things a few times and it's sad that there's such depravity in our world at all. I, and we, can not thank you enough for all you do that we know about, and as much or more for all you do that we don't know about. I know, all too well, about thankless jobs.

            Not defending anyone, and certainly don't mean to get in the middle here, but I think (obviously?) it's about where to draw the line of what needs to be removed.

            I'm a pretty independent open-minded person (I hope and aspire anyway). I don't mind someone here mentioning some medical nonsense. Sorry, as much as I truly like, respect, and am enriched by everyone here, I'm not going to run out and take a medicine because someone here wrote about it.

            In general with information from here and everywhere, I put the stuff in the crock-pot between my ears and see what it becomes eventually.

            That goes for politicians too!! They do a lot of talking anyway. Many of them like attention a bit too much. I'm not going to try a medicine because a politician said to.

            But I will follow my doctor's and other solid medical advice. Especially the better safe than sorry kind. Well, I might take something a doctor tells me to. Maybe.

            My point is, and I would strongly suggest this as a subtext to everything here, take things with a grain of salt. Whatever it is. Don't risk life, health, finances, relationships, time, effort, or anything, just because someone here wrote it.

            In fact, don't even take my advice! :-/

            --
            Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
  • (Score: 2) by turgid on Monday December 05, @05:42PM (4 children)

    by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @05:42PM (#1281292) Journal

    In addition, given the, shall we say, lukewarm response I got to my posts and journal entries, well, I'm clearly not the right person for the job.

    That's a shame. I really appreciate what you're doing for us all here. I wish I could help too, but I'm very thinly spread as it is.

    Ignore the trolls.

    • (Score: 2) by turgid on Monday December 05, @05:45PM (3 children)

      by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday December 05, @05:45PM (#1281293) Journal

      I don't know anything about databases, or I would offer to help. (From what you've said already, they sound particularly mysterious).

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday December 05, @07:21PM (2 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday December 05, @07:21PM (#1281304)

        Databases aren't so mysterious. The mechanics of backing them up and restoring them properly can be.

        --
        Україна досі не є частиною Росії. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/878601.html Слава Україні 🌻
        • (Score: 2) by turgid on Tuesday December 06, @05:56PM (1 child)

          by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday December 06, @05:56PM (#1281410) Journal

          You'd think that the primary purpose of a database being the reliable storage and retrieval of data that the first thing they'd do is make backup and restore not just easy but trivial. Some mysteries will never be solved.

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday December 06, @06:51PM

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday December 06, @06:51PM (#1281417)

            Hmmm, I dunno, if you see my above posts, the backup is remarkably simple and done automatically. To me, anyway, it's pretty simple and easy (and I don't like things that are unnecessarily difficult and/or complex). :)

            --
            Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
(1)