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posted by martyb on Sunday August 16 2020, @10:26PM   Printer-friendly
from the NAND-has-MLC-and-QLC-so-why-not-RAM? dept.

Micron Spills on GDDR6X: PAM4 Signaling For Higher Rates, Coming to NVIDIA's RTX 3090

It would seem that Micron this morning has accidentally spilled the beans on the future of graphics card memory technologies – and outed one of NVIDIA's next-generation RTX video cards in the process. In a technical brief that was posted to their website, dubbed "The Demand for Ultra-Bandwidth Solutions", Micron detailed their portfolio of high-bandwidth memory technologies and the market needs for them. Included in this brief was information on the previously-unannounced GDDR6X memory technology, as well as some information on what seems to be the first card to use it, NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 3090.

[...] At any rate, as this is a market overview rather than a technical deep dive, the details on GDDR6X are slim. The document links to another, still-unpublished document, "Doubling I/O Performance with PAM4: Micron Innovates GDDR6X to Accelerate Graphics Memory", that would presumably contain further details on GDDR6X. None the less, even this high-level overview gives us a basic idea of what Micron has in store for later this year.

The key innovation for GDDR6X appears to be that Micron is moving from using POD135 coding on the memory bus – a binary (two state) coding format – to four state coding in the form of Pulse-Amplitude Modulation 4 (PAM4). In short, Micron would be doubling the number of signal states in the GDDR6X memory bus, allowing it to transmit twice as much data per clock.

[...] According to Micron's brief, they're expecting to get GDDR6X to 21Gbps/pin, at least to start with. This is a far cry from doubling GDDR6's existing 16Gbps/pin rate, but it's also a data rate that would be grounded in the limitations of PAM4 and DRAM. PAM4 itself is easier to achieve than binary coding at the same total data rate, but having to accurately determine four states instead of two is conversely a harder task. So a smaller jump isn't too surprising.

The leaked Ampere-based RTX 3090 seems to be Nvidia's attempt to compete with AMD's upcoming RDNA2 ("Big Navi") GPUs without lowering the price of the usual high-end "Titan" GPU (Titan RTX launched at $2,499). Here are some of the latest leaks for the RTX 30 "Ampere" GPU lineup.

Also at Guru3D and Wccftech.

Previously: GDDR5X Standard Finalized by JEDEC
SK Hynix to Begin Shipping GDDR6 Memory in Early 2018
Samsung Announces Mass Production of GDDR6 SDRAM

Related: PCIe 6.0 Announced for 2021: Doubles Bandwidth Yet Again (uses PAM4)

Original Submission

Related Stories

GDDR5X Standard Finalized by JEDEC 17 comments

JEDEC has finalized the GDDR5X SGRAM specification:

The new technology is designed to improve bandwidth available to high-performance graphics processing units without fundamentally changing the memory architecture of graphics cards or memory technology itself, similar to other generations of GDDR, although these new specifications are arguably pushing the phyiscal[sic] limits of the technology and hardware in its current form. The GDDR5X SGRAM (synchronous graphics random access memory) standard is based on the GDDR5 technology introduced in 2007 and first used in 2008. The GDDR5X standard brings three key improvements to the well-established GDDR5: it increases data-rates by up to a factor of two, it improves energy efficiency of high-end memory, and it defines new capacities of memory chips to enable denser memory configurations of add-in graphics boards or other devices. What is very important for developers of chips and makers of graphics cards is that the GDDR5X should not require drastic changes to designs of graphics cards, and the general feature-set of GDDR5 remains unchanged (and hence why it is not being called GDDR6).

[...] The key improvement of the GDDR5X standard compared to the predecessor is its all-new 16n prefetch architecture, which enables up to 512 bit (64 Bytes) per array read or write access. By contrast, the GDDR5 technology features 8n prefetch architecture and can read or write up to 256 bit (32 Bytes) of data per cycle. Doubled prefetch and increased data transfer rates are expected to double effective memory bandwidth of GDDR5X sub-systems. However, actual performance of graphics cards will depend not just on DRAM architecture and frequencies, but also on memory controllers and applications. Therefore, we will need to test actual hardware to find out actual real-world benefits of the new memory.

What purpose does GDDR5X serve if superior 1st and 2nd generation High Bandwidth Memory (HBM) are around? GDDR5X memory will be cheaper than HBM and its use is more of an evolutionary than revolutionary change from existing GDDR5-based hardware.

Original Submission

SK Hynix to Begin Shipping GDDR6 Memory in Early 2018 20 comments

SK Hynix is almost ready to produce GDDR6 memory with higher than expected per-pin bandwidth:

In a surprising move, SK Hynix has announced its first memory chips based on the yet-unpublished GDDR6 standard. The new DRAM devices for video cards have capacity of 8 Gb and run at 16 Gbps per pin data rate, which is significantly higher than both standard GDDR5 and Micron's unique GDDR5X format. SK Hynix plans to produce its GDDR6 ICs in volume by early 2018.

GDDR5 memory has been used for top-of-the-range video cards for over seven years, since summer 2008 to present. Throughout its active lifespan, GDDR5 increased its data rate by over two times, from 3.6 Gbps to 9 Gbps, whereas its per chip capacities increased by 16 times from 512 Mb to 8 Gb. In fact, numerous high-end graphics cards, such as NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 1060 and 1070, still rely on the GDDR5 technology, which is not going anywhere even after the launch of Micron's GDDR5X with up to 12 Gbps data rate per pin in 2016. As it appears, GDDR6 will be used for high-end graphics cards starting in 2018, just two years after the introduction of GDDR5X.

Previously: Samsung Announces Mass Production of HBM2 DRAM
DDR5 Standard to be Finalized by JEDEC in 2018

Original Submission

Samsung Announces Mass Production of GDDR6 SDRAM 16 comments

Samsung has announced the mass production of 16 Gb GDDR6 SDRAM chips with a higher-than-expected pin speed. The chips could see use in upcoming graphics cards that are not equipped with High Bandwidth Memory:

Samsung has beaten SK Hynix and Micron to be the first to mass produce GDDR6 memory chips. Samsung's 16Gb (2GB) chips are fabricated on a 10nm process and run at 1.35V. The new chips have a whopping 18Gb/s pin speed and will be able to reach a transfer rate of 72GB/s. Samsung's current 8Gb (1GB) GDDR5 memory chips, besides having half the density, work at 1.55V with up to 9Gb/s pin speeds. In a pre-CES 2018 press release, Samsung briefly mentioned the impending release of these chips. However, the speed on release is significantly faster than the earlier stated 16Gb/s pin speed and 64GB/s transfer rate.

18 Gbps exceeds what the JEDEC standard calls for.

Also at Engadget and Wccftech.

Related: GDDR5X Standard Finalized by JEDEC
DDR5 Standard to be Finalized by JEDEC in 2018
SK Hynix to Begin Shipping GDDR6 Memory in Early 2018
Samsung's Second Generation 10nm-Class DRAM in Production

Original Submission

PCIe 6.0 Announced for 2021: Doubles Bandwidth Yet Again 9 comments

PCI Express Bandwidth to Be Doubled Again: PCIe 6.0 Announced, Spec to Land in 2021

When the PCI Special Interest Group (PCI-SIG) first announced PCIe 4.0 a few years back, the group made it clear that they were not just going to make up for lost time after PCI 3.0, but that they were going to accelerate their development schedule to beat their old cadence. Since then the group has launched the final versions of the 4.0 and 5.0 specifications, and now with 5.0 only weeks old, the group is announcing today that they are already hard at work on the next version of the PCIe specification, PCIe 6.0. True to PCIe development iteration, the forthcoming standard will once again double the bandwidth of a PCIe slot – a x16 slot will now be able to hit a staggering 128GB/sec – with the group expecting to finalize the standard in 2021.

[...] PCIe 6.0, in turn, is easily the most important/most disruptive update to the PCIe standard since PCIe 3.0 almost a decade ago. To be sure, PCIe 6.0 remains backwards compatible with the 5 versions that have preceded it, and PCIe slots aren't going anywhere. But with PCIe 4.0 & 5.0 already resulting in very tight signal requirements that have resulted in ever shorter trace length limits, simply doubling the transfer rate yet again isn't necessarily the best way to go. Instead, the PCI-SIG is going to upend the signaling technology entirely, moving from the Non-Return-to-Zero (NRZ) tech used since the beginning, and to Pulse-Amplitude Modulation 4 (PAM4).

[...] PCIe 6.0 will be able to reach anywhere between ~8GB/sec for a x1 slot up to ~128GB/sec for a x16 slot (e.g. accelerator/video card). For comparison's sake, 8GB/sec is as much bandwidth as a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot, so over the last decade and a half, the number of lanes required to deliver that kind of bandwidth has been cut to 1/16th the original amount.

Previously: PCIe 4.0 to be Available This Year, PCIe 5.0 in 2019
Version 0.9 of the PCI Express 5.0 Specification Ratified
PCIe 5.0 Specification Finalized (yes, that was 3 weeks ago)

Original Submission

Nvidia Announces RTX 30-Series "Ampere" GPUs 14 comments

Nvidia has announced its latest generation of gaming-oriented GPUs, based on the "Ampere" microarchitecture on a customized Samsung "8nm" process node.

The GeForce RTX 3080 ($700) has 10 GB of GDDR6X VRAM and will be released on September 17. TDP is up significantly, at 320 Watts compared to 215 Watts for the RTX 2080. The GeForce RTX 3070 ($500) has 8 GB of GDDR6 and a TDP of 220 Watts. The GeForce RTX 3090 ($1500) is the top card so far with a whopping 24 GB of GDDR6X VRAM. The GPU is physically much larger than the other two models and it has a 350 Watt TDP.

Nvidia's performance benchmarks should be treated with caution, since the company is often using ray-tracing and/or DLSS upscaling in its comparisons. But the RTX 3070 will outperform the RTX 2080 Ti at less than half the launch price, as it has 35% more CUDA cores at higher clock speeds.

Nvidia also announced some new features such as Nvidia Reflex (4m53s video), Broadcast, Omniverse Machinima, and RTX IO. Nvidia Broadcast includes AI-derived tools intended for live streamers. RTX Voice can filter out background noises, greenscreen effects can be applied without the need for a real greenscreen, and an autoframing feature can keep the streamer centered in frame while they are moving. Nvidia RTX IO appears to be Nvidia's response to the next-generation consoles' use of fast SSDs and dedicated data decompression.

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 30 Series | Official Launch Event (39m29s video)

Previously: Micron Accidentally Confirms GDDR6X Memory, and Nvidia's RTX 3090 GPU

Original Submission

Amazon's "New World" Game Beta Reportedly Bricked Nvidia RTX 3090 GPUs 37 comments

Amazon's New World game is bricking GeForce RTX 3090 graphics cards:

It is probably not a good idea to play New World right now. The closed Beta and Alpha builds of this game have reportedly been a reason for the bricking of GeForce RTX 3090 graphics cards, multiple users on the official game's forum have reported.

The issue appears to affect mainly GeForce RTX 3090 graphics cards which are reportedly overheating and see power spikes. The game has an uncapped framerate in the main menus, which is usually associated with buzzing capacitors. Most users however have reported that EVGA RTX 3090 cards specifically are the most affected brand. A number of the RTX 3090 cards have been bricked in the process.

[...] Update: Amazon Games released the following statement:

Hundreds of thousands of people played in the New World Closed Beta yesterday, with millions of total hours played. We've received a few reports of players using high-performance graphics cards experiencing hardware failure when playing New World.

New World makes standard DirectX calls as provided by the Windows API. We have seen no indication of widespread issues with 3090s, either in the beta or during our many months of alpha testing.

The New World Closed Beta is safe to play. In order to further reassure players, we will implement a patch today that caps frames per second on our menu screen. We're grateful for the support New World is receiving from players around the world, and will keep listening to their feedback throughout Beta and beyond.

New World (video game).

See also: Issues with EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra
r/newworldgame - Did the New World Beta brick your gpu?

Related: Micron Accidentally Confirms GDDR6X Memory, and Nvidia's RTX 3090 GPU
Nvidia Announces RTX 30-Series "Ampere" GPUs
Linux Foundation and Partners Announce "Open 3D Foundation"

Original Submission #1Original Submission #2Original Submission #3

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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:00PM (15 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:00PM (#1037640)

    Micron is one of the Big Three of memory chip makers, the other two being Samsung and SK Hynix, South Korean outfits.

    Initially, American outfits owned the field, but then got ass-raped by the Japanese firms in the 80s/90s, and then South Koreans firms ass-raped everyone (i.e., the Japanese - Intel left it due to low margin compared to their processor chip business), but Micron is still standing.

    The thing about memory chip business is scale, much more so than processor/specialty chips.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by takyon on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:22PM

      by takyon (881) <> on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:22PM (#1037647) Journal

      Samsung dominates the market the last time I checked, and is alleged to have used its smartphone business to drive up demand. Put 1 TB of NAND and 16 GB of DRAM in a Samsung Galaxy smartphone, and every other smartphone maker follows (eventually), buying the chips from Samsung.

      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 []
    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:54PM (12 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:54PM (#1037655) Journal

      Define "ass-raped". If we may step back in time just a little bit, Japanese cars were built to much higher tolerances than US made cars. Japanese cars were built much cheaper than union made cars in America. The Japanese often took American technology, and improved on it, substantially. The 6 cylinder engine in Toyota Land Cruisers started life as Chevrolet engines, and the Japanese made them more powerful, more fuel efficient, and longer lasting. I really don't think that "ass-raped" is the proper term here.

      Being a motorcycle guy, I can tell you that in the '80's you could buy a full dress street bike from Japan for about half the price of a barebones, stripped down American built motorcycle.

      If the Koreans out-efficiencied the Japanese, well, so be it. That still isn't an "ass-rape".

      What China has been doing for the past 40 years is more akin to an "ass-rape" of the US, than the development of computer technology has been.

      • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:08AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:08AM (#1037661)

        Runaway: expert on guns, bikes and... ass-raping.

      • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:15AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:15AM (#1037665)

        Wipe the floor, took them to the cleaner, clean the clock, etc. etc.

        No argument that Japanese industry totally outperformed American (nevermind the pathetic European) industries. And the South Korean outfits pulled "the Japanese" on the Japanese.

        As for the Chinese, that, too, I am in full agreement.

        You know, Trump has banned TikTok in America? Chicom has been doing that shit as long as ... even today! You can't run a company in China without a Chinese partner owning the majority stake, the "partner" that must bootlick CCP.

        Free Hong Kong!
        Free Tibet!
        Free Uighurs!

        Fuck CCP!

        Taiwan Numbah Won!


      • (Score: 3, Funny) by jasassin on Monday August 17 2020, @12:17AM (3 children)

        by jasassin (3566) <> on Monday August 17 2020, @12:17AM (#1037666) Homepage Journal

        Define "ass-raped".

        To forcibly thrust your penis in and out of an unwilling victims asshole.

        -- GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @03:14PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @03:14PM (#1037835)

          Is it still ass-rape if the person was already dead when you found them?

          • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday August 17 2020, @05:25PM (1 child)

            by Freeman (732) on Monday August 17 2020, @05:25PM (#1037938) Journal

            Inability to give consent = rape. You're just including a Necrophilia aspect to it.

            Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 18 2020, @05:35AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 18 2020, @05:35AM (#1038216)

              Just to be clear, that's bad right?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by krishnoid on Monday August 17 2020, @12:31AM (2 children)

        by krishnoid (1156) on Monday August 17 2020, @12:31AM (#1037676)

        Toyota embraced W. Edwards Deming's quality control methods [] after WWII when American manufacturers were making enough money to ignore the recommendations he brought them (first), being one of the only countries that hadn't been devastated.

        Considering how US manufacturing rejected that kind of process improvement out of choice, I don't know what the corresponding term would be. It would have to work in "vision all the way to the end of next quarter", though.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:40AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:40AM (#1037679)

          After WWII, about the only standing, functioning, industrialized country was America. America had zero foreign competition.

          So what happens? We have no foreigners to fight/compete against, so we fight among ourselves. Management vs Union.

          Once others, basically the Japanese and Europeans, caught up, we were, like, it's the management fault, it's the union's fault, so on and so forth.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @09:18AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @09:18AM (#1037768)

          That, exactly, so I'll add another +1 insightful to your post.

      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 17 2020, @12:35AM (2 children)

        by RS3 (6367) on Monday August 17 2020, @12:35AM (#1037677)

        Stole tech know-how; IP. The only reason they've done so well is due to combination of 1) desperation after WW2, 2) W. Edwards Deming [], and 3) cultural values (which include taking pride in workmanship and quality).

        • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday August 18 2020, @01:37AM (1 child)

          by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday August 18 2020, @01:37AM (#1038159)

          My understanding was that the pride in workmanship and quality was actually cultivated (though not instilled) and made implementably manifest by applying Shewhart/Deming's processes during the rebuilding effort. My understanding was that "Made in Japan" was actually a mark of poor quality prior to WWII/his arrival.

          It's preposterous on its face that one person could transform an entire country in this way, but I can't find other direct references to what produced such trans-WWII changes in Japanese design, engineering, and manufacturing, especially after WWII, especially considering it was previously ruled by an Emperor.

          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday August 18 2020, @03:37AM

            by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday August 18 2020, @03:37AM (#1038186)

            Japanese people / culture is very interesting. For one they have great unity / cohesiveness. My hunch is they were very ready for anything to help them after WW2.

            It's preposterous on its face that one person...

            Interesting how our egos (we all have) want to believe what we reason as being more true than reality.

            My very clear memory of things "Made in Japan" is that they were cheap junk. So like 1950s-1970s. So it took a long time to significantly incorporate Shewhart/Deming's philosophies.

    • (Score: 2) by shortscreen on Monday August 17 2020, @05:13AM

      by shortscreen (2252) on Monday August 17 2020, @05:13AM (#1037740) Journal

      In the mid '80s the US government setup a consortium to give domestic firms a boost, and got Japan to agree to limit exports of DRAM. [] []

      It was also around this time that there was a big change in the dollars-to-yen exchange rate. []

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:46AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @12:46AM (#1037682)

    Free Hong Kong!
    Free Tibet!
    Free Uighurs!

    Fuck CCP!

    Taiwan Numbah Won!

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @01:05AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @01:05AM (#1037685)

      Agnes Chow, not only pretty, but brave, courageous.

      Remarkable comparison, between someone like her and millenial social justice warriors.

      Stop raiding Target Stores.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @10:38AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @10:38AM (#1037781)

    Modems could not get above the 2400 buad - since they were single bit to single code. Then they started to "multiplex" getting to 28.8k buad (12 bits to single code), so the rate was still 2400 codes per second. 56k buad came from digital connection on the other end and knowing this fact, Hence the receiving signal only trans versed analog wire once.

    They have hit simular speed limits in Fibre cables, so polorizing the light, or "twisting" the single allows for more codes to cross at the same time. Hence increasing capisty without new types of fibre.

    Now they have hit a similar wall in bus speeds. Right near the maximum rate the wire can actually carry, so the only choose is to change the encoding. Now my better once 4 bit encoding to a code is stable, with-in 5 years 16 bit encoding will be stable. or around 256Gbps/pin.

    Boy, the cross talk will be bad!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @03:17PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17 2020, @03:17PM (#1037837)

      > Boy, the cross talk will be bad!

      Maybe but think of the marketing potential!

  • (Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 18 2020, @06:18AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 18 2020, @06:18AM (#1038231)

    Marissa Van Eck FAKENAME NIGGER CUNT Azuma Hazuki: So "that was NOT me posting" [] which YES, you said when you LIBELED me publicly BEFORE it with YOU saying "So that's a "yes" to schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder and a "no" to "am taking meds for said disorder" LIBELING ME then...?" per YOUR [] you stupid pitiful FAKENAME fuck online LIAR piece of fucking SHIT NIGGER?


    Was it when I GOT YOUR REAL NAME & found you are a satanist/anti-god HERE [] also which most ALL you "LEFTIST" LOSER weirdos usually are (which YES, in THIS other exchange "Why do you assume that you finding discussion threads on other sites with me in them will scare me?" quoted from [] you DID admit FINALLY to saying it was you - ESPECIALLY AFTER dozens of doctors RECENTLY seconded me on Hydroxychloroquin + Zinc (& Vitamin D3 imo along w/ other things I noted that are anti-viral + antibacterial like RAW GARLIC too)).

    Do me a favor - DENY ANY OF THOSE, please & I will continue PROVING YOU ARE A NIGGER SHITBAG LOSER, devil... as I already DID here []

    The TRUE BEAUTY of SATANIST FUCKS like YOU (antigod assholes)? TRUTH & FACT DESTROYS LIBELOUS DEVILS LIKE YOU - just like I did you & OTHER AHOLES who doubted what I wrote on what is NOW PROVEN TRUE by DOCTORS, admitted in mainstream media etc. (as I showed in those links' exchanges above easily) & especially LATELY by DOZENS of doctors (I have proof from pros - NOT LIBEL like you did to me PUBLICLY & I can still FRY YOU FOR IT FUCKER, live in fear fuck) MINUS any psych pros backing you.

    SAY 1 THING, YOU STINKING LIBELOUS NIGGER FUCK & I will CONTINUE LEVELLING YOU PUBLICLY with facts - not libel as you tried on me, stupid "Marissa von DUMBO", lol - please, say 1 thing & the BEATING on you, PUBLICLY will continue in this thread where you will have a HELL of a TIME "downmod burying it" via downmod brigades doubtless ONLY yourself via multiple sockpuppet accounts etc. (downodding to HIDE it? FORGET IT vs. me - everyone sees you @ it now, lol - thanks, just as I SAID "your kind", demonic SWINE/antigod LOSERS, always do).


    TOUGH HIDING YOU LIED about LIBELING ME, especially via INHERENTLY DAMAGING STATEMENTS libeling me as you did see GOLDWATER RULE below too fuckface CUNT you are (wikipedia proof [] & you said "No jury or judge would back it" here [] Ok - like I said earlier here which you TRIED TO DOWNMOD HIDE as I knew you HAVE to (everyone sees it anyhow) - TRY ME FUCKER - say 1 thing you COWARDLY STUPID LITTLE FUCK & we'll SEE what happens to you, fuckface CUNT you are).

    As I said "DO YOU WANT TO BE SUED" for breaking the GOLDWATER RULE? See here again [] for YOUR (& everyone else's) reference of YOUR LIBEL of myself


    P.S.=> Oh, I am going to have a FIELDDAY on YOUR ASS fucker - catching you not ONLY IN LIES above, but also in the fact you are a GODLESS fucking LOSER - come on, say something, question the above where you LIED fucker ("it was not me saying it" but it WAS in those links calling me a nutcase essentially when YOU SAID YOU DID NOT (because it IS grounds for SUING THE LIFE OUT OF YOUR WORTHLESS ASS because your statements are NOT BACKED BY actual psychiatric pros in professional psychiatric grounds LIBELING ME)) - oh, you are NEVER going to LIVE THIS DOWN & believe you me - I am going to MAKE SURE you don't - live with your HUMILIATION loser... apk