from the is-that-a-bone-saw-in-your-pocket? dept.
Submitted via IRC for Bytram
C.I.A. Concludes That Saudi Crown Prince Ordered Khashoggi Killed
The Central Intelligence Agency has concluded that the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, ordered the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, according to American officials.
The C.I.A. made the assessment based on the crown prince's control of Saudi Arabia, which is such that the killing would not have taken place without his approval, and has buttressed its conclusion with two sets of crucial communications: intercepts of the crown prince's calls in the days before the killing, and calls by the kill team to a senior aide to the crown prince.
[...] The increasingly definitive assessment from the spy agency creates a problem for President Trump, who has tied his administration to Prince Mohammed and proclaimed him the future of Saudi Arabia, a longtime American ally. But the new assessment by the C.I.A. is sure to harden the resolve of lawmakers on Capitol Hill to continue to investigate the killing of Mr. Khashoggi and punish Saudi Arabia.
Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law and senior adviser, has been particularly close to Prince Mohammed. Mr. Kushner has long advocated that a strong relationship with the Saudis is in the United States' interest, and he has pushed to maintain support for the crown prince despite the death of Mr. Khashoggi, who Saudi officials now say was killed with a lethal dose of tranquilizers and dismembered. Previously, Saudi officials said that Mr. Khashoggi had been strangled.
[...] Neither administration officials nor intelligence officers believe the controversy over Mr. Khashoggi will drive Prince Mohammed from power, which is one reason White House officials believe cutting ties with the prince would not be in the interest of the United States.
takyon: The Saudis have denied the reports.
See also: Saudi media ignore US reports on Khashoggi
Top White House Official Involved in Saudi Sanctions Resigns
Previously: Turkey Says that a Missing Critic of the Saudi Government was Killed in Saudi Consulate in Istanbul
Saudi Arabia Reportedly Prepared to Admit Involvement in Journalist's Death
Related Stories
Turkey 'has recording proving Saudi murder'
Turkish officials have audio and video evidence that shows missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi was tortured and killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, the BBC has learned.
Mr Khashoggi, a critic of the Saudi government, has not been seen since he entered the building on 2 October.
Turkish intelligence had "documented evidence" of the murder, a source close to the investigation said.
Saudi Arabia denies the allegations. It says the journalist left the building.
Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance and reported death have prompted international outrage and dented business confidence in Saudi Arabia. Tycoon Sir Richard Branson has halted talks over $1bn Saudi investment in Virgin space firms and several top business leaders have pulled out of a Saudi investment conference later this month.
Also at CNN.
See also: CNBC withdraws from Saudi conference over concerns about journalist Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance
Saudis preparing to admit Jamal Khashoggi died during interrogation, sources say
The Saudis are preparing a report that will acknowledge that Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi's death was the result of an interrogation that went wrong, one that was intended to lead to his abduction from Turkey, according to two sources.
One source says the report will likely conclude that the operation was carried out without clearance and transparency and that those involved will be held responsible.
One of the sources acknowledged that the report is still being prepared and cautioned that things could change.
The Washington Post columnist was last seen in public when he entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in Turkey on October 2. Previously, Saudi authorities had maintained Khashoggi left the consulate the same afternoon of his visit, but provided no evidence to support the claim.
Saudi Arabia could hike oil prices over the Khashoggi case. Here's why it would backfire
Saudi Arabia's not-so-veiled threat issued in a government statement Sunday emphasized its "vital role in the global economy" and that any action taken upon it will be met with "greater action". But as oil ticks upward, a look at history and geopolitics suggests that while a Saudi-driven oil price spike would bring pain for much of the world, it would ultimately backfire on itself.
"If this is something the Saudis were allowed to do, they'd be really shooting themselves in the foot," Warren Patterson, commodities analyst at ING, told CNBC's Squawk Box Europe on Tuesday. "In the short to medium term we'll definitely see an incremental amount of demand destruction, but the bigger issue is in the longer term."
Any action in withholding oil from the market, he said, "would only quicken the pace of energy transition."
Previously: Turkey Says that a Missing Critic of the Saudi Government was Killed in Saudi Consulate in Istanbul
Exclusive: After Khashoggi murder, some Saudi royals turn against king's favorite son
Amid international uproar over the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, some members of Saudi Arabia's ruling family are agitating to prevent Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman from becoming king, three sources close to the royal court said.
Dozens of princes and cousins from powerful branches of the Al Saud family want to see a change in the line of succession but would not act while King Salman - the crown prince's 82-year-old father - is still alive, the sources said. They recognize that the king is unlikely to turn against his favorite son, known in the West as MbS.
Rather, they are discussing the possibility with other family members that after the king's death, Prince Ahmed bin Abdulaziz, 76, a younger full brother of King Salman and uncle of the crown prince, could take the throne, according to the sources.
Prince Ahmed, King Salman's only surviving full brother, would have the support of family members, the security apparatus and some Western powers, one of the Saudi sources said.
Prince Ahmed returned to Riyadh in October after 2-1/2 months abroad. During the trip, he appeared to criticize the Saudi leadership while responding to protesters outside a London residence chanting for the downfall of the Al Saud dynasty. He was one of only three people on the Allegiance Council, made up of the ruling family's senior members, who opposed MbS becoming crown prince in 2017, two Saudi sources said at the time.
Meanwhile, the Trump administration's continued support of Saudi Arabia has been denounced by several U.S. Senators:
The White House's pledge to maintain its strong military and economic alliance with Saudi Arabia amid reports that U.S. intelligence has assessed that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the gruesome murder of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, has ignited a flurry of bipartisan condemnation in Washington.
After President Trump issued a remarkable statement on Tuesday in which he acknowledged that the heir apparent to the Saudi throne may have known about the "tragic event," but that his administration nevertheless "intended to remain a steadfast partner of Saudi Arabia," several Republican and Democratic members of Congress denounced the White House's position.
Previously: Turkey Says that a Missing Critic of the Saudi Government was Killed in Saudi Consulate in Istanbul
Saudi Arabia Reportedly Prepared to Admit Involvement in Journalist's Death
CIA Concludes That Saudi Crown Prince Ordered Khashoggi Killed
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Whoever on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:21AM (8 children)
Where's realDonaldTrump to tell us this is fake news?
(Score: 2, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:25AM (5 children)
He and Jared are too busy sucking said Crown Prince off. They'll be done soon enough, just wait around.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:11AM
I had fun writing assembly code that protected the DOs partition and obfuscated the MBR upon boot until russian hackers intercepted the writing calls and encoded everything.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:13PM (1 child)
That's kind of a homophobic way to put it, isn't it? Have you been hanging out Ethanol-fueled?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:18PM
It's at about the level of discourse this site can handle, it seems.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:23PM (1 child)
Unimaginably, it seems that the reaction to this travesty is to get Turkey off of the Saudis backs by helping them kill someone else [nymag.com]. You almost can't make up this level of pure evil without sounding like an Austin Powers movie script.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:05PM
No, no, it's very easy to reach that level of evil.
Just study history.
Especially the history of governments, and the people that run them.
Death by torture, massacre, famine, genocide, culture whitewashes ... you name it, it's well-precedented.
It's almost enough to make one a libertarian.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by fustakrakich on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:27AM
This close enough? [reuters.com] He's protecting his peeps...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:40PM
You don't need me to tell you what's fake. You know. You know. You’re seen it. You’ve lived it, and you elected me to put a stop to it. And we are doing a phenomenal job of putting a stop to it. That I can tell you. I have a running war with the media. They are among the most dishonest human beings on Earth, right? They sort of made it sound like I had a feud with my Intelligence Community. I just want to let you know, the reason my wonderful Intelligence Community is the number one stop is it is exactly the opposite.
Jamal, believe me, we're demanding everything about Jamal. And if it turns out he died, that's a terrible thing and it certainly would not be a positive to our deal with Saudi. It would certainly not be a good thing at all. But don't worry, we won't be cutting back on the deal. On the equipment we're selling them, and it's over $110 billion, could be as much as $500 billion. No cutting back on that one. I think that would be hurting us. We have jobs, we have a lot of things happening in this country. Frankly, I think that would be a very, very tough pill to swallow.
And it's very sad. You hear so much about this one guy from the #AmazonWashingtonPost [twitter.com]. But, what about the many unknown Middle Easterners we have coming in from Honduras, from Guatemala, from Mexico? What about the horrible Caravan of People crossing our Southern Boarder in Tijuana? I have sent General Mattis and my Military to stop the terrorists streaming in. This is a National Emergy!!!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:27AM (51 children)
This has been pretty clear since day 1. The question is, what do we do about it?
IMHO, we cut the fuckers off at the knees. We don't buy oil from them. Countries who want to trade with us don't buy oil from them. We don't sell them weapons. We don't give them signal intelligence. We don't give them cover for their barbaric middle ages society.
In short, we treat them like the backwards barbarians they are, unfit for the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
All long bearded short cortexed assholes need to be resisted, not just those with lots of oil.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:30AM (16 children)
Though I agree with you, it will be hard to implement sanctions against any country that buys Saudi Arabian oil. There are just too many of our allies drinking from the Saudi pipeline.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Snotnose on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:46AM (15 children)
I live in California, where Jerry Brown and friends not only rammed through a huge gas tax, but worded the initiative that would have reversed it in such a way that a lot of people were "I want to kill the gas tax, do I vote yes or no on this?". Let alone people this stupid shouldn't be allowed to vote, the asshole that worded it (Xavier or some other weird name) got elected to a higher post.
I need to get my shit together and get the hell out of this fucking state. Dad died, need to close the estate, I have no reason to stay here any more.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 0, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:54AM
Good riddance...just don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Whoever on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:07AM (10 children)
Are you too poor to pay the tax on the gas you buy?
Don't pretend that you care about other people: this is purely about your own selfishness or your poverty.
In comparison to large parts of the world, gas taxes in California are low.
I bet you don't think anthropogenic climate change is real.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:34AM (7 children)
Like that is relevant.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Whoever on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:23AM (6 children)
Really, are you that stupid?
OK, I guess, you are, so I'll spell it out for you.
Sales taxes tend to reduce the sale of the underlying goods on which they are applied. Gas taxes tend to reduce the usage of gasoline, therefore they tend to reduce CO2 emissions. Gas taxes are very relevant to climate change, since they impact CO2 emissions.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:43AM (4 children)
He's not stupid, he's evil. There is a difference.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:47AM
Those two attributes are not mutually exclusive.
(Score: 1, Touché) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:23PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:19PM (1 child)
If only you were funny, or insightful, or even on-topic. Back under your bridge, troll.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:27PM
California has plenty wrong with it, such as being a likely target for US state-level austerity measures (huge debt, heavy dependence on a few industries), and many decades of short-sighted fiscal and economic decisions. The problem with Whoever's lecture on gas taxes and the like is that people don't pay those taxes, if they don't live in or visit the state. Massive emigration has been a thing for almost two decades. Might be time to pay attention before California does a Greece or a Puerto Rico.
And the alleged benefit of these taxes claimed earlier in this thread is slight - more money in the California maw and a very negligible change in green house gases emissions. Sure, Whoever could have, with a little thinking, dug out some better benefits than that. But it's telling that he/she didn't even try.
Then there's the matter of the predictably insipid rhetorical devices used here and elsewhere such as "don't pretend that" [soylentnews.org] or "don't you dare" [soylentnews.org]. I think we all need to remove those from our vocabulary, or at least use them sparingly with a great deal of attempted sarcasm.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:15PM
Impact CO2 emissions only for the state of California. Doesn't affect emissions for the parts of the world that are actually causing current increases in CO2 emissions.
We already know what happens when someone imposes harsh restrictions on one part of the world, but not on the rest of the world. The markets route around the damage. You might know that process as "exporting the pollution".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:50PM
Yeah, how terrible it would be for someone to care about their own poverty! Who cares about poor people?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:47PM
what kind of stupid bitch thinks government helps anything?
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday November 18 2018, @08:14AM
Don't let your ass hit you on your way out.
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/8892600-181/gas-tax-repeal-advocates-seek-recall?sba=AAS [pressdemocrat.com]
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:00AM
The crabs sure seek to pull you down if you even talk about escaping the trap.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by realDonaldTrump on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:20PM
Let me tell you, I've had some tremendous rallies in High Tax, High Crime California. Huge crowds, the likes of which you've never seen in your entire life. So many people said, "oh, don't waste your time in California, there's no way you can win there." Unfortunately, I didn't win there. I did win there. I would have won there. If they counted the Americans that voted. And not the illegals. Millions and millions of illegals "voting" for Crooked H. And fortunately I won across our great Country -- many people are saying that electing me was the best, and smartest decision the American people have ever made.
I said, be sure to get out and vote for Republican John Cox for Governor. I said, he will make a BIG difference! I gave him my FULL endorsement. Not something I do easily. And the Gas Tax was a very big thing with John. He promised to cut that tax tremendously. And I really think he would have. John had a really big number in California. Because of me. And who knows, possibly he won. Lots and lots of votes that haven't been counted. Even Fake News CNN said the Trump impact was really big, much bigger than they ever thought possible. But we're seeing massive Voter Fraud in California again. You have, it's called the Democrat Party. But, they don't really believe in democracy. Crooked!!!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:33AM (4 children)
The US-Saudi relationship: Much less than meets the eye [cnn.com]
They can't hurt the U.S. too badly with oil. If the oil price goes down, everything is cheap. If the oil price goes up, it makes U.S.-based fracking more viable.
It's possible that messing with the U.S.-Saudi relationship in the midst of a trade war with China is the wrong move.
As for Middle Eastern security concerns, this might be the best time ever to repair the relationship with Turkey (you know, that country in NATO).
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:56AM (3 children)
If the price of oil gets too low the US oil wells slow down and thousands of workers get laid off. In the US self sufficiency takes a backseat to profitability.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:32AM
If only the hundreds of millions of people in the US did something other than employ thousands of oil well workers.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday November 18 2018, @08:21AM (1 child)
-d.
I Am Absolutely Serious.
Not long ago I read quite an insightful article by an economist who made a really good case for Trump's election being the result of low oil prices.
But he wasn't President yet? You quite reasonably protest.
No it's not that: low oil prices shuttered many US wells and cancelled many plans to drill new ones. That lead to a precipitous drop in heavy equipment sales, which led to layoffs from America's heavy equipment companies - the kind of people who make industrial-sized oil pumps and the like.
Most of that manufacturing was in what is now Trump's base states.
The prosperous economy these days led many of those folks to get new jobs, so they weren't nearly as motivated to vote for the GOP in 2018.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:11PM
Except that the exact same dynamic accelerated a lot of other things. Shipping (including trucking, a major employer in the US) became cheaper. Other industries actively picked up because energy was cheaper. Net employment was rising in the runup to the election.
Cool story, but doesn't stand up to review.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:03AM (23 children)
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Do you believe in sovereignty? Do nations, or do nations not, have the right to determine their own path? In this case, a sovereign nation has decided to do something about one of it's own citizens or subjects who grew too annoying. On their own soil, they acted to eliminate that annoyance. What do we do about it? Nothing at all.
You're not happy with that conclusion?
Very well - let us take a peek down the rabbit hole. "The people" decide that it is not acceptable for a sovereign ruler to dispose of a problematic citizen. "The people" take action to punish that sovereign ruler. So - we boycott products from that nation? Or, we invade? Take that sovereign ruler, imprison him? Or execute him? Ohhhhh-kayyyy, problem solved, right? Except - precedent.
We have just opened Pandora's box, folks. AngleA Merkle may very well be next. Or, Queen Elizabeth. Trump. Putin. Any and all state leaders are now at risk of summary execution. There's a word for that - let me think here - oh yeah, "assassination".
Isn't there a case in history where some random asshole killed some other random asshole, thereby sparking a "World War"? And, didn't that world war conclude inconclusively, resulting in yet another world war, only a short generation later?
But, fuck that rabbit hole. Let's instead consider reality. The Sauds are part of the ruling class. The ruling class rules. If they want to dispose of you, or me, or any other random citizen, they do so. They don't have to justify jack shit to anyone. Oh - telephone, BRB. OK, gotta go folks. They've got the draft rolling, and I'm being called up to help with that drone program. What? No, I won't be operating any stupid drones. I just have to deliver them. Someone has to move them from the factory to the airfields, right? About the only way for me to get out of that is to lose my security clearance . . .
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:24AM (3 children)
What the fuck are you talking about? Khashoggi may have been a Saudi citizen, but he was a US resident and green card holder, he worked for a US paper, and he was murdered in Turkey.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:58AM (2 children)
"and he was murdered inside of a Saudi consulate."
FTFY. Khashoggi was murdered on Saudi soil. WTF does it matter who he worked for? What does it matter where he lived? He was still subject to his Saudi lords.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:00AM
Time for you to learn something dating from your childhood: an diplomat mission (embassy included) only has immunity from the receiving state, but is not a sovereign territory of the country establishing the mission [pathtoforeignservice.com].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 19 2018, @01:53AM
Making fun of the Clown Prince is unhealthy.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @03:13AM (1 child)
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:20AM
Well, I think that you are technically correct, but in practice, it's pretty gray. Found this article which goes into it a little deeper - https://pathtoforeignservice.com/is-an-embassy-on-foreign-soil-the-sovereign-territory-of-the-host-country-or-the-embassys-country/ [pathtoforeignservice.com] Just as is the case with Assange, no one goes barging into an embassy, unless they intend to start a war. Note the story about our embassy in China. People, presumably all civilians, threw trash and human waste at the embassy, but no one entered the embassy. Chinese police were present to ensure that plenty of insult was offered the US, but no real harm.
As a former military member, I was taught that certain places are, for all intents and purposes, sovereign territory of the US. Military bases, embassies, consulates, ships bearing the US flag, and the two square feet of soil upon which I stood, no matter where that soil might be. For our purposes, it wasn't necessary to be technically correct.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:01AM (5 children)
This is truly a comedy goldmine.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:44AM (4 children)
It's tragicomic at best. Runaway's nuts, and he's evil nuts, not harmless nuts. I can't bring myself to laugh at this.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:21AM (3 children)
That is part of the humor.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:17PM (2 children)
So you *like* being such a piteous wretched wreck of a human being that even someone with a sense of humor as dark as mine can't laugh at you? You're slipping further and further into insanity by the day.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:05PM (1 child)
It's amusing to know that your panties get all knotted up over nothing. You take life to seriously, you know.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:53PM
Ah, so you *are* nothing then. I've been saying that for a while, haven't I?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:35AM (4 children)
Do you believe in sovereignty?
Yes, of the individual, not the corrupt vassal state of its corporate financiers. If you were a true libertarian, you would believe the same thing.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:02AM (1 child)
Whatever gave you the impression that I'm a "true libertarian"? I have mentioned a few times that I have some libertarian leanings. I think of myself as more conservative than anything. And, yet, that political spectrum test tells me that I'm actually a little left of center. So, where does that leave us? I suspect that I'm not a "true libertarian".
As for sovereignty of the individual - why don't we go back in time. Let us go back to near pre-history, or maybe even pre-history. You are a sovereign being, and you don't have to answer to anyone for anything - except maybe your wife. You live in a village with a dozen, or a hundred other sovereign males, all masters of your own destiny. Some other monkey-like guys from over the mountain want to come into your village and tell you how things should be done. So, Sovereign Monkeyman - are you personally going to fend off all of those Round-the-mountain Monkeys, or do you band together with your fellow Local Monkeys? That is - do you establish the sovereignty of your village, or do you rely on your own individual sovereignty?
Careful now - your choice here may well decide your survival, and the survival of your mate, your children, and your fellow Local Monkeys.
Of course, if you die, you'll be replaced by some other monkeys that probably won't be as funny looking as you are. Your buck teeth, your ears sticking way out to here, silly looking crossed eyes, and those ridiculous chicken legs.
And,before you whine and cry about the choices - survival makes right. It's just that simple.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:28PM
People will defend you if you have earned their love and respect. There is no sovereignty without that. Then it's just war and pillaging. Only the predators will prevail which is simply how the universe functions, might makes right. It's the only way to survive. Contentment is death. Still, to be human is to respect absolute individual sovereignty (which still includes self defense), anything else is nothing more than animal savagery. And being sub-human, we can kill (the only good psychopath is a dead psychopath) and eat them as we see fit. Tastes like pork. Yummy!
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:18AM (1 child)
... I give him a cookie.
Anyone who wants to can be Sovereign provided they can defend themselves from those who feel they shouldn't be.
Go read up about Bloody Week in Paris: the Commune de Paris is widely credited with being history's first Communist nation - the Incas were Communist long before, likely there were other even older Communist societies. However the Communards failed to provide for their own self-defense.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:29PM
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:55PM (2 children)
Saudi Arabia was also likely responsible for the 9/11 attacks, which is an act of war. Sanctions are the least that could be done.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:54PM (1 child)
Saudis may have been the fall guys(hijackers) but the Mossad likely demolished the towers and building 7. both are US allies so let's not delude ourselves as to who gave them the fucking keys to the buildings.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 21 2018, @02:25AM
You're both wrong. Bert and Ernie did it. It was drunk driving.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:52PM (2 children)
What of rule of law, Runaway? Let's recall [soylentnews.org] what you wrote earlier:
In the vein of those questions, you support governments murdering their opponents when it is convenient? The difference is that these questions you bring are laws, written down and rigid rules that everyone is aware of. The "rules" that Kashoggi crossed are arbitrary and subject to whim.
This is a key difference between authoritarianism and everything else. To authoritarianism, the authority can do significant things that would normally be outside the law because it is the authority. Little to no further justification needs to be made. For everyone else, the authorities need to follow clear rules.
My view here is that Saudi Arabia doesn't have nor will ever have the right to murder its political opponents merely because they are opponents. But we're not even to that point. The Crown Prince is not Saudi Arabia. He can and in this case should be replaced in his role - assuming Saudi Arabia wants to continue with a monarchy, and then tried for his crimes in a fair court of law.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:49PM
The Crown Prince, or, the Heir Apparent, has acted in a manner pleasing to the current monarch, apparently. And, that's life under a monarchy. The rules are fickle, arbitrary, and capricious. The day that the Saudi Arabian people decide to change that, they will do so. Of course, that will probably mean that the House of Saud no longer rules, being replaced by some other fickle, arbitrary, and capricious asshole.
Also - it doesn't matter whether you or I recognize the right of the monarch to rule. It only matters whether the Saudis recognize that right. Obviously, enough Saudis recognize the king's rights and authorities that they keep him enthroned.
The prince may be a different story. Only time will tell.
One more thing. I've also referred to the US government committing similar acts. We don't usually send a hit team, these days. Instead, we just play some video games while we bide our time. When the time is right, we launch hellfire from the skies. I really don't see much difference between a hit team, or a drone strike.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 20 2018, @06:37PM
But I suppose murdering one journalist is a tragedy whereas bombed yemeni weddings and funerals are just statistics.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by corey on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:25AM (1 child)
I suspect this is a bit xenophobic. What about Myanmar who killed thousands of refugees? Venezuela? Syria?
Hell, even our govt in Australia has dumped a bunch of refugees on an island and a couple have died while in their care.
How many innocents have died due to US Govt actions?
I know Saudi has a very different and seemingly archaic society but need to keep things in check.
Personally, I don't believe the friendship is about arms sales and oil but rather local geopolitics in the M.E.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:08PM
Your whataboutism is atrocious. We don't have close relations with Venezuela or Syria, and we're certainly not helping those countries carry out a genocide, like Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen.
It's much worse than "seemingly archaic."
Yeah, dealing with middle eastern authoritarians has worked so well for us in the past! We're just playing 4d chess! It'll work out this time, guys!
(Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:02AM
While I would be all for that the problem might be that Saudi sits on and are responsible for something like 15ish percent of the worlds oil exports, what makes it even worse then for the "friends of Uncle Sam" is that the other exporters are more or less equally shady countries that are usually also in the Uncle Sams doghouse such as Russia (not very fun to be in NATO and be dependent on Russian oil). I guess Canada better start clubbing all the seals and get rid of all the freedom lovin' treehuggers cause they are going to have to ramp up production to fill the eventual gap if one is not to suck on the Saudi tap.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:18PM
I have been saying since the Gulf War that the best way to put a stop to Islamic terror, Middle Eastern dictatorships, and climate change in one happy blow would be for the USA to switch to renewable energy and its transportation to EVs. Deprive them of their oil income, and all the other problems fix themselves.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Demena on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:23PM
You are definitely short cortex if you thing that the USA has either the economic clout or the political clout to achieve anything except its own damage/demise by trying a course like that.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:28AM (6 children)
So the crown prince denies it, and Saudi Arabia is going to convict several people for Khashoggi's murder (five are facing the death penalty). It's amazing how the five who will be executed, as well as the others who will simply spend the rest of their lives in prison, are willing to suffer their fates just to protect the reputation of the crown prince. But it's all theater because the rest of the world still thinks the crown prince was behind it.
I suppose the real question is what fallout Saudi Arabia will suffer now that they are trying to construct plausible deniability? The US president loves Saudi Arabia so I doubt the US will do much of anything. The EU have more backbone, but they don't have many oil resources so they may not have the ability to hammer Saudi Arabia (unless they get further in bed with Russia's oil teat).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @03:19AM
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:09AM (3 children)
Or Iranian oil - not like the European retreated from the treaty with Iran.
Or they go and economically assist Algeria (you know? Just to stop those boats without sinking them), stabilize it and then enter in mutually beneficial trade agreements with it - I reckon the Italians would be happy to run some development projects in Algeria on European money, I hear Italy need some funds almost as bad as Greece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by quietus on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:04PM (2 children)
Might it be that you confuse Algeria [wikipedia.org] with Libya [libyaobserver.ly]?
As to Italy needing some funds almost as bad as Greece: the country has a nominal GDP of over two trillion [wikipedia.org] US dollars, or 31,984$ per capita [wikipedia.org] -- officially, i.e. not counting the 'irregular' economy.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:42PM
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:13PM
Yes, indeed Libya.
Italy - a deficit of 130% GDP [theguardian.com]? Or only 126% [bloomberg.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 19 2018, @01:58AM
My guess is that the five to be executed are the five that can tie MBS to the killing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:38AM (10 children)
This is a no-win situation for the US. No matter what action we take, it will not work out well.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Snotnose on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:18AM (9 children)
Much as I wanted to say "nu uh", I get what you're saying. My response? It's worth it. There was a story a week or two ago where an Indonesian housekeeper resisted a rape, and the rapist got killed. They hung her, without notifying her embassy.
This is a culture that needs to be stamped out ASAP. Frat boys on campus that gets wannabees drunk enough to die from alcohol poisoning at least have the defense of "but but but teenagers". Saudi Arabia doesn't have that defense. They have 40 year old dudes lucky enough to be born to the right parents, who decide to hang immigrants for fighting off a rape.
I've spent 40 years of my life wondering why we put up with SA, and was on the fence about them. But we've been able to replace their oil for a good 10 years so why the fuck do we put up with their bullshit?
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:55AM (5 children)
For whatever reason, Saudis back Clinton heavily. Trump may be trying to cut off a major source of Clinton's black-book sort of money.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by dry on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:15AM (4 children)
WTF? Saudi's back everyone. Bush grew up playing with the Bin laden's because his dad was such good friends with them. I'll take your word about Clinton. Trump is very friendly with the Saudi's, gets loans, his son in law hangs around with the Crown Prince. Earlier I haven't kept track but I wouldn't be surprised if Reagan got lots of support from them.
When they attacked Canada recently, it was interesting to note the silence from our allies, at that it seemed that the US administration was enabling it. The attack was over a Canadian Minister tweeting something about women's rights in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi's went ballistic over it, won't have anything to do with us besides buy arms. All Saudi citizens attending university ordered home, most contracts canceled. Silence from Canada's allies because, don't mess with the Saudi's.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:11AM
They hanged them both already? When?
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:22AM (1 child)
Obviously they have ties [denverpost.com], but is there a source on that? Such as a photo of George W. and a bin Laden playing with Lincoln logs in the late 1950s? Or did you mean something else?
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by dry on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:25PM
It looks like I was mistaken about their connections going quite that far back, or at least I can't find any evidence.
There is lots of evidence of the Bush and Bin Laden families connections as you found.
My point still stands that the Saudi's have been influential on American Presidents since Reagan at least. And it is a weird close relationship considering the different founding principles of the 2 nations with America seeming to attack all countries that the Saudi's don't like, often countries that are relatively secular.
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:07PM
>All of this historic crap that is almost completely missing the point, because Trump has not been a political player for more than 2 years
I think if you took a moment to look at the context in which the opinions you read are being expressed, you will find more meaning in them. Party-selected puppet politicians (of which all of those you listed are) have a different game to play than a complete and utter newcomer's whose party he is explicitly arm-twisting, using his grassroots support as his only leverage, into cooperation. Your rant about Canada is just flat-out misplaced. Canada, in a discussion taking place between the US, Saudi Arabia, China, Germany, etc - is like a kid interrupting a board meeting.
What do you want the US and the rest of the world to do about some limp-wristed shrill SJW Canadian Minister who isn't happy about the way things have been in the middle east for millenia? Start a world war? What, did they finally read a book on Islam and say, "WHOA! You mean they are forced to wear those black cloaks?!" and expect to be taken seriously? I don't care how fast you leap to the defense of women everywhere, your upvotes don't make your comment insightful or interesting. Note I'm not agreeing with Islam's treatment of women - I find it barbaric - I'm just asking you non-rhetorically what you expect people to do about changing SA on an international scale? Here's a hint: A "sternly written letter" from every ally the saud's have will literally not help at all, because they have enough money to flip off everyone else, so just pissing them off because some SJW in Canada was upset is not a useful thing for anyone to do. The world does not run on social justice, it runs on money - even though that is completely tragic and I wish it weren't so, that is the way it is. Even if you are the "Wokest bae" in the twitterverse, you will not go to work 90 hrs/week drilling oil to put gas in the grocery truck's tank to feed whoever you are tipping your fedora to online, so the rest of the world still has a use for not pissing off SA at every Canadian blogger's whim.
Trump has never taken this quantity of "donations" from these countries. Loans I could believe, but surely you understand the difference between a loan and a "charitable donation."
Trump demands Clinton Foundation return $25 million from Saudis
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/trump-clinton-foundation-224287 [politico.com]
"Although it did not give while she was secretary of state, the Saudi regime by itself has donated between $10 million and $25 million to the Clinton Foundation, with donations coming as late as 2014, as she prepared her presidential run. A group called “Friends of Saudi Arabia,” co-founded “by a Saudi Prince,” gave an additional amount between $1 million and $5 million. The Clinton Foundation says that between $1 million and $5 million was also donated by “the State of Qatar,” the United Arab Emirates, and the government of Brunei. “The State of Kuwait” has donated between $5 million and $10 million."
https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/why-did-the-saudi-regime-and-other-gulf-tyrannies-donate-millions-to-the-clinton-foundation/ [theintercept.com]
I could go on, but the Sauds specfically funded a HUGE portion of her 2016 campaign - her lead adviser Huma Abedin was on the SA government's fucking payroll for a time - while Trump got comparatively nil from them. Here, even better:
"Abedin’s mother, Saleha Abedin, is a sociology lecturer at Dar Al Hekma, a women’s college in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, where Clinton spoke to students on Feb. 16, 2010."
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/abedins-mom-made-sure-clintons-saudi-speech-omitted-freedom-and-driving-for-women-emails-show [foxnews.com]
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:42PM
Only now is there doubt about this sick (or should I say "oily"?) relationship that's made it into the pages of the mainstream media, and stayed there? Is it because this time, the victim is one of the media's own?
The fact that most of the perpetrators of 9/11 were Saudi citizens has been minimized and ignored as much as possible. And that's hardly the only problem. The US does way too much what could be overly kindly called unprincipled realpolitik but is often just sheer greed, and over and over, it comes back to haunt us. Over and over, the administration of the day too often makes some truly appallingly short-sighted and downright stupid decisions that should have been reviewed by others first, if only with just a bare sanity check.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:21PM
@ Snotnose: Ya i agree its worth taking action against them. Its still a bad situation, but sometimes it is worth the "sting", just to do the right thing. It may have been going on for generations, but at some point you just have to stand up and say no more.
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:16PM
No matter what their moral justifications are they're still violating Arabia's sovereignty by bypassing its justice system. I fear that they do it less to enforce justice and more to cement Arabia's position as a client state. Like there are worse injustices in the world in which US isn't interested at all.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:47AM (1 child)
How often does the CIA said something publicly that was later verified? What is their track record?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 20 2018, @06:26PM
On one hand they're world class experts in torture and kidnapping: https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/11/15/201234 [soylentnews.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_interrogation_techniques [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition [wikipedia.org]
But on the other hand they're a bunch of liars who can't be trusted. If it was some other country and the CIA said they did it, I'd be more inclined to believe it was a false flag, but it's Saudi Arabia.
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:47AM (2 children)
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/39462695/saudi-arabia-is-reducing-oil-supply-and-opec-may-cut-too [nbc-2.com]
https://www.longroom.com/discussion/1257087/russia-declines-to-join-opec-in-further-production-cuts [longroom.com]
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/15/trump-duped-saudis-into-tanking-oil-prices-analysts-say.html [cnbc.com]
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:54AM (1 child)
CNBC is awful, that article is literally nonsensical. Trump "bamboolzed" them when they did exactly what he was telling them to do in public?
You know what, I think I'm going back to not paying attention to politics. All the people involved are awful and the different factions never arrest each other for their crimes because they are all blackmailing each other. Then there is crap like that article that just hurts your brain to read it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 21 2018, @02:28AM
Sure. It can't be your fault if you don't vote..
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:47AM
i am curious if this "signals intelligence" was entangled.
had the turkish signal not been read would the cia signal still have been revealed?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @03:39AM (2 children)
Saudi culpability is not even a matter of dispute. The real issue is what Turkey's Erdogan is aiming to gain while driving the Saudis into the corner, and how will the US deal with Saudis while trying to corner Iran.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:00AM
Legitimacy. The Europeans don't like him much [bbc.com]; why. those pesky Europeans might even get ideas about those Kurds who managed to control ISIS.
On the other side... NATO, which Turky is a part of
My guess? The Turkish-style of islamism (as contrasted to the arabic styles) - something that's not related to sunni or shi'a. The Turks can claim no relation with t Muhammad, thus they need to dispense of this issue of this relation.
That's an interesting one indeed.
MIC has, in Saudis, a paying platinum-level customer - losing it would mean they'll need another market, fast. Some US-Iran skirmishes would do - but then, why drop Saudis, they are a strong opposer of Iran anyway (same is Israel, except the latter are as advanced and almost independent on the US MIC
On the oil industry, the Saudis and US are frenemies - US oil can't sell if the fracking cost aren't covered. so Saudis need to put a cap on oil price/artificial scarcity or else they'll lose control of the market.
Note that the oil industry does good on the stock market when the oil prices are high
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:15PM
SURPRISE! ANNOUNCING THE AXIS OF ISLAMISTS & THUGS: Qatar offers formation of new coalition in region | Iraq, Iran, Qatar, Turkey and Syria. [twitter.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:47AM
http://www.independentsentinel.com/cia-did-not-conclude-saudis-crown-prince-ordered-khashoggis-murder/ [independentsentinel.com]
"The Washington Post, the New York Times, CNN and the Wall Street Journal reported that anonymous sources said..."
Just more BS from the usual suspects.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:54AM (12 children)
So what? The CIA is not a law enforcement agency and would have no jurisdiction in Saudi even if they were, so who gives two shits what they concluded?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Whoever on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:27AM (4 children)
Yeah, we already know that facts don't matter to you.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:24AM (3 children)
Nice strawman but no. Right or wrong is not the point I was trying to make. That this is essentially no different than whatever passes for the British DMV saying the same thing is.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Monday November 19 2018, @03:26AM (2 children)
Ah, typical TMB, deny and run away when challenged. Perhaps I should remind you what you wrote:
Now, let's put this into context that the CIA is not, as you correctly pointed out, a law enforcement agency, which has absolutely no relevance to the issue of whether MBS ordered the killing or not; nor is it relevant to questions of the CIA's accuracy. Perhaps you might want to investigate what the "I" in "CIA" stands for.
As I stated, facts don't matter to you. In this case, the fact of whether MBS ordered the killing or not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 21 2018, @02:32AM
Does the I in CIA stand for the same kind of I as the I in AI?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday November 21 2018, @10:45AM
You mean the same agency that brought us your favorite "Iraq has WMDs"? You're having a very bad day for intellectual honesty.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:50AM (2 children)
Hilarious! Jurisdiction and CIA in the same sentence.
Spooks are recruited specifically to work (read 'spy') in places where more traditional agencies have no jurisdiction.
Although the public information already available could of told anyone who gave the order. Saudi citizen with an American green card working for an American company slaughtered in Turkey, a cleaning team shows up BEFORE investigators, Saudis story changes over and over again. That is some state sponsored shit there. And from the House of Saud, that could only be an order from the highest level as IMHO their 'government' is run more like the Mafia. And they just offed a made man. Now we find out if he's equivalent to the Teflon Don, The way palace intrigue has played out there in the past, and considering Muslim justice, he may find a knife in his back soon for bringing too much attention to their barbaric actions. It could of been so much cleaner, plane going down, hell, even some polonium (then they could blame Russia)..but hacked up and dissolved? Barbaric and brings way too much attention as it points a bloodied sword right at the Saudis.
You're right of course, they are not law-enforcement, law enforcement would have to be invited to join an investigation. This is why we've got spooks in the first place. Jurisdiction has little meaning to spies.
I wonder who has the movie rights.....
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:30AM (1 child)
You'd need a pot about the size of an oil drum or several ordinarily-large soup pots.
There is no doubt in my mind that boiling human flesh and bones smells quite good, and would be tasty with celery, potatoes and onions.
The flavor of meat-flavored soups comes mostly from bone marrow so you wouldn't have wanted to slice Kashoggi's muscles off his bones, rather you'd want to boil them together until the meat can be separated from the bones then broken up with a couple forks.
Like the hamhock in the burrito beans that I had for supper earlier this evening.
YUM!
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:11PM
Is this your most frequently used tactic for survival? And are you sharing that recipe from personal experience?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:46PM (3 children)
Out of curiosity, is it interesting to you whether the Saudi Crown Prince ordered the murder of a political opponent and got caught due to sloppiness? Sounds like interesting news to me, particularly since it absolutely wrecks the Prince's public image as a reformer. Might also mean the end of the Saudi monarchy.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:59PM (2 children)
Not particularly. I'm pretty sure he could stomp puppies on live TV and little to nothing would change there or here.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday November 18 2018, @03:03PM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:39PM
In which case, I'll be duly surprised.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.